The Official Bryston SP3 Thread. - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 1532 Old 04-05-2013, 12:26 PM
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I am still trying to locate where I read James Tanner mention EQ introducing noise. I read so much stuff, I can't remember who said or who wrote what. redface.gif Until I find it read below the comments by James Tanner on EQ:
Yes, Tanner makes a good case against typical room correction, as already acknowledged. But he makes no case against PEQ (that we have seen), which is the method of choice for the notable Harman Synthesis system, among others.
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The truth of the matter is that while EQ may be desirable, to be done correctly would make it cost prohibitive which is why Bryston opted out of any EQ for the SP3.
PEQ is not expensive. It is implemented effectively in the Emotiva UMC-200, if the SSP-800 example is not sufficiently convincing on its own. BTW, PEQ is readily available in the MDS DSP platform used in the SP3.
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My impression is that for Bryston it boiled down to a choice to stick to their principles and their dedication to the pure linearity of the audio signal.

...the reality is, for anyone who wants proper room EQ, very good units exist that can be slotted into the system.
I sense a degree of contradiction. The superb purity achieved in the SP3 is due in no small part to the analog output stages. If that aspect of the design is what draws one to the SP3, that same person would be loath to run an external EQ, with the extra A/D/A cycle, as that would probably degrade that purity to some extent.

There is no question the SP3 sounds good without any onboard EQ. The question is, how good would it have sounded with EQ?
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post #452 of 1532 Old 04-05-2013, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm curious as to how most folks are using their SP3. My quest is for the best sound over HDMI - that is, bit stream from a blu ray player, and then letting the processor do the processing. Has anyone concluded that the SP3 is the best (or phenomenal) for that scenario? 2 channel SQ is not a priority for me, but I do want my sound over HDMI to approach that of 2 channel SQ.

Thanks, Dave

Dave, for me, the SP3 has made my Sony XA-5400ES and Sony BDP-S5000ES irrelevant. By that I mean, when I owned the Arcam AV9 Processor, and its analog outs were its hallmark. Therefore, I was using the analog outs of both Sony ES to the analog inputs of the AV9, and received the best sound I've every heard in my system. Keep in mind the AV9 had single ended inputs not balanced. i was using the D/A converter of the Sony ES. However, since purchasing the SP3, I tried the balanced analog output of the Sony XA-5400, and the D/A converter on the SP3 is superior. It sounds so good that I have not attempted to connect the analog outs of the Sony blu-ray player the BDP-S5000ES. I guess the only way I can get a sound better than the SP3 is to buy either a CD/SACD player or blu-ray player with analog outs and having a superior D/A converter than the SP3. I also find myself loving multi-channel music with the SP3 over 2 channel. I read, just last night, that the SP3 was designed to emphasize multi-channel over 2 channel. So, to directly answer your question, I use either the digital (coaxial or optical) and HDMI more than the analog inputs in the Bryston SP3.
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post #453 of 1532 Old 04-05-2013, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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There is no question the SP3 sounds good without any onboard EQ. The question is, how good would it have sounded with EQ?

Full EQ or just low frequency EQ?
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post #454 of 1532 Old 04-05-2013, 01:12 PM
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Full EQ or just low frequency EQ?
Full.
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post #455 of 1532 Old 04-05-2013, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Full.

It can be done, but from what I have read from James Tanner of Bryston, he intimates that to do it right would be cost prohibitive. I think even Kal Rubison suggested that Bryston have an parametric equalizer for each channel. Again, Kal, if I'm wrong let me know because sometimes, I forget who said what.
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post #456 of 1532 Old 04-05-2013, 02:40 PM
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I did read a friendly discussion between you and him on this subject. While I can say that you have heavily influenced 95% of my audio purchases, I cannot dispute either of you. All I can say is that without EQ, the SP3 sounds phenomenal to me. biggrin.gif

I cannot argue with you (or James) about the performance of the SP3 but, for me, the missing EQ is important, if not entirely critical.  For example, I would not buy a car without air conditioning today.  A lack of AC will have no impact on the performance of the car but a significant one on the user.

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 I also think the inclusion of room correction at the performance level that Bryston strives for would likely be cost-prohibitive for many of their customers, and the reality is, for anyone who wants proper room EQ, very good units exist that can be slotted into the system.

