Official Pioneer SC-68/67 Thread - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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post #1081 of 1854 Old 02-05-2013, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Signal1 View Post

TVMobili looks good. I like the feedback you are getting on the Icontrol app. I am not sure why you are set to media server when using the USB DAC? I want the best sound to get to the Pioneer so I thought you had to go directly to the USB/ Dac.

The "media server" (on the SC-68, it's a DLNA client) is the input source for network streaming, so that's why I'm using it. I have my whole iTunes music library at it's
disposal, plus I can stream video files on my iMac through my Samsung DLNA blueray interface as well.

You may be right - I don't know if the DAC is being used. Perhaps the SC-68 has a flac codec built into the media server?? But it may be using the DAC hardware for it.
Anyone know more about the internals?


PS: just wanted to add that since the FLAC file is actually being
rendered properly at 44.1kHz, what else other than the DAC could
be doing it? So from my thinking on this, the DAC has to be doing
the work. -Jim
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post #1082 of 1854 Old 02-05-2013, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by iceman81 View Post

Actually, you can have the best of both worlds. I found the best price on line (amazon, cnet) and took it to Best Buy - they now match on line prices. At the time, which was about 3 months ago, I saved almost 40% vs the bricks and motar price.

Many thanks Iceman81, I appreciate that advice. I'll give BB a try and see if they'll match it. Fingers crossed!
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post #1083 of 1854 Old 02-05-2013, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by JackVette View Post

According to Pioneer's website, if you buy from a non authorized dealer, you have no warranty.

Manhy of the online dealers are not authorized..... When I called them, they told me that they would supply a warranty from their own store (not a Pioneer warranty)

I luckily found a dealer who was authorized who sold to me at a great price. I felt fortunate.

My local BB would only match prices fulfilled by Amazon itself.... Not by amazon marketplace vendors.

If you can get BB to match, you are fortunate.

Thanks JackVette. I'm going to give BB a try. I called one of the online sellers as well and he said he has a bricks & mortar that is authorized, that he uses for the warranties. If BB doesn't work, I may go with him and get a SquareTrade warranty as back up.
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post #1084 of 1854 Old 02-05-2013, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by oztech View Post

If you want Pioneer to honor the warranty then yes some people take chances because they have a reputation of going obsolete rather than breaking.

Thanks oztech, I appreciate the advice...
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post #1085 of 1854 Old 02-05-2013, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lipton View Post

Thanks JackVette. I'm going to give BB a try. I called one of the online sellers as well and he said he has a bricks & mortar that is authorized, that he uses for the warranties. If BB doesn't work, I may go with him and get a SquareTrade warranty as back up.

You may have called the same person that I did. I really liked him and took a chance. He delivered exactly as he said.

I've ordered a few things from him so far. I checked his reputation out before I bought. I'm happy with him.

Best of luck.
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post #1086 of 1854 Old 02-05-2013, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by dreamtheatre View Post

Hate to admit it, but I am using lowly Pioneer FS52's, C22, and BS22's for the surrounds and rear. Believe it or not, these are very good speakers despite their price. I can easily tell the difference between my old VSX-33 and the SC-67, and I really can't give them a better recommendation than that.

Pioneer have the pedigree as speaker builders. They don't meet the typical Japanese reputation of building terrible speakers.

Theresa, I tried VLC. Soon after I discovered JRiver. The $50 entry price was well worth it for software that I would utilize often.
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post #1087 of 1854 Old 02-06-2013, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by JackVette View Post

You may have called the same person that I did. I really liked him and took a chance. He delivered exactly as he said.

I've ordered a few things from him so far. I checked his reputation out before I bought. I'm happy with him.

Best of luck.

JackVette, would you mind sharing his name/store name? The store I talked to was "Audio Video Sales Guy" via Amazon.
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post #1088 of 1854 Old 02-06-2013, 03:55 AM
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Lipton

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post #1089 of 1854 Old 02-06-2013, 04:38 AM
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I've been focused on buying the 67, but wonder if the 65 might be best. I know a few of the differences but wonder if anyone knows the most significant differences between the two. It's a $200 difference, part of which is the power diff. and the Air Studios cert., but I'm not sure what else. Thanks in advance for your advice...
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post #1090 of 1854 Old 02-06-2013, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goalline View Post

Pioneer have the pedigree as speaker builders. They don't meet the typical Japanese reputation of building terrible speakers.
.

