Official Pioneer SC-68/67 Thread - Page 31 - AVS Forum
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:56 AM
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We were doing some sound comparisions with oppo BDP-105 using oppo"s analog out puts yesterday. With SC-68. They both sound great and both have their own charactors to it. I didnt compare their usb dac inputs yet. Oppo sounded just perfect on two channels stereo out puts but sc-68 had more percise tight control over acoustics but also we bit warm but refined. Thats may be that oppo has about 50 hours of playing time and sc-68 had no more than 4 hours. Oppo was very warm in those early hours. Therefore i think it is a base less comparison at this stage?
On the picture quality: cant see any difference between oppo, pioneer and straight out of motorola 3510m cable box on a 40" sony xbr tv. But when projected on a 150" screen then i have to say that oppo is better. No matter how you play with the settings, oppo makes the picture more refined. I dont know what they have done to the settings. We tried comparing the picture quality with onkyo tx-nr818 which has a descent chip but lower price point. Pioneer is much better than onkyo in picture quality but oppo comes out better in making picture less washed out and showed more depth. We watched in our family room which is not the best place for a projector.
All of the above is very subjective to our opinion. ( dont want any broken hearts LoL).

Now there is an issue that i need help with. I have purchased small speakers with the specks as follows.. I have to say for the price, these are amazong for medium size room and you can mount em upside down if your mounting them over 6 feet high because of their design. And they fill the room just great for me and they disapear physically and sound wise. pioneer just sounds great except one issue.
My automatic setup has setup the speakers at small sub=yes and crossover at 100hz. I can tell that i am missing some sounds inbetween at these settings. Can barely hear NFL reff and some other sounds in documentry. Setup has recognized 5.1 speakers setup just fine. Bass sounds good but its short at either end, not sure front or tail of the bass sound.
Next cross over option in SC-68 is 150hz. The manufacturer of these 5.1 speakers set advises crossover 120.


Satellite speakers:
Omnipolar technology creates a larger, more realistic soundstage
frequency response: 110-20,000 Hz (±3dB)
each handles up to 100 watts
sensitivity: 87 dB
3/4" PTH™ tweeter
2-3/4" Titanium Deposit Hybrid polypropylene woofer
wall-mounting brackets included
binding posts
4-1/4"W x 6"H x 4-3/4"D

Nanosat S8 subwoofer:
bass-reflex (ported) design
frequency response: 33-120 Hz
75-watt RMS amplifier
8" down-firing woofer with Ribbed Elliptical Surround™
12-1/4"W x 13-3/4"H x 13-1/2"D


Thank you in advance.
And thank you jbwitt for you suggetion on Remote control and i will look in to it.
Kris
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:21 AM
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Guys I am still in the loop and confused. I have the SC-67 sitting at home unopened and don't know if I should upgrade to the sc-68

As I dont need the DAC. Is it worth to upgrade to sc-68 just for the slightly higher power rating, gold plated terminals and ceramic speaker binding posts. I am coming from the sc-57 which had the gold terminals and ceramic speaker binding posts.

Any input would be appreciated??!! Need to act fast.

Thanks
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by cat3600 View Post

Guys I am still in the loop and confused. I have the SC-67 sitting at home unopened and don't know if I should upgrade to the sc-68

As I dont need the DAC. Is it worth to upgrade to sc-68 just for the slightly higher power rating, gold plated terminals and ceramic speaker binding posts. I am coming from the sc-57 which had the gold terminals and ceramic speaker binding posts.

Any input would be appreciated??!! Need to act fast.

Thanks

Cat,

Not sure if this helps but I went through the same selection process about two months ago. My priority was home theater first, music second. Running a 7.1 setup with some demanding 4 ohm KEF reference speakers in front. After alot of research and looking at the very helpful information from this forum, I went with the sc-67. At the time, the price was just over half the price of the 68 (I did some aggressive price shopping and comparison).

Couldn't be happier - receiver has been great and I haven't come anywhere close to maxing out the power supply. No regrets.