I do not know what he has in mind but I know of no analog EQs that will do what a good digital EQ will do (think Trinnov, DEQX, Dirac, etc.) and all those impose redundant A/D/A conversions on the signals.


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post #457 of 1532 Old 04-05-2013, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I cannot argue with you (or James) about the performance of the SP3 but, for me, the missing EQ is important, if not entirely critical.  For example, I would not buy a car without air conditioning today.  A lack of AC will have no impact on the performance of the car but a significant one on the user.
I do not know what he has in mind but I know of no analog EQs that will do what a good digital EQ will do (think Trinnov, DEQX, Dirac, etc.) and all those impose redundant A/D/A conversions on the signals.

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post #458 of 1532 Old 04-05-2013, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I cannot argue with you (or James) about the performance of the SP3 but, for me, the missing EQ is important, if not entirely critical.  For example, I would not buy a car without air conditioning today.  A lack of AC will have no impact on the performance of the car but a significant one on the user.
I do not know what he has in mind but I know of no analog EQs that will do what a good digital EQ will do (think Trinnov, DEQX, Dirac, etc.) and all those impose redundant A/D/A conversions on the signals.
Yes not worth it!
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post #459 of 1532 Old 04-06-2013, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I cannot argue with you (or James) about the performance of the SP3 but, for me, the missing EQ is important, if not entirely critical.  For example, I would not buy a car without air conditioning today.  A lack of AC will have no impact on the performance of the car but a significant one on the user.

To borrow from James Tanner from another forum, well I guess I lost that discussion. :-)
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post #460 of 1532 Old 04-13-2013, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I cannot argue with you (or James) about the performance of the SP3 but, for me, the missing EQ is important, if not entirely critical. For example, I would not buy a car without air conditioning today. A lack of AC will have no impact on the performance of the car but a significant one on the user.

A car without AC may be fine in Alaska. Likewise, a processor without EQ may sound great in a well treated room.

A car with AC may still be uncomfortable on the warmest days of a Florida summer, likewise a processor with EQ may not sound great in a poorly treated room.

Let's just not fool ourselves! biggrin.gif
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post #461 of 1532 Old 04-13-2013, 06:56 PM
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^^ In addition, a car with AC may be more comfortable even when the weather outside is comfortably cool, and a well treated room may sound even better with a processor with EQ.
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post #462 of 1532 Old 04-13-2013, 07:56 PM
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A car without AC may be fine in Alaska. Likewise, a processor without EQ may sound great in a well treated room.

A car with AC may still be uncomfortable on the warmest days of a Florida summer, likewise a processor with EQ may not sound great in a poorly treated room.

Let's just not fool ourselves! biggrin.gif

 

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^^ In addition, a car with AC may be more comfortable even when the weather outside is comfortably cool, and a well treated room may sound even better with a processor with EQ.

I think that covers the reasonable possibilities. 


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post #463 of 1532 Old 04-13-2013, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
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On thing about it, none of the reviewers downgraded the sonic performance of the SP3 for its lack of EQ; not even Kal. tongue.gif:)
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post #464 of 1532 Old 04-13-2013, 09:53 PM
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On thing about it, none of the reviewers downgraded the sonic performance of the SP3 for its lack of EQ; not even Kal. tongue.gif:)

Of course.   There are those who do not need EQ, some who think they don't and some who will deal with it in other ways.  The SP3 is perfect for them.


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post #465 of 1532 Old 04-14-2013, 08:52 AM
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Halloo, gents. I would very much appreciate your help in resolving problems with multichannel audio settings for my SP3.

Essentially, I can rarely (and randomly) get the SP3 to output the incoming audio signal; it wants to apply surround modes such as ProLogic variants.

I'm using an Oppo BDP-105 (set for multichannel out via HDMI and bitstream out) connected to HDMI 1 (DVD). The SP3 HDMI button is on, with the blue light indicating signal; Stereo button is off.

1. SACD 5.1 will not output native channels; SP3 displays 5.1 in; out is ProLogic and other surround modes.

2. DVD-A 5.1 will not output native channels; SP3 displays 5.1 in; out is ProLogic and other surround modes.

3. Blu-ray disc with 5.1 or 7.1 Dolby True HD: SP3 displays TrueHD 5.1 or 7.1 in; out is ProLogic and other surround modes.

