$1500 - What do you buy? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 60 Old 07-28-2012, 11:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

There is no audible difference between the amps of the 4311 and those in the XPA5.
Sorry, but that is an absolutely baseless claim, unless you have evidence to support it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

The theoretical difference in max output is insignificant -- if the amps in the 4311 are insufficient to power your speakers, you're going to need more power than what the XPA5 can supply.
Once again, that is a highly dubious claim unless some real data can be presented, no NOT "SPECS".
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Image T6 spec sheet says 8 ohms nominal, 4 ohms min. That is actually not a bad load for an amp; many speakers dip below 4 ohms. Note THX certification requires the amp be able to drive 3.2 ohms.
Denon AVR-4311Ci = 140 W/ch at 8 ohms, 170 W/ch at 6 ohms (lowest nominal impedance rating though it doeslist 220 W "dynamic" power into 4 ohms, 2 channels -- at least it actually has something at 4 ohms!)
Emotiva XPA-5 = 200 W/ch at 8 ohms, 300 W/ch at 4 ohms
No apples-to-apples... Comparing a couple of the numbers:
140 W vs. 200 W => 1.55 dB
170 W vs. 300 W => 2.47 dB
Don, you ought to know better, shame on you.

To the OP, nothing wrong with the Denon specifically, but some of the claims here are absurdly anecdotal and biased. Is it the "best" you can do for $1500? Hardly. It could be. but such unanimity is preposterous.

cheers,

AJ
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post #32 of 60 Old 07-28-2012, 11:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roblutts View Post

Recommendations?? I don't need all the Airplay and useless bells and whistles. Just awesome audio for HT and music listening. Power amp + AVR setup maybe???
Thanks in advance!!!
Rob
If that is your goal, I would strongly recommend the latter. Yes, an AVR (with pre-outs) and separate amp. Just an overwhemlming amount of poorly informed people here dispensing anecdotes as fact rolleyes.gif
Did I miss where you even mention how many channels you want/need? 5? 7? 9?
That sort of info would be helpful for a rational, objective suggestion instead of the kool-aid drinking fanboy stuff.

cheers,

AJ
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post #33 of 60 Old 07-28-2012, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

There is no audible difference between the amps of the 4311 and those in the XPA5.
Sorry, but that is an absolutely baseless claim, unless you have evidence to support it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

The theoretical difference in max output is insignificant -- if the amps in the 4311 are insufficient to power your speakers, you're going to need more power than what the XPA5 can supply.
Once again, that is a highly dubious claim unless some real data can be presented, no NOT "SPECS".
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Image T6 spec sheet says 8 ohms nominal, 4 ohms min. That is actually not a bad load for an amp; many speakers dip below 4 ohms. Note THX certification requires the amp be able to drive 3.2 ohms.
Denon AVR-4311Ci = 140 W/ch at 8 ohms, 170 W/ch at 6 ohms (lowest nominal impedance rating though it doeslist 220 W "dynamic" power into 4 ohms, 2 channels -- at least it actually has something at 4 ohms!)
Emotiva XPA-5 = 200 W/ch at 8 ohms, 300 W/ch at 4 ohms
No apples-to-apples... Comparing a couple of the numbers:
140 W vs. 200 W => 1.55 dB
170 W vs. 300 W => 2.47 dB
Don, you ought to know better, shame on you.

To the OP, nothing wrong with the Denon specifically, but some of the claims here are absurdly anecdotal and biased. Is it the "best" you can do for $1500? Hardly. It could be. but such unanimity is preposterous.

cheers,

AJ

There has been enough independent testing of both of these units which have generated consistent results to safely make these claims. In addition, I have enough measurements of my system with the XPA5 in and out of the system to support both my subjective opinions and which corroborate independent measurements that I'm comfortable with my assessment.

As usual AJ, you choose to play devils advocate rather than actually detail what you believe is incorrect or even to suggest a better option. What would you recommend to the OP? What evidence do you have specifically addressing the audible superiority of the XPA5 when compared to the internal amps of the 4311?

