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post #811 of 1849 Old 01-15-2013, 07:46 AM
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Can someone please tell me what infomation the OSD shows on the TV with the Elite SC-67/68 via HDMI connection to TV (Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD)

Does it show the:

MCACC setup
Audio Options
Video Options
Current input
Current Sound Format
Channel Levels

I only get the MCACC Setup and a useless volume box that only shows a "blue line" representing the volume but no "Number" (-45.5) like on the front panel. I have enabled the HDMI control on the receiver and since I have an Elite Pro 151FD I also enable that in the TV menu.

The "MCACC Setup" shows if HDMI control is on or off.

I noticed also with the HDMI control feature set to "On" in the TV setup that if I switch TV inputs the receiver turns off.....I don't want that to happen

I don't want any of those advanced HDMI features but just to display the OSD of the receiver on the TV via HDMI. (volume input, sound mode, audio/video options, channel levels and MCAAC setup)

Is this possible because other brands like the Yamaha RX-A3020 and Denon 4520ci can do this which is what most people would expect to see for an OSD from a $2000 receiver. My current 12 yr old Yamaha RX-V3300 shows more info in its OSD
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post #812 of 1849 Old 01-15-2013, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escape View Post

Can someone please tell me what infomation the OSD shows on the TV with the Elite SC-67/68 via HDMI connection to TV (Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD)

Does it show the:

MCACC setup
Audio Options
Video Options
Current input
Current Sound Format
Channel Levels

I only get the MCACC Setup and a useless volume box that only shows a "blue line" representing the volume but no "Number" (-45.5) like on the front panel. I have enabled the HDMI control on the receiver and since I have an Elite Pro 151FD I also enable that in the TV menu.

The "MCACC Setup" shows if HDMI control is on or off.

I noticed also with the HDMI control feature set to "On" in the TV setup that if I switch TV inputs the receiver turns off.....I don't want that to happen

I don't want any of those advanced HDMI features but just to display the OSD of the receiver on the TV via HDMI. (volume input, sound mode, audio/video options, channel levels and MCAAC setup)

Is this possible because other brands like the Yamaha RX-A3020 and Denon 4520ci can do this which is what most people would expect to see for an OSD from a $2000 receiver. My current 12 yr old Yamaha RX-V3300 shows more info in its OSD

maybe you are new to Pioneer methodology? wink.gif
I'll give this a shot based on what I think you're asking.

1. Does it show the:

MCACC setup
Audio Options
Video Options
Current input
Current Sound Format
Channel Levels


yes it does, but not all at the same time wink.gif when you're in the setup menu, your screen will show that. when you are in video parameters, the screen will show that (providing Video Converter is On). when you're in normal everyday mode, the OSD will be a true overlay & display volume, the sound processing/audio format and the source, those items only. when you're in MCACC menu, if you go to Channel Level in the setup, the screen will show the channel levels, etc etc. using remote or i-app for things like audio parameters, video parameters, standing wave filter on/off, tone, all these various options, will appear in the OSD when you press the specific remote key or i-app button and they will be an overlay just like volume & audio format.

2. HDMI Control should be irrelevant to the OSD whether it's on or off. I have mine off and I see everything I'm supposed to see. I have the exact same gear as you: Kuro 151, SC-68 and using HDMI. It works exactly as I've described, nothing unusual.

3. I don't want any of those advanced HDMI features but just to display the OSD of the receiver on the TV via HDMI. (volume input, sound mode, audio/video options, channel levels and MCAAC setup)

well, you won't see MCACC setup or channel levels or unless you're in that setup menu. all you will see watching/listening to a source is exactly what I've told you: vol, audio mode, source name. all the rest only appears when you hit the remote key for that function. if you want to look at the selected MCACC preset (M1, M2, M3, etc) then press that remote key and it will appear on screen.

4. why would you expect to see detailed MCACC settings when you are just watching TV confused.gif? you wouldn't need to unless you're actually going into the setup menu to review them or change them. you can hit Home Menu on the remote and see everything on screen. what it DOESN'T do is overlay on top of what you're viewing on TV. it pauses, goes to the menu then when you exit you'll see what you're watching return. sorry if that may disappoint you, but that's the way it is...no overlay but a change in what you see to the menus. like I said, all the various things you can change using remote keys, like the ones I mentioned & PQLS, etc, will be onscreen in a simple overlay along with the source input you are applying them to. not going all the way into the setup menus.

5. if you're seeing --- for volume that means the volume is turned completely down to off, nothing. When you run MCACC, it takes the volume up to 0.0 dB on the dial, but when you finish the calibration, the receiver does not return to the volume you previously had, it goes to --- so your OSD will display ---. turn the volume up to desired level and the corresponding numbers will be on screen.

6. I noticed also with the HDMI control feature set to "On" in the TV setup that if I switch TV inputs the receiver turns off.....I don't want that to happen

my advice is consult your manuals for the 151 and the SC-68. HDMI Control should turned on in both or off in both. Since I don't use it I can't advise you on how to make it work they way you think it should. the whole idea of HDMI Control is to link the 2 devices together so when you turn one on, the other turns on & vice versa. using HDMI Control is not always what you think it should or like it to be. It may reset the input on the receiver to TV or SAT/CBL instead of what you had originally. it's assumed if you have it on, watching TV must be your priority. some don't like that but that's the way it is. that's one of the quirks using HDMI Control or HDMI CEC as it's also called. how well it works depends on the specific TV and receiver combination. if anything, it should work the best for you since you're connecting to a Pioneer plasma. but that doesn't mean it works the way you'd like it to wink.gif

I agree that Pioneer GUI needs a bit of improvement to equal the GUI in the 4520. but it's certainly adequate for the purpose since you shouldn't need to view your MCACC settings every time you watch a movie wink.gif once you're done with it, you're done, unless you are specifically needing to look at it again or re-calibrate. if all you want to do is change presets, you can do that with the remote or i-app and watch it change on screen.

not sure this addresses your questions but I gave it a shot from how I interpreted them smile.gif

It's been my observation over the years that on these SC models, Pioneer seems to choose to spend more resources on the amp development, THX certifications & other unique features while the other companies do GUI's and their own unique features wink.gif it's your choice which are the most valuable to you and shop accordingly.