4. Blu-ray disc with 5.1 DTS HDMA: SP3 displays DTS HDMA 5.1 in; out is ProLogic and other surround modes.

I can't find anything in the manual that discusses how to get native resolution from discs, such as decoding and outputting Dolby TrueHD or DTSHD. The surround modes only seem to provide synthesized modes, such as ProLogic variants.

Also, I can't find a way to lock settings, such as speaker distances.

Finally, there are frequent pops as a disc loads and proceeds through startup screens and menus. Each menu seems to elicit a pop (perhaps HDMI handshake?)

Thanks, guys. These things are almost always user error/ignorance, but it is nonetheless frustrating, and I am grateful for your expertise and advice.

Cheerio,

RJ
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post #466 of 1532 Old 04-14-2013, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by SoThere View Post

Halloo, gents. I would very much appreciate your help in resolving problems with multichannel audio settings for my SP3.

Essentially, I can rarely (and randomly) get the SP3 to output the incoming audio signal; it wants to apply surround modes such as ProLogic variants.

I'm using an Oppo BDP-105 (set for multichannel out via HDMI and bitstream out) connected to HDMI 1 (DVD). The SP3 HDMI button is on, with the blue light indicating signal; Stereo button is off.

1. SACD 5.1 will not output native channels; SP3 displays 5.1 in; out is ProLogic and other surround modes.

2. DVD-A 5.1 will not output native channels; SP3 displays 5.1 in; out is ProLogic and other surround modes.

3. Blu-ray disc with 5.1 or 7.1 Dolby True HD: SP3 displays TrueHD 5.1 or 7.1 in; out is ProLogic and other surround modes.

4. Blu-ray disc with 5.1 DTS HDMA: SP3 displays DTS HDMA 5.1 in; out is ProLogic and other surround modes.

I can't find anything in the manual that discusses how to get native resolution from discs, such as decoding and outputting Dolby TrueHD or DTSHD. The surround modes only seem to provide synthesized modes, such as ProLogic variants.

Also, I can't find a way to lock settings, such as speaker distances.

Finally, there are frequent pops as a disc loads and proceeds through startup screens and menus. Each menu seems to elicit a pop (perhaps HDMI handshake?)

Thanks, guys. These things are almost always user error/ignorance, but it is nonetheless frustrating, and I am grateful for your expertise and advice.

Cheerio,

RJ
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I use PCM instead of bitstream. Bitstream was very sporadic, and I rarely listen to SACD/DVD-A.

I think you lock settings by backing out of the menu with the faceplate buttons.

One of the other forums where we both post posted the instructions for setting the inputs to global or local, if you wish to have separate settings for each input.

Hope this helps. It's common with the SP3 to be a little frustrated at first.

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post #467 of 1532 Old 04-14-2013, 09:17 AM
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Thanks, Dave:

You're right, I expected a learning curve, especially since the manual, in my view, is quite obtuse. But it does get frustrating nonetheless.

I tried PCM, with a 5.1 Mozart Nozze di Figaro Blu-ray, and got the same result. I just can't seem to get anything but these ProLogic and other synthesized modes designed to create multichannel audio from stereo. I'll follow your advice and try setting the Oppo to PCM again.

Thanks for the recommendation on locking; I'll try this.

Hope all is well with you, Dave, and thanks again, very much, for your help.

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post #468 of 1532 Old 04-14-2013, 10:15 AM
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Thanks, Dave:

You're right, I expected a learning curve, especially since the manual, in my view, is quite obtuse. But it does get frustrating nonetheless.

I tried PCM, with a 5.1 Mozart Nozze di Figaro Blu-ray, and got the same result. I just can't seem to get anything but these ProLogic and other synthesized modes designed to create multichannel audio from stereo. I'll follow your advice and try setting the Oppo to PCM again.

Thanks for the recommendation on locking; I'll try this.

Hope all is well with you, Dave, and thanks again, very much, for your help.

RJ
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You're welcome. I've developed two approaches-- one is trial and error with the buttons, the other is asking on the other forums with a larger Bryston presence.

Also, the appendixes in the manual may provide some insights, though they're a bit of a slog.

I'm fighting a cold today so:
Best tissues,

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post #469 of 1532 Old 04-14-2013, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

^^ In addition, a car with AC may be more comfortable even when the weather outside is comfortably cool, and a well treated room may sound even better with a processor with EQ.