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post #34 of 60 Old 07-28-2012, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by roblutts View Post

Recommendations?? I don't need all the Airplay and useless bells and whistles. Just awesome audio for HT and music listening. Power amp + AVR setup maybe???
Thanks in advance!!!
Rob
If that is your goal, I would strongly recommend the latter. Yes, an AVR (with pre-outs) and separate amp. Just an overwhemlming amount of poorly informed people here dispensing anecdotes as fact rolleyes.gif
Did I miss where you even mention how many channels you want/need? 5? 7? 9?
That sort of info would be helpful for a rational, objective suggestion instead of the kool-aid drinking fanboy stuff.

cheers,

AJ

Speaking of anecdotal posts with no supporting evidence....

Are the rules different when you post AJ? Only asking because you just did exactly what you called others out for in this thread.

Btw, how would I be a "kool aid drinking fanboy" when I own both of the products in question?
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post #35 of 60 Old 07-28-2012, 12:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Image T6 spec sheet says 8 ohms nominal, 4 ohms min. That is actually not a bad load for an amp; many speakers dip below 4 ohms. Note THX certification requires the amp be able to drive 3.2 ohms.
Denon AVR-4311Ci = 140 W/ch at 8 ohms, 170 W/ch at 6 ohms (lowest nominal impedance rating though it doeslist 220 W "dynamic" power into 4 ohms, 2 channels -- at least it actually has something at 4 ohms!)
Emotiva XPA-5 = 200 W/ch at 8 ohms, 300 W/ch at 4 ohms
No apples-to-apples... Comparing a couple of the numbers:
140 W vs. 200 W => 1.55 dB
170 W vs. 300 W => 2.47 dB
A change of 1 dB is barely perceptible to most of us, 3 dB is just noticeable, and 10 dB is twice as loud (and takes ten times the power). From a volume standpoint, the extra headroom is very probably in the mud. Will the Emotiva drive the speakers "better"? Hard to say, but at normal volume levels I strongly suspect no difference would be heard.
OTOH, the 4311 adds Audyssey XT32, a significant advance in the ability to correct in-room frequency response, something that trumps the amp argument IMO. That is, I would expect, for this system, far more improvement from XT32 than from adding an amp.
One counter: if the VSX-50 really is underpowered, something I tend to doubt, then the same argument applies in reverse. The VSX-50 is rated at 90 W/ch, so power-wise the step-up to the 4311 is not terribly significant (from 90 W to 140 W is only 1.92 dB). Perhaps the OP should check one of the many in-room SPL calculators to see how much power he might need to hit say 100 or 105 dB. One is http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
YMMV, IMO, FWIWFM, etc. - Don

Thank you for providing all of that information. I would point out that the Denon's given specs for 4 ohm performance is with 2 channels only , while the Emotiva's is with all 5 channels. At any rate you seem to be in the camp that says all amps/AVR amps sound the same except for decibel level increases due to wattage. And if you are happy with that finding then the Denon, while certainly not being able to hit its rated power with 5 channels driven(when you calculate based on its total power draw and efficency of power supply) will do just fine. And I am really looking forward to adding Audyssey XT32 to my system down the road.

My experience differs with yours in the AVR vs amp department, but I'll leave it at that.
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post #36 of 60 Old 07-28-2012, 12:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

There has been enough independent testing of both of these units which have generated consistent results to safely make these claims.
Let's see 'em. Don't tell us, show us. Data.
I'd love to see where it was determined that
Quote:
There is no audible difference between the amps of the 4311 and those in the XPA5.
. That requires controlled listening tests. I'd like to see the load and levels. Did it involve the T6 impedance and phase angles?

Lets see the data then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

In addition, I have enough measurements of my system with the XPA5 in and out of the system to support both my subjective opinions and which corroborate independent measurements that I'm comfortable with my assessment.
Show, not "tell".
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

As usual AJ, you choose to play devils advocate rather than actually detail what you believe is incorrect or even to suggest a better option. What would you recommend to the OP?
Can't help you with reading comprehension. Another basic failing on these forums.
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

