Official Pioneer SC-68/67 Thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #271 of 1849 Old 10-06-2012, 02:54 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ss9001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: metro Atlanta
Posts: 8,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

There's also DEQ and taking 8 measurements vs. 3 with MCACC...but keep talking. And pass the cherry Kool-Aid:).

lol biggrin.gif
as long as I can have some of the lime kool-aid you're having wink.gif

Pioneer (US at least) is listening. They have to convince Japan & Japan has to see what it would take. That's all I know smile.gif All Pioneer fans & ex-fans wink.gif can do is hope they make it happen.

The sad part is that there are features Pioneer has included that Denon & Onkyo haven't looked at yet and it gets lost in the ongoing sub EQ debate.

Home Theater mentioned the USB-DAC jitter-free feature a number of times in the review, how important it is for highest quality computer audio and how Pioneer is the only company that has ever included this in a receiver. Not one of you former Pio guys picks up on that stuff - all we read is no sub EQ.

At least in this forum, it's looking like Pioneer will need to include sub EQ to satisfy the enthusiasts who've jumped to Audyssey gear if they want to bring them back into the fold. I understand that, I hope they are beginning to wink.gif

This is my opinion, but if it wasn't for Audyssey, there'd be no really good reason for getting a Denon over a Pioneer. I've looked at the Denon 4520's specs, features & manual. And I would choose the SC-68 over it on features, excluding the Audyssey vs MCACC argument. A 100 mb ethernet hub? Really? When I can buy a 4 port 100 mb hub for <$10. Is that a feature worth bragging about?

Pioneer is still paying attention to having legacy connections; I haven't counted jacks but the Denon rear plate is getting more spacious tongue.gif And there's wasteland appearing on the back of the Onkyo 5010 eek.giftongue.gif

I'll take the USB-DAC port over the hub, thank you smile.gif

And I'm liking some of the surround modes Pioneer has added, like Optimum Surround...not sure exactly what it does but it seems to help with older Dolby surround DVD's, increases front-back separation and makes the center less of a point-source.

And you Denon guys better hope D&M Holdings (I mean money-grubbers @ BAIN Capital rolleyes.gif) don't decide to make DenonLink an annual hardware refresh just to sell more gear - at least Pioneer grew out of that phase and PQLS is finally a stable no-more-changes "platform" (Pioneer - I sincerely hope so or you will start seeing ugly posts from me again wink.gif)

Steve
ss9001 is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #272 of 1849 Old 10-06-2012, 03:41 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markabuckley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,077
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 19
I'd take better EQ over USB any day smile.gif

I'd also loose the USB and pay for even better sync/de-jitter of the HDMI bitstream inputs, after all these are primarily home theater playback devices. I seem to remember Pioneer have not beaten their jitter figures for the original SC-07/27 have they ? the ones that had the dedicated BB Sample Rate Converters to reduce jitter smile.gif

unless its asynchronous USB 8 channel - in which case then we'd be talking (my 59TXi has 8 channel USB but not async). I'll download the manual - but it is 2 channel or multi channel inputs, the 59TXi is what - 8 years old now, and allowed, 2, 5, 7 and 8 channel lossless inputs, although admittedly limited to 16/44

USB is nice- but I'm imaging it would be quite a faff to use - most would use it from a HTPC ...

most who use a HTPC (except in very few cases) would use the HTPC for both audio and video playback

but most HTPC software packages are a faff to select different outputs for different formats, so therefore you'd have HDMI and USB connections to the PC - and have to set the software to use USB for 2 channel audio audio - very few programs - except for the like of maybe Jriver allow this ?

if the HDMI inputs were good enough - you'd not really need asyncro USB would you ? If you've a HDMI input that has jitter in the sub 100ns range (Pioneer SC07, Arcam AVR600 etc) - would you gain a noticeable improvement in SQ with async USB ?
markabuckley is offline  
post #273 of 1849 Old 10-06-2012, 04:41 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ss9001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: metro Atlanta
Posts: 8,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 285
^^
marka

I have to tease you a bit here wink.gif

you - who haven't moved past the 59Txi & talk about how wonderful it is in Pioneer & Denon threads - you are criticizing Pioneer for not updating MCACC, jitter on HDMI and dissing a feature that no other AVR has? rolleyes.gif

your 59txi doesn't even have HDMI rolleyes.gif

on the 49 & 59Txi, I owned both & only sold the 59txi for the SC-09. So I know how great they were. But I wouldn't go back to the 59 for any reason, not even nostalgia.

Multichannel async USB - I only have 2 ch files. in a world where multichannel DVD-Audio & SACD didn't succeed, you're worried about multichannel files?

Where, may I ask, are you buying them? As far as I can tell, the 192 & 96 files on HDTracks say nothing about being multichannel. Unless you're rolling your own from old quadraphonic recordings & using dvd-audio conversion/mastering software, who has them? if there are sources, please tell me because I'm sincerely interested.