I've recently viewed several online video reviews of the Denon 4520, Pioneer SC-68 & Onkyo 5010 from a reviewer/dealer in Germany. they're on youtube, in German & youtube's translation capability is beta so it's not smooth & precise. but you can get the gist of it fairly well by following the guy while reading. he also does actual bench test measurements on each one so it's not the typical "sounds great" kind of subjective crap you see in reviews wink.gif

he also rates them in a lot of areas - audio quality, room correction, bass, treble, midrange clarity, ability to reproduce dynamics, GUI, features, etc. and gives them a scorecard...

in audio quality, he scores the Pioneer in some areas a bit better than the Denon 4520 and the 4520 a bit better than the Pioneer but in all cases, he rates both as better than the Onkyo. differences are not by much but his overall rankings are Denon 4520, Pioneer SC-68, then Onkyo 5010. and the only reason the Denon gets the nod on audio quality is he seems to think it's a little better in "naturalness" as he calls it, slightly better in midrange (i.e. 10 vs a 9, again not much difference) while the Onkyo gets an 8. but the Pioneer beats them both in his opinion on bass & dynamics, no doubt due to the class D amps and producing more power all channels driven.

in fact, his power measurements on the Denon vs the Pioneer are surprising. and it's all due to the limited power supply in the Denon. the 4520 drops to 35 watts per ch (5 ch driven) while the Pioneer stays up close to 100 watts, I think about 90 IIRC. that's a big difference!

you can choose more power or better GUI - the choice is yours smile.gif

Pioneer has its own methodology for implementing features and it's not the same as Onkyo, Denon, or Yamaha. nor should you expect it to be. you'll learn the unique & yes, sometimes quirks in the Pioneer, but let's be honest....ALL receivers have quirks. just today, I'm reading posts in the Denon 4520 & Marantz 8801 threads about buggy networking, phone apps & several known quirks that Denon is aware of for couple years but hasn't addressed yet.

no receiver mfg is perfect.

Steve
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post #813 of 1849 Old 01-15-2013, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

maybe you are new to Pioneer methodology? wink.gif
I'll give this a shot based on what I think you're asking.

1. Does it show the:

MCACC setup
Audio Options
Video Options
Current input
Current Sound Format
Channel Levels


yes it does, but not all at the same time wink.gif when you're in the setup menu, your screen will show that. when you are in video parameters, the screen will show that (providing Video Converter is On). when you're in normal everyday mode, the OSD will be a true overlay & display volume, the sound processing/audio format and the source, those items only. when you're in MCACC menu, if you go to Channel Level in the setup, the screen will show the channel levels, etc etc. using remote or i-app for things like audio parameters, video parameters, standing wave filter on/off, tone, all these various options, will appear in the OSD when you press the specific remote key or i-app button and they will be an overlay just like volume & audio format.

2. HDMI Control should be irrelevant to the OSD whether it's on or off. I have mine off and I see everything I'm supposed to see. I have the exact same gear as you: Kuro 151, SC-68 and using HDMI. It works exactly as I've described, nothing unusual.

3. I don't want any of those advanced HDMI features but just to display the OSD of the receiver on the TV via HDMI. (volume input, sound mode, audio/video options, channel levels and MCAAC setup)

well, you won't see MCACC setup or channel levels or unless you're in that setup menu. all you will see watching/listening to a source is exactly what I've told you: vol, audio mode, source name. all the rest only appears when you hit the remote key for that function. if you want to look at the selected MCACC preset (M1, M2, M3, etc) then press that remote key and it will appear on screen.

4. why would you expect to see detailed MCACC settings when you are just watching TV confused.gif? you wouldn't need to unless you're actually going into the setup menu to review them or change them. you can hit Home Menu on the remote and see everything on screen. what it DOESN'T do is overlay on top of what you're viewing on TV. it pauses, goes to the menu then when you exit you'll see what you're watching return. sorry if that may disappoint you, but that's the way it is...no overlay but a change in what you see to the menus. like I said, all the various things you can change using remote keys, like the ones I mentioned & PQLS, etc, will be onscreen in a simple overlay along with the source input you are applying them to. not going all the way into the setup menus.

5. if you're seeing --- for volume that means the volume is turned completely down to off, nothing. When you run MCACC, it takes the volume up to 0.0 dB on the dial, but when you finish the calibration, the receiver does not return to the volume you previously had, it goes to --- so your OSD will display ---. turn the volume up to desired level and the corresponding numbers will be on screen.

6. I noticed also with the HDMI control feature set to "On" in the TV setup that if I switch TV inputs the receiver turns off.....I don't want that to happen

my advice is consult your manuals for the 151 and the SC-68. HDMI Control should turned on in both or off in both. Since I don't use it I can't advise you on how to make it work they way you think it should. the whole idea of HDMI Control is to link the 2 devices together so when you turn one on, the other turns on & vice versa. using HDMI Control is not always what you think it should or like it to be. It may reset the input on the receiver to TV or SAT/CBL instead of what you had originally. it's assumed if you have it on, watching TV must be your priority. some don't like that but that's the way it is. that's one of the quirks using HDMI Control or HDMI CEC as it's also called. how well it works depends on the specific TV and receiver combination. if anything, it should work the best for you since you're connecting to a Pioneer plasma. but that doesn't mean it works the way you'd like it to wink.gif

I agree that Pioneer GUI needs a bit of improvement to equal the GUI in the 4520. but it's certainly adequate for the purpose since you shouldn't need to view your MCACC settings every time you watch a movie wink.gif once you're done with it, you're done, unless you are specifically needing to look at it again or re-calibrate. if all you want to do is change presets, you can do that with the remote or i-app and watch it change on screen.

not sure this addresses your questions but I gave it a shot from how I interpreted them smile.gif

It's been my observation over the years that on these SC models, Pioneer seems to choose to spend more resources on the amp development, THX certifications & other unique features while the other companies do GUI's and their own unique features wink.gif it's your choice which are the most valuable to you and shop accordingly.