Andrew Jones designed them, and from everything I have read he just didn't apply his name; he actually put a HUGE amount of effort into making these speakers shine. I have owned expensive speakers before (Onix Reference 3's), and they were certainly better in all respects. But, considering I paid 2/10th's of the price of the Ref 3's for an entire system I have to say the value of the Pioneer speakers is off the chart. They mate extremely well with the SC-67, and I am now content with my system. All I have to do now is sit back and enjoy the media.

JVC RS25 Projector

84" 16:9 Da-Lite Matte White Model C Screen

Panasonic TC-P65VT60 Display

Oppo BDP-103 Blu Ray Player

Pioneer Elite SC-67 Receiver

Pioneer SP-FS52 (2), SP-C22 (1), SP-B22 (4) 7.1 Speaker System

Rythmik F12 Subwoofer

Darbee Darblet Video Enhancer

DSpeaker Anti-Mode 8033Cinema...

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post #1091 of 1854 Old 02-06-2013, 10:03 AM
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I used to have an Onkyo TX-NR906. The calibration microphone was the same style as the Pioneer, a flat hockey puck design... Later, Onkyo replaced the microphone with one that looked like the Eiffel Tower with the microphone on the top of the tip. They replaced it because they found out that the flat design affected calibration due to acoustic interference from the flat design. I also noticed that Denon changed their design to the taller type. I wonder if the Pioneer flat design also has issues with interference from the flatter microphone. I still have my Onkyo. Maybe I will try to use their microphone and see if the results are different.

If it's not a BIG screen, it's not a theater...
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post #1092 of 1854 Old 02-06-2013, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00jmack View Post

The "media server" (on the SC-68, it's a DLNA client) is the input source for network streaming, so that's why I'm using it. I have my whole iTunes music library at it's
disposal, plus I can stream video files on my iMac through my Samsung DLNA blueray interface as well.

You may be right - I don't know if the DAC is being used. Perhaps the SC-68 has a flac codec built into the media server?? But it may be using the DAC hardware for it.
Anyone know more about the internals?


PS: just wanted to add that since the FLAC file is actually being
rendered properly at 44.1kHz, what else other than the DAC could
be doing it? So from my thinking on this, the DAC has to be doing
the work. -Jim

If you select "media server" on SC-68, then sc-68 is using DLNA. To use USB DAC on SC-68, you must select "USB DAC". Depends on the media server software that you use on your PC or MAC, you must also direct the software to stream to the output destination accordingly (i.e. DLNA or USB). FLAC is not a native audio format supported by DLNA. However, some media server software can transcode on the fly so that it can be played by a DLNA device.

DLNA and USB DAC are both just sort of a transport mechanism, i.e. taking digital data from one device to the other. They have different standards (restrictions) on different file formats, codecs, bit rates and resolution that they would support. DLNA uses IP networking (either wired or wireless) and USB DAC uses a USB cable (duh). When the transport is done right (which depends on your system and software), the sound quality after all is determined by the DAC (digital to analog conversion) and processing on the SC-68. USB DAC on SC-68 is for 2 channel audio only (see manual) while DLNA can support multi-channel audio (such as Dolby AC-3) and video (sch as MPEG2). If you demand high quality 2 channel audio, I would use USB DAC because it supports very high bit rate and resolution. However, DLNA is very convenient with remote control and management functions and can be done wirelessly (and you may or may not hear a difference). biggrin.gif
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Is the 67/68 a worth upgrade from an SC-05?

Only complaint right now is that my SC-05 only has one HDMI output, but I'd like for it to be able to provide projector and LCD connectivity.

Thanks.
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post #1094 of 1854 Old 02-06-2013, 04:19 PM
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Thinking of getting an SC-67 and hoping someone can answer my question. I have 2 rows of seating and want to have side surround speakers for each row. With only 1 set of side surround, anyway I could reassign the front height or front wide channels to play side surround? That would allow me to have an extra set of sides instead of buying another amp and splitting the side surround signal.