The 68 also has a standard USB port in the front. I'll take another look at the manual myself and some other ref lit I have & try to confirm for you multich vs 2.

On jitter numbers - you are being disingenuous here.

I recall reading posts by Amirm (confirmed by me) telling you that the newer models have NOT been tested by Miller Audio Research so you have NO idea how they compare with the SC-07. None whatsoever. Saying or even suggesting Pioneer hasn't improved their HDMI jitter without facts is disingenuous.

And hows' that ancient video chip in the 59txi and basic version of MCACC doing for you? rolleyes.gif and enjoying the complexity of having to use an add-on HDMI switcher? I did that with DVI for 3 years and couldn't wait to get rid of it. That was one of the reasons I got the 09.

I recall you've tried some newer gear but how can you complain about what Pioneer is doing now when you're still happy using an old receiver that can't compare in features to what Pioneer & Denon are putting out the past few years?

And for the record, some of you know I have babied a vintage '78-ish Sansui top model quadraphonic receiver, keeping it going for quad LP playback. I also own a super-SQ Fosgate Tate decoder. So I appreciate older gear wink.gif But I have a reason....literally hundreds of good quality quad LP's that are NOT available in any format anywhere...like all the Santana SQ quad recordings...none ever made it to SACD/DVD-A. Fans finally got the quad masters of DSOTM & WYWH in the Immersion box sets. I have 4 ch recordings of Gordon Lightfoot, Average White Band, Joni Mitchell, James Taylor, Joe Walsh, Eagles & countless others even classical, that are not available anywhere. With the Sansui & Audionics, I can play them until I die or they do.

For home theater use, by today's standards, you are using an ancient piece of gear. And the SC-68 does things my 4 year old SC-09 can't do rolleyes.gif

And for amps, marka, if you really prefer class a/b, you have dozens of quality amps to bolt on to a modern AVR, incl Emotiva, so you have no reason, other than $$, not to get a new AVR - doesn't matter if its Pioneer or someone else's.

IMHO, anyone has the right to comment about a review & seek answers how features work, but you can't legitimately criticize a company's features when you're happy with gear that doesn't even have them to begin with.

my 2c

Steve
ss9001 is online now  
post #274 of 1849 Old 10-06-2012, 05:43 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markabuckley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,077
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 19
wow thats a reply and a half smile.gif - and yes I quite agree - I need to move on - just trying to find something I like !!!!

just to recall I did own a SC-05 for a while, and thought the SQ was substantially inferior vs the 59, and Phase Control and Standing Wave control(yes its been improved) - I thought sounded better off than on. Otherwise I'd still own a Pioneer with HDMI on it. I don't have to use a HDMI switcher, as I only need 3 HDMIs and have 3 HDMIs on my TV smile.gif (a Panasonic Pro Plasma monitor)

re EQ all I'm asking for is something similar to MCACC, that just has more frequency points to adjust - surely that can't be difficult to implement smile.gif perhaps a few extra LFE crossover settings too

on that note has the 50hz crossover "quirk" been fixed on the new range ? in that if you select 50hz, it acts as a low-pass filter for the LFE channel as well? other manufacturers you can set the low pass filter to off, 150hz etc etc. I don't see the point of a 50hz crossover setting (other than for music) if you then remove all LFE channel content above it

I do understand what you mean re EQ - but surely Pioneer can move it one stage further ?

re multichannel audio - I wasn't talking music - I was talking Blurays etc - decoding on-board the HTPC (just as you would with a Bluray player if you were to set it to output LPCM) and then theoretically outputting 8 channels of up to 192 khz LPCM via USB async smile.gif

re jitter tests ok you are correct, it was the 37 I was thinking of - which was worse than the 07 and 27, we will have to await the results for the 67 I guess till can make a genuine factual comparison

btw where did you read that the PSU is larger on the 67 ?
markabuckley is offline  
post #275 of 1849 Old 10-06-2012, 06:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markabuckley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,077
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 19
btw I'm out for now - I'll passively read the thread whilst I wait till I try and get a home demo of one of these units smile.gif - fingers crossed its finally the Pio I've been waiting for
markabuckley is offline  
post #276 of 1849 Old 10-06-2012, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ss9001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: metro Atlanta
Posts: 8,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by markabuckley View Post

wow thats a reply and a half smile.gif - and yes I quite agree - I need to move on - just trying to find something I like !!!!

on that note has the 50hz crossover "quirk" been fixed on the new range ? in that if you select 50hz, it acts as a low-pass filter for the LFE channel as well? other manufacturers you can set the low pass filter to off, 150hz etc etc. I don't see the point of a 50hz crossover setting (other than for music) if you then remove all LFE channel content above it

re multichannel audio - I wasn't talking music - I was talking Blurays etc - decoding on-board the HTPC (just as you would with a Bluray player if you were to set it to output LPCM) and then theoretically outputting 8 channels of up to 192 khz LPCM via USB async smile.gif

btw where did you read that the PSU is larger on the 67 ?