I've recently viewed several online video reviews of the Denon 4520, Pioneer SC-68 & Onkyo 5010 from a reviewer/dealer in Germany. they're on youtube, in German & youtube's translation capability is beta so it's not smooth & precise. but you can get the gist of it fairly well by following the guy while reading. he also does actual bench test measurements on each one so it's not the typical "sounds great" kind of subjective crap you see in reviews wink.gif

he also rates them in a lot of areas - audio quality, room correction, bass, treble, midrange clarity, ability to reproduce dynamics, GUI, features, etc. and gives them a scorecard...

in audio quality, he scores the Pioneer in some areas a bit better than the Denon 4520 and the 4520 a bit better than the Pioneer but in all cases, he rates both as better than the Onkyo. differences are not by much but his overall rankings are Denon 4520, Pioneer SC-68, then Onkyo 5010. and the only reason the Denon gets the nod on audio quality is he seems to think it's a little better in "naturalness" as he calls it, slightly better in midrange (i.e. 10 vs a 9, again not much difference) while the Onkyo gets an 8. but the Pioneer beats them both in his opinion on bass & dynamics, no doubt due to the class D amps and producing more power all channels driven.

in fact, his power measurements on the Denon vs the Pioneer are surprising. and it's all due to the limited power supply in the Denon. the 4520 drops to 35 watts per ch (5 ch driven) while the Pioneer stays up close to 100 watts, I think about 90 IIRC. that's a big difference!

you can choose more power or better GUI - the choice is yours smile.gif

Pioneer has its own methodology for implementing features and it's not the same as Onkyo, Denon, or Yamaha. nor should you expect it to be. you'll learn the unique & yes, sometimes quirks in the Pioneer, but let's be honest....ALL receivers have quirks. just today, I'm reading posts in the Denon 4520 & Marantz 8801 threads about buggy networking, phone apps & several known quirks that Denon is aware of for couple years but hasn't addressed yet.

no receiver mfg is perfect.
Thanks for the in depth reply

I actually have the SC-61 as a demo (Picked up on Friday) until the they get the SC-67 in hopefully this week and will swap. I am trying out features and seeing how it sounds and realize that the SC-61 lacks the OSD menu (only shows MCACC Setup) that you described above and other features that the SC-67 has.

What I want to do also is to feed a secondary monitor to be able to view this info and not have my plasma on all the time The secondary monitor will be used to change setting if needed and when listening to CDs, PC audio, internet radio and Wav and Mp3 from my network I can use the secondary monitor to veiw instead of using the plasma

When I'm viewing bluray or watching TV on the plasma I want to be able to see volume and sourround mode and if I need to change a setting I can do it while viewing it on the plasma which and from what you described confirms that I can
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post #814 of 1849 Old 01-15-2013, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJSJ View Post

Does the SC-67 support HD-Radio?
I searched the manual and couldn't find any mention of it.

doesn't look like it. I checked the manual too.

sorry I didn't post earlier but as strange as it may seem, I haven't connected AM/FM in about 8 years redface.gif so I had to root around the manual. I never listen to normal radio stations at home. I really can't stand all the BS talking redface.gif

all I want to hear is music. in the car, Sirius is perfect! at home, if I want serious listening music, I pull out discs & since I've discovered internet radio, I have even less need for FM for background music tongue.gif

but I realize it may be important to you so shop accordingly. the Pioneers have Pandora, internet radio stations, v-tuner for even more internet stations & Sirius support. my guess is don't be surprised if next year's models have spotify since that seems to be a "hot" item. but I don't have a Pioneer crystal ball, just going by a lot of posters talking about spotify wink.gif so I would think Pioneer will pick up on the interest.

call Pioneer & let 'em know you'd like to see HD radio support. also remind them Denon has it wink.gif

Steve
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post #815 of 1849 Old 01-15-2013, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by soniky View Post

I purchased an album in 24bit/192kHz FLAC format. There are 5 tracks and I downloaded them to a USB drive to play it on SC-68. It has no problem playing the first two tracks, but shows "File Format Error" (or something in that nature as I don't have it in front of me now) on all the other 3 tracks. However, the same USB drive plays totally fine on my PC with other software. I don't have other 24/192 FLAC to test with. This is very discouraging. I wonder if other people having this same issue or not.

Wonder if anyone has tried 24/192 playback and is there any issues?
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post #816 of 1849 Old 01-15-2013, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post



It's been my observation over the years that on these SC models, Pioneer seems to choose to spend more resources on the amp development, THX certifications & other unique features while the other companies do GUI's and their own unique features wink.gif it's your choice which are the most valuable to you and shop accordingly.