Also if i helps, I'm using a separate 3 channel amp for the LCR channels.
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post #1095 of 1854 Old 02-06-2013, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragged View Post

Thinking of getting an SC-67 and hoping someone can answer my question. I have 2 rows of seating and want to have side surround speakers for each row. With only 1 set of side surround, anyway I could reassign the front height or front wide channels to play side surround? That would allow me to have an extra set of sides instead of buying another amp and splitting the side surround signal.

Also if i helps, I'm using a separate 3 channel amp for the LCR channels.

I don't think re-assignment is possible, but you could always just bi-amp the sides.
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post #1096 of 1854 Old 02-07-2013, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragged View Post

Thinking of getting an SC-67 and hoping someone can answer my question. I have 2 rows of seating and want to have side surround speakers for each row. With only 1 set of side surround, anyway I could reassign the front height or front wide channels to play side surround?

nope smile.gif

the amp assignments are only those that are available in the speaker configuration menu.

what you describe is what was called a B set of surrounds. the A set was the normal pair. the B set could be used to duplicate sides in a long room or could be used for a separate, different pair of speakers for 5.1 music. for example, the A are at 90 deg to the side of the seats, and the B are a bit behind, more rearward, to reproduce 5.1 music exactly in the positions they were recorded, the ITU standard.

the use of B surrounds only were in a few top flagship models, like the Pioneer VSX-49Txi, 59txi & SC-09TX, the Denon 5805 & 5308, Denon AVP prepro, and the former top Yamahas of 5 years+ ago. each of these models were in the $4500-7000 range and the feature has been dropped by everyone since Dolby introduced PLIIz for height speakers.

fwiw, the Denon developed a $1000 hardware/firmware upgrade pkg for 5308 & AVP owners that added Audyssey Multi32XT, 3D passthru, PLIIz, NeoX and several other newer Audyssey features, but in adding those, they took away the ability to use B surrounds.

you could use an external speaker switcher, like a Niles, to do something similar, switching one amp output to whichever pair you wanted to play or both pairs. however, only 1 pair of them will have a perfect calibration, since the other pair will be in a different position to the listening position where the mic was. that was the beauty of the receiver doing amp relay switching because both pairs would be individually calibrated when you ran MCACC.

I never thought of using 00jmack's idea of using bi-amping to do this redface.gif it could work if you want both speakers used at same time but you'd have the same limitations with MCACC calibration. you'd get a calibration of both of them blended together which might be a funky calibration. or you could hookup the front pair, calibrate them, hookup the 2nd pair and they'd use the same calibration obviously. not ideal but it might work OK. you'd have to experiment either way wink.gif

the top Denon 4520 & Onkyo 5010 models do have the ability to do free amp assignments but even then, I don't 100% positively know if owners can do 2 pairs of side surrounds & have them independently calibrated but I'm pretty sure they can't. otherwise it would be described in their manuals as A & B surrounds and that's not one of the options.

I've used B surrounds for 5.1 music ever since I owned the 49txi and still use them - that's 1 reason why I kept the SC-09 in my setup when I bought the SC-68. It's a bit cumbersome to switch back & forth between the 2 receivers but it works wink.gif

Steve
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post #1097 of 1854 Old 02-07-2013, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

no sure exactly what you mean but if you meant how do the 2 sound when used together, excellent. MCACC calibration will take into account the use of adding external amps for specific channels. if you remove the amp and go with the internal amps in the SC-68, just re-run MCACC. if you like to experiment between the 2, you can have 1 preset for the SC-68 by itself and create another preset for adding the amp (you can have 2 Symmetries, for example - an M1 & an M4 - or you can rename M4 to M4 Movies, renaming presets is in the manual)

if you mean how does one sound vs another, I guess that depends on the amp smile.gif I notice only very subtle differences going to a very hi powered 2 ch amp, mostly on how it handles transients like percussive attacks. but my speakers are notoriously inefficient and someone with a very efficient speaker, like a Klipsch, would probably notice no difference unless the volume were hi enough that the SC-68's amps were clipping wink.gif

Thank you for the response. What I meant is that since you've tested the SC-68 from both an external amp and directly through the internal amps, did you find a difference in sound quality for Home Theater use (highs, mid, panning, imaging, etc). There's always the endless debate that external amps change the sound etc. I currently have it connected with a NAD M25.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 06S2k View Post

Is the 67/68 a worth upgrade from an SC-05?

