Official Pioneer SC-68/67 Thread - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 1848 Old 10-23-2012, 04:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

...I'll follow up on how the Pioneer's stack up when I set up my new SC-67 + 8033Cinema later this week.

Film...nice to have you in a Pio hread again smile.gif
looking forward to your comparisons and also how well the 8033 works with the Pioneer.

more later this week...

Steve
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post #362 of 1848 Old 10-23-2012, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

Film...nice to have you in a Pio hread again smile.gif
looking forward to your comparisons and also how well the 8033 works with the Pioneer.
more later this week...

Same here I value his reviews of equipment and opinions.
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post #363 of 1848 Old 10-23-2012, 08:53 AM
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Thanks for the response on this.
I was concerned that there might be an issue with the output given the 12db difference between the pioneer and the yamaha. Sounds like it's a non-issue so I'll continue with the setup and evaluation.
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post #364 of 1848 Old 10-23-2012, 05:42 PM
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Just bought a SC-68 to replace my SC-57. Also bought another RF remote (remote has the reciever readout) for the SC-68. Reason is more stable for my JTR speakers which are 4 ohm and virtual wide use. I will move the SC-57 to my Polk RT5000p setup in the living room for TV. The current Denon 4311ci that is in the living room, I will sell.
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post #365 of 1848 Old 10-23-2012, 06:17 PM
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Hey bsoko2-- So you are willing to give up the 4311 with it's Audyssey XT32? Just picking. smile.gif
Seriously, I would be interested in your opinion of MCACC vs Audyssey. I have an old Elite 49TX and considering the SC68 or the new Denon 4520. I have an Antimode 8033 Cinema and have no idea if it makes up for the lack of sub correction as implemented by Audyssey. Can't say that it made a big difference to my 49TX.
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post #366 of 1848 Old 10-23-2012, 07:32 PM
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I've been encountering a problem with my 67. I've found that if I haven't used it for a few days the receiver will lock up when I turn it on. Normally when I power on the receiver, it puts out a 1080p signal to the TV just by itself. During the times it locks up, it won't put out the signal, I won't get any feed from my components and it won't shut off right away when I try to power down. I can't even get the receiver menu to display on my TV. Basically the receiver just freezes and I can't do anything unless I shut it off and then power it back on. Any idea what's going on?

I also want to clarify. If you have just your TV on with no components, is the receiver supposed to be putting out its own video signal? I thought turning video conversion and OSD off would stop it from doing so but even with them off, the receiver puts out a video signal that my TV is receiving as 1080p.
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post #367 of 1848 Old 10-23-2012, 07:35 PM
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You can make more adjustments on the fly via the iControlAV2 app with the SC-57 then what Denon offers with it's app. Audyssey is not as natural with SQ as MCACC, but this is just me. Audyssey is suposed to be the EQ fix for any room but MCACC was desinged by folks who record and work in a studio setting, Air Studios in London, England. Rooms are different and one fix for all won't work for all. MCACC allows you to adjust it's settings on the fly and you can store up to 6 presets for any room situation. I too use the Anti Mode for my 3 Submersives.


JMO, Bill
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post #368 of 1848 Old 10-23-2012, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

.... MCACC was desinged by folks who record and work in a studio setting, Air Studios in London, England.

Just for clarification that is not true.

AIR Studios certification is just that.. a certification.

They didn't design anything. smile.gif

My understanding is that the engineers from Pioneer do take the products they want to certify to the studio and make on the fly changes so as to obtain certification.. but MCACC is most definitely a Pioneer creation.
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AIR Studios Tuning is a benchmark of high fidelity sound. What it means is that engineers from AIR Studios have put the system through rigorous tuning, determined to deliver audio output that is as pure and precise to the original as possible.
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post #369 of 1848 Old 10-23-2012, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Just for clarification that is not true.
AIR Studios certification is just that.. a certification.
They didn't design anything. smile.gif
My understanding is that the engineers from Pioneer do take the products they want to certify to the studio and make on the fly changes so as to obtain certification.. but MCACC is most definitely a Pioneer creation.

Thanx. I do however prefer the SQ of MCACC over Audyssey XT32. And I do use my recieveers as prepros with Sunfire amps.
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post #370 of 1848 Old 10-24-2012, 03:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikirik View Post

I've been encountering a problem with my 67. I've found that if I haven't used it for a few days the receiver will lock up when I turn it on. Normally when I power on the receiver, it puts out a 1080p signal to the TV just by itself. During the times it locks up, it won't put out the signal

you may be getting some problems with HDMI Control and particular TV. worth a try....turn off HDMI Control and see if it works OK then. HDMI Control has been a quirky feature to implement, it seems.

don't know if this is a fix but like I said, worth a try.. turning video converter off may not have been needed, in any case.