I've recently viewed several online video reviews of the Denon 4520, Pioneer SC-68 & Onkyo 5010 from a reviewer/dealer in Germany. they're on youtube, in German & youtube's translation capability is beta so it's not smooth & precise. but you can get the gist of it fairly well by following the guy while reading. he also does actual bench test measurements on each one so it's not the typical "sounds great" kind of subjective crap you see in reviews wink.gif

he also rates them in a lot of areas - audio quality, room correction, bass, treble, midrange clarity, ability to reproduce dynamics, GUI, features, etc. and gives them a scorecard...

in audio quality, he scores the Pioneer in some areas a bit better than the Denon 4520 and the 4520 a bit better than the Pioneer but in all cases, he rates both as better than the Onkyo. differences are not by much but his overall rankings are Denon 4520, Pioneer SC-68, then Onkyo 5010. and the only reason the Denon gets the nod on audio quality is he seems to think it's a little better in "naturalness" as he calls it, slightly better in midrange (i.e. 10 vs a 9, again not much difference) while the Onkyo gets an 8. but the Pioneer beats them both in his opinion on bass & dynamics, no doubt due to the class D amps and producing more power all channels driven.

in fact, his power measurements on the Denon vs the Pioneer are surprising. and it's all due to the limited power supply in the Denon. the 4520 drops to 35 watts per ch (5 ch driven) while the Pioneer stays up close to 100 watts, I think about 90 IIRC. that's a big difference!
Thanx for the info.

I am seriously leaning towards the Pioneer.
I can no longer haul 120 lb. amps up stairs...you know, old age and stuff.biggrin.gif

Anyway, decided I'll have to go with a light Class D receiver from now on.

Are there any others in the pipeline before this spring?
Probably will be buying in April....

A.P.S. deserve our protection....join the cause today!
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post #817 of 1849 Old 01-15-2013, 02:59 PM
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Has anyone been using the SC68 with front height speakers?

If so, any comments?

I'm especially interested in what speakers you used.
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post #818 of 1849 Old 01-15-2013, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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^^
yes and as long as you get some that reasonably are close to timbre matching your fronts, you don't need much. For example, I have a all Magnepan speaker setup except the rears and the heights. amazingly my rears are old bookshelves, EPI, from '72, which have integrated well with Maggies even when I had a quadraphonic setup smile.gif and the heights are Martin Logan Motion 4's, the small curvy shaped bookshelves with a ribbon- like tweeter,. they also timbre match exceptionally well with my fronts which are planar panels with ribbon tweeters.

some will recommend dipolar/bipolar models like the z speakers from Atlantic Technology. Personally, even tho Maggies are dipolar planars, the side surrounds are highly localized and distinct & that's my preference. I chose not to go bipolar types for heights since I didn't want spurious reflected about diffuse sound to degrade the front soundstage, so I went with monopole normal bookshelves. it's a matter of personal preference. plus space wink.gif I really didn't have the spacing for a wide or tall speaker since my fronts are 6' tall as it is wink.gif

you also don't need big bass unless you happen to find a speaker you like that also produces bass in 50-60 Hz range. but it's not needed. the Motion 4's roll off between 80-100 and with the Pioneer crossed over at 80, I'm not really missing anything.

keep in mind, heights are derived from the surrounds with PLIIz and surrounds/fronts with NeoX so you don't need them to produce bass. they will be bass managed to the sub anyway.

the effect is variable - from nothing to an sense of added ambience. with sounds like helicopters, planes, rain, you'll get a sense of height, even localized height but it will all be from the front, obviously. the movie Quarantine (B scifi horror) has some great effects with helicopters circling the apt bldg and with heights their sound really does get projected from higher up - one of the more obvious effects. with movie scores, it'll add ambience but whether you like that effect or not depends on the music & your preference. it's subtle but sometimes it seems like there's nothing there, but you can notice it. on pure music, even tho I'm a multichannel music junkie biggrin.gif I have tended to not use hts. since I want localizable, discrete sound from around me not diffuse up the highly localizable fronts. but many do use it for music and like the added ambience, similarly like some like adding PLIIx to 2 ch music. it depends on the style of music & preference.

is it a must have item? absolutely not! I was very happy with 7.1. I did want to try it out since I now had it with the 68 and I'm glad it's there but I wouldn't say I use it all the time. IMO, it can help with some discs and in some ways, detract from others. what I do is cycle thru the formats, listen for a few minutes and settle on one I like the best for that movie. I may switch around during the course of the movie when sound effects liven up to see if something's better but usually the one I started with is the one I stay with smile.gif

and I tend to like PLIIz better than NeoX. it has less impact on what I'm hearing from the fronts. Neo changes the front soundstage to a greater degree IME and usually not to my liking. hard to describe but it seems to squeeze the sound more to the center, at least that's what it seems to my ears in my room with my speakers smile.gif IIz just adds a sprinkle of ambience & sense of height but doesn't change the fronts/center

speakers - for monopoles, there are thousands of good choices but I looked at & listened to Martin Logan Motion 4, Motion 16, the new DefTech Studio Monitors, the 55 I think (good on bass biggrin.gif) but any small bookshelf will work depending on the space you have, how you're going to mount it (that's important & what I spent a LOT of time researching - Omnimount, Sanus, & many other wall mounting brackets - what *could* work & what *wouldn't* work)

for bipoles, you probably have hundreds of good choices, every speaker brand making HT speakers has surrounds that are bipolar/dipolar diffuse type speakers. I considered DefTech bipoles, and Atlantic Technology's Z bipolar speaker & checked a whole lot of surrounds from many of the major brands. Polk, Axiom, Paradigm, Energy, DT, Martin Logan, on & on have scads of suitable bipolar types that would work.

for the record, the reason why I didn't go with Magnepan is they really don't have a speaker suitable for height channels so my mission was to find one suitable for the space, that I could mount very close to the ceiling & walls plus had a similar treble sound to Maggies smile.gif that's why I went with one I could listen to wink.gif

where to locate - Dolby suggested layout is right above the fronts. DTS also has them directly above but says above & to the outside of the fronts is good also. Audyssey DSX is specific about putting hts outside the fronts at 45 deg angles to mlp. in my case, directly above was not an viable option with 6' fronts, so I put them above & slightly to the sides of my fronts. this is my opinion, but slightly to the outside will broaden the effect, and to me, sounds great. there's someone in the Denon AVP thread who placed his directly above his side surrounds! for similar reason, tall e-stat panels & not wanting to degrade the front soundstage. he likes the added height effect right above his surrounds & he doesn't use Neo X much so not worried about bleeding some of the fronts to sides. as you can see, even tho there are "rules" they are mostly guidelines & the rules can be bent smile.gif

hope this dissertation helped you eek.gif
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post #819 of 1849 Old 01-15-2013, 04:17 PM
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Steve,

Thank you so much. I was looking at the Martin Logans as well.

