HELP... PIONEER ELITE or ONKYO - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 33 Old 07-15-2012, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi. I have been a Pioneer fan for the last 10 years, I have owned the ELITE VSX49tx-i flagship model then upgraded to the SC-09tx. I want to upgrade to a new reciever and was thinking either the PIONEER ELITE SC-67 or making the move to ONKYO.

I have a dedicated THEATER room and only care about watching blue ray movies and playing video games. I dont care about streaming and i-pod and i-phone stuff. I care about the quality of picture and sound.

I was thinking on moving away from pioneer cause it seems they are going either down hill with there products or I guess there following the market with all this streaming and i-pad ****. A flagship reciever for $2000.00 and weighs 30lbs what a joke.

Anyways I was wondering should I upgrade to the new SC-67 or go to a different reciever, or maybe I should just keep the sc-09tx. Would I notice a difference going to a new reciever compaired to the sc-09tx.

Thanks
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post #2 of 33 Old 07-15-2012, 12:53 PM
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They are both great receiver choices but I would go with the Onkyo! I have compared AVR's.....Pioneer Elite, Harmon Kardon, Denon, Yamaha, etc...... and none of them come close to the Onkyo sound and power IMO!!!
Onkyo's are beasts of Receivers and even the lower end models have massive weight compared to others! The flagship models are pushing close to 60 pounds!!!
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post #3 of 33 Old 07-15-2012, 12:54 PM
 
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Being a Denon/Marantz guy for years, I'm no good helping you pick either Onkyo or Pioneer. I can suggest, based on your above, to check out online pricing of last years models or referbs. And to get the best delivered price possible, give some of the online shops a call and let them know you're shopping for the best possible delivered price.

My last purchases have been with B&H and Vann's. Crutchfield and Accessories4less are popular also.

Hope the above helps.
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post #4 of 33 Old 07-15-2012, 01:04 PM
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I am looking for either an Onkyo TX-NR818 or last year's Onkyo TX-NR3009. The Denon AVR-4311CI is also getting mentioned a lot over here, so I may consider that one, too. I am leaning towards the 3009. I currently own an 11 year old Onkyo TX-DS989 upgraded to Version 2 that I am thinking of replacing.

HD-A1 + XBOX Add-On + PS3 = Format Neutral
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post #5 of 33 Old 07-15-2012, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-713 View Post

Hi. I have been a Pioneer fan for the last 10 years, I have owned the ELITE VSX49tx-i flagship model then upgraded to the SC-09tx. I want to upgrade to a new reciever and was thinking either the PIONEER ELITE SC-67 or making the move to ONKYO.
I have a dedicated THEATER room and only care about watching blue ray movies and playing video games. I dont care about streaming and i-pod and i-phone stuff. I care about the quality of picture and sound.
I was thinking on moving away from pioneer cause it seems they are going either down hill with there products or I guess there following the market with all this streaming and i-pad ****. A flagship reciever for $2000.00 and weighs 30lbs what a joke.
Anyways I was wondering should I upgrade to the new SC-67 or go to a different reciever, or maybe I should just keep the sc-09tx. Would I notice a difference going to a new reciever compaired to the sc-09tx.
Thanks

If i-pad and i-phone stuff is not interesting for you I can understand that, same for me. But if sound quality is important (especially being a lucky devil smile.gif having a separate dedicated HT room) and you are almost about to jump ship from Pioneer then I would recommend you to look into the world of digital room correction solutions, if you haven't done so yet!. IMHO today the most sophisticated RC system available on the market for affordable AVRs/AVPs is Audyssey's. It has a line of implementations. I would stay away from the version 2EQ, coz it just lacks correction of the subwoofer channel (BTW same as Pioneers lack it!!), but would look into higher versions (MultEQ, MultEQ XT, MultEQ XT 32). If your not on a budget a flagship Onkyo or Denon will surely change the way you ever thought about the world of acoustics.
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post #6 of 33 Old 07-15-2012, 04:06 PM
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there are many of us who have owned "flagship" pio equipment (fwiw, regardless of their marketing prose, i wouldn't consider anything they sell now a "flagship") who have switched to a denon 4311 and haven't looked back...

fwiw... the marketplace is demanding those features that you don't want... just ignore the fact that they are there, and you'll be fine... wink.gif

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post #7 of 33 Old 07-15-2012, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Are u talking about the Audio Calabration eq on the recievers or a pro setup? I am in the process with Alourex and getting some room treatment installed. Those auto calabration things dont usually work that great.
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post #8 of 33 Old 07-15-2012, 06:28 PM
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^^^

you might want to research "those autocalibration things" a bit more...