- yes you do smile.gif

- never heard that, never encountered it, would need some legit source info confirming to accept this. Why would a specific freq pt change the entire way the chip handles bass? Logically that makes no sense. And maybe it's unique to your 59 wink.gif. Or one of their low cost receivers with different & not as robust DSP, perhaps. Seriously, I have a hard time believing this one. Why would Pioneer release a bug that chopped off LFE above a specific xover point, just one of the half dozen you could pick from? and if it was a software bug, not fix it? confirmation needed before I accept that one. plus, have you confirmed with anyone @ Pioneer? or just repeating forum "gossip" because this is news to me & Ive been active in Pioneer threads for years, incl the MCACC one, so if it's a rampant bug in all their models, why am I only reading about it from you wink.gif Links to legit sources & I'll definitely check them out. And how would such a bug get past ALL and EVERY reviewer for the past 8 yrs? They're not stupid & they DO take test measurements. Did Miller Audio discover this, if so, post the models and I'll check their site. I have read them and no where do I remember ever reading a test saying bass ABOVE a specific Xover pt was filtered out. Proof please smile.gif

- Blu-ray over USB from a HTPC. Well, you've got me there. I never had an interest in using a quirky Windows PC with a keyboard, mouse & monitor to deal with just to watch TV, flip channels or sit down to a movie tongue.gif But I can see why you asked now. I'll see if I can get you an answer, from some lit I have or from a source.

-someone hi up @ Pioneer; specifically, Walkamo. Since I started this thread, some posters have asked questions about certain features that I don't know the answers to. I'll add this review to my list smile.gif I've met him @ CEDIA shows, emailed & talked with him a few times. He's typically very helpful guy. But if he's mistaken or I misinterpreted the info I have, then I'll say so.



-

Steve
ss9001 is online now  
post #277 of 1849 Old 10-06-2012, 06:45 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ss9001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: metro Atlanta
Posts: 8,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 285
btw marka

don't they make video cards with Blu-ray, HDMI & 7.1 audio support?

here's just one for htpc use -
http://www.amd.com/us/products/desktop/graphics/ati-radeon-hd-4000/hd-4870X2/Pages/ati-radeon-hd-4870X2-specifications.aspx

maybe you should upgrade your htpc, too wink.gif

Steve
ss9001 is online now  
post #278 of 1849 Old 10-06-2012, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ss9001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: metro Atlanta
Posts: 8,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by markabuckley View Post

btw I'm out for now - I'll passively read the thread whilst I wait till I try and get a home demo of one of these units smile.gif - fingers crossed its finally the Pio I've been waiting for

all you can do is give it a try smile.gif

here's one way to skin a cat - same as I'm doing with the 68 & 09 -

plug preamp analog outs from 68 or other AVR to multichannel inputs in your 59. Turn volume up on 59 to ~0 dB, select pure direct, turn off MCACC or select off from the memory presets. New prepro, new features, class a/b amps. problem solved smile.gif

a little gludgy but it does work. and you can migrate to another amp if desired.

but to my ears, the new class D amps sounded a little smoother than the Ice amps you're familiar with on the hi-end. but it could be my imagination or could be due to new Air Studios tuning. some say all amps sound the same, some swear they hear differences - subjective & take your pick wink.gif

I'll try to find out about the USB-DAC...

Steve
ss9001 is online now  
post #279 of 1849 Old 10-06-2012, 07:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markabuckley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,077
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Take a look in the manual ? I always assumed it was a feature not a bug ?

and I've just found it in the 67 manual too - page 98, point 3 - referring again to the crossover

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/StaticFiles/Manuals/Home/SC-67_OperatingInstructions061512.pdf

quoting part of point 3 in the above manual "it also decides where the cutoff will be for bass sounds in the LFE channel"

unless I'm misinterpreting ? maybe it is just referring to the redirected bass sounds that have been sent over to the LFE channel ?

ok found a post from 2010/2011 - confirming how it works, seems there is a reason for it - but I'd prefer to choose like you can on Denon - please see post below and the subsequent banter

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1112470/official-pioneer-mcacc-thread/990#post_17987948
markabuckley is offline  
post #280 of 1849 Old 10-06-2012, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ss9001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: metro Atlanta
Posts: 8,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by markabuckley View Post

unless I'm misinterpreting ? maybe it is just referring to the redirected bass sounds that have been sent over to the LFE channel ?

yes you have and what it means is that freq's less than X >> sub, freq's greater than X >> speakers. NO WHERE does it say it limits or cuts the LFE bass. That would violate the Dolby, THX, and most likely all DVD & Blu-ray standards for implementing decoders.