Good luck.
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Old 01-21-2013, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by iceman81 View Post

Cat,

Not sure if this helps but I went through the same selection process about two months ago. My priority was home theater first, music second. Running a 7.1 setup with some demanding 4 ohm KEF reference speakers in front. After alot of research and looking at the very helpful information from this forum, I went with the sc-67. At the time, the price was just over half the price of the 68 (I did some aggressive price shopping and comparison).

Couldn't be happier - receiver has been great and I haven't come anywhere close to maxing out the power supply. No regrets.

Good luck.


Thank you for the input!
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Old 01-21-2013, 11:13 AM
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Gold plated terminals do not enhance any sound quality, it's just a coating to prevent metal corrson over time. Connecting like to unlike metal surfaces would corrode faster compared to like to like metal contacts. But we are talking about something that take many years to develop. I am sure a little circuit contact spray would take care of it easily when it happens. Havn't found much info about ceramic terminals other than that ceramic is pretty much scratch proof.
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Old 01-21-2013, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by cat3600 View Post

Guys I am still in the loop and confused. I have the SC-67 sitting at home unopened and don't know if I should upgrade to the sc-68

As I dont need the DAC. Is it worth to upgrade to sc-68 just for the slightly higher power rating, gold plated terminals and ceramic speaker binding posts. I am coming from the sc-57 which had the gold terminals and ceramic speaker binding posts.

Any input would be appreciated??!! Need to act fast.

Thanks


Where do you see that the SC-68 has a higher power rating than the SC-67? I checked the pioneer website and they are both rated at 140 watts x 9 channels. In my option if MDAC isn't a requirement then the SC-68 isn't worth the extra cost.
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Old 01-21-2013, 11:41 AM
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Thanks gr8sound

Remote is OK but I am far sighted, can't see the printing, the red background light is no help. Can't find my glasses, cant find the light switch LOL! In doing a small comparison as this it is just that you can tell which remote is more advanced with on screen macros already developed . For me-It is the one with the LT-RT arrow and enter button while you look at the TV, job done. Oris it the one where all buttons on the remote look and feel the same and have to look at the remote to be sure-sometimes using a 2 button approach to get the job done. The Pioneer remote needs a little more Left-Right Arrow/Enter implementation. Most people don't fall into my catagory I assume.
Thanks,
Dave
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Old 01-21-2013, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colson79 View Post

Where do you see that the SC-68 has a higher power rating than the SC-67? I checked the pioneer website and they are both rated at 140 watts x 9 channels. In my option if MDAC isn't a requirement then the SC-68 isn't worth the extra cost.

It's somewhat confusing as they are generally listed as 140 x 9. In the manual it actually differentiates between the two, particularly at 6 and 4 ohms.

Top line differences 68 vs 67:

8 ohm multi channel continuous output 810w vs 770w
6 ohm 190w vs 180w per channel
4 ohm 250w vs 230w per channel

Pretty nominal in the scheme of things.
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Old 01-21-2013, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by colson79 View Post

Where do you see that the SC-68 has a higher power rating than the SC-67? I checked the pioneer website and they are both rated at 140 watts x 9 channels. In my option if MDAC isn't a requirement then the SC-68 isn't worth the extra cost.

If you download both models brochures then you will see the difference. I am not talking about the generic comparison.
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Old 01-21-2013, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colson79 View Post

Where do you see that the SC-68 has a higher power rating than the SC-67? I checked the pioneer website and they are both rated at 140 watts x 9 channels. In my option if MDAC isn't a requirement then the SC-68 isn't worth the extra cost.

I was confused when I got my SC68.

I knew that the power was 140 x 9.

The sticker on the SC68 said 190 x 9.

Not sure why.
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Old 01-21-2013, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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^^
190 is the 6 ohm rating which is used in Europe, UK, Australia (DIN)

one can look at the labeled number in several ways:

marketing 101, bigger is better wink.gif
same power rating for several regions (Japan uses 8 ohm like US)
one supplier label for both SC-68 & SC-LX86 (Europe)

online specs & manual do make it clear the difference is due to the ohm rating

Steve
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Old 01-21-2013, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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good news cool.gif

the gapless FW update announced by Pioneer couple months ago is available.

in checking the sites today, the FW update for gapless playback of aiff/alac/flac/wac files, is on Pioneer EU/UK sites since 12-21-12.

and just today, it's on Pioneer US site!

for the US just go to the FW update page and the gapless FW zip file is there & change history is updated. the new zip file is 1-204-084-513-160. according to info on EU site, it'll be same as Pandora update, USB only, not available over internet. format USB stick as FAT32, download the zip file to PC, unzip to the USB stick. should be 7 bin files with 252 as the last digits.

