Official Pioneer SC-68/67 Thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 1846 Old 11-26-2012, 09:09 AM
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Need some help from fellow 67 owners and even 68 owners. When you power on the avr, does it output a video signal to your TV on its own? I have video conversion and the OSD set to OFF.

Basically

1. Turn TV on. None of your components should be on (cable box, blue ray ,etc)
2. Power on AVR and wait until it is completely on. The display on the avr should say what input it is currently on followed by stereo or any other sound field that was assigned. Video conversion and OSD should be off.
3. Video signal is detected by TV and the TV displays this (upper right corner on most TVs.).

I have an older 21txh and it does not do this. Also I'm suspecting it may be the reason my 67 freezes from time to time right after I power it on. If anyone can try this and give me some input it would be appreciated.
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post #452 of 1846 Old 11-26-2012, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikirik View Post

Need some help from fellow 67 owners and even 68 owners. When you power on the avr, does it output a video signal to your TV on its own? I have video conversion and the OSD set to OFF.
Basically
1. Turn TV on. None of your components should be on (cable box, blue ray ,etc)
2. Power on AVR and wait until it is completely on. The display on the avr should say what input it is currently on followed by stereo or any other sound field that was assigned. Video conversion and OSD should be off.
3. Video signal is detected by TV and the TV displays this (upper right corner on most TVs.).
I have an older 21txh and it does not do this. Also I'm suspecting it may be the reason my 67 freezes from time to time right after I power it on. If anyone can try this and give me some input it would be appreciated.
I believe the answer to your question is yes - it does connect to the TV and establish the video connection. I guess that would technically qualify for outputing a signal, even though nothing is being displayed. On my TV, there is a floating box that says "no signal received..." if the TV is turned on without the AVR on. However this box disappears when the AVR is turned on (without the cable or bluray turned on) indicating the tv is detecting a signal from the avr - sc67.
Hope this helps, good luck.
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post #453 of 1846 Old 11-26-2012, 10:32 AM
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Thanks for getting back to me on that iceman. I'm guessing you also have video conversion off as well as the on screen display? Looks like it outputs something regardless.

Well, I'm still stuck finding out why my 67 freezes randomly after power on. Perhaps it may be a bad handshake with my TV as it ends up not outputting that signal I asked about.

I know my 67 is going to freeze when the signal is not detected by my TV, it always happens when that is the case. I hope this can be fixed with firmware. I don't have a newer TV to test it out on either. My TV is a 2007 Sharp so it may be a case of bad electronics compatibility. I really don't know eek.gif
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post #454 of 1846 Old 11-26-2012, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scbartling View Post

I'll copy something I put on another thread to see if I can spur some thoughts from the Pioneer folks.

Thanks for posting this, very informative.

For me, the decision between Denon 4520 and Pioneer SC-68 comes down to:
  1. Better sound management with Denon (lack of sub support is a real problem, Audyssey better than MCMMAC).
  2. D-amps with Pioneer (energy efficiency is a big plus).


One thing that surprises me: if Pioneer has a better reputation for reliability, why do they have a 2-year warranty while the Denon AVR has a 3-year warranty? Better marketing brains at Denon?

Any chance these manufacturers will eventually open source their firmware, so fans can write their own firmware? That would be a true game-changer.

Would like to hear from Pio fans. Should this be x-posted to the Denon thread, which seems more active?
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post #455 of 1846 Old 11-26-2012, 11:06 AM
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Hooking up TY-CC20 Camera to 65" Panasonic Viera TC-P65VT30 . I understand it only works when camera USB connected to TV. I am trying to get camera (skype) sound to my Pioneer Elite SC-67 reciever but having no luck. Have connected optical cable from digital audio out of TV to optical In of reciever. Still no sound from reciever. Do get sound from TV but have TV speakers set to off due to use of reciever speakers. Any ideas?