What evidence do you have specifically addressing the audible superiority of the XPA5 when compared to the internal amps of the 4311?
And the strawmen begin....
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post #37 of 60 Old 07-28-2012, 12:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Speaking of anecdotal posts with no supporting evidence....
Are the rules different when you post AJ?
Never.
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Only asking because you just did exactly what you called others out for in this thread.
Keep dreaming.
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Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Btw, how would I be a "kool aid drinking fanboy" when I own both of the products in question?
By making anecdotal unscientific unsupported claims.
Same as ever.
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post #38 of 60 Old 07-28-2012, 01:14 PM
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Well I agree totally with DonH50 and bfreedma. I added an Emotiva XPA-3 to my 130 watt rated receiver a few years ago. Being that I spent the money, the assumption would be that I am biased towards the Emotiva and should claim amazing changes to the sound. Well, to my ears, in my room, with my equipment there was absolutely no change to the sound by adding an external amp. If I was pushing the sound levels to the absolute extreme maybe I would hear a difference but when playing my system very loud I still don't notice any change. I have disconnected and reconnected the amp several times but sounds the same to me. No I don't own any high dollar test equipment so I can't provide the resident argumentative troll with scientific facts. And no I didn't do double blind testing as I don't have that type of setup.

I do like the XPA-3 amp and feel it is a great product for the price but I sure don't buy into statements claiming adding an amp will dramatically improve the sound. Especially with a quality receiver like the 4311 or my older Elite. I tell everyone to try the receiver first and only buy an amp if it is obvious you are underpowered. And then, I recommend far more than 200 watts to make it a noticable improvement.

Just my opinion based upon my experience with my equipment. Hope that is somewhat informative.
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post #39 of 60 Old 07-28-2012, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

It nicely encapsulate your IQ. Thanks! smile.gif

Unlike you, I am trying to add beneficial information to this thread. I know there are many contributors here with far more knowledge than I. All I am doing is sharing my experience. So far you have contributed nothing other than to tear down everyone else. So the fact that I don't own specific testing equipment is a reflection on my IQ? Really? In thread after thread I see you repeating these same destructive posts.

I guess I just don't understand your marketing strategy. You are trying to sell speakers yet you deliberately go on a public forum and talk all this trash. Do you really think anyone reading your posts have any type of positive image of your business and would want to make a purchase from you? Good luck buddy!
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post #40 of 60 Old 07-28-2012, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by roblutts View Post

With this budget (plus or minus a little), what do you buy in terms of an AVR?? Just upgraded my speakers to PSB Image T6's and a PSB Imagine center channel. I haven't purchased surrounds yet (still using old ones). I have a Pioneer VSX-50 that sounds ok, but is underpowered for these.
I've looked at a Marantz 6006 or similar model, Pioneer SC-65. Recommendations?? I don't need all the Airplay and useless bells and whistles. Just awesome audio for HT and music listening. Power amp + AVR setup maybe???
Thanks in advance!!!
Rob



Lets look at this from the op's perspective. He wants more power - why because he does ,he feels its underpowered. Now since he states he doesnt want any bells and whistles maybe he should consider a reciever with preouts and add an external amp. As stated a jump from 90 watts to 140w is no big deal. How about a jump from 90w to 200w or more all channels driven.I am not going to suggest brands since that will incite a fanboy war. These threads always turn into the same argument, all amps sound the same which if fine, but not all amps make the same power which is what the op wants. We dont know how large his room is ,no mention of a sub which takes the load off the amp,or what levels he listens at or is he running all his speakers full range.If someone wants an amp so the can say they have one so be it ,its that persons money not ours. I am not sure why we need to attack each other everytime someone ask's for a recommendation and as individual we all have our preferences, we should not be attacked for sharing our views on a public forum nor should we try and force others to see things the way we do. Its pretty clear what the op wants so lets see if we can give it to him instead of foolish bickering.

richard
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post #41 of 60 Old 07-28-2012, 04:03 PM
 
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Yeah, can you imagine dealing with someone like him when buying new gear? What's surprising is he's not able to see what's going on!
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post #42 of 60 Old 07-28-2012, 04:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

If that is your goal, I would strongly recommend the latter. Yes, an AVR (with pre-outs) and separate amp. Just an overwhemlming amount of poorly informed people here dispensing anecdotes as fact rolleyes.gif
Did I miss where you even mention how many channels you want/need? 5? 7? 9?
That sort of info would be helpful for a rational, objective suggestion instead of the kool-aid drinking fanboy stuff.
cheers,
AJ

AJ, I currently have a 5.1 setup and will eventually go to 5.2, 7.2 at most. Don't see the need for 9.2. What would you recommend in an AVR/Power Amp setup with this budget +- a few hundred?