Only complaint right now is that my SC-05 only has one HDMI output, but I'd like for it to be able to provide projector and LCD connectivity.

Thanks.

I went from a SC-05 to the SC-68. I can't say that I found a night and day difference, but I did find a little one in the clarity of the detail and being a bit smoother. The big difference is the features though.
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post #1098 of 1854 Old 02-07-2013, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by soniky
Quote:
If you select "media server" on SC-68, then sc-68 is using DLNA. To use USB DAC on SC-68, you must select "USB DAC". Depends on the media server software that you use on your PC or MAC, you must also direct the software to stream to the output destination accordingly (i.e. DLNA or USB). FLAC is not a native audio format supported by DLNA. However, some media server software can transcode on the fly so that it can be played by a DLNA device. biggrin.gif

(In my case, I have transcoding turned off in TVMobiLi, so the streaming is directly from
the unaltered file on the computer)
Quote:
DLNA and USB DAC are both just sort of a transport mechanism, i.e. taking digital data from one device to the other. They have different standards (restrictions) on different file formats, codecs, bit rates and resolution that they would support. DLNA uses IP networking (either wired or wireless) and USB DAC uses a USB cable (duh). When the transport is done right (which depends on your system and software), the sound quality after all is determined by the DAC (digital to analog conversion) and processing on the SC-68. USB DAC on SC-68 is for 2 channel audio only (see manual) while DLNA can support multi-channel audio (such as Dolby AC-3) and video (sch as MPEG2). If you demand high quality 2 channel audio, I would use USB DAC because it supports very high bit rate and resolution. However, DLNA is very convenient with remote control and management functions and can be done wirelessly (and you may or may not hear a difference). biggrin.gif

I agree that DLNA and USB DAC are transport methods, but I think that once the data arrives,
the SC-68 may be smart enough to route the data to the appropriate DAC internally. This could
be the same DAC used by the USB interface.

I just played an "88" FLAC file (88.2kHz) streamed over ethernet via DLNA to the SC-68, and
the bitrate shown on the display is 8467 kbps (a pretty high bitrate :-)

screen pic:

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post #1099 of 1854 Old 02-08-2013, 01:25 AM
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Will I be able to run the following front speakers with the SC-67 / SC-68.? Paradigm Srudio 100 v3
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post #1100 of 1854 Old 02-08-2013, 04:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kevin_Roy View Post

Will I be able to run the following front speakers with the SC-67 / SC-68.? Paradigm Srudio 100 v3

yes

Steve
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post #1101 of 1854 Old 02-08-2013, 05:36 AM
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What are the best suitable surround speakers for SC-67, B&W 683, HTM61?

I am considering the following:
- B&W DS3
- Mythos Gem

TIA
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post #1102 of 1854 Old 02-08-2013, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmofanv View Post

What are the best suitable surround speakers for SC-67, B&W 683, HTM61?

I am considering the following:
- B&W DS3
- Mythos Gem

TIA
I would match your fronts ,center and surrounds with the same mfg and model line.
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post #1103 of 1854 Old 02-08-2013, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gates View Post

What I meant is that since you've tested the SC-68 from both an external amp and directly through the internal amps, did you find a difference in sound quality for Home Theater use (highs, mid, panning, imaging, etc).

missed your question, I guess redface.gif

differences...not a lot & pretty subtle. certainly not with imaging, soundstage depth. when I first got the Ice amp'd SC-09, I did some a/b listening to the Innersound amp I have. surprisingly, I thought the bass was just a wee bit "better" with the amp over class D Ice amps, and the highs just a wee bit clearer with the class D amps. kind of opposite what most people expect comparing class D to class a/b amp. it's been going on 5 years now since I did that comparison. I decided to leave the amp for the fronts and let the SC-09 do the rest because I already owned it and it was quite a bit more powerful than even the "mighty" SC-09 wink.gif

any difference I heard back then was from max power & current ability. I have Magnepan speakers, not efficient, 4 ohm nominal, and they come alive the more power you feed them. it's almost like the proverbial lifting a veil, but in this case, not with clarity but with dynamics. going to 600 watts @ 4 ohms made percussive attacks, transients more noticeable, I could even tell a difference with piano notes (classical). hitting a piano key was sharper, more distinct and quicker with a 600 w amp.

