Denon's older AVR-1802 Vs. Dolby Digital 5.1 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 10 Old 07-24-2012, 04:34 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
MJfromMD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hello audio fans,

I realize that this Denon 1802 is an older AVR unit, and it wasn't ever their flagship. So the model never really blazed on the front pages or lit up the audiophile's shop windows. But this model DID give you the beloved Burr Brown DACs, a respectable power output to drive a modest HT system, and some very nice bells & whistles for the price.

Unfortunately, they left out one major player destined to be a requirement due to licensing; the HDMI connection. This dictates using discrete coax inputs as the only method of gaining "pure audio", which voids using the receiver's decoders and processing benefits, (because the discrete inputs (Ext In) bypass all that other good stuff). Other than that, it was/is a fine unit for 5.1 audio applications.

[B]Mine has a VERY strange problem dealing only with Dolby Digital 5.1 audio[/B], when rendered such "exclusively "by a DirecTv HD receiver or DVR. It ONLY shows up on certain of the DD 5.1 satellite channels - and on the others where it works fine.......it does just that: Works fine!

For years I have put up with this anomaly. I complained to DirecTv to the point of getting a monthly discount for my pain. But - as strange and impossible as it seems to consider - Could this have been a Denon DSP problem all along? I pasted in my assessment of the situation below, in hopes that you smarter-than-most audio buffs might tell me SOMETHING that makes sense of this. It has driven me crazy for too long now.

When listening to Dolby Digital 5.1, on certain DirecTv channels, the audio is absent or reduced to (sounding like) "blips" - being output at around 2 Hz intervals.

Since this only happens on certain channels, while others were/are output fine, I historically laid this problem on DirecTv for years. To watch those "certain channels", it requires setting their DVR's output setting to "PCM" and listening to it in "ProLogic II", (which is sub-standard at best).

Perpetually wanting to find the answer to this major inconvenience, I have researched again and again, and recently found others assigning the blame to Denon's decoding for what appears to be this same, exact problem.

I often wondered how I could be the only DirecTv customer trying to enjoy Dolby Digital 5.1 by way of this particular "vintage" Denon AVR unit.

Additionally, I recently upgraded with a new TV, (one that also has DD 5.1 decoding and a digital output). I had hope of circumventing the DD issue by sending the audio from the DirecTv unit to the Denon via the TV's digital in/outputs. I found that the TV can decode the DD audio (even on the "problem channels") perfectly - playing it through the TV's internal speakers just fine. This tends to indict the Denon unit's DD decoder somewhat, wouldn't you agree?

However, using the TV's digital output, (fiber optic cable) to feed the audio to the Denon unit results in the same erroneous output.

I wrote Denon about this issue years ago when it occurred. Denon tech rep said that the issue could not be a problem with the AVR since it shows only on certain channels, but not the others, (which admittedly, sounded logical to me at that time) . They laid blame to the DirecTv equipment or transmission protocol. But now I am wondering if there is a whole dimension for possibility of error in DSP or decoders that I don't understand, (one that caught Denon engineers as well - but due to "the vintage" of my unit, and/or the rarity of the issue - no acknowledgement or resolve for the problem was made public). And it's for damn sure that Denon isn't contacting their customer base about offering any free fix.

Well at this point, I am more obsessed with learning the truth concerning this strange mystery than the cost for any potential remedy. I really like having this AVR unit. It was VERY reasonable cost-wise (remember those Burr-Brown DACs - which remain a premium configuration in ANY high-end offering) and performs excellent in my HT system. Sure - It is a bit difficult to achieve reference quality audio without HDMI inputs. But the 1802 has those 6 discrete inputs for use with a good player/source, by/which to provide an excellent 5.1 (6 channel) output - when so-connected.

What about it friends........anyone want to chime in on this? I thank you all for reading the marathon post - regardless.
MJfromMD is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 10 Old 07-24-2012, 05:48 AM
585-645-1006
 
jdsmoothie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 45,276
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1407 Post(s)
Liked: 1603
Regardless of whether it's the DTV box or the AVR, you're much better served upgrading to a newer model AVR as even the lowest model with Audyssey (last year's 1612 or current 1613) trumps the BB DACs even in the much more advanced 3302 let alone your 1802.

---------------------------------
"JD" – jd@avscience.com ; shop.avscience.com ; 585-645-1006, AVScience - Authorized dealer for AVRs, Speakers, etc. 
Daily 8am – 8pm EST (Sat/Sun too if you leave message)
Call for pricing on Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Pioneer Elite, Def Tech, Atlantic Tech, Oppo
** Think the AVR is defective?  Reset the microprocessor 4-5 times. 
jdsmoothie is offline  
post #3 of 10 Old 07-24-2012, 06:04 AM
Member
 
highmr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Did you try different cables and connector types to rule out these possible issues? Coax vs. optical, if those are available on your unit, or a different optical cable.
I think it is fun to keep old equipment running, but another question is whether it supports DTS. (Not related to the cable box issue which is just sending dolby digital.) I have an older Yamaha that does not support DTS, which leads to surprising results when a DTS movie starts to play.