SC-68
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/AV-Receivers/Elite+Receivers/SC-68
SC-67
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/AV-Receivers/Elite+Receivers/SC-67

Europe SC-LX86:
http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/42/98/405/SC-LX86-K/page.html

Steve
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by iceman81 View Post

It's somewhat confusing as they are generally listed as 140 x 9. In the manual it actually differentiates between the two, particularly at 6 and 4 ohms.

Top line differences 68 vs 67:

8 ohm multi channel continuous output 810w vs 770w
6 ohm 190w vs 180w per channel
4 ohm 250w vs 230w per channel

Pretty nominal in the scheme of things.

Thanks for the info. It does seem pretty nominal and not worth the extra cost based on power output alone.
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:20 PM
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Correct, you need to look at the extra features the 68 provides over the 67. Power differences are minimal and I suspect even less than stated; they probably use the same supply and amps, but marketing needed to bump the numbers on the 68 since people expect more power (even though it does not matter).

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Correct, you need to look at the extra features the 68 provides over the 67

+1

Steve
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:42 PM
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I decided to get the 67 to replace my VSX-33. I'm still pretty much a disc spinner, and can't justify the extra cost of the 68. The 67 does everything I want (and more). Thanks for everyone's very helpful commentary. It made my purchasing decision an easy one.

JVC RS25 Projector

84" 16:9 Da-Lite Matte White Model C Screen

Panasonic TC-P65VT60 Display

Oppo BDP-103 Blu Ray Player

Pioneer Elite SC-67 Receiver

Pioneer SP-FS52 (2), SP-C22 (1), SP-B22 (4) 7.1 Speaker System

Rythmik F12 Subwoofer

Darbee Darblet Video Enhancer

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Old 01-21-2013, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dreamtheatre View Post

I decided to get the 67 to replace my VSX-33. I'm still pretty much a disc spinner

well, congratulations! biggrin.gif
nice to have another owner here.

confession - I'm very much a disc spinner too wink.gif

Steve
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Old 01-21-2013, 02:03 PM
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I decided to get the 67 to replace my VSX-33. I'm still pretty much a disc spinner, and can't justify the extra cost of the 68. The 67 does everything I want (and more). Thanks for everyone's very helpful commentary. It made my purchasing decision an easy one.

Thanks everybody good info
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Old 01-21-2013, 02:11 PM
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I forgot to add I guess its more of an ego since I always get the top model in an AV receiver and therefore I had the 57. My dealer insisted I go for the 67 if I didn't need the DAC. Its more money to him if I buy the 68 but he said most of his customers bought the 67 and that's why he is not stocking the 68, he is an Elite dealer for many years.
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Old 01-21-2013, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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I forgot to add I guess its more of an ego

some call it "pride of ownership" wink.gif

your dealer sounds like a practical sort. it's certainly up to you...if you value the extras, get 'em & not regret anything smile.gif

even though dissimilar metal corrosion/oxidation will be a long time coming (many years), I personally still prefer the gold plating, that's just me smile.gif I still have gear decades old w/o gold plating & every few yrs I remove the cables, take a pencil eraser to the jacks to rub off the film & brighten them up. but I've bought used vintage gear off ebay sellers that had so much oxidation that the silver-aluminum finish was completely dull gray & even showed white spots indicating mild pitting, probably due to long term storage in attics, basements, garages with moisture present. this is not conducive to good signal transfer but can be dealt with by using contact cleaner and a bit of friction smile.gif gold will stay oxidation-free but you'll probably trade this off before any serious oxidation starts.

in the end, if you think you'll get some use out of features like the USB-DAC & like the gold, copper screws & ceramic speaker jacks, and have harder-to-drive, 4 ohm speakers, the SC-68 may be for you smile.gif (peace of mind w/ Ultra 2 cert)

if you really don't think you need the extras in the SC-68, the 67 will do a great job - as several have pointed out, the power difference is minimal & features are about the same.