- chris

 

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post #9 of 33 Old 07-16-2012, 11:33 AM
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I would not consider Onkyo right now... Ever since the x05 series (2006?), Onkyo has been having a constant stream of issues with their receivers... The first few years (5,6,7 series) were having a LOT of HDMI board failures due to heat issues drying out the caps on the HDMI boards. Then there was the faulty IDE connectors with some sort of coating on the boards shorting it out. Then the wonky non response of the remote controllers. Last year models had a string of faulty manufacturing issues and had to be recalled. My 905 and 906 both had HDMI board failures and Onkyo wants $1000 for each HDMI board, or they can repair the board for $300. I had them repaired (shipping from Hawaii is on my tab, and it is very expensive to send a 50+ lb box, over couple of hundred dollars) but after a year, the same boards failed again.

If it's not a BIG screen, it's not a theater...
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post #10 of 33 Old 07-16-2012, 12:25 PM
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Is an SC-55 for $1050 a good deal? In the store right now!
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post #11 of 33 Old 07-16-2012, 07:09 PM
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TK

Before you decide to jump, consider carefully what you're giving up to gain something new. For example, for their latest announced $3000 top model, Onkyo has ripped out all the analog multichannel inputs. Just plain removed them! Other than HDMI, they have fewer I/O's than any of the competitive models on the market, including the SC-68, 67 and the Denon 4311. IOW, reduced the cost while raising the selling price eek.gif Would you be happy with that? Those are some of the issues facing you besides audyssey vs mcacc in going to the newest Onkyo. And for that, all you gain with the new Onkyo over their current top model is NeoX & 4K pass-thru of which there is no real content and won't be for a long time.

IMHO, without any reviews yet, Onkyo's new flagship looks to be a step backwards compared to their current top model in some respects. Even the preview I read at Audioholics noted this aspect - less I/O's than current model and less than other companies are providing, including Pioneer & Denon. However, the upcoming Denon 4520 is an unknown, won't be announced until Sept time frame, so Denon may also be going down the same road.

Plus, you have the well-documented Onkyo lack of customer service and variety of reliability issues over the years. That is one thing you can say about Pioneer - overall they have been very stable, reliable gear, especially the 09.

You all know my posting history. I've been a Pio enthusiast for years but I also try very hard to retain objectivity and carefully compare models from the different mfgs. But that's just me. I won't argue about audyssey vs mcacc here since that topic has been covered a whole lot - we all know the issues.

IF I had to make a change from my SC-09 and do it this summer, I would go SC-68, Denon 4311 or Denon 4520.

And I hope you aren't swayed by the posts on weight rolleyes.gif Class D amps will obviously weigh less than the class A/B amps.

My final thought in this post is - if you don't care about i-****, streaming, 3D etc. then what would be the compelling reason for thinking of changing: height/width channels, audyssey vs mcacc & sub EQ, getting PQLS equivalent on HDMI or ???

I'll pm you tomorrow AM with added thoughts from my own 1 year agonizing over this same thing....when to upgrade and to what! Believe me, I do relate to your "dilemma" & I've spent more time on this than any other aspect of my system, setup, or desire for a nice PJ setup. But it's getting time for me to hit the sack now redface.gif

Steve
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post #12 of 33 Old 07-17-2012, 12:24 AM - Thread Starter
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As far as customer support, I believe PIONEER has gone down hill in that department too. When I was having problems with the SC-09tx I emailed them so many times and nothing. Then called and that did no good either. Hell it took them about 2 weeks to get back with me and when they did they had no answer for me. I got more help on the fourms from u guys then PIONEER themself. I found out on here about the new DSP firmware and when called the service place they called PIONEER and they told me PIONEER (CANADA) new nothing about it.

I know that other brands have there issues as well, When I read about the newer PIONEER stuff I am shocked to hear of so many problems, Mind u some of them have been fixed with firmware updates. Witch I find takes them awhile.

I love PIONEER and I just don't think there the same HIGH END ELITE company they use to be. Mind u I do understand that the MARKET is changing, Hell all the video rental places have closed here, not sure about down there where u guys are. Also the general public likes to watch movies on NET-FEX or watch a movie off there I-POD hell whats the world coming to LOL. So maybe I cant blame Pioneer for going down this path, I guess they have to make money too, and the way they are doing it is NOT making expensive High End equipment.

