Official Pioneer SC-68/67 Thread - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1854 Old 12-10-2012, 02:32 PM
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^^^

welllllllll... you are probably asking the wrong person when it comes to subjective "dac evaluation"... smile.gif if it was me, i'd feed spdif straight to the avr, and not bother with anything else...

know this... "jitter" issues were solved LONG ago... even the "most jittery" of interfaces are audibly transparent... that boogeyman ain't coming out from underneath the bed... tongue.gif

- chris

 

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post #542 of 1854 Old 12-10-2012, 02:45 PM
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Chris, I am sorry but I meant to use quoting so that I included Walkamo's (Chris Walker - Pioneer Electronics) earlier post.

I don't know how important jitter is, I try not to get hung up about it, preferring instead to be guided by user reviews/listening tests. I was hoping that someone at Pioneer might reply, or failing that someone who has had the opportunity to do some listening tests to compare the built-in USB DAC and an external one, like my Mapleshade.

I have tried to get answers from Pioneer Canada but all I get is the first line customer support person who is unable to answer my questions, resorting instead to just quoting from the marketing blurb.
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post #543 of 1854 Old 12-10-2012, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
the crossover would need to go BEFORE the amplifiers... new xover or no new xover...
yes, mcacc would work with the scenario described...
frankly, unless you are going fully active, you are wasting your time trying to do what you want... and while there can be benefits to an active setup, it's not just a "5 minute, set it and forget it" job...

I tried to read about differences between passive and active bi-amping. All the ones that I have read say there is no benefit of doing passive (and there may be negative impact). So, do we know the bi-amping options available in sc-68 are passive or active?
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post #544 of 1854 Old 12-10-2012, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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^^
definitely, without any doubt, passive

why? because there is no crossover network present in the receiver that segregates the hi freq, mid freq & low freq bands to send separate signals to each speaker driver connection.

before you say there is a crossover in the MCACC setup, that is for bass management & Low Freq Effects channel for sending bass from to a subwoofer. not the same thing. the crossover I'm referring to is circuitry that separates signals sent to your woofer, the midrange cone and the tweeter. all speakers have internal crossovers to do this and active bi-amping uses a separate "box" analog or digital to replace this circuitry with a customizable one, or a crossover design from a kit builder, etc. besides, unless they made it user adjustable, how would Pioneer know the specific crossover design for every speaker made on the planet? it would take a hard drive to store that much information wink.gif

no receiver does active bi-amping, because the adjustable crossover circuitry needed doesn't exist in any of them.

Steve
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post #545 of 1854 Old 12-10-2012, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 350zbachelor View Post

Sound Retriever (S.RTRV)
Do any of you use this feature? Thoughts and inputs on when it should be used? or leave off all the time?
BTW i'm using a 68 as a processor and a parasound A51 as my amp.
Thanks.

Just when I thought I was out (these days I'm deep in the Audyssey rabbit hole and heading to one for video calibration LOL)....you bring me back in.smile.gif

When I had the SC-57, I used Sound Retriever on poor quality Internet radio streams (like 32K MP3 stuff). I thought the improvement to SQ was subjective, but noticable. At least there was the perception that there was more dynamic range and clarity for sources that weren't compressed pop music or voice, such as world musicky stuff with acoustic guitar or bouzouki.

Kind of an audio version of the Darbee, in a way - it works if you think it sounds 'better'.

Stuart

 

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post #546 of 1854 Old 12-10-2012, 05:55 PM
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^^^

hey why should you escape? i've been a pio-expat for longer than you and i'm still here... tongue.gif

good point there, i forgot about the el crappo internet streams... redface.gif

edit: i owe you a pm... redface.gif

- chris

 

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post #547 of 1854 Old 12-10-2012, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soniky View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
the crossover would need to go BEFORE the amplifiers... new xover or no new xover...
yes, mcacc would work with the scenario described...
frankly, unless you are going fully active, you are wasting your time trying to do what you want... and while there can be benefits to an active setup, it's not just a "5 minute, set it and forget it" job...