DENON AVR-4311CI, PSB T6's, PSB Imagine center, PSB B5's surround, Rhythmik FV15-HP, Epson 8350 Projector
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post #43 of 60 Old 07-28-2012, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
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AVR 4311 owners,

I'm trying out the 4311 I did find and after messing with the settings for a few hours (very tiring since they didn't have exact remote and I have to do it all through front panel). I'm happy
with the overall sound except sub. I have a powered Velodyne 10" and it's barely there. It's connected correctly and it does work, just kind of docile compared to what I'm used to.
I turned it up through the channel settings and still just ok. I actually took off the grill to make sure it was working and it was humming. Any thoughts?

DENON AVR-4311CI, PSB T6's, PSB Imagine center, PSB B5's surround, Rhythmik FV15-HP, Epson 8350 Projector
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post #44 of 60 Old 07-28-2012, 04:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roblutts View Post

AJ, I currently have a 5.1 setup and will eventually go to 5.2, 7.2 at most. Don't see the need for 9.2. What would you recommend in an AVR/Power Amp setup with this budget +- a few hundred?

Hi Rob. Let me preface by saying that I probably had very similar requirements (as yours) a year or 2 back...and ended up buying a Yamaha RXA800 "Aventage", which I suppose now makes me a kood-aid drinking Yammy fanboy biggrin.gif.
To go with my 200w/ch Tripath amp (400/4ohm, stable to 2 ohms).
I got the Yamaha because, it had sufficient features I wanted, with enough future proofing where I still don't feel regret about the purchase. I only require 5 ch also, but superlative 2 ch was a must, as my ratio leans heavily to 2 ch vs HT.
The Yamaha had all connectivity, preouts all channels and sufficient power amplification for the channels that I intended to use, which was center and surround only. That way the power supply rails needed only to be able to supply enough for 3 banks of output transistors in dynamic, not continuous fashion - since I listen to music and movies, not steady state signals (except when setting up and/or testing speakers)!
There are too many good HT receivers out there for me to know the intricacies of each, but my suggestion for your budget would be something like the Yamaha RXA810 or 820, with pre-outs, enough connectivity, features, etc for you...and ample power reserves to drive just the surround, which tend to be distances much shorter than the mains. At even 1m closer, they would require (approx) 3db less power than your mains, to produce the same SPL given the same voltage sensitivity.
I would then opt for something like the Emotiva XPA-3, with significantly more current reserve than the typical HT receiver, for the front 3 ch, or at least for the front 2, depending on your requirements for 2 vs MCH reproduction, musical tastes, etc, etc.
That type of combo could/should lead to sonically superior performance with your mains, dependent upon your particular requirements for fidelity, levels and program choice (which we still don't know)....and remain within budget
Best of luck btw. biggrin.gif

cheers,

AJ
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post #45 of 60 Old 07-28-2012, 04:35 PM
 
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Oh and btw, 5.2, .3 or .4 is also best for fidelity with typical rooms and monopole subs. Your T6s could be run full range and then use one sub for smoothing, but that would be in a pinch. Better to high pass the T6s and run multi subs for higher fidelity, especially if higher SPls and a wide listening area is involved.
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post #46 of 60 Old 07-28-2012, 04:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Oh and btw, 5.2, .3 or .4 is also best for fidelity with typical rooms and monopole subs. Your T6s could be run full range and then use one sub for smoothing, but that would be in a pinch. Better to high pass the T6s and run multi subs for higher fidelity, especially if higher SPls and a wide listening area is involved.

Maybe you can fill me in on where I'm going wrong, if I'm going wrong at all. I know what the standard rules are as to passing the lower 80Hz over to the subs to keep the load off the Amp and in doing so, reduces stressed Amp distortion.

I don't like to filter the lower 80Hz over to subs. I like to plug the subs in, turn their sensitivity down to 40Hz or 50Hz and let them handle whatever is passed to them and let the mains deal with what they were designed to deal with for sonic fidelity purposes. We don't crank the Amp up to the point that the mains are even close to being over worked and there's no concern of the Amp being overworked either as the mains have a 100dB sensitivity and even with the stated manufacture, +/- 3 dB drop, we only need a few watts to get the SPL we're wanting; the THX standard of 85dB SPL with 20dB headroom. All this being assisted by a pair of 12" subs, side-by-side to the mains.