I am also a surround sound junkie. I have a 7.1 setup now and am looking forward to trying 9.2.

Thank you.

Jack
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post #820 of 1849 Old 01-15-2013, 04:39 PM
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OT: Steve, did you think about trying the Maggie MC1's hanging horizontally near the ceiling, or using their center speakers hung high, for heights?

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #821 of 1849 Old 01-15-2013, 09:17 PM
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I'm planning in changing my A/V Receiver. I currently have Onkyo 5009 powering my 9.2 Goldenear set up.
I'm thinking of getting the Pioneer Elite SC-68 / Pioneer LX-86...

Any of you guys who have the same combo of Pioneer and Goldenear?
How's the SQ?

Many thanks smile.gif

BTW here's the picture of my current set up :cheer:

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post #822 of 1849 Old 01-16-2013, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

OT: Steve, did you think about trying the Maggie MC1's hanging horizontally near the ceiling, or using their center speakers hung high, for heights?

my OT answer smile.gif

yes I did, actually very much considered it. saw a few photos scattered about the 'net where the user had MC1's horizontally mounted. I also called Wendell Diller @ Magnepan about it. He's basically not real big on heights with Maggies anyway. his opinion was while I could use MC1's that way, he didn't normally recommend that positioning. In his view, there could be some dispersion & resulting phase accuracy issues with the fronts that might degrade the front soundstage. I'm not sure that's any different than their centers, tho confused.gif

I really didn't consider their centers due to the new ones being severely bass limited, as you well know wink.gif Since Pioneer only has 1 xo, mixing a 200 hz speaker with all the rest @ 80 hz didn't sound like something I wanted to do. I did add a DWM for the CC3 center & got it to sound pretty decent but it took some fiddling with a resister & a MCACC re-cal. adding 2 more DWM's just to make Maggie centers work as heights adds significantly to the cost - close to $4K! while the 2 M-L Motions cost $500! I'm willing to spend money to experiment but not that much money tongue.gif

Wendell's advice to best improve HT sound was to upgrade the center to Tricenter approach if I had room or go with the $3500 CCR wink.gif we discussed this in the Maggie thread. I did audition the CCR & it was very nice but not 3.5 times better than the CC3 IMO. and certainly not to the extent of it ending up costing about $5K with corresponding DWM bass panel!

Despite what Wendell says about bass management & using their wiring scheme to get around it...I think he's "wrong" for the majority of typical owners with typical gear & HT setups. IMHO, Magnepan needs to re-think this. maybe they couldn't do 80-100 Hz with the new center designs but it sure complicates life unless you're willing to wire the sub their way. which I wasn't...I suspect going to different panel materials for the new design, all bent in a curve might have presented some material-construction challenges & still meet their audio standards. maybe curving the new materials caused higher distortion @ lower bass. I can't imagine them deliberately setting out to design it with a 200 Hz cut-off.

my usual long answer to a question aside redface.gif, that's why I went with something else that sounded compatible.

btw - SC-57 owner purdyd has the small Mirage omni-sat's for heights with his Maggies. I listened to them too but IMO, the Motion 4's totally blew them away. the omni-sats had a totally flattened & dull soundstage to my ears with imprecise imaging. no comparison, I didn't have to listen more than a few seconds to reject them. even though this was for heights, again I didn't want that kind of diffuse, non-localized sound up front. purdy likes his tho, so to thine own ears be true smile.gif

Steve
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post #823 of 1849 Old 01-16-2013, 10:26 AM
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Steve,

I greatly appreciate your insight with the high fronts.

I see you looked at the Definitive Monitor 55 before choosing the ML Did you look at all at the pro Monitor 1000?

From an aesthetic standpoint, a deep speaker isn't pleasing.... The 1000 is not as deep.

Any thoughts?

I greatly appreciate the help.

One other thing. I read the not have bipolar speakers? That they should be front firing and pointing directly to the listening area?

Thank you
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post #824 of 1849 Old 01-16-2013, 12:42 PM
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Ok I set my panny hdmi input on hdmi2 ARC ano my sc-68 to hdmi2. I still unable to recieve any audio sound. How do turn on the hdmi2 input?
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post #825 of 1849 Old 01-16-2013, 01:03 PM
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This is what I tried with my setup for ARC. I don't know if my TV supports ARC or not.... but tried anyway.

TV and SC-67 were connected through HDMI (OUT1). Changed necessary settings but no ARC from TV. So connected TV using optical cable.

Read page 70 of owners manual for HDMI ARC setup.
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post #826 of 1849 Old 01-16-2013, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterK View Post

Well I just don't understand why Steve would base his purchasing upon metal knobs. Silly. Ridiculous.
I mean would one purchase the 67-68 for the copper colored screws on the back?
As for me, I have decided upon the 68 over the 67 for one practical useful difference.
I have to have the gold plated connectors!!!

Does that make me as anal as Steve?? eek.gif

I just bought the SC-67 yesterday, the dealer said the difference between the SC-68 is the USB DAC, well turns out there is more. The gold plated terminals, the analog inputs for multichannel, settings for precision distance, ceramic speaker terminals, power rating slightly higher plus THX Ultra 2.

I had the SC-57 and that had gold plated terminals and analog inputs for multichannel. I absolutely am pissed with Pioneer since the list price for both are almost same. Pioneer should understand that not everyone needs a USB DAC hence they have the SC-68 which is higher priced understandable. I have a high end DAC so don't need that function.