Very well said as usual, the voice of wisdom smile.gif
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post #470 of 1532 Old 04-14-2013, 11:05 AM
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Deja halloo, gents. I'm still having problems with multichannel audio settings for my SP3 and would very much appreciate your help.

Essentially, I cannot get the SP3 to output the incoming audio signal; it wants to apply surround modes such as ProLogic variants. Is there a way to turn these off?

I'm using an Oppo BDP-105, set for multichannel out via HDMI, and have tried auto, PCM, and bitstream for the audio output settings. The 105 is connected to the SP3's HDMI 1 (DVD). The SP3 HDMI button is on, with the blue light indicating signal; Stereo button is off. The SP3 often displays a G at the bottom right of its screen.

1. SACD 5.1 will not output native channels; SP3 displays 5.1 in; out is ProLogic and other surround modes.
2. DVD-A 5.1 will not output native channels; SP3 displays 5.1 in; out is ProLogic and other surround modes.
3. Blu-ray disc with 5.1 or 7.1 Dolby True HD: SP3 displays TrueHD 5.1 or 7.1 in; out is ProLogic and other surround modes.
4. Blu-ray disc with 5.1 DTS HDMA: SP3 displays DTS HDMA 5.1 in; out is ProLogic and other surround modes.

I can't find anything in the manual that discusses how to get native resolution from discs, such as decoding and outputting Dolby TrueHD or DTSHD. The surround modes only seem to provide synthesized modes, such as ProLogic variants.

Also, I've connected the Toslink audio output from my Pioneer Elite TV to the SP3's Optical 1 input and have assigned this input to DVR through the SP3's Other Settings menu. I get no signal: the SP3's display reads SRC: DVR OPT1 NO. My guess is that the NO indicates an error somewhere, but I have no idea where.

Finally, there are frequent pops as a Blu-ray disc loads and proceeds through startup screens and menus. Each menu seems to elicit a pop (perhaps HDMI handshake?)

Thanks, guys. These things are almost always user error/ignorance, but they are nonetheless frustrating, and I am grateful for your expertise and advice.

Thanks, Dave (moonhawk) for the tip on locking menu selections; worked perfectly.

Cheerio,

RJ
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post #471 of 1532 Old 04-14-2013, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SoThere View Post

Deja halloo, gents. I'm still having problems with multichannel audio settings for my SP3 and would very much appreciate your help.

Essentially, I cannot get the SP3 to output the incoming audio signal; it wants to apply surround modes such as ProLogic variants. Is there a way to turn these off?

I'm using an Oppo BDP-105, set for multichannel out via HDMI, and have tried auto, PCM, and bitstream for the audio output settings. The 105 is connected to the SP3's HDMI 1 (DVD). The SP3 HDMI button is on, with the blue light indicating signal; Stereo button is off. The SP3 often displays a G at the bottom right of its screen.

1. SACD 5.1 will not output native channels; SP3 displays 5.1 in; out is ProLogic and other surround modes.
2. DVD-A 5.1 will not output native channels; SP3 displays 5.1 in; out is ProLogic and other surround modes.
3. Blu-ray disc with 5.1 or 7.1 Dolby True HD: SP3 displays TrueHD 5.1 or 7.1 in; out is ProLogic and other surround modes.
4. Blu-ray disc with 5.1 DTS HDMA: SP3 displays DTS HDMA 5.1 in; out is ProLogic and other surround modes.

I can't find anything in the manual that discusses how to get native resolution from discs, such as decoding and outputting Dolby TrueHD or DTSHD. The surround modes only seem to provide synthesized modes, such as ProLogic variants.

Also, I've connected the Toslink audio output from my Pioneer Elite TV to the SP3's Optical 1 input and have assigned this input to DVR through the SP3's Other Settings menu. I get no signal: the SP3's display reads SRC: DVR OPT1 NO. My guess is that the NO indicates an error somewhere, but I have no idea where.

Finally, there are frequent pops as a Blu-ray disc loads and proceeds through startup screens and menus. Each menu seems to elicit a pop (perhaps HDMI handshake?)

Thanks, guys. These things are almost always user error/ignorance, but they are nonetheless frustrating, and I am grateful for your expertise and advice.

