Official Pioneer SC-68/67 Thread - Page 52 - AVS Forum
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post #1531 of 1849 Old 07-08-2013, 03:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jarrod2750 View Post

I'm using the passive crossovers in the speakers. I do feel there is a difference with biamping I'm just trying to get a consensus on whether I'd be downgrading by using the amps in the 68 vs. the M 90's.

Hi Jarrod

first, derrick did give you some good advice about the "benefits" of passive bi-amping wink.gif

second, have you had the M90 re-capped since you bought it, assuming you are original owner? I don't know if I can give you a direct answer but that amp is gorgeous! it makes me nostalgic for older Elite gear...Pioneer sure did make some great stuff.

based on what I was able to google on its specs, it will be a more powerful & somewhat cleaner amp, probably class A/B but perhaps biased into class A for first few watts. its only 200 watts vs the 68's rating 140 which isn't a significant difference but look at what's behind the specs. M90's THD numbers: 0.003% at rated power. the class D amps Pioneer uses do have very low THD levels in the middle of their power curve, but as they approach their max power before clipping, the distortion on high freq's quickly rises. that is the nature of class D amp design. look at Pioneer's rated power for the class D amps: 140 watts but that's at 1kHz (not full 20-20Khz rating like your M90) and all channels rating is at 1Khz and 1% (clipping). the class D amps are awesome amps for home theater receivers, able to maintain their power for 5&7 channels but IMHO they are not going to beat (or match) your M90 for the cleanest power approaching clipping. this all assumes the M90's capacitors are still in great shape.

your decision also depends on how efficient your speakers are. Klipsch's usually are pretty efficient so usually wouldn't need that much power. so you probably could ditch the M90 & not miss anything. OTOH, if you had inefficient speakers like I do, I know I'd keep the M90. try it both ways. but I know I'd be seriously tempted to keep the M90 in the system just for its vintage appeal & looks cool.gif let's put it this way. if big majority of your use is movies not music, and eliminating 2 interconnects + power cord and freeing up a shelf space is important to you then I don't think you'd miss much with Klipsch. but the M90 will be the theoretically superior amp when pushed to high power peaks, if it doesn't need re-capped. whether that is audible or not, I can't say. but it sure would be nice to look at in a rack wink.gif

if you do decide to sell it, you might want to put it on AVSForum classified or Audiogon or let us know wink.gif

reminds me of Pioneer Elite's heydays.

Steve
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post #1532 of 1849 Old 07-08-2013, 04:04 AM
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Thanks for the feedback. I'm not the original owner and they haven't been recapped(although I've considered getting it done). Yes they do look great in the rack and are sort of a statement piece smile.gif. I do listen to quite a bit of music cranked really loud and that's why I went out and had gotten these amps which were originally paired with my Pioneer 94 receiver.

I've used other amps in the past and I've enjoyed these the most, and acquired the both of them over the past coupe of years. Originally I considered emotiva but wanted to keep an entire pioneer system and the vintage amps seemed to be the better option.
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post #1533 of 1849 Old 07-08-2013, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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^^
sounds like you answered yourself smile.gif

I have 1 Pioneer Elite piece with the rosewood panels, the last Elite laserdisc player they made & I may only watch 1-2 laserdiscs a yr, something not yet on DVD/BD or I haven't replaced, but the player stays just for its looks wink.gif

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post #1534 of 1849 Old 07-08-2013, 03:09 PM
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I guess I have! I have a soft spot for the older pioneer elite line. I still have a pd 65 CD player in my system which is a beast and although not an elite, my turntable is a pl 1000a - linear tracking.
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post #1535 of 1849 Old 07-08-2013, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarrod2750 View Post

I'm curious if anyone is using the 68 itself to biamp speakers? The reason I ask is that I currently have the 68 and are using two Pioneer Elite M 90s to biamp and power my Klipsch epic cf 3s. I'm trying to pare down my equipment, so my question is would I be losing much by using the 68 to biamp vs the two separate amps? The 68 powers everything else in my 9.2 system.