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post #456 of 1846 Old 11-26-2012, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikirik View Post

Thanks for getting back to me on that iceman. I'm guessing you also have video conversion off as well as the on screen display? Looks like it outputs something regardless.
Well, I'm still stuck finding out why my 67 freezes randomly after power on. Perhaps it may be a bad handshake with my TV as it ends up not outputting that signal I asked about.
I know my 67 is going to freeze when the signal is not detected by my TV, it always happens when that is the case. I hope this can be fixed with firmware. I don't have a newer TV to test it out on either. My TV is a 2007 Sharp so it may be a case of bad electronics compatibility. I really don't know eek.gif
Good luck, and the answer is yes re video conversion and OSD. My guess is that your suspicion is correct and it has to do with an older tv and the handshake issue. I had 2006 Panasonic that had trouble with the continuity of the signal from the cable box via HDMI. Had comcast out, they spent a lot of time diagnosing it, switching boxes, and finally determined it was the handshake issue eminating from the tv after eliminating everything else. Would be great if you could get/borrow a newer tv just to prove or rule this out, or if there is a firmware fix but many times the hardware installed can't be updated completely with the newest technology. I know HDMI has gone through a few revisions/upgrades over the years. Another thought would be to connect the tv via component video cables and see if it changes anything - I'm not certain on this, but would assume the video signal is sent via this route as well? I ended up connecting my old Panasonic via RGB and audio cables to circumvent the handshake issue.
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post #457 of 1846 Old 11-26-2012, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wcmartin View Post

Hooking up TY-CC20 Camera to 65" Panasonic Viera TC-P65VT30 . I understand it only works when camera USB connected to TV. I am trying to get camera (skype) sound to my Pioneer Elite SC-67 reciever but having no luck. Have connected optical cable from digital audio out of TV to optical In of reciever. Still no sound from reciever. Do get sound from TV but have TV speakers set to off due to use of reciever speakers. Any ideas?

hmmm....

is the digital opt input on the receiver assigned to the same TV input?
the default setting for the type of audio used for an input is Auto meaning it will automatically select in order or priority: HDMI, digital & analog. but sometimes you may have to manually choose the one to use. Try manually setting it to digital using the remote Signal Sel key.

you may also want to turn HDMI Control off in the setup menu just in case it's interfering with input selection. If you get it to work with it off, you can try turning it back on and see what happens. the default setting is on.

if you get sound from the camera to the TV's speakers, the receiver should be getting it from the TV's dig output, providing 1) the receiver is set correctly 2) the TV's dig out is set correctly and most importantly 3) the signal isn't available as a digital signal inside the TV's pass-through circuitry. it's possible that once it's transferred past the USB circuits, its converted to analog and the TV cannot do an analog to digital conversion back again. Depending on your TV the dig out connection may only work with dig coax/opt inputs not transposed from a USB source.

Steve
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post #458 of 1846 Old 11-26-2012, 11:52 AM
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I had the same issue when connecting my HD Cable box to my 68 the other day. The 'auto' signal wasn't picking it up and I had to change the input with the remote to 'digital' in order to hear sound.
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post #459 of 1846 Old 11-26-2012, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iceman81 View Post

Good luck, and the answer is yes re video conversion and OSD. My guess is that your suspicion is correct and it has to do with an older tv and the handshake issue. I had 2006 Panasonic that had trouble with the continuity of the signal from the cable box via HDMI. Had comcast out, they spent a lot of time diagnosing it, switching boxes, and finally determined it was the handshake issue eminating from the tv after eliminating everything else. Would be great if you could get/borrow a newer tv just to prove or rule this out, or if there is a firmware fix but many times the hardware installed can't be updated completely with the newest technology. I know HDMI has gone through a few revisions/upgrades over the years. Another thought would be to connect the tv via component video cables and see if it changes anything - I'm not certain on this, but would assume the video signal is sent via this route as well? I ended up connecting my old Panasonic via RGB and audio cables to circumvent the handshake issue.

Thanks again iceman, I'll be playing around with different configurations over time as the issue is a random occurrence. I talked to customer service and a firmware update is out for issues with the HDMI output but it's only at service centers currently. I'll be waiting for that to become available over network or the website of it does. I'd rather not go in for service yet if I don't really have to. It's good to know that I can go for it though if I've exhausted my options without finding a solution.