Steve
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post #371 of 1848 Old 10-24-2012, 03:43 AM - Thread Starter
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nice to see more new owners smile.gif
congrats!!

Steve
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post #372 of 1848 Old 10-24-2012, 03:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterK View Post

Hey bsoko2-- So you are willing to give up the 4311 with it's Audyssey XT32? Just picking. smile.gif
Seriously, I would be interested in your opinion of MCACC vs Audyssey. I have an old Elite 49TX and considering the SC68 or the new Denon 4520. I have an Antimode 8033 Cinema and have no idea if it makes up for the lack of sub correction as implemented by Audyssey. Can't say that it made a big difference to my 49TX.

antimode with the Pioneer should be a good combination. comparisons with multi32xt are definitely interesting and like to read them.

Steve
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post #373 of 1848 Old 10-24-2012, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

you may be getting some problems with HDMI Control and particular TV. worth a try....turn off HDMI Control and see if it works OK then. HDMI Control has been a quirky feature to implement, it seems.
don't know if this is a fix but like I said, worth a try.. turning video converter off may not have been needed, in any case.

I've had HDMI control off since I've initially set it up. My TV is an older set (Sharp LC42D72U, 2007) and it doesn't have HDMI control. Like you've mentioned though, could it be a particular the particular combination of the 67 and my TV? Maybe it gives me an excuse to by a more current television.tongue.gif

Last night I tried cycling through more options that I thought might be relevant. I changed the signal select to HDMI instead of auto. I also changed some things for the input assign so that it wouldn't be looking for any other connection other than HDMI. Lastly, I changed the HDMI output to 1 instead of ALL. I figured having more direct settings would help so the receiver doesn't have to do so much automatic toggling, for example 'sensing' HDMI outputs 1 and 2 for which one has a connection when set to ALL.

If this doesn't work, I could try using HDMI output 2 which doesn't have HDMI control. Anything else I would be missing if using output 2 instead? Thanks in advance for your help again.
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post #374 of 1848 Old 10-24-2012, 10:11 AM
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Setting up my 67 and considering different connection options. One option is to connect the TV directly to the cable box and the DVD player via HDMI, and then connect the audio signal from the cable box and DVD player directly to the receiver via a digital cable. I would use this option to circumvent the receiver for the video signal, and to enable TV only viewing with TV audio. The question is if I route the audio signal to the receiver via this means, is the audio signal into the receiver any different or of a lesser quality than if it is sent over an HDMI cable with the video? Thanks.
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post #375 of 1848 Old 10-24-2012, 10:20 AM
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^^^

for cable tv/dvd, no... although you may introduce lip-sync issues...

that being said, you spent a bunch of money on an avr and (i'm assuming) speakers... personally, i would use them...

- chris

 

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post #376 of 1848 Old 10-24-2012, 10:27 AM
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^^^
for cable tv/dvd, no... although you may introduce lip-sync issues...
that being said, you spent a bunch of money on an avr and (i'm assuming) speakers... personally, i would use them...

Thanks for the quick response. Good to know these two audio connections are equal in quality.
Definitely plan on using the AVR and speakers - just trying to create the flexibility to use the TV without the AVR late at night, and to ensure the video signal is not compromised in any way (even with the v.conv. in the AVR turned to off).
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post #377 of 1848 Old 10-24-2012, 10:31 AM
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^^^

you are welcome... smile.gif

to the best of my knowledge, the avr does not molest the video on passthrough... "most" don't molest it, although onkyo hasn't quite mastered this yet...

for example, i can easily be described as "picky" about video... redface.gif i pass it all through my avr (not a pio at this time) and feed my radiance video processor from that... it makes life much simpler in terms of switching, etc.

- chris

 

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post #378 of 1848 Old 10-25-2012, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman81 View Post

Thanks alot for this thread and all your posts. I have been in the market for a receiver for over a month, strongly considering the elite 67/68. Once I found this thread I had all the information I needed and purchased the 67 last week. I went for the 67 because the price was half that of the 68 because all the amazon online retailers are discounting it, and BB now matches on line prices so the value was too good to pass on. I am replacing an old Yamaha HTR 5660. The first thing I did was hook up my KEF 104/2 speakers to test and compare the stereo between the two receivers. I was surprised to find that I needed to set the volume setting higher on the elite than on the yamaha to get the same level of sound/volume output - ie, referencing the -db setting displayed by the receivers. The yamaha is rated at 90 watts/channel vs the elite at 140 (and the relative difference is the same for 8,6,4 ohm speakers) the KEFs are 4 ohm. I would think it would take a lower setting on the elite to reach the same output as the yamaha, so this doesn't make any sense to me, but I'm realtively new to this. Can you guys help me understand why this would be? Thanks.