Regadless of if any biamp benefits exist or not, how can you biamp with 68 in a 9.2 configuration? You'd have to use front-height to bi-amp your fronts, which gives you 7.2 at most.
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post #1536 of 1849 Old 07-08-2013, 05:08 PM
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My plan would be to use a lessor amp to power my height speakers.
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post #1537 of 1849 Old 07-08-2013, 11:52 PM
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Jarrod, I have multiple amps that have and are being used with my SC 35. I also have some tube gear and the SC 35 SQ is on par with with my refurb. Yamaha M 80, M 70, Carver and tube amp. The SC 35 can swing 270 watts/ch with an 4 ohm load. I have used all of the amps with my Klipsch RF 7 system. I have tried horizontal and vertical bi-amping , bi-wiring and at this point my fronts are driven by the Yamaha M 80 and the RC 64 off the carver. just because I have them. I have never seen my RF 7 use more that 60-80 watts. The M 80 amp is 250 watts. I can reach ear bleeding level and never exceed those watt limits in a 6500 + cu ft. room.

My M 80 has those low distortion numbers but, you really can't hear it when speaker have 5% or much higher distortion. So , use the M 90, I like my gear and use all of it but, it is on the overkill side, lol. I can hear a little difference between my tube gear compared to the Yamaha or SC 35 alone but it is not better, just slightly different for 2 ch. listening. Even tube amps and SS don't sound radically different unless you approach clipping IMHO.

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post #1538 of 1849 Old 07-10-2013, 03:40 AM
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I appreciate your input. I too had a Yamaha m 80 a few years back and what a heavy amplifier. I guess I just like extreme overkill and rosewood panels smile.gif . Although my wife would be much happier to see less equipment!
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post #1539 of 1849 Old 07-12-2013, 02:41 PM
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Just picked up a Pioneer SC-68 about 2 weeks ago to add to my theater room. I replaced a Yamaha RX-V867, which I loved the sound of. I have a 5.1 speaker setup with Emotiva ERT-8.3 mains, an ERM-6.3 center, two ERD-1 surrounds and an Ultra 12 sub. Through the Yamaha these speakers had a rich sound with very smooth highs, and a rich midrange. With the pioneer my vinyl sounds a little sterile(harsh highs) and I feel the output power is lower. I tried passive biamping of the mains to increase the output but that resulted in a great amount of vocal sibilance and slight vocal distortion, so I went back to a "full range" type setup. I have run MCAAC as suggested elsewhere in this forum and have gotten a better sound, but I don't think the sound is as good as my Yamaha. My turntable is a Pro-ject Debut III with an Ortofon 2M Red cartridge. I have just replaced the stylus because I thought that may be the problem but my vinyl still doesn't sound like it did through the Yamaha. I really want to like this receiver so any help would be greatly appreciated.
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post #1540 of 1849 Old 07-12-2013, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrmantb View Post

Just picked up a Pioneer SC-68 about 2 weeks ago to add to my theater room. I replaced a Yamaha RX-V867, which I loved the sound of. I have a 5.1 speaker setup with Emotiva ERT-8.3 mains, an ERM-6.3 center, two ERD-1 surrounds and an Ultra 12 sub. Through the Yamaha these speakers had a rich sound with very smooth highs, and a rich midrange. With the pioneer my vinyl sounds a little sterile(harsh highs) and I feel the output power is lower. I tried passive biamping of the mains to increase the output but that resulted in a great amount of vocal sibilance and slight vocal distortion, so I went back to a "full range" type setup. I have run MCAAC as suggested elsewhere in this forum and have gotten a better sound, but I don't think the sound is as good as my Yamaha. My turntable is a Pro-ject Debut III with an Ortofon 2M Red cartridge. I have just replaced the stylus because I thought that may be the problem but my vinyl still doesn't sound like it did through the Yamaha. I really want to like this receiver so any help would be greatly appreciated.
As for power the 68 has more according to test bench it even has more than the model above yours from Yamaha if your are using the volume knob location as a guide that will not work from brand to brand but the 68 definitely has more power especially when the impedance dips down to 4 ohm.
You may just prefer the DAC's in the Yamaha over the Pioneer's or it could be an adjustment some peoples desciption of bright may not be the same as others I often hear the term a veil was lifted but the bottom line is you either like what you hear are not.
The flagship series from Pioneer got Air Studios approval and if you Google it there are some prominent sound engineers involved that I suspect would not want their reputation tarnished.
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post #1541 of 1849 Old 07-12-2013, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by gtrmantb View Post

With the pioneer my vinyl sounds a little sterile(harsh highs) and I feel the output power is lower.