But why leave out the gold plated terminals etc. Absolute mind boggling that now I have to get the SC-68 even though the DAC will be a complete waste for me just to get the analog and gold plated terminals.

One would absolutely think the logical replacement for SC-57 would be the SC-67 this is f@#$!@# gouging the customer. Anyways haven't opened the unit as most likely get the damn SC-68 even though I don't need the DAC function. Plus for the same price as last years SC-57 which had THX Ultra and the SC-67 THX Select, coooommmmooon!

Anybody feel the same and find my argument logical looking at the model numerology?!

Thanks and sorry for the rant.
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post #827 of 1849 Old 01-16-2013, 02:00 PM
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If you need multichannel and the SC-57 does not have them then you'll have to go with the 68 if it does (I don't own them and am too lazy to go download and peruse the manuals). I don't particularly care about gold-plated connections; never had significant connection issues (don't use banana plugs) and suspect the gold is thin enough to be more for looks anyway. As for the rant, marketing is as marketing does, and why didn't you check before you bought? Not saying I or others might not do the same thing... I am more wary since I have seen a lot of "older" features dropped off the last generation or two of AVRs.


@Steve: Thanks for the explanation! Yeah, we have been in agreement since day 1 on the CC5 and CCR LF cut-off (too bloody high). I don't really have a good place for a DWM or similar but with my small room it has not been an issue. As you know, my subs are in parallel with my big Maggies, using an active crossover, and so I don't need to worry about the main crossovers (they are large, rest of speakers "small"). I got lucky and did all that before I knew the Pio crossover issue. Sidenote on the Mirage system: I have a complete Mirage 7.1 system sitting in storage. The little satellites I thought worked OK but since they are omni's in the tweeter and have a small little "woofer" it is a little hard to dial them in, and they just can't throw a soundstage like the Maggie panels. Thus MC-1's everywhere in my room...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #828 of 1849 Old 01-16-2013, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

If you need multichannel and the SC-57 does not have them then you'll have to go with the 68 if it does (I don't own them and am too lazy to go download and peruse the manuals). I don't particularly care about gold-plated connections; never had significant connection issues (don't use banana plugs) and suspect the gold is thin enough to be more for looks anyway. As for the rant, marketing is as marketing does, and why didn't you check before you bought? Not saying I or others might not do the same thing... I am more wary since I have seen a lot of "older" features dropped off the last generation or two of AVRs.


@Steve: Thanks for the explanation! Yeah, we have been in agreement since day 1 on the CC5 and CCR LF cut-off (too bloody high). I don't really have a good place for a DWM or similar but with my small room it has not been an issue. As you know, my subs are in parallel with my big Maggies, using an active crossover, and so I don't need to worry about the main crossovers (they are large, rest of speakers "small"). I got lucky and did all that before I knew the Pio crossover issue. Sidenote on the Mirage system: I have a complete Mirage 7.1 system sitting in storage. The little satellites I thought worked OK but since they are omni's in the tweeter and have a small little "woofer" it is a little hard to dial them in, and they just can't throw a soundstage like the Maggie panels. Thus MC-1's everywhere in my room...



Well I did not have any idea as when you do the comparison it no where states the gold plated terminals till you download the product brochure or look closely at the picture, but in the comparison it does state about the analog inputs which I missed.

As I said as logical as the model numbers are we should be expecting the same features as the 57 for the 67 not a downgrade as the price is same. Since they are charging more for the 68 which is fine due to the DAC. My gripe is that I don't need the DAC but need the gold plated terminals and multichannel analog on the damn SC-67 since the 57 had it.

It is absolutely gouging the customer IMO. Trust me after I sold the SC-57 last year, I bought the Cary Cinema 12 and Cary matching 7 channel amp. They are $9000 retail and I bought new, of course didn't pay retail price! Sold the Cary as the HDMI quarks were too much, sound was phenomenal. Plus I am a 2 channel guy and always had a AV receiver connected in HT Bypass mode. This is what I have gone back to again.

So its not about the money but logic and principal if being short changed compared to last years pioneer model!
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post #829 of 1849 Old 01-16-2013, 03:10 PM
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Just set up the 68 with my HTPC over HDMI. The menu on the install disc would not come up in TMT or WMP (showed the disc, but would not play it), so I right clicked and double clicked the USB DAC setup file, and installed the USB DAC driver that way. Everything seemed to go o.k., and a pop up said the devices were installed. However, I don't see any USB-DAC device listed in the control panel, it does show the Pioneer as being on the network. However - no "Pioneer USB Audio Device" is listed, so I can't select it - and I think that is the trouble. Oddly, it listed the device as being installed in a pop-up in the lower right of Win 7. So, since only HDMI and Realtek show up in my list of playback devices, I can't select anything other than HDMI, which is set to stereo. When I switch to the USB-DAC input, there is only a blue screen with no sound showing HDMI1 as the source. I called Pioneer, and they said my problem is that the USB only is for High Res files, and I need another player (I used WMP), as the USB output is only enabled through software like Jriver, Media Monkey, Foobar etc. Is that true? I play FLAC through WMP in windows 7, and it plays the files with no problem, I also tried Windows lossless. I thought I only had to play a file, and select USB on the Pioneer, and I would be fine. I realize that WMP doesn't support Flac, but is it true that I have to buy other software to use the USB DAC in any manner whatsoever? I have a short USB cable hooked into USB 3.0 on the HTPC, could the cable need an upgrade? Should I try a different USB port for the install?
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post #830 of 1849 Old 01-16-2013, 03:29 PM
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I may have committed a faux-pas by creating a new thread on this rather than posting here.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1452373/pioneer-sc-68-getting-hdmi-audio-and-video-to-work-simultaneously-from-mac
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post #831 of 1849 Old 01-16-2013, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moooog View Post

I called Pioneer, and they said my problem is that the USB only is for High Res files, and I need another player (I used WMP), as the USB output is only enabled through software like Jriver, Media Monkey, Foobar etc. Is that true?

no that's doesn't sound like it's true.