I tried to read about differences between passive and active bi-amping. All the ones that I have read say there is no benefit of doing passive (and there may be negative impact). So, do we know the bi-amping options available in sc-68 are passive or active?

what steve said... smile.gif

plus crossover design is as much art as skill... it is not "easy"... i have done active setups in cars, and i'm still not convinced i did even as good a job as the designer of the passive xover that came with the speakers...

it can be a fun project to try and build an active system... however, you'd be best served to do lots of learnin' first... smile.gif

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

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post #548 of 1854 Old 12-10-2012, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
hey why should you escape? i've been a pio-expat for longer than you and i'm still here... tongue.gif
good point there, i forgot about the el crappo internet streams... redface.gif

Well, you altruistically seek to help people....that's your excuse.cool.gif And if you listen to a lot of Internet radio at home on your system, it matters. Compressed streams with PL II sound worse rather than better than stereo if you don't use a Sound Retreiver type thing, which is where DAC's may come in.

For me, it's a matter of time prioritization: my Pioneer memory's largely faded (after a mere four years of SC-27 and 57 ownership) and been replaced by spending far too much time reading the VT50 settings thread, and lurking on High Def Junkies. In fact, if getting a TV stand and having to move my center channel to an open shelf weren't an excuse to do an Audyssey Pro and post-cal OmniMic run I'd probably devote all of my A/V brain cells to video rather than audio. I even unsubbed the Oppo BDP-103 thread...which should tell you something.

I still find this intellectually interesting, thanks to Steve (ss9001) and there's at least one feature I vaguely miss from my Pio salad days - the virtual wides/height thing. Does anyone here use that instead of springing for real speakers? Curious what the reaction is. The Pio's DAC filter adjustments were also kind of cool, even if I moved onto Denon before I got around to 'experimenting' for which created the flattest response.

At least this thread's something to read while I do my 100 hours "aging" of the new 55" Panny this week.....which has that 'watching paint dry' quality before you do any remotely serious TV watching.

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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post #549 of 1854 Old 12-10-2012, 06:17 PM
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^^^

yea, i remember when i used internet radio, it certainly didn't hurt... smile.gif

i'll take "altruistic" over "geek without a life"... tongue.gif

wow... you really have moved completely into video obsession... no more new oppo lust even... eek.gif

yes, "aging" is worse than watching paint dry... i guess that's where my impatience shows... with the plasmas, i just hooked them up and abused them from day 1... redface.gif i DID turn down the contrast for the first 100 hours to try to be kind to the panel... tongue.gif

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

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post #550 of 1854 Old 12-10-2012, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
yea, i remember when i used internet radio, it certainly didn't hurt... smile.gif
i'll take "altruistic" over "geek without a life"... tongue.gif
wow... you really have moved completely into video obsession... no more new oppo lust even... eek.gif
yes, "aging" is worse than watching paint dry... i guess that's where my impatience shows... with the plasmas, i just hooked them up and abused them from day 1... redface.gif i DID turn down the contrast for the first 100 hours to try to be kind to the panel... tongue.gif

I'm the scientific method person....and I've always taken prepping panels seriously; we just have better tools now.

As for Oppo lust, it's like your 4520 or a date with Mila Kunis. I'm set but who would say no if one showed up at your front door.smile.gif. Says the guy that bought a Radiance Mini for 'long-term planning' purposes....shiny toys are in the eye of the beholder.

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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post #551 of 1854 Old 12-10-2012, 07:07 PM
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^^^

if mila shows up at my front door, swmbo will have to understand that i must accept the invitation... tongue.gif

you bought the radiance? woot!!!

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

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post #552 of 1854 Old 12-10-2012, 07:26 PM
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Pioneer posted new firmware today to fix the Pandora problem. Has anyone tried it on their 67/68?
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post #553 of 1854 Old 12-10-2012, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
if mila shows up at my front door, swmbo will have to understand that i must accept the invitation... tongue.gif
you bought the radiance? woot!!!

Yes, I'm a full-fledged obsessive now....tongue.gif. The offer was too good to pass up, and I've convinced myself that I need to find out why 125 LUT color calibration is worth the effort once the VT50 settles in.

To bring this vaguely on-topic: do any of you Pio guys use a tool like a Radiance, or is everyone set with the SC-67/8's QDEO and video adjustments?

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

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post #554 of 1854 Old 12-10-2012, 07:33 PM
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^^^

good deal... smile.gif it will be...

my "guess" is that the qdeo is reasonably close when it comes to deinterlacing, as i believe they use a form of adaptive deinterlacing... when it comes to scaling, otoh, the lumagen rules the roost (normal caveats about "real world viewing", etc. apply)... after getting "used to" the lumagen no-ring scaling, all others fail (again, normal caveats apply)...

when it comes not sure how well it's enhancement features work... cms not implemented to the best of my knowledge...