You might find some of the statements in the following review of interest: Pioneer Elite SC-68 A/V Receiver Page 2

"Once in a while, the receiver’s top end bordered on antiseptic." "At first the SC-68 seemed to have both firmer bass and a cruder top end. But as I cruised to the Bremen concert encore, halfway through the set, some things had happened: The SC-68 and phono preamp warmed up and the top-end distinction diminished. By the time the Lausanne concert was under way—different recording, different hall, possibly different piano—the topend distinction diminished further, almost to the vanishing point, leaving the SC-68’s firmer bass as the one distinction of which I was absolutely certain. I could have spent weeks and weeks pursuing this."

I think this implies that the "sterile (harsh highs)" may diminish with break-in time.
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post #1542 of 1849 Old 07-13-2013, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtrmantb View Post

Just picked up a Pioneer SC-68 about 2 weeks ago to add to my theater room. I replaced a Yamaha RX-V867, which I loved the sound of. I have a 5.1 speaker setup with Emotiva ERT-8.3 mains, an ERM-6.3 center, two ERD-1 surrounds and an Ultra 12 sub. Through the Yamaha these speakers had a rich sound with very smooth highs, and a rich midrange. With the pioneer my vinyl sounds a little sterile(harsh highs) and I feel the output power is lower. I tried passive biamping of the mains to increase the output but that resulted in a great amount of vocal sibilance and slight vocal distortion, so I went back to a "full range" type setup. I have run MCAAC as suggested elsewhere in this forum and have gotten a better sound, but I don't think the sound is as good as my Yamaha. My turntable is a Pro-ject Debut III with an Ortofon 2M Red cartridge. I have just replaced the stylus because I thought that may be the problem but my vinyl still doesn't sound like it did through the Yamaha. I really want to like this receiver so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Did you run EQ pro with a 30-50 ms time interval and use the X curve feature? Sometime it takes a little time to get use to a new avr since we are accustom to the sound from the old one. Brightness is also a reflection of the room and some rugs or heavier curtains are needed.

Klipsch RF 7 based HT 7.4, Pioneer SC 35, Acurus 200 Five, Dayton 18 Ultimxa Dual Sub Cab(2), Dayton 18 Ultimax Large Vented Sub Cab (2), on Berhinger I Nuke DPS amps, Samsung BDP F 7500, Asus/My Book Live HPC 4 TB

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post #1543 of 1849 Old 07-18-2013, 10:02 AM
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I guess my Pioneer is going into the shop... My Denon DVD-3930 will not output any audio via HDMI... I connected it to my TV and the audio is fine... There is something definitely not kosher with the unit...

I found out the problem with the audio... The Denon 3930 has HDMI 1.1... Apparently HDMI 1.1 has issues with audio handshaking with 1.4 since audio handshaking was having issues until HDMI 1.3 spec.

I confirmed this by hooking up the Denon to a Denon AVR2808CI and had the exact same issues. My televisions have HDMI 1.3 and have no issues with the Denon DVD player when connected directly, only when going through the AVRs.

If it's not a BIG screen, it's not a theater...
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post #1544 of 1849 Old 07-18-2013, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

Did you run EQ pro with a 30-50 ms time interval and use the X curve feature? Sometime it takes a little time to get use to a new avr since we are accustom to the sound from the old one. Brightness is also a reflection of the room and some rugs or heavier curtains are needed.

Thanks for the replies. I did run eq pro with the 30-50 ms time interval and tried the x-curve feature. I felt the x-curve took out some of the definition. Maybe the unit is starting to break in or maybe I'm starting to get broken in smile.gif, because I feel its starting to sound better. My next step is to try and update my speaker system.
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post #1545 of 1849 Old 07-19-2013, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by gtrmantb View Post

Thanks for the replies. I did run eq pro with the 30-50 ms time interval and tried the x-curve feature. I felt the x-curve took out some of the definition. Maybe the unit is starting to break in or maybe I'm starting to get broken in smile.gif, because I feel its starting to sound better. My next step is to try and update my speaker system.

Great! I am glad to hear you are enjoying the sound.