and like you, I also have preferred the top models. in the end, it's your money & receiver & not the dealer's so get what you think you'd be happiest with.
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Old 01-21-2013, 03:20 PM
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I just got my Pioneer SC-67 from Best Buy and set it up yesterday. One surprising omission is the Pioneer did not come with any instruction manual (you spend $1400 on a receiver it does not come with instructions?). You have to download it from the Pioneer site. The instructions are very vague and not written in a logical manner. It comes with a CD (AV Navigator) for use on a laptop to aid you in setting up the system but it does not run on a Mac.

It was noticeably lighter than my Onkyo TX-NR906 (54 lbs vs 38 lbs). The Pioneer no longer has that "Urushi" gloss black finish but rather a brushed aluminum look. Less smudges but it no longer matches my other Elite stuff. The speaker connections use banana plugs but the connectors themselves are rather flimsy and feel they will break if any tension is applied to it as the connectors bend readily. You can rename all the inputs (e.g. change DVD to Denon DVD3930) but the process is very long and tedious. The text goes through all the letters (upper and lowercase) as well as nearly every symbol on a keyboard, such as #,$,%, etc). BTW, when you are finished entering the new name, click on ENTER on the remote, do not click on RETURN or you will lose your settings.

I initially used it in stereo mode using an Oppo BDP-83SE (with the upgraded ESS DACs). The sound is noticeably different. The music seems cleaner with less grain than the Onkyo but the Onkyo seemed to be more robust in sound. The highs in the Pioneer is not as open as the Onkyo, the bass is not as extended as well. Soundstage and imaging on the Pioneer is notably better than the Onkyo.

I then ran MCACC through its paces. It reported that my center channel speaker is out of phase. I checked the connections and the speaker is definitely connected correctly. I am going to have to take down the speaker and check the wiring to see if there is anything amiss internally. After running MCACC the surround sounds more open and spacious than the Audyssey XT from the Onkyo, but bass was definitely light on the bottom end (it could be related to the phase issue on the center channel speaker).

I am using an Oppo BDP-83SE and a Pioneer BDP-09FD for movie playback. One thing I noticed immediately is that video appears a lot later on screen than my Onkyo (which was pretty slow in itself). For example, when I play a Paramount disc, the opening splash screen (the Paramount logo with High Definition text) the sound comes out first and the logo finally appears on screen near the end of the animation. There was no change in PQ as compared to my older Onkyo since video is passed through.

I have one BIG issue with the Pioneer. The remote control is useless. Totally sucks. Big time. I have never encountered one as bad as this one. It is long and slender. The buttons are all similarly sized and arranged in an unfriendly layout. The text is so small on it you cannot read it, I swear you really need a magnifying glass to read the darn thing. It is backlit but it's useless because its lit red (the red lit is very dim and button letters are mostly invisible) and most of the buttons are dual function and the function you need is not the one that is lit. I am resigned to the fact I will have to buy a universal remote to be rid of this annoyance.

I bought this receiver for its multi-zone capability and I have yet to get it working. I wanted to use a dual system in my home theater. I have my usual 7.1 setup for watching movies. But I also wanted to set up a second zone in the theater so I can use a different pair of speaker just for listening to CDs in stereo. When using the second zone, i do not want the 7.1 system engaged. I definitely have the second pair of speaker connected to the correct terminals. You have to engage the second zone from the front panel (you cannot activate it from the remote). But the 7.1 system comes on and the second pair of speakers is silent.

If it's not a BIG screen, it's not a theater...
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Old 01-21-2013, 03:53 PM
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I have one BIG issue with the Pioneer. The remote control is useless. Totally sucks. Big time.

I bought this receiver for its multi-zone capability and I have yet to get it working. I wanted to use a dual system in my home theater. I have my usual 7.1 setup for watching movies. But I also wanted to set up a second zone in the theater so I can use a different pair of speaker just for listening to CDs in stereo. When using the second zone, i do not want the 7.1 system engaged. I definitely have the second pair of speaker connected to the correct terminals. You have to engage the second zone from the front panel (you cannot activate it from the remote). But the 7.1 system comes on and the second pair of speakers is silent.