Thanks, Dave (moonhawk) for the tip on locking menu selections; worked perfectly.

Cheerio,

RJ
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This sounds like a configuration problem with the Oppo. On my Sony XA-5400ES, I had the same problem because I had it connected with both optical and HDMI. There was a setting on the Sony which turned the HDMI output on and off. I set it to on and it played the 5.1 SACD in their native format.
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post #472 of 1532 Old 04-14-2013, 03:56 PM
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Do you have secondary audio enabled on the Oppo? If so, disable it.

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post #473 of 1532 Old 04-14-2013, 04:17 PM
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The other question is are you using HDMI2 out of the Oppo?

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Ayre K-5xeMP, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, DBP 2010, Samsung BD-C7900, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650. Sitting still CCM616, Kef...
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post #474 of 1532 Old 04-14-2013, 10:40 PM
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Thanks for your kind replies, Dave, gbaby, Tony, and Jima4a:

Oddly, tonight, some of the problems self-healed. No settings have been changed. I had the same experience with my just-received BDP2 and BDA2, which would not emit sound for the first two days and miraculously worked on the third. It remains to be seen whether these are intermittent issues. The joys of merging computer and audio technologies, eh?

Here are the specifics:

1. The Oppo has always been set to Secondary Audio off. I used the HDMI 1 output into the SP3's HDMI 1 input; the SP3's HDMI 1 output goes to our Pioneer Elite TV's media box. I will change this setup, since the SP3 must be powered up for the HDMI passthrough function to work; I'll run HDMI 1 directly to the TV and HDMI2 to the SP3; I won't use either of the SP3's HDMI outputs. Jima4a, are you recommending that I use HDMI2 from the Oppo? Any problems with doing so?

2. Oddly, the SP3 tonight for the first time passed native audio through the processor without wanting to process ProLogic and the other synthesized formats. On AudioCircle, kosh2258 advised me to cycle through the surround modes until passthru appeared. The passthru option had not appeared until tonight, and it seems to work fine (for now).

3. Still cannot get the TV audio from the Pioneer media box through the SP3. As directed on page 12 of the manual, I set in the SYSTEM SETUP -> DIGITAL SOURCES menu the DVR input to OPT1. When I choose the DVR input and press the Digital button, the light remains red and the SP3 display reads DVR OPT1 NO. I've not a clue what to do to fix this.

4. Does anyone know what the G displayed in the lower right-hand part of the SP3 screen means?

Thanks, gents, for your very helpful advice. I very much appreciate your expertise and generous help. Your peer-to-peer guidance is extremely valuable.

Best regards,

RJ

Eschew obfuscation.
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post #475 of 1532 Old 04-14-2013, 10:59 PM
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HDMI2 is better for audio on the Oppo as it will do DSD (SACD), not sure if the SP3 accepts that format or not. Basically for the Oppo 103/105 the video on HDMI1 is better and the audio on HDMI2 can be better.

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Ayre K-5xeMP, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, DBP 2010, Samsung BD-C7900, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650. Sitting still CCM616, Kef...
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post #476 of 1532 Old 04-15-2013, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

HDMI2 is better for audio on the Oppo as it will do DSD (SACD), not sure if the SP3 accepts that format or not. Basically for the Oppo 103/105 the video on HDMI1 is better and the audio on HDMI2 can be better.

I don't think doing DSD will mattter because the SP3 converts it to PCM.
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post #477 of 1532 Old 04-15-2013, 07:47 AM
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If you have an Oppo 105 I would think you would just use the analog outputs to the SP3. If you use room correction on everything then it will be digitized.

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post #478 of 1532 Old 04-15-2013, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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If you have an Oppo 105 I would think you would just use the analog outputs to the SP3. If you use room correction on everything then it will be digitized.

The SP3 does not do EQ.
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post #479 of 1532 Old 04-15-2013, 09:40 AM
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Thanks. Then I don't see any reason why you wouldn't use the Oppo's analog output.

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post #480 of 1532 Old 04-15-2013, 12:47 PM
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Thanks. Then I don't see any reason why you wouldn't use the Oppo's analog output.

That means the choice is between the DACs in a $1,000 player and those in a $10,000 processor.

Go with what sounds better to you.

But that's why I went with the Oppo 103 as opposed to the 105.

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