I'm happy with the sound quality. I'm just curious as to the why or need to filter the lower 80Hz over to the subs if all the speakers and Amps are in proper balance? Is there a hidden benefit besides taking the load off the Amp in the case of large dynamic swings in the lower 80Hz. Or is this done because most don't properly balance their Amp/speakers output needs and not doing do harms sound quality because of over-driven caused Amp distortion?

confused.gif

-
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post #47 of 60 Old 07-28-2012, 05:03 PM
 
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Umm, that was a response to Rob and his T6s, his mention of 5.1, etc (which is in the post).
No idea about yours, whatever they may be....
All these things "depend"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Umm, that was a response to Rob and his T6s, his mention of 5.1, etc (which is in the post).
No idea about yours, whatever they may be.... All these things "depend"

Thank-you. I realize that your comment was to Rob but I thought is was a question you might be able to respond to.

Did some reading and basically, it said I need to change all my bass management settings.

frown.gif
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post #49 of 60 Old 07-28-2012, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by roblutts View Post

AVR 4311 owners,
I'm trying out the 4311 I did find and after messing with the settings for a few hours (very tiring since they didn't have exact remote and I have to do it all through front panel). I'm happy
with the overall sound except sub. I have a powered Velodyne 10" and it's barely there. It's connected correctly and it does work, just kind of docile compared to what I'm used to.
I turned it up through the channel settings and still just ok. I actually took off the grill to make sure it was working and it was humming. Any thoughts?




Hi rob, is this the 4311 that was open box. If so perhaps that is why it was returned. Your not going to like this idea but i suggest a processor reset since it was open box and someone may have messed with it. Always good to start with a clean slate.
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post #50 of 60 Old 07-29-2012, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I'm just curious as to the why or need to filter the lower 80Hz over to the subs if all the speakers and Amps are in proper balance? Is there a hidden benefit besides taking the load off the Amp in the case of large dynamic swings in the lower 80Hz. Or is this done because most don't properly balance their Amp/speakers output needs and not doing do harms sound quality because of over-driven caused Amp distortion?
confused.gif
-

Unlike the better version of Audyssey MultEQ XT32 in the Denon 4311CI which has the same number of speaker and sub filters, the version of XT in your 5007 has 8x more sub filters than speaker filters so better audio fidelity should be realized passing more of the audio to the sub vs. the speakers.

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post #51 of 60 Old 07-29-2012, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roblutts View Post

AVR 4311 owners,
I'm trying out the 4311 I did find and after messing with the settings for a few hours (very tiring since they didn't have exact remote and I have to do it all through front panel). I'm happy
with the overall sound except sub. I have a powered Velodyne 10" and it's barely there. It's connected correctly and it does work, just kind of docile compared to what I'm used to.
I turned it up through the channel settings and still just ok. I actually took off the grill to make sure it was working and it was humming. Any thoughts?

Rob,

It sounds like you bought an open box. When you say the sub is humming do mean it sounds like a ground loop? Did you check the gain setting on the sub itself? A good starting point would be 12 o'clock (half volume). Did the 4311 come with the manual? If you have the manual read through it to check all the various sub settings and make sure they are all set correctly. If you have the Audyssey mic try running Audyssey to see if it will set everything correctly for you. I think Socketman's suggestion to do a full reset as outlined in the 4311's manual would be a good way to start. Then run Audyssey after reading through the manual throughly. If you have any further indepth questions about the 4311 you could ask them in the 4311 thread. Good luck smile.gif!

Bill

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post #52 of 60 Old 07-29-2012, 09:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Unlike the better version of Audyssey MultEQ XT32 in the Denon 4311CI which has the same number of speaker and sub filters, the version of XT in your 5007 has 8x more sub filters than speaker filters so better audio fidelity should be realized passing more of the audio to the sub vs. the speakers.