Once again, thank you iceman. Your replies have been quite helpful!
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post #460 of 1846 Old 11-26-2012, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikirik View Post

Thanks again iceman, I'll be playing around with different configurations over time as the issue is a random occurrence. I talked to customer service and a firmware update is out for issues with the HDMI output but it's only at service centers currently. I'll be waiting for that to become available over network or the website of it does. I'd rather not go in for service yet if I don't really have to. It's good to know that I can go for it though if I've exhausted my options without finding a solution.
Once again, thank you iceman. Your replies have been quite helpful!
You're welcome - good luck!
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post #461 of 1846 Old 11-26-2012, 05:50 PM
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New firmware available:

"Ver 1-198-084-512-125

- Support HTC Connect

- Improve the stability of HDMI connection."

Available for download on the site.. don't know if it is on the net connection yet.
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post #462 of 1846 Old 11-26-2012, 06:16 PM
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Ok, I was able to replicate the shutting down of the receiver with the center channel and surround used internally and the blue dot under the ipod name on the right hand side blinked. Just prior to that I hooked up a three channel McCormack ht-3 amp recently purchased in excellent shape and all three channels blew. Looks to me i have a seriously defective sc-68 receiver and a blown amp. Any suggestions or comments. By the way, the receiver shut down when the volume was increased to just under - 22 decibels
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post #463 of 1846 Old 11-26-2012, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamanaudioho View Post

Ok, I was able to replicate the shutting down of the receiver with the center channel and surround used internally and the blue dot under the ipod name on the right hand side blinked. Just prior to that I hooked up a three channel McCormack ht-3 amp recently purchased in excellent shape and all three channels blew. Looks to me i have a seriously defective sc-68 receiver and a blown amp. Any suggestions or comments. By the way, the receiver shut down when the volume was increased to just under - 22 decibels

The same happend to my Pioneer LX 85(SC-57), and the ipod light on the right side blinked. The reason....a blown tweeter in my mains:mad:
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post #464 of 1846 Old 11-26-2012, 06:43 PM
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Do you mean the sc-68 caused the blown tweeter. If your mad over a blown tweeter, I'm pissed about a newly acquired mccormack amp with three blown channels. this is exactly why I hesitated for years from diving in and buying a receiver instead of sticking with separates. I tried a reset and the receiver crashed again. What sayeth Pioneer. Going to pay for fixing the amp??!!
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post #465 of 1846 Old 11-26-2012, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamanaudioho View Post

Do you mean the sc-68 caused the blown tweeter. If your mad over a blown tweeter, I'm pissed about a newly acquired mccormack amp with three blown channels. this is exactly why I hesitated for years from diving in and buying a receiver instead of sticking with separates. I tried a reset and the receiver crashed again. What sayeth Pioneer. Going to pay for fixing the amp??!!

I understand your anger. I dont know if it its the Pioneer or the Onkyo i had before, but my mains have a weekness in the tweeter, think you could call it user faul...shouldnt push them so loud.

I am absolutly sure the same would have happend if i used separate

Have you checked your speakers?
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post #466 of 1846 Old 11-26-2012, 08:15 PM
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yes, they're ok, martin logan sl3 in rear and definitive technology center. the pioneer is still shut down with blue light blinking
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post #467 of 1846 Old 11-26-2012, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamanaudioho View Post

yes, they're ok, martin logan sl3 in rear and definitive technology center. the pioneer is still shut down with blue light blinking

Sounds wierd. The manual says "fans stop is displayed then ipad light blinking".

Have u tried reset the unit?
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post #468 of 1846 Old 11-27-2012, 04:32 AM
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thinking about this... something is massively wrong if the pre-outs are somehow blowing external amplifiers... eek.gif

steve, you out there? manage to lay your hands on the service manual for this yet? i thjnk the closest thing i have is is sc-5x one, but i'll have to dig around in my various computers to see if i can find it...

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post #469 of 1846 Old 11-27-2012, 05:15 AM - Thread Starter
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^^
no service manual yet. the last I checked, Pioneer US parts was no stock & cost was > $100 eek.gif I was hoping to find someone willing to share wink.gif but no luck so far.

yes, it's weird and in the years since Pio 1st introduced the Ice amps, I can't recall seeing posts about blowing speakers. altho once I managed to blow my center's tweeter fuse! eek.gif but I freely admit I had the volume really cranked on one of the MI films with lots of low freq action and my center's real world bass limits are > 80 Hz. Replaced fuse, turned vol down a few dB's and never had problem since, with either the SC-09 or the SC-68.