If you go way back to near the beginning of this thread, I posted that I tried the USB-DAC using a win XP tablet, with WMP11 and itunes, playing 44.1 wav, mp3 & apple's aac format mp4 files....hardly hi-rez tongue.gif and I had no problems having my laptop recognized by the receiver. as far as that goes, it worked OK. so if what he told you was the reason why yours wasn't recognized, then I'd say he was wrong. as to whether the driver did anything with WMP and whether I could detect a difference in audio quality, I couldn't say for sure. I'm not a good judge of that compared to some of you experienced computer audio fans. maybe I don't know what I was supposed to hear or the software supposed to be used but there is no mention of any software limitations using that driver anywhere in any Pioneer documentation I know of, including tech info given out to dealers that I happen to have wink.gif

the manual doesn't mention any particular playback software & lists all the file formats supported by the USB function on page 53 & they range from low bitrate mp3 to 192kHz/24 bit hi-rez. and the output being enabled only with the software he mentioned? if that were the case, Pioneer should state so in the manual & there's no mention of any particular playback software needed. not in my 2 calls with Chris Walker early on did he ever mention it & he's the head of marketing for PioUS home audio div.

I have no doubt that the optimum benefit will be with hi-rez files using the more robust software you mentioned but that doesn't mean the driver isn't activated using something else. there's a new review up on hometheaterhifi.com and the reviewer goes into using the USB-DAC & file formats. he doesn't mention any limitations with the driver.

in this thread, I think the go-to experts are soniky & bbear. you were part of those posts IIRC. go back 1 or 2 pages & you'll find their posts on using USB-DAC with WMP & other software. I think one of them concluded that with Win XP, WMP doesn't use the best transfer mechanism but with Win7 it might...their discussion was way over my head but if you understand the terminology, like ASIO, etc. you might get something out of their posts.

for the record, at least 1 poster said Apple Mac's don't need the driver, native support for async transfer and that new review says the same thing. the driver is needed for Windows, so I would think the use of WMP is implied.

but I'm not a computer audio user so my knowledge is very limited compared to someone like bbear & soniky.

maybe one of them will see this & chime in. I defer to their opinions & knowledge whether there's any merit in what the Pioneer rep told you.

Steve
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post #832 of 1849 Old 01-16-2013, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaticape68 View Post

I may have committed a faux-pas by creating a new thread on this rather than posting here.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1452373/pioneer-sc-68-getting-hdmi-audio-and-video-to-work-simultaneously-from-mac

I don't own a Mac so not sure I can help but I'll read thru it. if I have something to contribute, I will smile.gif hopefully, there's a Mac owner who can help you.

Steve
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post #833 of 1849 Old 01-16-2013, 05:34 PM
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Im kinda new to AV for the home....but Iv been involved with Pro-Audio for a long tym....Im a musician......and I was givin a great piece of advice one tym.......I was told to " ALLWAYZ " !!!!!! Get a Power Conditioner/Serge protector......and I dont mean one of those lil power strips......The guy I was talkin to had sumwhere between $10 and $12 grand into his Sound system.....there was a power serge one nite....and he "WAS NOT" protected.....his system is now a $12,000 paper weight ......Take the tym and get a real good Monster or its equivalent power protector....
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post #834 of 1849 Old 01-16-2013, 05:59 PM
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I've tried 4 different USB cables, and a 2nd computer - this one using XP - and plugged the cables into the ports clearly labeled USB 2.0 on the computer, and the same thing is happening. It unpacks the setup, and then a popup window comes up saying "please connect the pioneer usb audio device". I'll click on ok 3 times, then nothing happens. The same thing happens on the original computer. HDMI also loses synch and will not come back if I remove the USB cable from the SC-68, unless I unplug and replug the HDMI. One of the USB cables is a pretty nice 1 foot Belkin cable. It would seem that the USB port on the SC-68 is bad, pretty disappointing. I updated the Receiver, but that didn't help.
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post #835 of 1849 Old 01-16-2013, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moooog View Post

I've tried 4 different USB cables, and a 2nd computer - this one using XP - and plugged the cables into the ports clearly labeled USB 2.0 on the computer, and the same thing is happening. It unpacks the setup, and then a popup window comes up saying "please connect the pioneer usb audio device". I'll click on ok 3 times, then nothing happens. The same thing happens on the original computer. HDMI also loses synch and will not come back if I remove the USB cable from the SC-68, unless I unplug and replug the HDMI. One of the USB cables is a pretty nice 1 foot Belkin cable. It would seem that the USB port on the SC-68 is bad, pretty disappointing. I updated the Receiver, but that didn't help.
I'm thinking your not setting the computer up to output audio over USB correctly. I have both a Macbook Pro and a HP laptop that I have used the USB input on the SC-68 with no issues. I use high speed 2.0 cables no longer then 6ft in length. I run J Rivers software for PC and Channel D with iTunes with my Macbook Pro. Both computer I have to setup the USB each time I want to use it.
Make sure your on the USB input on the SC_68 before you connect the USB. make sure your cables are high speed 2.0 rated.
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post #836 of 1849 Old 01-16-2013, 07:43 PM
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Well, I tried the ideas - thank you - , but didn't have any luck. However, the good news is that I had no problem running the disc on our ancient "family laptop", that has all the kids edu software and stuff that I won't allow to "mess up " my computer. The laptop recognized the Pioneer Audio Device, and installed everything properly. The problem might be something to do with Internet Explorer on my HTPC, although I believe I tried setting different browsers as default, and still the software wouldn't autorun or install properly when I clicked on the setup. It's also hard to install the right way without a 2nd monitor in my HT. The other computer was a netbook, so I again was clicking on the setup file on a USB thumb drive. Trying to install this way just didn't work for me, and I never saw the user agreement screens etc. I guess I could try making an ISO, and perhaps repairing Internet Explorer. If I'm wrong, and should be able to get the software running through Google Chrome or Firefox, let me know. The only audio on the Laptop were the Beethoven and Highway Blues songs, they sounded very good at first, but some static started to crop up towards the end.
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post #837 of 1849 Old 01-16-2013, 08:22 PM
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I have been testing out the network functions. I was able to get internet radio working along with Pandora and XM. For some reason I cannot get Media Server to work. The front panel keeps saying "Please Wait" for over an hour. Network settings are set to DHCP on receiver and router is also set to DHCP. I checked receiver network info and it has a vaild IP Address, Subnet Mask and Default Gateway. I entered receiver IP address in my browser and was able to view receiver's configuration page on my PC. I have 2 PCs on network along with a Synology DS1511+ Diskstation raid server. All have music and video files on them. I use a HDI Dune Max player to access these files and play them with no problems.