all that said, I did do a comparison with percussive attacks in several tracks in Brothers In Arms with the SC-68 powering everything, incl my power-hungry fronts, & with my subs turned off. and it held its own, even turned up. but all this is very very subtle & not night & day differences that one can easily pickup on, unless you really listened intently. IMO, you would not hear a night & day difference between majority of amps & then your speakers would have to be demanding ones to drive wink.gif

the class D amps in the SC-68 get high praise from a number of sources for powerful dynamics & ability to reproduce transient peaks without strain, deliver nice bass and clarity. class D amps generally aren't considered the ultimate best for "air", or quite equal in reproducing the most intricate, innermost detail in the highs in certain music, according to some "audiophiles". I've read audiophile posts that claim class D amps can sound "dry" whatever that means wink.gif

but to my ears, I have no complaints with the clarity in both the Ice amp & the new design. I have same depth & imaging no matter which amp I have used...those qualities are the characteristics of the speaker design & the room they're in.

with class D amp designs, there is a gradual rise in distortion as freq rises past 10khz, but until the amp goes into clipping, it is still well below audibility, no different than most amps.

IMO, these class D amps are well suited for home theater sound smile.gif I've owned them for 5.5 years now & have been very pleased with the sound quality. I see no reason to think otherwise smile.gif

Steve
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post #1104 of 1854 Old 02-08-2013, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

missed your question, I guess redface.gif

differences...not a lot & pretty subtle. certainly not with imaging, soundstage depth. when I first got the Ice amp'd SC-09, I did some a/b listening to the Innersound amp I have. surprisingly, I thought the bass was just a wee bit "better" with the amp over class D Ice amps, and the highs just a wee bit clearer with the class D amps. kind of opposite what most people expect comparing class D to class a/b amp. it's been going on 5 years now since I did that comparison. I decided to leave the amp for the fronts and let the SC-09 do the rest because I already owned it and it was quite a bit more powerful than even the "mighty" SC-09 wink.gif

any difference I heard back then was from max power & current ability. I have Magnepan speakers, not efficient, 4 ohm nominal, and they come alive the more power you feed them. it's almost like the proverbial lifting a veil, but in this case, not with clarity but with dynamics. going to 600 watts @ 4 ohms made percussive attacks, transients more noticeable, I could even tell a difference with piano notes (classical). hitting a piano key was sharper, more distinct and quicker with a 600 w amp.

all that said, I did do a comparison with percussive attacks in several tracks in Brothers In Arms with the SC-68 powering everything, incl my power-hungry fronts, & with my subs turned off. and it held its own, even turned up. but all this is very very subtle & not night & day differences that one can easily pickup on, unless you really listened intently. IMO, you would not hear a night & day difference between majority of amps & then your speakers would have to be demanding ones to drive wink.gif

the class D amps in the SC-68 get high praise from a number of sources for powerful dynamics & ability to reproduce transient peaks without strain, deliver nice bass and clarity. class D amps generally aren't considered the ultimate best for "air", or quite equal in reproducing the most intricate, innermost detail in the highs in certain music, according to some "audiophiles". I've read audiophile posts that claim class D amps can sound "dry" whatever that means wink.gif

but to my ears, I have no complaints with the clarity in both the Ice amp & the new design. I have same depth & imaging no matter which amp I have used...those qualities are the characteristics of the speaker design & the room they're in.

with class D amp designs, there is a gradual rise in distortion as freq rises past 10khz, but until the amp goes into clipping, it is still well below audibility, no different than most amps.