See my post above... I agree with the terrible remote comment in general. However, my multi-zone works great, and I use all 4 zones. You can definitely control all 4 zones from the remote in the box. I did for several days until I got my other remote programmed. Once you hit the zone button at the bottom of the remote it puts the remote into a different mode, and all of the input buttons will then send different discrete commands for that zone. And all of them are definitely independent, even the Z4 HDMI. I have the SC-67 but it has the same zone capabilities as the 68. If you haven't gotten it working yet I can only suggest rerunning the setup software. I'm pretty sure it adjusts some settings during the wire-up phase.
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Old 01-21-2013, 03:58 PM
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Question: Can I listen to an analog signal on Zone 2 without enabling the primary system (Zone 1?). I just want to listen to CDs in Zone 2 and not having to have the main system on.

I didn't see where anybody answered this.... it's yes. I do it all the time.
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:21 PM - Thread Starter
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You have to engage the second zone from the front panel (you cannot activate it from the remote). But the 7.1 system comes on and the second pair of speakers is silent.

you have a lot there to digest. as jbwitt said, you can activate all 4 zones from the remote. if it's just a B set of speakers in another room, try the Speakers button on the remote.

if you have a 2nd amp/receiver in zone 2, 3, 4 as described on pg 37, 38, then go to pg 79 in the manual, right hand side - heading: Multizone Remote Controls. at the bottom of the remote are buttons for zones 2, 3 & 4. the manual will explain this but you hit the zone button, then select the input, and adjust vol.

you do NOT have to have sound turned on in the main room. if you have a B set of speakers in the other room, just select B speakers, and your main ones will be off. don't play anything in the main room. if you have the true multizone setup with amp/receivers in other rooms, then the main zone will be not used unless you choose to play something in it. sure, it's active but that doesn't mean it's doing anything. if you think you have to hear sound in both rooms to hear sound in the 2nd room then that's incorrect. you can independently select inputs for each zone, and they don't have to be the same...so you can play CD in 1 and have the main zone set to something else playing or not playing anything.

your other comment on lack of manual - true but false. true, there's no printed manual. false in that you're not forced to download it...there's a pdf manual on the AVNav disc. didn't find it? it's there.

and for the record, NONE of the new models from Denon, Marantz & I think Onkyo too come with printed manuals. they've been done away with. all you'll get is a quick start guide, that's it. all of them are putting pdf's on setup discs now.

your frustration seems to me more due to a lack of familiarity with Pioneer coming from a Onkyo and the way things are now in the receiver business. sounds like you have the manual but the things you complain about are in the manual & can be accomplished by the remote. so its not as bad as you think wink.gif

on remotes -

I think the new Marantz AV8801 is getting good marks for its remote, but typically company supplied remotes all suck. once you get a decent programmable remote, you 1) won't need the Pioneer's & 2) won't care. they are that much superior to what comes in the box.

the best remote I ever had with Pioneer was the one that came with the flagships VSX-49TXI & VSX-59TXI, that was in the early & mid 2000's and it's been downhill ever since. both of them were comparable to a universal remote in the way they worked and what they did. the SC-68's is worse than the one I got with the super-flagship SC-09TX which was not as hi-tech as the LCD touchscreen one that came with the 59TXI. it is nearly useless in the dark, not because it's dim but because you can't read the labels. you have a valid criticism.

but hang with it, you'll catch on smile.gif

Steve
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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See my post above... I agree with the terrible remote
comment in general. However, my multi-zone works great, and I use all 4 zones.

agreed. you beat me while I was writing my reply. I was in editorializing mode tongue.gifwink.gif

Steve
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:27 PM
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Guys,
Is there a key combination to fully factory reset our SC-68?
Thanks smile.gif
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Old 01-21-2013, 07:34 PM
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press + hold tune down and press + hold Zone 3 for ten second until restart
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S View Post