I have a hard time understanding how a preamp output could blow a robust amp and the speakers, not unless the McCormack has an unusually low input sensitivity. because at 0.0 dB, the original spec performance for the SC-09's preamp was only 1.5v. and any decent amp should be able to handle that especially since many dedicated preamps can put out much more. is it possible that there was so much distortion harmonics that the amp severely clipped and could also blow a tweeter connected to the receiver?

puzzling...

I'd have a chat with Pioneer and the nearest authorized repair shop on having it checked. But in a situation like this, how does the OP really know if the McCormcack was "in excellent shape" especially if he bought it used off A-gon or some such? How old is the amps, and particularly if it was >10-15 yrs old, was it ever re-capped (capacitors replaced) because electrolytic caps do degrade and although they can last 20+ yrs, past 10 to 15 yrs it's a crapshoot and if they degrade to the point of throwing resistors and other components out of spec or run hot, then a component can blow.

Steve
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post #470 of 1846 Old 11-27-2012, 05:23 AM
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^^^

yea, i can understand blowing drivers... been there too... biggrin.gif

what i can't understand is that somehow the avr is putting out enough voltage to damage the external amp... confused.gif not only haven't i heard of that with a pio, i haven't heard of that period...

possibly an internal short somewhere that is causing a huge voltage spike...

op, have you got a multimeter? if so, check the pre-outs and see what you get...

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post #471 of 1846 Old 11-27-2012, 05:36 AM - Thread Starter
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another consideration is using Martin Logan SL3 speakers. these are true electrostats,and although many of us have used the Ice and latest design class D amps with 4 ohm speakers, including Magnepans, and have had no problems, e-stats are notoriously more difficult because they can have ultra-low impedance dips, 1 ohm or below even. Even tho they are less efficient and need more power, Magnepan planars, OTOH, their impedance is mostly resistive in nature at or near 4 ohms throughout the freq range, which is an easier load.

I checked the SL3 specs and they are 4 ohm rated (of course) but have a low impedance dip to 1.5 ohms at 20 kHz. 1.5 ohms is pretty low, even for a THX U2 certified receiver. Ultra 2 means reliable to 3.2 ohms I believe. If a particular soundtrack had enough energy at those hi freq's or the preamp or amp were clipping, producing hi freq harmonics, at loud enough volumes, it's possible....

further, if the above poster with the blown gear set the M-L's at Large, since they are spec'd to hit 30 Hz, he just may have taxed the internal amp or preamp in the SC-68 to its clipping limit. all this is pure conjecture, of course.

I think there were a couple, maybe not very many, M-L e-stat owners that posted in the Ice amp models but I certainly don't know if any were in the SC-57/55 thread, which was 1st model with the new IR amp design.

Sorry to hear about any gear loss but other than speculate, I certainly have no hard answers redface.gif

IMO, while Maggies can be driven by Ice and the new class D amps, I'm not sure if trying to drive full-range e-stats, especially if they were set to Large is a good match with the receiver's amps redface.gif. I do think adding the ext amp was a good move for these particular speakers.

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post #472 of 1846 Old 11-27-2012, 05:41 AM
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^^^

true... but since he is not using the internal amplification*, the avr doesn't see a load...

me confused... confused.gif

* unless i have my posters confused... losing track of who has what... redface.gif

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post #473 of 1846 Old 11-27-2012, 05:45 AM - Thread Starter
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iamanaudioho (like your username wink.gif)

ccotenj has a good idea on the multimeter if the SC-68 is functional, maybe try to duplicate the exact place on the soundtrack where it shut down at same volume and measure the preamp output at that point. The 1.5v number was for the ice amp based SC-09 and I don't know if it applies to the SC-68. Most modern receivers are pretty consistent, if you check Denon & Onkyo's comparable models, in spec'ing preamp output at 1.2-1.5 volt ranges. At -22 dB, I would think the 68's preamp voltage would be less, since that number applied to 0.0 reference dB.