Thanks. I believe you but that's a tough one for an old layperson to wrap their think around as being old school, from the gate, we learned to balance system requirements. My family must be getting tired of me running and running and rerunning Audyssey, again and again and again.

eek.gif

Old school, you balanced speaker and Amp requirements and let the LFE handle the LFE channel information so all was in balance, no over-driven Amp distortion. Directionality and fidelity was maintained and the LFE channel did what it was suppose to do (assuming a decently engineered sound track) handle the non-directional/LFE engineered sound track information. Now I'm suppose to step aside and let the processor do bass management for me.

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post #53 of 60 Old 07-29-2012, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

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My family must be getting tired of me running and running and rerunning Audyssey, again and again and again.

Any specific reason why you have run Audyssey multiple times? If you get a chance read the Audyssey FAQ and the setup guide as I found them to be very helpful
Quote:
Old school, you balanced speaker and Amp requirements and let the LFE handle the LFE channel information so all was in balance, no over-driven Amp distortion. Directionality and fidelity was maintained and the LFE channel did what it was suppose to do (assuming a decently engineered sound track) handle the non-directional/LFE engineered sound track information. Now I'm suppose to step aside and let the processor do bass management for me.

I hear you on the "old school" process but I feel that using XT32 will give much better results than a basic manual setup. Especially the way XT32 will EQ your sub(s) as it does a much better job than I could ever do manually.

Bill

My SACD collection, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Parasound 2100, Boston Acoustics A7200 amp, Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
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post #54 of 60 Old 07-29-2012, 12:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Any specific reason why you have run Audyssey multiple times? If you get a chance read the Audyssey FAQ and the setup guide as I found them to be very helpful

Sure. Everything is being changed to accommodate the newly acquired SR5007. I keep changing everything around as a compromise between the wife factor and furniture placement in the lvrm as I keep moving things around to try and make both happy. Man this is not going easy.

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Quote:
I hear you on the "old school" process but I feel that using XT32 will give much better results than a basic manual setup. Especially the way XT32 will EQ your sub(s) as it does a much better job than I could ever do manually.

Bill

Thanks for the thought above as there's no doubt regarding the accuracy of your comment. The SR5007 comes with EQ XT as opposed to EQ XT32 and we have a pair of 12" subs. Boo, hoo, hoo. frown.gif

(Both of the sub's gain is set to the same level, one notch down from that of a single sub setting. Phase is set to zero and the LPF is set to max; 120Hz.)

Due to furniture placement based on the room design, complete with double wide doorway openings at a right angle to each other, coupled with the wife factor, our speaker placement is nowhere close to ideal. All I can do is place the speakers and subs where I can (a terrible idea), do my own room analysis regarding reflections and sound wave cancellation, correct the best one can (again, due to the wife factor, doing a terrible job) for both and allow Audyssey's MultiEQ XT to put Humpty Dumpty back together again. Again, a terrible idea. tongue.gif

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post #55 of 60 Old 07-29-2012, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks socket man, and bill mac. I re-ran Audyssey and the sub sounds right now. I'm not sure about cross-over though. Given my T6's, what freq should I set crossover? I believe it's on 120hz currently.

Thanks to all for the help - peace and love.

Rob

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post #56 of 60 Old 07-29-2012, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Sure. Everything is being changed to accommodate the newly acquired SR5007. I keep changing everything around as a compromise between the wife factor and furniture placement in the lvrm as I keep moving things around to try and make both happy. Man this is not going easy.
eek.gif
Thanks for the thought above as there's no doubt regarding the accuracy of your comment. The SR5007 comes with EQ XT as opposed to EQ XT32 and we have a pair of 12" subs. Boo, hoo, hoo. frown.gif
Due to furniture placement based on the room design, complete with double wide doorway openings at a right angle to each other, coupled with the wife factor, our speaker placement is nowhere close to ideal. All I can do is place the speakers and subs where I can (a terrible idea), do my own room analysis regarding reflections and sound wave cancellation, correct the best one can (again, due to the wife factor, doing a terrible job) for both and allow Audyssey's MultiEQ XT to put Humpty Dumpty back together again. Again, a terrible idea. tongue.gif

It sounds like you have a challeging room and add in the WAF it makes things difficult. I guess you have to do the best with what you have to work with smile.gif. My room isn't the best either but at least I could setup the LCRs so that I am dead center 7' back.