Because matching volume settings on most AVR's wont't be expected to give the same SPL output except for two scenarios:

1. THX receivers.

2. Audyssey receivers.

The idea is that when listening at 0db on THX and/or Audyssey systems, you are listening at reference...

Be aware, though, that differences in mastering levels, program level, dialog norm settings, etc, can make that a bit loud for most to listen at comfortably.

THX receivers are designed to negate the dialog norm offset, so 0 should be 0...

On my Denon 4311, I have found that material that I mixed tends to be at "reference" around -12 > -8 db...

Other than having those two features, most AVR's volume values aren't useful except as a relative gauge for output.



I thought that THX receivers assumed that the most common value of DD Dialnorm (DN=-27) was being used, and they added 4 dB of gain to offset that to get "reference level" sound playback levels. However, if no dialnorm was used (DN=-31) then the audio would playback at 4 dB above "reference level". The Dialnorm Offset would read +4 dB which implies that you are running 4 dB hot. Not sure if the AVR will actually adust that volume for you by itself.

Not sure how that translates to DTS program and DTS "reference level".

My own non THX receiver just gives me the direct DD Dialnorm value (DN=-31 for no volume reduction) that is read off the DD stream.
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post #379 of 1848 Old 10-26-2012, 08:59 AM
 
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Every owner should be familiar with Pioneer Main Speaker Application Menu: ([A], [ B], [C], [D], [E], [F], ([G], [H], [ I], [J])

So how does this relate to the Pioneer pre-amp outputs? Currently is a very messy and severely constrained situation.

In the simplest case ALL Pioneer amplifiers can be turned off and every pre-amp output select in the Speaker Application [A] menu will generate sound. (However because of legacy DSP processing limitations, the Front Height cannot be enabled at the simultaneously with the Front Width).

But what about the in-between combinations?
This is where the Pioneer becomes severely constrained. Let’s say you want to use some Pioneer amplifiers and then use the pre-amp outputs for other channels.
This means is you wish to use all the pre-amp channels you cannot bi-amp. That is, if Speaker Application [C] is selected (bi-amp the front channels), the Pioneer disables the Front Height & the Font Width channels, in both the menus and the pre-amp outputs. Technically this is JUST a relay switch internally, yet four valuable surround channels are disabled.
This is why the pre-amp outputs are hardly mentioned in the owner’s manual.

External Amplifier Input Jack Solution
The premise being an amplifier does not care which channel it is amplifying.

A long, long time ago in a galaxy far away, receivers included both pre-amp outputs and an external amplifier inputs. The was a shorting jack between them which could be removed to match your systems configuration of external amplifiers and speakers.

This solution would offer complete flexibility and eliminate the confusing menus and documentation. In fact this is a Pioneer solution from 30 years ago.eek.gif
Receiver manufactures would simply re-appropriate the unused analog jacks as EXT AMP inputs.

The DSP would processes the defined channels all-the-time to the pre-amp outputs. Pioneer receivers would trace back to their original DNA in allowing the flexibility of separates but in one chassis. Remarkable!
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post #380 of 1848 Old 10-26-2012, 12:05 PM
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Don't know if all the Elite receivers were the same as my 49TX. On mine, pulling the shorting pins disables the headphone jack for some strange reason.
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post #381 of 1848 Old 10-26-2012, 01:29 PM
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Just recently purchased a SC67.
First stereo purchase in 25 years....super excited. smile.gif
Kinda of a noob though with all the changes that have happened over the years.


anyway, I thought i'd review my CD ripping quality standards with the view of eventually
moving all of these audio files to a NAS...where storage space might not be as important.

Most of my music library is in iTunes as MP3 and was ripped at 128/160 kbps on an ipod classic.
So I thought I'd rip some cd's at 320kbps with high VBR and even apple lossless.

I was dumbfounded when I couldn't hear any difference.

I'm playing this music from a laptop connected to receiver on DVD input (for now) via HDMI cable.

No matter which file I play the audio input screen on my icontrolAV2012 app says PCM 48kHz.
Is there a limiting factor that I'm not aware of?
Shouldn't I be able to hear a difference?
Maybe new ears???

thx in advance.
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post #382 of 1848 Old 10-26-2012, 02:02 PM
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^^^

well, many people have spent many hours developing those compression schemes... wink.gif

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #383 of 1848 Old 10-26-2012, 03:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterK View Post

Don't know if all the Elite receivers were the same as my 49TX. On mine, pulling the shorting pins disables the headphone jack for some strange reason.

not all smile.gif only the top line models, like your 49 & the 59txi. and even then it was only for the fronts.
despite all the wishing for this feature, few home theater AVR's ever had it.