I have to admit, I was so shocked and dismayed about your post, and yes angry that you would post & spread misinformation about a so-called bug, w/o verification, and ignoring ALL evidence to the contrary, including your own 59Txi, based on YOUR interpretation of the manual....I was about to post a pretty bluntly worded reply and I deleted it redface.gif

I thought you knew how bass management worked. Pioneer never has published both ends of a crossover. One would have to believe, marka, that a reputable & top notch company like Pioneer would know how to implement Dolby standards for decoding & band passing the LFE channel, standards that have been around since the late 90's, the inception of the DVD & Dolby Digital. Hell, they implemented Dolby Digital AC3 years before DVD's were invented on Dolby AC-3 laserdiscs, the format they helped invent and develop.

Give their engineers more credit than that! rolleyes.gif

Can't believe I'm wasting my time on this tongue.gif

OK - here's from the link you posted:

Here's essentially how it works:

For Small mains, all frequencies above the crossover are high passed to their original channels. (Large mains receive full range signals, whether the speakers can handle them or not.)

For the subwoofer, the full range signal from Small mains is sent to the sub channel. This is mixed with the LFE, then the combined signal is low passed (below the crossover) and sent to the sub. This method is used to avoid inherent frequency response aberrations due to phase issues that would otherwise result.


Where on earth did you get the idea that Pioneer is chopping freq's above their stated crossover? There are 2 parts of the crossover, a low pass & a high pass function. While some companies, I believe Onkyo may be one, Denon, and definitely Anthem, allow the user to adjust the low pass side so you can limit what goes to the sub, Pioneer combines them into 1 function and for simplicity gives it the name of the freq where bass is sent to the sub not capped from the sub.

On paper, yeah, it may look at geeky to have "control" of both sides, certainly Anthem & Lexicon owners have that privilege but with privilege comes a lot of responsibility to understand what the hell you are doing - and for the normal Pioneer owner, many of whom barely figure out what bass management is let alone how to set both sides of a crossover, this is beyond their knowledge level.

IF you want that kind of adjustment, by all means, get a Denon or Onkyo. But stop spreading posts stating there's a bug that is really your own misinterpreting what you read. And have no confirming evidence to substantiate it. And stop poking holes in an excellent product like the SC-68, when you can't even figure out what to get past an 8 yr old receiver.

Sorry, but what you posted calling out Pioneer for a bug - it annoyed me that you wouldn't at least ask for clarification rather than posting something that wasn't true.

At least when some of the others who now use Denon criticize Pioneer with facts on their side. All you've done is start poking holes on any thing you don't think fits your ideas, without any substantiation. Maybe you should stay with the 59TXi after all.

Steve
ss9001 is online now  
post #281 of 1849 Old 10-06-2012, 09:46 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markabuckley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,077
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 19
ss9001 I called it a quirk not a bug - and whatever the manual means or not - I'm not sure - but please read the MCACC thread on AVSforum, in particular the link I gave above - as it was where I originally saw this mentioned.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1112470/official-pioneer-mcacc-thread/990#post_17987948

so you are telling me - that on a Pioneer receiver if I set the crossover for my speakers to 50hz, I still get all LFE channel content 50hz and above (I think most people recognize that LFE can extend to 80hz, and in some cases up to the "standard" of 120hz ?) still output to my subwoofer?

I will send Pioneer an email on Monday and confirm in the MCACC thread - as its Offtopic for this thread
markabuckley is offline  
post #282 of 1849 Old 10-06-2012, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ss9001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: metro Atlanta
Posts: 8,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by markabuckley View Post

ss9001 I called it a quirk not a bug - and whatever the manual means or not - I'm not sure - but please read the MCACC thread on AVSforum, in particular the link I gave above - as it was where I originally saw this mentioned.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1112470/official-pioneer-mcacc-thread/990#post_17987948
so you are telling me - that on a Pioneer receiver if I set the crossover for my speakers to 50hz, I still get all LFE channel content 50hz and above (I think most people recognize that LFE can extend to 80hz, and in some cases up to the "standard" of 120hz ?) still output to my subwoofer?
I will send Pioneer an email on Monday and confirm in the MCACC thread - as its Offtopic for this thread

Look I'm not going to waste my Sat debating you. You are not correct. but if you insist on thinking Pioneer cuts off bass above the stated xover freq, you are not only sadly mistaken but showing your own lack of understanding.