IMO, these class D amps are well suited for home theater sound smile.gif I've owned them for 5.5 years now & have been very pleased with the sound quality. I see no reason to think otherwise smile.gif

Thank you for the response!
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post #1105 of 1854 Old 02-09-2013, 06:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gates View Post

Thank you for the response!

no problem...and I agree with your comment about being a little smoother. I forgot to mention that, but yes, I do think the new design is a bit smoother, or perhaps another way to describe it is a little less glare or grain on the top end. obviously hard to say if that's all due the new amp vs Ice amp or also different Air Studios "tuning". but the 68 sounded much like the class a/b amp smile.gif

Steve
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post #1106 of 1854 Old 02-09-2013, 08:14 AM
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“...but the 68 sounded much like the class a/b amp”

That right there ^^^ is what I’m hoping for.

It’s so hard to tell until you have it in your home—for a while.

I have had some bad luck lately with items purchased that did not turn out to be what I thought, either in quality or appearance. I have grown accustomed to sending items back, or taking them back.

But I don’t really want to go thru this with an amp/AVR receiver. Amps are too big, too heavy and a bigger disappointment. I had purchased a Emotiva XPA-5. Oh my gosh~~~Heavy as can be. But the sound was thin, and anything but emotional.

So, I’m hoping the sound of the SC-68 is both dynamic and still rich. Otherwise I may go the route of NAD (T-757/767/787--or Denon 4520 . Both brands promise high quality, but I’m bored with the esthetics of both also.

I’ll keep reading.

He who carries the HATE, carries the WEIGHT ~~~
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post #1107 of 1854 Old 02-09-2013, 12:47 PM
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Well, managed to sell my vsx82-tsx on good old Craigslist. SC65/67 coming up next!
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post #1108 of 1854 Old 02-09-2013, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00jmack View Post


I agree that DLNA and USB DAC are transport methods, but I think that once the data arrives,
the SC-68 may be smart enough to route the data to the appropriate DAC internally. This could
be the same DAC used by the USB interface.

I just played an "88" FLAC file (88.2kHz) streamed over ethernet via DLNA to the SC-68, and
the bitrate shown on the display is 8467 kbps (a pretty high bitrate :-)

Thanks for bringing this up. You are right and I verified that SC-68 indeed can play FLAC over DLNA at the original bit rate. I used to set my media server (jriver) to automatic convert unsupported format and I thought that's what I should do because FLAC is not a standard DLNA format. Now we know you just need to set it to never convert and it would play on SC-68. However, my SC-68 skips when playing high bit rate files because I am using wireless and I am sure it doesn't happen to you as you are using ethernet.

Yes, it is the DAC in SC-68 that's playing the audio. DLNA is sending digital data (flac, wav, pcm, mp3, etc) and has to be converted to audio by SC-68. There are multiple DAC inside SC-68 and ss9001 has a very good description in one of his posts about what they may be on this track.
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post #1109 of 1854 Old 02-09-2013, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soniky View Post

Thanks for bringing this up. You are right and I verified that SC-68 indeed can play FLAC over DLNA at the original bit rate. I used to set my media server (jriver) to automatic convert unsupported format and I thought that's what I should do because FLAC is not a standard DLNA format. Now we know you just need to set it to never convert and it would play on SC-68. However, my SC-68 skips when playing high bit rate files because I am using wireless and I am sure it doesn't happen to you as you are using ethernet.

Yes, it is the DAC in SC-68 that's playing the audio. DLNA is sending digital data (flac, wav, pcm, mp3, etc) and has to be converted to audio by SC-68. There are multiple DAC inside SC-68 and ss9001 has a very good description in one of his posts about what they may be on this track.

Yes with ethernet rather than wireless, it's solid as a rock with no skips. I have a small gigabit switch at the entertainment rack for the SC-68, the DVD/blu-ray players and the satellite receiver, which is then connected through the house ethernet to my gigabit router switch and computer. Much easier running cat6 than a long length of USB.

The SC-68 is only at 100Mbit, but it runs quite nicely now at that speed. One hope is that future SC's might have at least a gigabit interface, as compression technology will surely advance to higher and higher bit rates down the road.

(the SC-68's display however does take it's time to show the details on the screen when playing FLAC)
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post #1110 of 1854 Old 02-10-2013, 12:10 AM
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pardon me if my question is beyond the scope of the thread but is anyone aware of a AV Dealer in NYC who carries both Pioneer & NAD AVRs so i can do a direct comparison between the two.

Thanks,

Rana

a few funny stories from my life ------->http://www.kirtirana.blogspot.com
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