Steve
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post #474 of 1846 Old 11-27-2012, 05:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
true... but since he is not using the internal amplification*, the avr doesn't see a load...
me confused... confused.gif
* unless i have my posters confused... losing track of who has what... redface.gif

sorry chris, me confused too redface.gif

I may have mispoke...somehow thought he had used the M-L's with both the receiver and the ext amp. unless there are other posts I misunderstood. o well, that's what I get for jumping in too quick.

he did mention using the SL-3's on surrounds confused.gif maybe that's what threw me.

there are 2 posters with 2 blown tweeters so I got mixed up, I guess...

continue on...redface.gif

Steve
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post #475 of 1846 Old 11-27-2012, 05:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
not only haven't i heard of that with a pio, i haven't heard of that period...

+1
that's why it's puzzling

Steve
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post #476 of 1846 Old 11-27-2012, 05:57 AM
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^^^

yea, real puzzling...

i could understand the avr having some type of internal short at the speaker posts that would cause rhe avr to be shutdown even when using external amps... that would be quite unusual, but possible... but the "blowing of the external amp" really has me scratching my head... confused.gif

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post #477 of 1846 Old 11-27-2012, 06:52 AM
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I'm considering a SC-68 purchase but admit I'm somewhat reluctant.

This would initially be used for a 2-channel system with a center speaker. I will probably at some point in the future add rear channel speakers and a projector for HT.

At the moment (while the room is being redone - maintenance, etc) I have a simple setup running ~ just a Sony SCD5400es SACD player going to a borrowed Panasonic XR-57 all digital reciever driving three Danley SH50 and four Epik Empire subs.

The problem I've run into and I'm hoping is not a consistent issue with most (all) A/V recievers has to do with center channel output from a stereo source.

With the above setup, when using an HDMI connection, in order to get a center channel signal the Sony SACD player must be set to SACD multi-channel mode (using a multi-channel SACD of course). However when this is done I seem to loose the subwoofer output.

On the other hand, if I set the Sony to SACD stereo I get the subwoofers back but no center channel.

I can't get a center channel signal with CD at all, HDMI, optical or coaxial).

In all cases it doesn't matter what the speaker size is set to.

The objective here is to get an all digital throughput from source thru power amplification and still be able to have a setup with similar flexibility to my analog system.

Just for reference, I'm more of a music guy than movies/HT. My usual set of equipment includes McIntosh MX130 preamp-A/V control (has an analog center channel output), McIntosh MC7205 power amp (additional power amps that can be used are Luxman MB3045 triodes and Wright Sound Labs 2A3 SET), three Behringer DEQ2496 for various EQ and time delay for the center speakers and subs, Audio Research SP6B preamp for phono.

I'm hoping that maybe things have gotten to the point where and all digital system equals the sound quality and has the same control/setup flexibility as my analog setup but without all the extra connections. But so far this pursuit has been proving to be sort of a nemesis.
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post #478 of 1846 Old 11-27-2012, 07:12 AM
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I've read the above posts and can clarify some of ambiguity and speculation. My system is the following: Pioneer sc-68, McCormack DNA-1 monoblocks (front left and right) powering Apogee Stages; Definitive Technology center speaker, Martin Logan SL3s (surround left and right); in the shop after adding the sc-68 is a psaudio delta 250 monoblock, accustat tnt-200, and McCormack HT-3 (purchased just yesterday). Someone mentioned the McCormack may have bgeen sold defective, but I personally picked it up from the seller who is an audiophile himself and an electrical engineer and said he never had a problem with it and wants me to keep him updated. The crashes do not occur mostly playing music and at a range from -14 decibles to -24 decibles. Last night it crashed and stayed down with the blue light blinking while using three internal amps. It crashed using either internal or external amps. And it crashed sometimes using just in stereo with external ampliefiers. The only difference there is the monoblocks were unaffected. I considered myself sophisticated in audio and video equipment, and can trouble shoot many problems, and this one is pointing directly at the Pioneer Elite SC-68. I am not going to condemn Pioneer but it better be ready to step up to the plate and compensate me for the damaged equipment and replace the receiver with a completely new one. It is alarming Pioneer would sell one so defective that it would damage other equipment. I am suspecting a leakage of dc. Feel free to chime in.
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post #479 of 1846 Old 11-27-2012, 07:13 AM
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The crashes occurred mostly playing music.
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post #480 of 1846 Old 11-27-2012, 07:25 AM
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I re-re-read the posts and wanted to add another point. When playing running on empty by jackson brown in 5.1 dvdaudio, the crash did occur at the same spot or song.
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Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

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