I love the SC-09tx but next year when I decide to make the the move to a 3D projector I want to upgrade the receiver and bd player.
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post #13 of 33 Old 07-17-2012, 11:55 AM
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Unfortunately, poor customer support can be said of most electronic companies... Onkyo, Denon and Marantz have crappy support as well... My Onkyo receivers had issues with the DTS decoders (the infamous DTS bomb) and Onkyo had adamantly stated there is no issue. I had given instructions to duplicate the problem. The person I talked to later confirmed they could replicate it. But when I talked to others, they denied the whole issue again. Then all of a sudden, six months later a fix was released but not posted online. They would only send the fix to people who reported the issue.

If it's not a BIG screen, it's not a theater...
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post #14 of 33 Old 07-17-2012, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah I guess in the end, just about every brand has issues, expeciall now that they just push the equipment out and update it with firmwares. I think I will just stick to PIONEER and hope that they can make a come back and be the PIONEER ELITE they use to be.
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post #15 of 33 Old 07-17-2012, 02:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-713 View Post

I think I will just stick to PIONEER and hope that they can make a come back and be the PIONEER ELITE they use to be.

The problem with your above, everybody else has caught up with Pioneer. Today, Pioneer is just another name in a eight card horse race.
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post #16 of 33 Old 07-17-2012, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TazExprez View Post

I am looking for either an Onkyo TX-NR818 or last year's Onkyo TX-NR3009. The Denon AVR-4311CI is also getting mentioned a lot over here, so I may consider that one, too. I am leaning towards the 3009.

I have an Onkyo TX-NR818 that I'm returning due to intermittent HDMI "no signal" problems. Onkyo's customer service said it is likely to simply be a defect in the unit and recommended trying another.

While I contemplate my options I am also considering the Denon AVR-4311CI. Feature for feature it appears to have an edge over the 818. Having never owned a Denon product I'm reluctant to subject myself to another unknown. Despite what I have read Onkyo's "build quality" is very good and their support is OK. They run a support website including a user-to-user forum and their representatives have been responsive.

I am still partial to Onkyo but these recurring HDMI problems do not seem to be resolved yet. I just don't have the time or inclination to cope with such issues. That and the fact AirPlay support is STILL absent from their receivers is making me consider other manufacturers. If they only fixed these HDMI problems and added AirPlay, I would stick with Onkyo.

I would not recommend the 3009 at the moment as it is already a year old. J&R no longer stocks them in anticipation of their newer TX-NRx010 models. The TX-NR3010 is one I would recommend considering but you'll have to wait to buy one.
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post #17 of 33 Old 07-17-2012, 04:02 PM
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Had to jump into this. Been gone for awhile. Decided to stop back in. And, who do I see? Steve and Chris. Howdy, guys!

OP....ccotenj and ss9001 make excellent points. I can't add much to them, other than to say that I HAVE owned some Onkyo gear. As had been mentioned, they use their customer base as their beta testers.

Feature for feature, adding in rock solid reliability, it's tough to beat either the Pioneer or the Denon units. I have owned Pios for many, many years. Last one was the Elite SC37. It was a great AVR. I now own a Denon 4311. I can't think of one reason why I would want ANYTHING currently on the market to replace it.

Good luck in your decision.

Music so high you can't get over it....music so low you can't get under it!
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post #18 of 33 Old 07-17-2012, 04:05 PM
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gg!!!!

where you been mate? good to "see" you.... smile.gif

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #19 of 33 Old 07-17-2012, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graphicguy View Post

Feature for feature, adding in rock solid reliability, it's tough to beat either the Pioneer or the Denon units.

gg - glad to see you're back! biggrin.gif
I commend you for a great politically correct answer wink.gif

Both brings things to the table. Personally I just can't "warm up" to Onkyo (pun intended wink.gif) & Integra. I've read too many posts in their threads. Plus, to me they are ugly redface.gif I hate all those buttons & doodads out in the open, cluttering up the faceplate. Too vintage looking for a modern AVR (ccotenj will groan on that one since I still own a vintage Sansui quad rec. eek.gif)

I'm sure Onkyo, and especially Integra, overall, do have good gear but it's just not a brand I personally like looking at. They are just not elegant or classy looking to me. I have the same problem with the Anthem look - no reason not to hide buttons that no one uses with a remote in hand rolleyes.gif Just lazy (or cheap) product layout design.

But seriously, the main reason is the reliability & QC question mark. There are lemons everywhere but for some reason, I have more confidence that Denon & Pioneer receivers will be less likely to have problems in the long term.

Steve
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post #20 of 33 Old 07-17-2012, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Guys for your help...... If I decide to upgrade Next year I will end up sticking with the pioneer, either the SC-68 OR wait till the newer one comes out.