- chris

 

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post #555 of 1854 Old 12-10-2012, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 350zbachelor View Post

Sound Retriever (S.RTRV)
Do any of you use this feature? Thoughts and inputs on when it should be used? or leave off all the time?
BTW i'm using a 68 as a processor and a parasound A51 as my amp.
Thanks.

I found it actually had quite a negative effect on the sound IMO.

Not only does it seem to raise the overall amplitude (volume) of the audio, it made it very bright when used with my lossless tracks via Airplay (which shouldn't need any processing..)

It shouldn't really do anything to HBR lossy files, and it seems to have an effect (negative IMO) on every source I tried it on..

Was going to ask others to look at it and see if they have the same experience I did... but for now, for me, it is a definite no go at this time..

On another note.. Airplay is supposed to be "lossless," i.e. playback via ALAC..

The Denon 4311 would playback DTS CD files fine.. on the Pioneer i just get silence.. while this may just be that Pioneer found no need to auto detect audio via the network (I need to try it via net and DNLA) it makes me wonder if they are transcoding the audio when using Airplay.
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post #556 of 1854 Old 12-10-2012, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astrogeeker View Post

Pioneer posted new firmware today to fix the Pandora problem. Has anyone tried it on their 67/68?

Note that it is only available for update via USB (download the file from the website...)

It is not available via internet connection updating on the 67/68
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post #557 of 1854 Old 12-10-2012, 11:57 PM
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I tried the USB Pandora update and all I get is Update Error 6. Tried re-downloading several times from the website- each time the same files and they all look good. Checked the USB utilities USB thumbdrive looks good. File sets extracted on my USB Bins A,B,C,D,E,H,X - still nogo. Did a system reset redownloaded the 7 Bin several times all nogos. Emailed Pioneer. Anyone else have any ideas?
Dave
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post #558 of 1854 Old 12-11-2012, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by davehale View Post

I tried the USB Pandora update and all I get is Update Error 6. Tried re-downloading several times from the website- each time the same files and they all look good. Checked the USB utilities USB thumbdrive looks good. File sets extracted on my USB Bins A,B,C,D,E,H,X - still nogo. Did a system reset redownloaded the 7 Bin several times all nogos. Emailed Pioneer. Anyone else have any ideas?
Dave

Yes I have a friend with a 67 who had the same experience. Nice testing pioneer!
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post #559 of 1854 Old 12-11-2012, 04:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I haven't done any of the updates yet redface.gif downloaded them but not installed.

the flash drive must be clean with no other files on it, and the zip file must be extracted to it but not have the zip file itself on the flash drive.

I'll keep you posted how it goes.

Steve
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post #560 of 1854 Old 12-11-2012, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astrogeeker View Post

Yes I have a friend with a 67 who had the same experience. Nice testing pioneer!

you guys...wink.gif

well, it worked for me!!

try it again, both of you. either Pioneer replaced some files very early this AM, like in the wee hours of the night, or there's "user error" at work smile.gif

just for the record, the only files that are to be on the flash drive are the extracted bin files. DO NOT put the zip file or the extracted folder on the flash drive or it will fail. the bin files must be in the root directory not inside the un-zipped folder or it will fail. The directions clearly say files must be in the root directory. also, I would not cut/paste the files from the zipped file but use an extraction tool.

not saying you or anyone else did it wrong 'cause I don't know what anyone did or if Pioneer changed the files last night wink.gif

but I'm making sure the right way to put the files on the usb stick is posted, for everyone's benefit - just in case, so don't take offense smile.gif

I updated to the previous version 1st although that shouldn't be necessary based on Pioneer saying this also includes the HTC connection update. But it doesn't hurt to do them sequentially. I wanted there to be no room for doubt that this either works or it doesn't.

my starting version already had the ipad charging update, v. 1-180-084-512-107 so that's what I started with. then updated to v. 1-198-084-512-125, finally to 1-198-084-512-153.

the only quirk I encountered was after it shut off once the last update was done, I pulled the flash drive and the Software Update setting was greyed out. The only thing I figured was I may have lost network connectivity & since there was no usb drive, there was nothing detected by the receiver to update from, so it greyed out the choice. I rebooted my cable modem, router, and powered down & up the receiver and all was fine again - Software Update was available & indicating I had the latest Pandora version.

the FW update that I downloaded at 6:30AM Eastern installs perfectly fine.