The manual mentions receiver must be authorized and it happens automatically when it makes a connection over the network to a PC. If not please authorize receiver receiver manually on the PC. If someone knows how to do this please advise what else needs to be configured.
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post #838 of 1849 Old 01-16-2013, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moooog View Post

I've tried 4 different USB cables, and a 2nd computer - this one using XP - and plugged the cables into the ports clearly labeled USB 2.0 on the computer, and the same thing is happening. It unpacks the setup, and then a popup window comes up saying "please connect the pioneer usb audio device". I'll click on ok 3 times, then nothing happens. The same thing happens on the original computer. HDMI also loses synch and will not come back if I remove the USB cable from the SC-68, unless I unplug and replug the HDMI. One of the USB cables is a pretty nice 1 foot Belkin cable. It would seem that the USB port on the SC-68 is bad, pretty disappointing. I updated the Receiver, but that didn't help.

I had similar problems when I first tried using the USB-DAC. The catch was that for the USB port to be active (and for the computer to be able to see that. It is present and therefore be able to finish installing the driver) you have to switch the SC-68 to the USB-DAC input.

An odd design, if you ask me, but maybe Pioneer shut the USB circuitry off deliberately when not using USB-DAC so as to avoid interference or something,

Anyway, I hope this helps
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post #839 of 1849 Old 01-16-2013, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moooog View Post

Well, I tried the ideas - thank you - , but didn't have any luck. However, the good news is that I had no problem running the disc on our ancient "family laptop", that has all the kids edu software and stuff that I won't allow to "mess up " my computer. The laptop recognized the Pioneer Audio Device, and installed everything properly. The problem might be something to do with Internet Explorer on my HTPC, although I believe I tried setting different browsers as default, and still the software wouldn't autorun or install properly when I clicked on the setup. It's also hard to install the right way without a 2nd monitor in my HT. The other computer was a netbook, so I again was clicking on the setup file on a USB thumb drive. Trying to install this way just didn't work for me, and I never saw the user agreement screens etc. I guess I could try making an ISO, and perhaps repairing Internet Explorer. If I'm wrong, and should be able to get the software running through Google Chrome or Firefox, let me know. The only audio on the Laptop were the Beethoven and Highway Blues songs, they sounded very good at first, but some static started to crop up towards the end.

I experienced some issues when using Chrome for the install, I think I ended up using IE to get the install to complete. It has been a while so I am sorry to sound so vague.
Also I remember being unable to install AVNavigaror from the CD but was able work around this by copying the CD contents to my hard drive and running the install from there.

The Pioneer CD, install process and USB-DAC driver seems to be really flakey, or at least to is my experience on XP.
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post #840 of 1849 Old 01-17-2013, 03:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbear View Post

the USB port to be active (and for the computer to be able to see that. It is present and therefore be able to finish installing the driver) you have to switch the SC-68 to the USB-DAC input.

yes, that's true. to me it seemed intuitive to have the receiver set to the USB-DAC input but then again, maybe not smile.gif

I totally agree Pioneer should have better driver install & directions on using the USB-DAC in the manual.

I really hesitate to mention this since these steps are so basic & you guys are far more experienced than I on networked audio but I will anyway just in case it could help someone redface.gif I know they're old hat so don't groan redface.gifwink.gif

for the ones who can't get the receiver & WMP to communicate

1. was Media Sharing enabled in WMP?
2. was there a software firewall, other than window's, in place?

I do agree, bbear, that some of the issues could be avoided with better information in the manual on using the CD, which has been vexing to some owners, installing the driver, which software is supported, etc.

I hate to say this but you can't always rely on things Pioneer Customer/Tech Support says as gospel. they've been shown to be wrong on occasion. one of the classic bloopers is a support rep an AVSForum poster that using 4 ohm speakers with Ice amps might catch it on fire tongue.gif that support rep had no clue that B&O, who makes the Ice amp modules, has 4 ohm ratings for them rolleyes.gif that was about the worst case of support BS given to an AVSForum poster I can recall.

obviously we can't dismiss Pioneer support. some of the advice given to posters has been good but their knowledge is limited to what they've been provided & some of them I've talked with admitted to me they had no hands-on experience with the model in question.

the fact that one talked about jriver, foobar, etc seems to suggest he knew what he was talking about but I think he added 1 + 1 and got 3 tongue.gif you can be right about some things but draw the wrong conclusion, in this case that failure for WMP to recognize the receiver being due to the file format & media player and that's is certainly screwed up thinking & wrong!

I believe that the most benefit from async transfer is with hi-rez audio but that doesn't mean it won't work with lo-rez files. that's backwards logic.

Steve
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