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post #1546 of 1849 Old 07-25-2013, 09:56 PM
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I love my Elite SC-67 its exactly what I want and puts out good power but I'll never buy a Pioneer Elite product again. After a few months of owning this thing I discovered that the HDMI 1 out was dead. Pioneer said I had to have it warranty repaired, so I had to drive my receiver 2 hours from my house to get it to a shady repair center. Apparently they will absolutely under no circumstances warranty replace an item. After 4 weeks of my receiver being at Hi Tech Services in Nashville,TN I was told there was nothing wrong to drive up and pick it up. I drove the 2 hours up and before I left I asked them to double check that it was for sure working. Proved to be still dead. In fact they hadn't done anything to it. The tech got as far as plugging it in and got a signal from HDMI 2 and decided that was good enough. Once he realized it was in fact toast, the tech proceeded in front of me to remove a chip from another customer's used reciever board and solder it on to mine. When that didn't work he said he'd need to call Pioneer. They said it will be at least 4 more weeks to fix and another 5 hours to drive there and back. I called pioneer to tell them about what was going on and how poor the service has been on what is supposed to be their premium product. They told me that is all I get with the warranty and there was nothing they would do. Has anyone out there had a similar experience? Anything I can do to speed this along and to insure I'm getting a top quality product back and not a pile of junk parts that won't survive past it pathetic 2 year warranty? I'm insulted that a company wouldn't bend over backwards to help their customer. If epson can overnight a projector and replace a faulty unit to maintain good customer relations you would think Pioneer could do the same.mad.gif

Update: Pioneer has opened a case to call the repair shop, but continues to insist that the 2 year warranty is a repair warranty and that this is the best they can do. They said unfortunately I'd have to be patient because that takes 3-5 business days. Buyer be warned enjoy the product you have, the pioneer sound is epic, but if you ever get caught in the repair loop your mileage may very and you may be fighting to make it right.
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post #1547 of 1849 Old 07-25-2013, 10:55 PM
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Guys,
What's the difference in the manual speaker set up if I set the subwoofer to "YES" and "PLUS"?
Thanks smile.gif
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post #1548 of 1849 Old 07-26-2013, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by daedalusen View Post

I love my Elite SC-67 its exactly what I want and puts out good power but I'll never buy a Pioneer Elite product again. After a few months of owning this thing I discovered that the HDMI 1 out was dead. Pioneer said I had to have it warranty repaired, so I had to drive my receiver 2 hours from my house to get it to a shady repair center. Apparently they will absolutely under no circumstances warranty replace an item. After 4 weeks of my receiver being at Hi Tech Services in Nashville,TN I was told there was nothing wrong to drive up and pick it up. I drove the 2 hours up and before I left I asked them to double check it that it was for sure working. Guess what it was still dead. In fact they hadn't done anything to it. The tech got as far as plugging in and got a signal from HDMI 2 and decided that was good enough. Once he realized it was in fact toast, the tech proceeded in from of my to remove a chip from another customers used reciever board and solder it on to mine. Wine that didn't work he said he'd need to call Pioneer. They said it will be at least 4 more weeks to fix and another 5 hours to drive there and back. I called pioneer to tell them about what was going on and how poor the service has been on what is supposed to be their premium product. They told me that is all I get with the warranty and there was nothing they would do. Has anyone out there had a similar experience? Anything I can do to speed this along and to insure I'm getting a top quality product back and not a pile of junk parts that won't survive past it pathetic 2 year warranty? I'm insulted that a company wouldn't bend over backwards to help their customer. If epson can overnight a projector to keep me happy and have it handle then surely Pioneer can do the same.mad.gif
Most of our clients that don't buy from our company go to Best Buy and let them handle the warranty issues so far i have not heard any complaints.
Have you contacted the seller?
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post #1549 of 1849 Old 07-26-2013, 07:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Louie_18 View Post

Guys,
What's the difference in the manual speaker set up if I set the subwoofer to "YES" and "PLUS"?
Thanks smile.gif

have you read the explanation in the manual yet?
if you haven't then do that.

basically, Plus means sub is on all the time, whether or not its a 5.1 soundtrack or 2 ch stereo. Yes just means the sub is active when there is a .1 track or you use surround processing on a 2 ch source and the receiver's bass mgmt will shunt bass < crossover to the sub for all speakers set to Small.

Plus can result in worse bass response not better due to room standing waves, cancellations from having 2 sources of bass at same time (speakers set to Large & sub).