If what you say were true, then I should set my xover as high as possible, 200 Hz, so I wouldn't lose anything. And ALL those setting theirs at 80 Hz would be wrong since they would lose everything between 80 - 120 (the LFE cutoff). If you think Pioneer would implement something that F'd up, then you should dump that 59txi now and get something else because if what you say were true, they really have screwed up decoding Dolby, dts, and implementing bass mgmt for years rolleyes.gif

Banter in the MCACC thread - do you believe something over a highly respected qualified company's engineers? Do you think they are stupid?

And if you really really believe - truly believe- that a major CE company would be that stupid, then you shouldn't even be posting here.

What you think is a quirk is just a statement in a manual that could be worded better, like ALL of them. Name one from a mainstream Japanese CE company that's well written & technically concise & I'll buy you a dinner.

Steve
ss9001 is online now  
post #283 of 1849 Old 10-06-2012, 10:10 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markabuckley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,077
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 19
ok fair enough - argument over. I will email Pioneer on Monday to confirm that the crossover does not effect the LFE channel signal - I'm not on here to have arguments with anyone - if you've taken offense I apologise

I do agree with you re manuals, but the Pioneer manuals are far better than their competitors smile.gif
markabuckley is offline  
post #284 of 1849 Old 10-06-2012, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ss9001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: metro Atlanta
Posts: 8,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by markabuckley View Post

so you are telling me - that on a Pioneer receiver if I set the crossover for my speakers to 50hz, I still get all LFE channel content 50hz and above (I think most people recognize that LFE can extend to 80hz, and in some cases up to the "standard" of 120hz ?) still output to my subwoofer?

yes

why would they throw away the freq's? That makes NO sense whatsoever and would have been discovered by all these tests, reviews, and companies like Miller Audio by now.

email to Pioneer - good idea. PM Chris Walker if you like, Walkamo. But be sure you state your question & thinking EXACTLY like you've worded it here. That Pioneer is deleting all bass frequencies SENT TO THE SUB above their crossover in the setup menu. EXACTLY like you're saying so there's no misunderstanding on their part what you mean. Because discussing bass mgmt is complicated & subject to lots of misinterpretation. So I want Pioneer to know EXACTLY what you've been saying is their quirky decoding of Dolby & DTS, and how they redirect bass & LFE to a sub.

That said, there was a discussion years ago - something about whether the LFE should be summed before or after bass management. Some receiver companies implement it the more technically correct way than others. At one time, Pioneer may have summed it the other way. It's been years ago since this discussion and I don't remember the exact meanings, it was too long ago. But, IIRC, if doing it the one way, there was a potential for a gap in the freq's depending on how the sub's own internal Xover were set. But as long as you bypass the sub's own crossover, you'll get the whole LFE band. But that's NOT the same as saying they chop the freq's ABOVE the stated Xover.

Let you post back what you find and we can discuss from there.

Keep in mind, your email is going to be answered by a cust svc person, not an audio engineer but let's see what they send you - as long as you tell them what you think happens when you select a crossover, EXACTLY as you describe it here.

Remember -

the crossover wording in the menu is only for one side of the hi pass/low pass combination. The other side is not stated and one implies it to be the upper limit for the LFE channel, and I think this is where confusion lies....the stated freq is for the side that's sent to the main speakers, not the side that's sent to the sub. I get confused in the semantics myself and have to google the terms to make redface.gif This trips up so many people & confusion is rampant in all these discussions. I'm even out-thinking myself now!

Using your ex, above 50 to the upper limit of LFE is sent to subs, below 50 is sent to Large. The LFE limit is not stated by Pioneer and you can't adjust it. You can adjust it in an $8000 Anthem & I think Onkyo & Denon wink.gif But as we've seen, it's confusing....it would be so EZ for an uninformed owner to pick both sides and get really weak or little bass and wonder what's wrong with their receiver. That's why the post below your link says Pioneer's way is superior and audibly superior even though it's not as snazzy from a marketing perspective wink.gif I've seen this before...marketing before best engineering practice in industries besides audio wink.gif my own for instance tongue.gif

Steve
ss9001 is online now  
post #285 of 1849 Old 10-06-2012, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ss9001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: metro Atlanta
Posts: 8,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by markabuckley View Post

but please read the MCACC thread on AVSforum, in particular the link I gave above - as it was where I originally saw this mentioned.

I did and for several posts.

Steve
ss9001 is online now  
post #286 of 1849 Old 10-06-2012, 10:41 AM
AVS Special Member
 
derrickdj1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,417
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Liked: 140
ss9001 is correct that Pioneer is not cutting off and LFE. The .1 channel is a dedicated channel and will get all the LFE from movies/BD below 120. The xo cuts the frequenciey to the othet speakers, not the subwoofer. All speaker set to small will have bass below the xo summed and sent to the subwoofer.