Steve
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post #561 of 1854 Old 12-11-2012, 12:29 PM
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Pandora Update,
I finally did the update. My problem was Pioneer was not reading from my USB drive or the second one or the third one or the 4th. So I pulled out an older USB drive it went thru the washer some years ago, it worked first time and was very easy. I believe my newer thumb drives may have been to large but my older smaller one worked first time- many hours later and frustration of course.
Dave
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post #562 of 1854 Old 12-11-2012, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soniky View Post

, do we know the bi-amping options available in sc-68 are passive or active?

Maybe let me ask the question a different way. On page 23 of the manual (Bi-amping your speakers), it shows front height goes to the higher freq driver and the regular front goes to the lower freq. driver. This seems to indicate to me that internally SC-68 does have filters feeding different signals between those two amp outputs. Is this true? and if so, doesn't this qualifies as Active Bi-amp which would be worth to consider?
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post #563 of 1854 Old 12-11-2012, 12:40 PM
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1. I do not believe there are any filters (crossovers) built in to the 68 to facilitate active bi-amping.
2. My SC-27 requires a FAT32 USB stick so it is possible those having problems have an improperly formatted USB stick. That would tie in with the older one working...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #564 of 1854 Old 12-11-2012, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soniky View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by soniky View Post

, do we know the bi-amping options available in sc-68 are passive or active?

Maybe let me ask the question a different way. On page 23 of the manual (Bi-amping your speakers), it shows front height goes to the higher freq driver and the regular front goes to the lower freq. driver. This seems to indicate to me that internally SC-68 does have filters feeding different signals between those two amp outputs.

No, all it means is that the DSP in the AVR ties the inputs of the amps together.
Quote:
Is this true? and if so, doesn't this qualifies as Active Bi-amp which would be worth to consider?

For active biamping you would need at minimum an electronic crossover in the AVR at the same frequency as the passive crossover in the speaker. This crossover would be in the 2-3 KHz range. Can you find any place to set this up in the user manual for the AVR?
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post #565 of 1854 Old 12-11-2012, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soniky View Post

Maybe let me ask the question a different way. On page 23 of the manual (Bi-amping your speakers), it shows front height goes to the higher freq driver and the regular front goes to the lower freq. driver. This seems to indicate to me that internally SC-68 does have filters feeding different signals between those two amp outputs. Is this true? and if so, doesn't this qualifies as Active Bi-amp which would be worth to consider?

gosh - you are making this much too hard (sigh)
I am going to try one more time to set you straight then I'm giving up rolleyes.gif

these are 2 examples of what is used to active bi-amp:

http://bryston.com/products/other/10B-STD.html
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DCX2496.aspx

review the features of these. do you see anything resembling that in any receiver you've ever looked at or owned? no

just because 2 speaker connections are labeled hi & low doesn't mean there's any circuitry behind them to separate the frequencies

let me ask, how can Pioneer know all the designs of thousands of speaker companies and models and program the receiver to automatically know that in advance when you plug in a speaker cable? it can't. or do you see anything in the menu where you can modify the crossover design like the 2 examples above? no

here's why it can't be done in a receiver and takes a custom box, either with adjustable controls or one custom built for a specific speaker and results:

I'll take 2 speaker companies and models:

Polk LSiMI707 tower:
Xover for tweeter: 3000 Hz
Xover for midrange: 300 Hz
Xover for woofer: 100 Hz

Magnepan 3.6R planar (my speaker)
Xover between tweeter & midrange: 1700 Hz
Xover between bass & midrange: 200 Hz

I hope you can see how radically different these are smile.gif OK - do you see anything in the Pioneer menu that would allow you to set these or change them? I hope not because if you do, I'll trade you wink.gif

and there are 2 way speakers, 3 way, 4 way & 5 way with a multitude of cones or drivers used, each one for a specific acoustic sound in which the speaker company designs a unique crossover circuit tailor-made to make that cone perform its best in the freq range it's best designed for. and there are various crossover circuit designs, each with its own phase characteristics, and unique reasons for use, names like Linkwitz-Riley, Butterworth, Polk uses an Orth design in one its bookshelves (whatever that is wink.gif) - I'm not an electrical engineer so I don't know how they differ, I just know that they do.