When It comes to hooking up to the pre-outs, does that mean u will only be using the reciever as a processor and the pre outs go to a AMP? Any High end AMPS u can recommend?
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post #21 of 33 Old 07-17-2012, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-713 View Post

Thanks Guys for your help...... If I decide to upgrade Next year I will end up sticking with the pioneer, either the SC-68 OR wait till the newer one comes out.
When It comes to hooking up to the pre-outs, does that mean u will only be using the reciever as a processor and the pre outs go to a AMP? Any High end AMPS u can recommend?

Yes but I would give the internal amps (D3) a shot most find them more than enough.
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post #22 of 33 Old 07-17-2012, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S View Post

I would not consider Onkyo right now... Ever since the x05 series (2006?), Onkyo has been having a constant stream of issues with their receivers... The first few years (5,6,7 series) were having a LOT of HDMI board failures due to heat issues drying out the caps on the HDMI boards. Then there was the faulty IDE connectors with some sort of coating on the boards shorting it out. Then the wonky non response of the remote controllers. Last year models had a string of faulty manufacturing issues and had to be recalled. My 905 and 906 both had HDMI board failures and Onkyo wants $1000 for each HDMI board, or they can repair the board for $300. I had them repaired (shipping from Hawaii is on my tab, and it is very expensive to send a 50+ lb box, over couple of hundred dollars) but after a year, the same boards failed again.

Hello,
I do agree with parts of your assessment. However, the x09 Series has actually represented a positive move forward. New Industrial Design for the first time since the x05 Series, from almost every report seem to run cooler, and have been quite reliable on the whole.

There was a Recall which affected November, December, and January 2012 x09 AVR's due to a faulty Transistor Board. However, Onkyo moved swiftly to get these AVR's off the shelves of Amazon, Newegg, One Call, and the rest. This affected the final production run of the x09's and was somewhat of an aberration as most AVR's have such issues upon release.

Moreover, the Serial/IDE Cable issue with the x08 Series was over a couple Dollar part and Onkyo will cover this Repair indefinitely. As opposed to the $1000 HDMI Boards that were a common problem with x05, x06 and x07 Series, these are far less worrying issues. Note, Onkyo redesigned the HDMI Boards for x07 Series which needed replacement and there have been very few x08 Series that have had HDMI Board Failures.

I honestly do think Onkyo is making strides in respect to Quality Control. Owing to the HDMI Issues in past Series, Onkyo was taking a well deserved bashing. As Models like the 600 and 700 Series are the Number 1 Selling AVR's in many Countries, Onkyo had a great deal to lose if they did not get a handle on the reliability issues. Accordingly, I really do think they got the message and realize that consumers will simply stop purchasing Onkyo AVR's if they did not get a handle on things. For what it's worth, my TX-SR805 and 875 are still functioning perfectly 5 years later as both were sold to close friends. Also, my TX-NR3008 has been outstanding. I know many have not been so lucky.
Cheers,
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post #23 of 33 Old 07-18-2012, 10:03 AM
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Steve, Chris....what's up?

Been doing my thing......actually spending quite a bit of time in France and the U.K. for work. As such, don't have much opportunity to do the HT thing at home. That's about to change, though. Got about a month at home.

Drifting off topic a bit.....I'm not going to bitch about prices in the U.S. for HT gear. While wandering in HT stores in the U.K. and France, and doing a bit of "off the top of my head" Pound and Euro conversion, we're on the "cheap" side of prices in the U.S.

Plus, I know there's a contingency that love the "Britishness" of electronics. But, their brands really do nothing for me whenever they're demo'd to me.

Steve...I see you are getting closer to making the switch from your SC-09. I'm sure that's tough to give up.

Chris.....Salks still treating you well?

I'll drop in from time-to-time to check up.

Music so high you can't get over it....music so low you can't get under it!
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post #24 of 33 Old 07-28-2012, 02:55 AM
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I just got the sc-68 to replace a seperate processor/Amp setup. Its a great reciever and the sound is way better than my seperates. I had Boston Acoustic processor with a matching Amp which I thought was great sounding and had great DAC. I went with the pioneer to take advantage of hdmi and less wires and hopefully get the same sound as the BA. Well the pioneer sounded way better and had room filling sound. If you have nice speakers to output the sound comming from sc-68 you will be very impressed with it.
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post #25 of 33 Old 07-29-2012, 03:43 PM
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Regarding the quality issues with Onkyo, does anyone think that going the Integra route, which usually means purchasing locally and usually at MRSP, would be reasonable 'insurance' that if the unit is problematic the dealer would bear the burden of correcting it?   I know it would still be a major inconvience to have the heart of your entertainment center out for servicing, but still it would be the dealer's headache to make right.  Since I am seriously looking to upgrade from my 805 to the 3010, this has been something I've back and forth with for when Integra releases the comparable model, since they are essentially the same units.