Klipsch RF 7 based HT 7.4, Pioneer SC 35, Acurus Five 200 amp, Chase SS 18.2(2), VS 18.1(2), Samsung BDP F 7500, Asus/My Book Live HPC 4 TB

Yaquin VK 2100 amp, McIntosh XR 5 speakers, Samsung BDP F 7500
derrickdj1 is offline  
post #287 of 1849 Old 10-06-2012, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ss9001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: metro Atlanta
Posts: 8,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 285
OK marka, after derrick's excellent summary, I hope this doesn't add more confusion but here we go, I'll give the technical terminology a try -

Wiki & google

"A low-pass filter is an electronic filter that passes low-frequency signals but attenuates (reduces the amplitude of) signals with frequencies higher than the cutoff frequency."

"A high-pass filter (HPF) is an electronic filter that passes high-frequency signals but attenuates (reduces the amplitude of) signals with frequencies lower than the cutoff frequency."

"These "high", "low", and "band" terms refer to frequencies. In high-pass, you try to remove low frequencies. In low-pass, you try to remove high. In band pass, you only allow a continuous frequency range to remain."

"By far the most frequent purpose for using a filter is extracting either the low-frequency or the high-frequency portion of an audio signal, attenuating the rest. This is accomplished using a low-pass or high-pass filter."

"A band-pass filter is a combination of a low-pass and a high-pass."

Let's see if I can describe this right (ccotenj - where are you when I need you smile.gif)

Pick 50 Hz

High pass filter to Large or Sub - frequencies lower than the setting given in Pioneer's menu are cut / reduced so the speakers can't reproduce them & sent to the sub - < 50 is cut from the speakers

Low pass filter to the sub - frequencies greater than the cutoff are cut from the sub. This is the internal setting in the sub or can be in the receiver, some are adjustable, some aren't, that cuts freq's > its internal Xover from being reproduced. Pioneer does not give you control over their internal cut-off, while others, for marketing reasons, have. You alluded to this with Denon.

I now think what you've done is think the "50" in the setup menu is that cut-off freq for the low pass side. It's not, it's the high pass side, the part being cut from the speakers, not the sub.

derrick is right -

Bass to Sub = High passed bass summed from speakers + all of the LFE track

I apologize for getting frustrated with your posts, since this is hard work trying to dig & understand this.

It's confusing but I assure you, that Pioneer is sending frequencies > Pioneer Xover to the sub, you don't lose anything

I know this for a FACT, not interpretating the manuals, because I have a Velodyne sub with parametric EQ. Trust me - the sub is getting ALL bass from 15 Hz all the way to 200 Hz. It's own internal cut-off prevents those higher freq's > 120 from being reproduced.

enjoy your weekend

but I wouldn't disregard this receiver over this because it's a non-issue.

Steve
ss9001 is online now  
post #288 of 1849 Old 10-06-2012, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ss9001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: metro Atlanta
Posts: 8,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

ss9001 is correct that Pioneer is not cutting off and LFE. The .1 channel is a dedicated channel and will get all the LFE from movies/BD below 120. The xo cuts the frequenciey to the othet speakers, not the subwoofer. All speaker set to small will have bass below the xo summed and sent to the subwoofer.

thank you smile.gif

I just couldn't get my mind wrapped on how best to explain it to marka (I admit I was pretty frustrated redface.gif) and you've summarized it far better than my attempts. Xover is on the speakers not the sub....I must remember that phrase 'cause a whole lot of folks get confused, including me redface.gif I have to think thru the technical terminology and what does what. I know how bass mgmt works stuff instinctively but have a hard time writing it down to explain it.

I hope our posts help him believe that Pioneer is doing it right because it's a shame if it doesn't & he continues to believe otherwise.

Steve
ss9001 is online now  
post #289 of 1849 Old 10-06-2012, 11:29 AM
 
HiFiFun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,209
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Does anyone know if Pioneer will be upgrading the SC-65-67-68 to be able to generate the FH & FW channels simultaneously?
I've looked at the three owners manuals and the surround sound capability is similar or nearly so.

Quote: "bit of an update.. Talked with pioneer technician today. I asked him how come they introduced sc-68 without being able to do neo x 11.x . He informed me that sc-68 will be able to do that ether out of the box or with firmware update. I asked about sc-57 and he said the chip on the board will not be able to do 11.x so no luck if you have sc-57 ..it will only do 9.x neo x . so as of now (editor: not true) pioneer sc-68 and onkyo 5010 are 11.x neo x capable. Still waiting on denon 4520 spec."
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1305065/dts-neo-x/300#post_22256137
HiFiFun is offline  
post #290 of 1849 Old 10-06-2012, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ss9001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: metro Atlanta
Posts: 8,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 285
^^
don't know but I'll add to my list to try to find out

Steve
ss9001 is online now  
post #291 of 1849 Old 10-06-2012, 03:05 PM
 
HiFiFun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,209
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

^^
don't know but I'll add to my list to try to find out
I currently have the SC-61 and have gone through the trouble to audition the width and the height. I like them both.
The SC-61 only has the capability to decode/generate one of the three (Width, Height or Back)

Because of firmware limitations, the SC-65-66-68 allows either the Back & Height or Back & Width.
That is two out of three. Close but still no cigar!