I then ran MCACC through its paces. It reported that my center channel speaker is out of phase. I checked the connections and the speaker is definitely connected correctly. I am going to have to take down the speaker and check the wiring to see if there is anything amiss.
I am still learning how to use MCACC so others can chip in if anything I say is not accurate but I had the same issue when I first got my SC-68 and had thoughts about taking one of my surround speakers apart to see if there was a problem with its internal wiring. But I read the manual again and noticed where it said this can be caused when there is too much reflection for the MCACC to handle. I repositioned my speakers, moved my furniture around, pulled my drapes and it went through the MCACC ok. If you are certain the wiring to your speakers is correct you are supposed to just tell MCACC to continue.
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

To add to this so far it has played every single disc that has been thrown its way not the same can be said for a lot of other players out there.

And to add to this, it makes picture quality of my cable signal better than any high end receivers i have tested so for using it's hdmi inputs.
And the sound quality of the preamp very very good to my taste.
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by bbear View Post

I am yet to be impressed with the USB-DAC, I don't think that Pioneer have it working optimally yet. It may still sound better than your setup with sound card though due to the issues with playing digital audio through a regular PC audio card.

I don't know if it helps or not, but I would like to mention what I found out when researching computer audio and how I ended up with the adapter which I am using. Sorry if it is a bit long and reads like a volume of War and Peace smile.gif

I have been playing around with computer audio with my old Denon AVR for about a year. I also did a lot of research and came to the conclusion that to give me the best possible audio I needed to achieve the following:

1. Bit perfect reproduction
2. Low latency
3. lowest possible clock jitter
4. Bypass the Windows mixer

I read that by default PC audio cards and on board audio devices have problems with all of the above. (Macs less so). I came to the conclusion that I needed an adapter, and found there were two possible approaches:

a) USB to S/PDIF adapter
b) USB DAC ( I.e. with analogue output)

Since the vast majority of the time my equipment was being used for watching movies, it made sense to go with option a). The only thing I was concerned about at that time was whether the DAC in my Denon was up to snuff. All I knew about it was that it could handle up to 24bit at 96Khz. Option a) also gave me the option to upgrade to an external DAC if the one in my Denon proved inadequate.

So I set out to find an affordable USB to S/PDIF adapter. I had read about M2Tech's HiFace adapter and almost went for that, but stumbled across a review of the Mapleshade adapter, on which it is based. The Mapleshade adapter utilizes asynchronous USB, which apparently is preferred way of transferring digital audio from a computer. Even with asynchronous USB the jitter can still be pretty bad and so adapters like the Mapleshade employ re-clocking circuitry to further reduce the jitter. Mapleshade claimed to have put a lot of work into improving the clock jitter from the original HIFace. The review was very positive and talked about how 'musical' it sounded.

BTW, I have no idea what is an acceptable number for the clock jitter critical jitter is, all I knew from my research was that clock jitter can be a major contributor to computer audio sounding 'digital' and tiring to listen to over extended periods.

As to the latency concerns, why does it matter if audio takes 10ms or 500ms to arrive? To be honest I am not sure, maybe if it is not fixed and changes it becomes a problem? Anyway, I set about finding adapter which would work with ASIO as I read that was the way to get very low latency and bit perfect reproduction. I slipped up a little when I bought the Mapleshade adapter as I thought it was supported under ASIO but was wrong. However, I discovered ASIO4ALL as a way of getting ASIO like latency but using WDM. ASIO4ALL is a wrapper for WDM which achieves very low latency and bypasses the Windows Mixer. ASIO4ALL has been working great for me, and has the added benefit that I don't get the Windows system sounds going through it.

From what I read the Pioneer USB-DAC uses asynchronous USB and performs re-clocking, and it is capable of going to 32bit at 192Khz. If done right, it should sound really good but I have not found this to be the case yet. I suspect that Pioneers driver needs note work, possibly to make it work with ASIO.

I remember finding a really good article on the problems with computer audio, I will try to find it and post a link to it in this thread.


+1
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Pioneer , Pioneer Elite Sc 67 9 2 Channel Thx Select 2 Plus A V Receiver , Pioneer Elite Sc 68 9 2 Channel Thx Ultra 2 Plus A V Receiver , Receivers Amplifiers
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