Pioneer cannot possibly build-in that kind of capability at the price point these receivers are. For example, the Bryston is over $3000 & funcitions in the analog domain while the Behringer is a budget unit in the $400 range that functions in the digital domain using analog-to-digital, back to analog converters. There are custom designers, like Marchand Elec, with will build you a crossover box based on a given speaker design or will use crossover points based on what the user tells them to use. or DIY's...there are many ways to do it.

but not in a receiver, not in a Pioneer or any other brand ever made.

it doesn't exist so wishing it were so doesn't change anything.

all any eceiver can do is passive bi-amping since that circuitry isn't in there. Now if you were willing to pay $10000 for a receiver with digital programming so you can design your own and apply it, sure Pioneer/Denon/Yamaha/Onkyo can do it.

and I've ignored the fact that speaker designers spend lots of hours and money in listening rooms & aneochic chambers, tweaking the circuits so they get the sound they want. What makes you think you & I, being speaker design dummies wink.gif can equal what they pay EE's and audio engineers big bucks to do? the best use of an ext crossover box is to DUPLICATE or mildly tweak the companies crossover points so that they CAN separate the signals for active bi-amping, not re-design the speaker.

is it clear yet? wink.gif

the reason for the labels is convenience. that's all, something so the user can hang his hat on where to plug the 2 sides into. trust me, I've seen the service manuals & circuit diagrams, both "hi" and "lo" are equal electrically and have nothing between them, just 2 amps putting out to 2 different jacks. How can they be otherwise since they ALSO can power & send the full freq range to the heights or widths.

I know you are trying to learn. so I spent the time to show you examples of why it isn't the way you'd like it to be wink.gif but sometimes you'll have to accept that some of us old timers know what we are talking about. at least enough to be able to help folks use these things smile.gif

Steve
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post #566 of 1854 Old 12-11-2012, 01:37 PM
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I agree about the unformatted USB drives. Of course I have downloaded many firmware updates many times on my older OPPOs. Yes the zip folder must be unzipped to your USB drive w/o the folder. All my USB drives were formatted to FAT32. All my thumdrives were checked using Windows 7 utilities- all are OK. To verify that for today I downloaded some FLAC files and played them thru my OPPO and no problems. I do remember some years back about how some newer thumb drives w too much memory can be a problem. I wonder if Pioneer is using older software? In any case, I just placed my older thumbdrive in my dispay case inside a small jewelry box just for Pioneer updates.
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post #567 of 1854 Old 12-11-2012, 01:53 PM
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The only AVR's Ive seen active crossovers in are the newer Onkyo's (818 and up.....)
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post #568 of 1854 Old 12-11-2012, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

OK?? got it?

Yes, I got it. Steve & Chris, thanks for taking the time. Now I can move on making my cables so that I can connect everything (and no bi-amping). smile.gif
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post #569 of 1854 Old 12-11-2012, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by davehale View Post

I agree about the unformatted USB drives. Of course I have downloaded many firmware updates many times on my older OPPOs. Yes the zip folder must be unzipped to your USB drive w/o the folder. All my USB drives were formatted to FAT32. All my thumdrives were checked using Windows 7 utilities- all are OK. To verify that for today I downloaded some FLAC files and played them thru my OPPO and no problems. I do remember some years back about how some newer thumb drives w too much memory can be a problem. I wonder if Pioneer is using older software? In any case, I just placed my older thumbdrive in my dispay case inside a small jewelry box just for Pioneer updates.
Dave

I hear ya smile.gif

I don't know how large yours were, the ones that didn't work, but mine was 8 GB.
I couldn't find any info in the manual on a size limit for software updating but apparently there is.

Thanks for clearing up the mystery (sort of)...we prevail by trial & experimentation tongue.gifwink.gif

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post #570 of 1854 Old 12-11-2012, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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The only AVR's Ive seen active crossovers in are the newer Onkyo's (818 and up.....)

and you had to go & spoil my well reasoned argument tongue.gifwink.gif

OK - now I have something to look into & ponder.

I'll check Onkyo/Integra flagship model manuals again (which I've done for about 5 yrs and can't recall active biamp crossovers being there)

but I'll take your word for it...for now, Film, since I know you've used different brands & models over the years.

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