Bill

My SACD collection, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Parasound 2100, Boston Acoustics A7200 amp, Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
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post #57 of 60 Old 07-29-2012, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by roblutts View Post

Thanks socket man, and bill mac. I re-ran Audyssey and the sub sounds right now. I'm not sure about cross-over though. Given my T6's, what freq should I set crossover? I believe it's on 120hz currently.
Thanks to all for the help - peace and love.
Rob

I'm glad to hear things sound better after recalibration smile.gif. The crossover setting of 120Hz sounds kind of high for your T6's. I'm surprised the 4311 did not set them to Large. Audyssey strongly recommends that you do not lower the crossover after Audyssey has been run. Raising it is no problem though.

Bill

My SACD collection, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Parasound 2100, Boston Acoustics A7200 amp, Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
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post #58 of 60 Old 07-29-2012, 01:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by roblutts View Post

Thanks socket man, and bill mac. I re-ran Audyssey and the sub sounds right now. I'm not sure about cross-over though. Given my T6's, what freq should I set crossover? I believe it's on 120hz currently.

The manual asks for the LPF on the sub to be set to max; usually 120Hz. My understanding, set all speakers, including mains to small and let the bass management filters in the AVR do the rest; old school vs new school.

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post #59 of 60 Old 07-29-2012, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roblutts View Post

Thanks socket man, and bill mac. I re-ran Audyssey and the sub sounds right now. I'm not sure about cross-over though. Given my T6's, what freq should I set crossover? I believe it's on 120hz currently.
Thanks to all for the help - peace and love.
Rob

Your T6's were more likely set to LARGE with 40hz crossovers. Are you referring to the AVR's setting "LPF for LFE"? This is not a crossover and should be left at the factory default setting of 120hz to allow the full LFE signal to pass through the AVR to the sub.

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post #60 of 60 Old 07-29-2012, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Thank you for providing all of that information. I would point out that the Denon's given specs for 4 ohm performance is with 2 channels only , while the Emotiva's is with all 5 channels. At any rate you seem to be in the camp that says all amps/AVR amps sound the same except for decibel level increases due to wattage. And if you are happy with that finding then the Denon, while certainly not being able to hit its rated power with 5 channels driven(when you calculate based on its total power draw and efficency of power supply) will do just fine. And I am really looking forward to adding Audyssey XT32 to my system down the road.

My experience differs with yours in the AVR vs amp department, but I'll leave it at that.

You're welcome.

1. I did note in my post the Denon only lists a "dynamic" rating at 4 ohms, and only for two channels. Lowest rating is for 6 ohms, not 4, though many use it with 4-ohm speakers. It can hit its rated power with all channels driven, or close to it, but the rating is lower and only for 6 ohms. HOWEVER, the OP's speakers are 8-ohm nominal, not 4-ohm speakers.

2. I can pick out some amps with some speakers instantly, as can many here. It really depends on the amps, speakers, and room, of course. There are a lot of variables in amplifier design that influence their sound besides power ratings. I put forth power ratings because the OP mentioned power.

3. I do not think anybody is arguing that the Emotiva provides more power, especially into 4 ohms, the question is whether the amp alone will be a significant upgrade. I would try the Denon with XT32, but of course if he needs more power then he should get an amp. That's why I suggested the power calculator; perhaps that extra few dB is really needed. I don't know.

4. The OP seems to believe his speakers are underpowered and was looking at a new AVR. The Denon 4311 has a great rep, his speakers are not that bad a load, and IMO XT32 would provide a step up in sound. What the best investment is for the OP I cannot say, nor really but anyone except the OP. * Disclaimer: I have heard but do not own the 4311. *

5. I have inefficient 4-ohm speakers myself and use Emotiva amps to power them (XPA-2 and XPA-5). I have had a variety of amps in my system through the years, tube and SS, cheap to insanely expensive. The Emo's provide good value and I have a couple of kids to put through college, so I am enjoying them. There are some cases that really need an amp. I just think a lot of the folks buying an amp do not really need one, or should first look to other things for improvements.

Perhaps I should have qualified my post more, but since everything on AVS seems to lead to a long drawn-out battle I figured I'd just post the numbers, my opinion, and let it go... There are plenty of us on AVS with decades of experience and deep technical credentials; mine are no better nor worse than many others. Neither of those matter much in the audio biz anyway as the choice is very personal. Nothing wrong with that!

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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