Remember we are talking of using all of the Pioneers 9 amplifier channels and then adding two separate amplified speakers using the Pioneers pre-amp outputs to get the full 11.
If Pioneer doesn't release a firmware update then they better darn well add two more class D amplifier channels for next year.
No firmware update, then no purchase this year...

These receivers do have a Software Update feature, so it should be convenient to upgrade.
The ball is in Pioneer's court.
Thanks!
HiFiFun is offline  
post #292 of 1849 Old 10-07-2012, 05:44 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
ccotenj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: the toxic waste dumps of new jersey
Posts: 21,915
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 89
^^^

on at least 2 of the models, all the firmware updates in the world won't make hardware within the box magically exist... hint: it's not a number of amplifiers "issue"...


re: the xover discussion... there was a time in the past where it worked the way mark is describing it... this was changed awhile ago...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

ccotenj is offline  
post #293 of 1849 Old 10-07-2012, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ss9001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: metro Atlanta
Posts: 8,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 285
Thanks, chris for straightening "us" (me) out smile.gif

OK - IIRC, what you say maybe part of what I remember out of discussions (but couldn't quite recall the details in my head:)) from years ago, like ~5-7 yrs ago wink.gif about companies implementing in a way where

Subwoofer = crossed (redirected bass) + LFE

or

Subwoofer = crossed (redirected bass + LFE)

IOW, whether LFE was added before or after the crossover. I hope I have this right. IIRC, 1st way was the technically correct way and at least some of Pioneer & other company's models did it the 2nd way, losing some of the LFE frequencies because they wouldn't be reproduced by either the sub or the speakers. Some of this comes back to me now redface.gif

But, like you say, this was quite awhile and many DSP iterations ago.

Marka -
I now understand why you asked & apologize for jumping on you smile.gif

I still stand by the fact that this was years ago, IIRC, back in your era with the 59TXi & before with several mfgs who had implemented it this way in their lower cost consumer models, not the flagships or top models. And it's certainly not an issue now.

And I swear to you that with the 59TXI & maybe the 49TXI before it (can't remember what I had when I bought the Velodyne sub), I had full bass and no lost freq's. based on a real freq response curve displayed by their built-in parametric EQ. I've got all the measurements with the 59TXI on a spreadsheet.

No hard feelings, I hope.

Problem I have is I followed so many of these detailed, technical posts & articles since 2003, and I just have a harder time recalling what & when I read something 8 & 9 yrs ago eek.gif

I don't know if anybody remembers forum member "Gordon MacGregor" - he used to post long discussions with all these links to technical articles backing up his points, and discussions would go on for literally pages...at one time he did op-amp & other mods to the 49 & 59txi. His real name is Alex Strigenov and he was quite the poster...used to get into it with a lot of old time posters, long debates. My head would swim from all the technical jargon, chip & DAC product numbers, he & others bandied about. Fascinating reading & learned things but I sure couldn't recall details now eek.gif He had a website database for several years but it's long gone.

Sometimes I miss those debates...maybe I'm trying to carry on the tradition wink.gif

I still think it's time for you to get a new receiver, though wink.giftongue.gif

time for my wife & I to enjoy our Sunday plans smile.gif

Steve
ss9001 is online now  
post #294 of 1849 Old 10-07-2012, 09:02 AM
 
HiFiFun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,209
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
on at least 2 of the models, all the firmware updates in the world won't make hardware within the box magically exist... hint: it's not a number of amplifiers "issue"...
re: the xover discussion... there was a time in the past where it worked the way mark is describing it... this was changed awhile ago...

The issue for this year is NOT the amplifier issue. For next year, to prove the superiority of its Class D technology, Pioneer should up the amplifier channels to eleven.
The competitions power output drops dramatically with number of channels driven. With less components and less heat, Pioneer should be able to pull this off, at least with their top-of-the-line unit.

Again, for this year, I've compared the DSP processing as described for the SC-65-68. Lets examine the back panels.

SC-65: right click to open in a new window

SC-68


Looks like the surround sound pre-amps output and the amplifier terminals are identical. The surround sound capabilities described in owners manual are identical or nearly so.
Feel free to respond with tangible internal differences without resorting to hints.
Note: Please disregard the nice looking copper screws smile.gif
HiFiFun is offline  
post #295 of 1849 Old 10-07-2012, 07:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
derrickdj1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,417
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Liked: 140
One easy way to help keep things straight for bass management is the view the .1 channel as a production channel for LFE and view the subwoofer as a playback channel. The avrs xo setting determines what is played back from the sub. Modern bass management assumes one is using a line level(RCA) input. This will eliminate the subs filters which should not be in play if the sub's xo is off or all the way up.