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post #26 of 33 Old 07-31-2012, 11:41 PM
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… does anyone think that going the Integra route, which usually means purchasing locally and usually at MRSP, would be reasonable 'insurance' that if the unit is problematic the dealer would bear the burden of correcting it?
That depends. A local dealer / installer is best for those who don't understand the technology or who are not comfortable with installing everything themselves. Lots of people can't even strip speaker wire, but the fact that you're posting here indicates you're not one of them.

So that leaves the question of potential repairs in the future. Almost every dealer has a thirty day warranty no matter where you buy it so at worst all you have to do is pay for shipping no matter where you buy one (not a small expense, it will easily exceed $50 for these things). A local dealer may or may not support your AVR after that, if not you would have to bring or ship it to an authorized service shop at your expense. If I were you I'd find out where the closest one is to you so you can make a decision. Even a hundred mile drive would be better than paying for shipping.

A local dealer can offer expertise and support, and if you can negotiate a reasonable price you have the best of all possible solutions.

Don't forget sales tax, often not a factor when purchasing out of state (for now).

Personally, I abandoned the local installer idea when he told me HDMI cables alone would cost $600. Idiot.
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post #27 of 33 Old 08-01-2012, 09:14 AM
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IMO if I needed a new AVR right now it would either be a Denon or Pioneer Elite as an installer it seems those 2 brands go obsolete before they stop working just my observation.
Second note I really like how the SC-57 sounded with some Kef's on the last installation it has made me have upgradeitis those digital amps don't seem to strain no matter how hard they are pushed.
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post #28 of 33 Old 08-01-2012, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by 6sj7gt View Post


That depends. A local dealer / installer is best for those who don't understand the technology or who are not comfortable with installing everything themselves. Lots of people can't even strip speaker wire, but the fact that you're posting here indicates you're not one of them.
So that leaves the question of potential repairs in the future. Almost every dealer has a thirty day warranty no matter where you buy it so at worst all you have to do is pay for shipping no matter where you buy one (not a small expense, it will easily exceed $50 for these things). A local dealer may or may not support your AVR after that, if not you would have to bring or ship it to an authorized service shop at your expense. If I were you I'd find out where the closest one is to you so you can make a decision. Even a hundred mile drive would be better than paying for shipping.
A local dealer can offer expertise and support, and if you can negotiate a reasonable price you have the best of all possible solutions.
Don't forget sales tax, often not a factor when purchasing out of state (for now).
Personally, I abandoned the local installer idea when he told me HDMI cables alone would cost $600. Idiot.

Wow, I obviously misunderstood what a local dealer will do for you when a piece of equipment needs repair.  I have purchased the vast majority of my theater equipment via internet or from out of state dealers like AVS. But if after 30 days if you're on your own to get it serviced then to me the premium of the Integra brand or a local dealer wouldn't have any value to me, so back to my usual purchasing methods and savings!   Thanks for information.

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post #29 of 33 Old 08-01-2012, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by TK-713 View Post

Are u talking about the Audio Calabration eq on the recievers or a pro setup? I am in the process with Alourex and getting some room treatment installed. Those auto calabration things dont usually work that great.

Sorry dude, but that's simply incorrect. Now, if you were able to use Auralex to properly treat you room and use auto calibration it would sound even better. But, I would argue that most people (including myself) who have nice set-ups and have used technologies like Audyssey properly hear a dramatic difference - I know I certainly do!
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post #30 of 33 Old 01-27-2013, 11:56 PM
 
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I think room correction makes a very obvious difference but it does not automatically improve the sound, some may not like the results. I know some people who would rather take a SPL and then EQ their speakers themselves and are happier with the end result.

I prefer MCACC to Audessey (but I like Audessey too as for me it has almost always improved the sound quality) just because you can tweak it after it's complete. So it is like getting the best of both worlds, room correction and you can customize it after.. Audessey you can tweak but it usually "punishes you for it" (for example, you cannot use Dynamic EQ if you tweak it beyond EQ settings). I also like MCACC's single measurement; put it in your sweet spot and hit start. Audessey is harder to get repeatability unless you mark exactly where you put the mic. So unless you are careful and mark each spot you put the mic, you can get greatly different results with Audessey (in fact, I have never had Audessey have the same results more than once, sometimes it did better than other times.) MCACC you put it in one place and the results will be more repeatable.
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