Steve
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post #1550 of 1849 Old 07-26-2013, 09:00 AM
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post #1551 of 1849 Old 07-26-2013, 09:02 AM
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To daedalusen (1546)
I agree that Pioneer sucks bad in this case. Its one thing to bring your SC-67 into a local shop if you live in a large city, but for rural customers like you they ought to automatically allow for sending it direct to the factory via UPS or other carrier. IT also sounds like they provide no quality control checks on their service provider, which is lousy. They ought to be telling you that they are disappointed about how the service center handled your repair and they will investigate it them, at the least. They need to at least show some curiosity about what might be wrong with a service center when a customer complains, rather than taking a defensive "this is just the way it is" position. It reminds me of the old Lily Tomlin routine "We can do anything we want, we're the phone company."
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post #1552 of 1849 Old 07-26-2013, 09:11 AM
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Usually an authorized seller will handle these issues for a customer especially flagship series still under warranty or at least this has been my experience.
Another reason for supporting your local Hi-Fi dealer.
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post #1553 of 1849 Old 07-26-2013, 12:39 PM
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To daedalusen (1546)
I agree that Pioneer sucks bad in this case. Its one thing to bring your SC-67 into a local shop if you live in a large city, but for rural customers like you they ought to automatically allow for sending it direct to the factory via UPS or other carrier. IT also sounds like they provide no quality control checks on their service provider, which is lousy. They ought to be telling you that they are disappointed about how the service center handled your repair and they will investigate it them, at the least. They need to at least show some curiosity about what might be wrong with a service center when a customer complains, rather than taking a defensive "this is just the way it is" position. It reminds me of the old Lily Tomlin routine "We can do anything we want, we're the phone company."

I found out today that the service center carries a terrible reputation, but in my situation driving 3 hours was out of the question. I would hope that Pioneer would have some QC if they are going to use third party to handle repairs, but apparently they have left it to chance. It sad really because they make nice products, unfortunately customer service is a lot of what you buy with a device and I've learned my lesson. It's funny that companies like this are scratching their heads trying to figure out where their market share is going
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post #1554 of 1849 Old 07-26-2013, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by oztech View Post

Usually an authorized seller will handle these issues for a customer especially flagship series still under warranty or at least this has been my experience.
Another reason for supporting your local Hi-Fi dealer.

I agree completely and would have handled it through my dealer if possible, but I moved for a job after the purchase and there wasn't much they could do for me from California being across the country other than helping me make sure it got warranty repaired.
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post #1555 of 1849 Old 07-26-2013, 01:35 PM
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Hello All,

Considering a Refurb SC-67 from Pioneer for $960. Anyone have any good advice. 3 Month warranty.

Thanks
MIke
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post #1556 of 1849 Old 07-26-2013, 02:34 PM
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Yup, like many companies, it seems Pioneer spends a lot on marketing, on advertisements and on setting up displays in AV stores, but what really counts in the end is customer service. IF there is no follow through they loose a customer for life. That's what happened to Nakamichi, if you remember them (if I'm even spelling their name correctly).
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To MRJ0309

A three month warranty doesn't sound like very long to me. Check out the comments from daedalusen (1546) above about warranty service.
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post #1558 of 1849 Old 07-26-2013, 02:39 PM
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Hello All,

Considering a Refurb SC-67 from Pioneer for $960. Anyone have any good advice. 3 Month warranty.

Thanks
MIke

FYI, the newer top two models of the Pioneer uses the ESS Sabre DACs... They should be a step up from the current (Burr Brown?) DACs...

If it's not a BIG screen, it's not a theater...
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post #1559 of 1849 Old 07-26-2013, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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...the current (Burr Brown?) DACs...

actually Asahi Kasei (AK4480's) wink.gif

Steve
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post #1560 of 1849 Old 07-26-2013, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello All,

Considering a Refurb SC-67 from Pioneer for $960. Anyone have any good advice. 3 Month warranty.

Thanks
MIke

3 months from a dealer/reseller is pretty skimpy. accessories4less sells refurb Denon with 1 yr.
is this Best Buy-Magnolia by chance? if so, I'd be very cautious if the make you use Geek Squad for warranty service.

all I can say is I personally wouldn't buy it with only 90 days, especially if this is an online reseller, not a brick & mortar auth dealer. but that's me. you could try negotiating for better terms...

or save up for one of the new models smile.gif

it's a dice roll. you'd most likely be OK but if it did go south @ day 91, you're screwed. not worth the savings, IMHO. if they gave you 1 yr for sure, maybe even 6 months, different story & good deal.
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