Klipsch RF 7 based HT 7.4, Pioneer SC 35, Acurus Five 200 amp, Chase SS 18.2(2), VS 18.1(2), Samsung BDP F 7500, Asus/My Book Live HPC 4 TB

Yaquin VK 2100 amp, McIntosh XR 5 speakers, Samsung BDP F 7500
derrickdj1 is offline  
post #296 of 1849 Old 10-07-2012, 08:41 PM
Advanced Member
 
ibre34's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 682
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I just bought an SC-68 and I am very happy with it but I have a question

I have a 7.1 setup with surround back speakers and I have toruble determininig the speakes setup because the options are

- 7.2 channel surround system & speakers B connection
(I don't have a speaker B connection)

- 7.2 channel surround system & front bi-amping connection
(I am not bi-amping)

- 7.2 channel surround system (surround back) & Zone 2 connection
(I don't have a zone 2 connection)

- 7.2 channel surround system (front height/wide) & Zone 2 connection
(I don't have a zone 2 connection)

so.. whish one is the best for me? I chose 7.2 channel surround system (surround back) & Zone 2 connection but I am not sure... can you help me?

Thanks in advance....
ibre34 is offline  
post #297 of 1849 Old 10-08-2012, 03:09 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ss9001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: metro Atlanta
Posts: 8,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibre34 View Post

I just bought an SC-68 and I am very happy with it...I am not sure... can you help me? Thanks in advance....

First, congratulations! smile.gif glad you're enjoying it.

actually, ibre, any of the above will work - any speakers you haven't connected just get ignored. Out of the list, I'd probably pick the 1st wink.gif but you could pick any of them and it wouldn't make a difference to the main 7.1 setup.

and not to confuse you any more, but you could actually choose the 9.2 FH/FW/Back option and when MCACC is run, it'll set the FH/FW speakers to No.

and you can always go back & change it if you add additional speakers later. if you ever decide to add height/wide speakers, you'd have to re-run MCACC anyway. but since MCACC has no effect on a zone 2 or B speakers in another room, if you added them, you wouldn't have to re-run MCACC in that case.

the only thing you will see as a consequence of choosing a 7.2 option vs. the 9.2 option is Dolby PLIIz will not appear as a surround mode choice with 7.2's, which makes sense since you don't have 'em anyway. But, if you did select 9.2, IIz will show up; but with heights set to No, IIz wouldn't matter anyway.

for your situation, a 7.2 option makes sense, but I wanted to let you know why you won't see IIz in your surround modes. I found this out myself & proved that it's there when I changed to the 9.2 setup with no ht/width speakers connected....just trying things out wink.gif

Steve
ss9001 is online now  
post #298 of 1849 Old 10-08-2012, 04:53 AM
Senior Member
 
vivatech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: VA
Posts: 212
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 15
I've got a huge living room/open floor plan and there aren't that many Ultra2 receivers available. The SC-68 is inching its way into my short list.

I'm very new to AVRs with multiple zones. Can the SC-68 send different video content to each zone at the same time? Any limitations?
vivatech is offline  
post #299 of 1849 Old 10-08-2012, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
ss9001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: metro Atlanta
Posts: 8,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by vivatech View Post

Can the SC-68 send different video content to each zone at the same time? Any limitations?

yes & not many. The only limitation is on the zone 4 HDMI output - can't select HDMI 6 or 7 for zone 4. Other than that, you can select different sources for ea zone at same time. The only one I have personally tried is the Zone 4 HDMI and it work as claimed - one source in main room and another sent to z 4. And of course, zone 2 & 3 are analog video, not HDMI. Zone 4 is the HDMI sub-zone.


Steve
ss9001 is online now  
post #300 of 1849 Old 10-08-2012, 10:44 AM
 
HiFiFun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,209
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
The Pioneer product support checked with the SC Receiver Product Manager about adding processing for 11 channels instead of nine.
Other consumers have already been inquiring too. The home office in Japan answer is not-going-to-happen.

That is, the 2012 Pioneer SC -65-67-68 receivers can only decode nine channels. Period. So going from 9 to 11 channels using the pre-amp outputs (like the latest Onyko’s) is not possible this year.

In a way I'm glad to wait until next year just to read the new owners manuals as the current channels limitation is tortureous to follow.
Here is an example going from nine to eleven channels with only 9 internal amplifiers:
HiFiFun is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Tags
Pioneer , Pioneer Elite Sc 67 9 2 Channel Thx Select 2 Plus A V Receiver , Pioneer Elite Sc 68 9 2 Channel Thx Ultra 2 Plus A V Receiver , Receivers Amplifiers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off