LCR: Hsu HB-1 MK2, HC-1 MK2 ........ Subwoofers: Rhythmik D15SE, Hsu VTF-2 MK4
Receiver: Denon 2310CI .................. Networking: ATV3, WDTV Live
Blu-Ray: Oppo BDP-80 .................... TV: Panasonic TC-50PU54
highmr is offline  
post #4 of 10 Old 07-24-2012, 10:44 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
afrogt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 23,247
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 246 Post(s)
Liked: 400
Quote:
I think it is fun to keep old equipment running, but another question is whether it supports DTS. (Not related to the cable box issue which is just sending dolby digital.) I have an older Yamaha that does not support DTS, which leads to surprising results when a DTS movie starts to play.

The Denon AVR 1802 supports Dolby Digital 5.1, DTS and also has Dolby Pro Logic II.

Afro GT
afrogt is offline  
post #5 of 10 Old 07-24-2012, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
MJfromMD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
HIGHMR - Yes to your questions concerning cables, etc. I have TOTALLY proven via step-by-step troubleshooting that the optical and digital coax cables (as well as their respective inputs/outputs) are not the cause. So far as "keeping old equipment running", I can assure you that my purpose exceeds this. This unit is a very fine piece of audio equipment. I am sure that others who spend $1000 - $6000 on their audio processors or receiver/amps would say they have better 5.1 audio quality than mine can reproduce. But arguably - those are the numbers one would spend to get there. My HT room is only 15' deep x 24' wide and I don't see any advantage to upgrading to 7.1 audio in that small space. So as particular as I may be, I am satisfied without adding those channels.

I enjoy fine audio and someone would have to work VERY hard to prove to me that a better 5.1 reproduction could be demonstrated simply by replacing my AVR with another unit costing even twice what I paid for this one. I am certain better units do exist, of course - but at a much higher pricing. But I digress - the point in this thread was to attempt to jar someone who is familiar with this exact problem - and may be kind enough to share their findings on it with me.

Also: Yes - As FROGT says, this unit supports DTS, (which is "the ultimate" IMHO, to date - as you pointed out). However, I speak only of DD 5.1 audio in the post because this problem is present exclusively when using the DirecTv receivers/DVRs while viewing channels broadcasting in DD 5.1 audio. I have also tried multiple DirecTv receivers. All troubleshooting that tests equipment integrity has been done in a logical scientific fashion. It is proven that this issue is one of design flaw - not damage or setup.

Thank you all - those that have offered your attempts to help.
MJfromMD is offline  
post #6 of 10 Old 07-25-2012, 01:01 PM
Newbie
 
cafepuya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I used to have a MYHD digital tuner card in my HTPC that I connected to my 1802 with the coax digital cable and most of the time when watching TV shows would be in DD 5.1, but commercials would come DTS. I always had the input set to auto.
cafepuya is offline  
post #7 of 10 Old 07-26-2012, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
MJfromMD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Commercials would come in DTS? That is VERY strange. I've not heard of commercials - or TV broadcast in general, so far - that have "DTS mixed" audio. Even though I do hate commercials, DTS audio is a rare treat wherever you find it!

I too use the "auto" input mode of the AVR-1802 to automatically "find" the correct input where audio is being sourced.
"
Also: When Dolby Digital is received, the Denon display DOES indicate Dolby Digital", even when it is on the "flaky received" channels. (But the problem is still unresolved.)
MJfromMD is offline  
post #8 of 10 Old 07-26-2012, 05:28 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
afrogt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 23,247
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 246 Post(s)
Liked: 400
Nobody sends TV audio in DTS.

If your receiver is showing DTS then you have DTS:Neo engaged which takes 2 channel stereo audio and mixes it to 5.1. You could just as easily set it to Dolby PLII which does the same thing to 2 channel audio.

To my knowledge there are no cable/sat receivers that send a DTS signal or networks that broadcast in DTS. DirecTV boxes definitely do not do this.

Afro GT
afrogt is offline  
post #9 of 10 Old 07-27-2012, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
MJfromMD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It would be great if the threads posted were aimed at helping instead of self esteem. The original problem remains unaddressed while side orders such as DTS are now being volleyed about.
MJfromMD is offline  
post #10 of 10 Old 07-27-2012, 03:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
DonoMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,670
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
How long have you had it and did you notice the problem from day 1? Or did you not get the DirecTV stuff 'til later?

It seems that this problem is not entirely unknown for your receiver. People are reporting it for other gear as well, including both with DirecTV and with other satellite services. https://www.google.com/search?q=denon+1802+dolby+digital+glitch

You can try a processor reset, and if your receiver has any options that you can change about the DD settings, you can try playing with those (though you probably already have if so)... Even stuff like Dynamic Range Compression.. worth a try if you ask me. There may be a magic combination.

I would tend to agree that buying a new receiver, even if an inexpensive one, would offer you other benefits. But some people here to kind of expect you to do that a bit more than they should at times (I'm probably one of those people sometimes too)...

"Vintage" is good for wine, not for A/V equipment.

-Dan D.
DonoMan is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off