I used the 49, 59 & SC-09 with an ext amp for the fronts & none of them had a "turn off amp" button. Even with the 10 ch 09, I set it up as Normal 9.1 and let the un-used amps, well, go un-used wink.gif All these flagships had the ext jumper, which I removed so I could use the front 2 preamp outputs.

Some top flagship vintage stereo receivers, like the vaunted hi-power Sansui's & Pioneer's in the late 70's & early 80's may have had jumpers but this was so they could be de-coupled as "separates". There was a true 300/450 RMS watt 8/4 ohm class A amp Sansui, the G-33000, which was even built like separates, 2 sections coupled together which were connected by rca cables and could be separated & stacked like a preamp/amp combination. It's specs would make ANY flagship AVR today sit up & take notice cool.gif, vanishingly low THD and awesome real power reserves. But no one builds multichannel receivers like that anywhere, even the mighty Pio SC-09 or Denon's 5805, couldn't match its 2 channel power. But that was in a day when companies could build and profit from cost-no-object statement pieces, not in this economy.

Be thankful there is a preamp mode of any kind from any of the companies; Pioneer is not unique...all are equally "constrained" in this area. Adding more relays & menu complexity to make selected amps turn on/off is money better spent on more useful features, IMO, which could contribute more to sound quality & usefulness to far more owners.

some people can obsess over amp turn-off & other items that aren't that important like "I'm only using 5.1 which spkr setting should I use?" hint - it really doesn't matter, the unused amps aren't going to "do any harm". I have the 68 set up as 9.2 when I only have 7.2 connected. And none of my AVR's set up this way smoked, blew fuses or couldn't keep up wink.gif just my opinion...

I'm posting this not to disagree with the idea of having flexible amp turn-off mode, but in the end, how much does it matter? if Pioneer spent the cash to provide it, they'd have to charge more, even if it's $50-100 more, with not much benefit. I'd rather they spend the money on something important, like providing new features in MCACC so everyone benefits - regardless of which amps we choose not to use. I know that "theoretically" turning them off (commonly called prepro mode) is supposed to reduce noise and distortion but we're already down to nearly if not inaudible levels, so in the scheme of things, a user putting more emphasis on bettering his room acoustics or speakers is going to be FAR better ahead than worried if leaving an amp on raises THD from 0.01 % to 0.02%, reduces S/N ratio 1- 2 dB, or decreases total power a few watts wink.gif

just saying smile.gif

Steve
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post #384 of 1848 Old 10-26-2012, 03:24 PM
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^^^

the guru is spot on... smile.gif

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #385 of 1848 Old 10-26-2012, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jammer11 View Post

I'm playing this music from a laptop connected to receiver on DVD input (for now) via HDMI cable.
No matter which file I play the audio input screen on my icontrolAV2012 app says PCM 48kHz.
Is there a limiting factor that I'm not aware of?
Shouldn't I be able to hear a difference?
Maybe new ears???
thx in advance.

If you're using Windows, there's a setting that establishes the bit depth and sampling rate of PCM audio, as your PC gets to combine multiple audio streams (such as your music and general desktop sounds, for example) into one combined PCM stream. If your content is at a different bit depth or sampling rate than what is selected, it will be re-sampled. You can change the default bit depth and sampling rate, but as far as I know there isn't any way to have it automatically adjust based upon your content.
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post #386 of 1848 Old 10-26-2012, 07:20 PM
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Thanks Flash, I'll look in windows for PCM audio settings.
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post #387 of 1848 Old 10-26-2012, 07:42 PM
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Thanks Flash, I'll look in windows for PCM audio settings.

This is what you're after.

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post #388 of 1848 Old 10-27-2012, 02:49 AM - Thread Starter
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^^
perfect!

Steve
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post #389 of 1848 Old 10-29-2012, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman81 View Post

Thanks for the quick response. Good to know these two audio connections are equal in quality.
Definitely plan on using the AVR and speakers - just trying to create the flexibility to use the TV without the AVR late at night, and to ensure the video signal is not compromised in any way (even with the v.conv. in the AVR turned to off).
ccotenj - on the same topic, another option I've tried is to route the video signal from the cable box directly to the tv via an HDMI cable, and then connect the receiver to the tv via another HDMI that supports ARC. This gives me the flexibility to use the tv stand alone or with the receiver. Is the audio signal via this method compromised or degraded at all vs sending it directly from the cable box? Thanks
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post #390 of 1848 Old 10-29-2012, 06:50 AM
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^^^

it depends on the display... some will pass through a full dd 5.1 signal, others will downmix it to 2 channel...

sorry, i know that's not a real definitive answer...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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