Official Pioneer SC-68/67 Thread - Page 55 - AVS Forum
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post #1621 of 1854 Old 08-14-2013, 06:16 AM
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Purchased an Open box SC-65 from BB....$875 + 6% PA tax. Have it hooked up and im lovin it. What a difference from my Onkyo 605. Much nicer picture on my 70in Sharpe Elite too !!!. Listened to
the Eagles live in Australia on Blu-Ray....all i can say is WOW!!!! This thing is amazing. Even at high levels, such a rich full sound. My Infinity Beta's never sounded this good. Extremely happy, just hope
i don't run into any problems. Dont know why it was an open box though. Hope you made out ok with your issue. Did you get a refurb?. One thing......have a Pioneer Turntable hooked up using rca
to the CD input. I get no audio at all. Same thing when i was using my Onkyo 605. Not sure of the model turntable. Anyone have a ideas. ?

Thanks
Mike
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post #1622 of 1854 Old 08-14-2013, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJR0309 View Post

Purchased an Open box SC-65 from BB....$875 + 6% PA tax. Have it hooked up and im lovin it. What a difference from my Onkyo 605. Much nicer picture on my 70in Sharpe Elite too !!!. Listened to
the Eagles live in Australia on Blu-Ray....all i can say is WOW!!!! This thing is amazing. Even at high levels, such a rich full sound. My Infinity Beta's never sounded this good. Extremely happy, just hope
i don't run into any problems. Dont know why it was an open box though. Hope you made out ok with your issue. Did you get a refurb?. One thing......have a Pioneer Turntable hooked up using rca
to the CD input. I get no audio at all. Same thing when i was using my Onkyo 605. Not sure of the model turntable. Anyone have a ideas. ?

Thanks
Mike

Hi there. In order to get sound form your turnable you should have put the rca cables in a dedicated phono input & of course ground.
If you don't have phono input in your SC 65 , you must buy a phono amp. Connect the turnable in the phono amp , and the output of the phono amp to your SC 65 in the CD input.Then you can rename it phono or whatever you like.
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post #1623 of 1854 Old 08-14-2013, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJR0309 View Post

One thing......have a Pioneer Turntable hooked up using rca
to the CD input. I get no audio at all. Same thing when i was using my Onkyo 605. Anyone have a ideas.?

Mike, yes I do have an answer for you but you won't like it.

You cannot use a line level input (CD, DVD, DVR, etc) for turntables, period, end of story.

You need a dedicated phono input or a phono preamp input. The SC-65 doesn't have one so can't be directly used with any turntable, it doesn't matter who makes the turntable.

the reason is -

turntable cartridges produce signal levels in the millivolt range not volts range like a CD player. the phono input will provide the extra boost needed to get that level up to line level. or use an external phono preamp. and just as important, a phono input will provide the mandatory RIAA equalization for record playback. the normal CD inputs will not. so even if you could hear sound, it would sound like crap, distorted with no bass and no highs. RIAA equalization is a standard & part of record recording since the early 1950's smile.gif the bass/treble is significantly rolled off in the mastering process so the stylus can track LP grooves and then the signal has the inverse EQ applied by a phono preamp to make it sound like it should. no other input but a dedicated phono input will have the RIAA equalization.

if you used the CD input on the Onkyo, that's why you couldn't hear anything from it either.

what you'll need to get is a phono preamp. plug the TT into it and plug its outputs to the CD input on the SC-65. you can spend ~$50 up to multi-thousands $ on one. if all you want is occasionally being able to play an LP, then shop for a budget one.

sites like Music Direct, Elusive Disc, Acoustic Sounds, and others sell phono preamps plus you can find them in B&M audio/video dealers, especially those that cater to 2 channel stereo & "audiophiles". you might also check ebay. there are some nice simple ones from companies like NAD in the $100-150 range.

your other option is to return the SC-65 and find a deal on the SC-67. the SC-67 has the phono input.

there may be other "problems" with your old Pioneer turntable but for sure, using a CD type input is a deal breaker for record playing wink.gif

Steve
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post #1624 of 1854 Old 08-14-2013, 08:16 AM
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Guys, what audio processing should I choose in playing music so my subwoofers will also play together with my Front Left and Right? Tried Extended Stereo but all other channels are playing. For Direct mode only my Fronts L/R are playing... Thanks alot smile.gif

Btw Im using SC-LX86 which is basically the same sa SC-68
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post #1625 of 1854 Old 08-14-2013, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louie_18 View Post

Guys, what audio processing should I choose in playing music so my subwoofers will also play together with my Front Left and Right? Tried Extended Stereo but all other channels are playing. For Direct mode only my Fronts L/R are playing... Thanks alot smile.gif

Btw Im using SC-LX86 which is basically the same sa SC-68

I believe what you need to do is set all your speakers to SMALL, otherwise only LFE content will be sent to your subwoofers. You should then use Auto MCACC with the ALL (Keep SP System) option.

See the "Speaker Setting" section of the owner's manual on page 98 (Chapter 12) for more details.
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post #1626 of 1854 Old 08-14-2013, 09:52 AM
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Soniky,

In response to your question I want to have a bit perfect system, so I purchased the SC-68. I perceived a substantial difference in the two outputs. Of course I wanted to test the theory that there is a difference between WASAPI/HDMI and ASIO/USB output. USB-DAC always seems to have greater clarity, imaging(especially), and tighter bass. I did a careful MCACC calibration and then ran a series of sweep tests with REW and a calibrated mic. I don't want to go through the exercise of capturing and posting the SPL graphics, but what I found was that the USB output was much flatter. The HDMI output had peak and valley swings of up to 10db. I did the tests using Direct output, no other processing. I am guessing that the HDMI signal, as processed by the SC-68, gets some processing.

I am very satisfied with the USB-DAC output and will continue to use it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, if I perceive a difference then there is. As always the source material has to be top level. Maybe I am the victim of marketing or audiophile hype, but I have the confidence that the bit perfect stream is in place.

Your thoughts?
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post #1627 of 1854 Old 08-14-2013, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JoeBoxster View Post

I am very satisfied with the USB-DAC output and will continue to use it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, if I perceive a difference then there is. As always the source material has to be top level. Maybe I am the victim of marketing or audiophile hype, but I have the confidence that the bit perfect stream is in place.

I think what you perceive is real and not just marketing but that's an opinion wink.gif soniky can chime in on his thoughts, too.

your results comparing "jitterless" USB vs HDMI, are not surprising to me. if you were using a Pio player with PQLS, HDMI will have excellent jitter control, too, probably < 50 picoseconds. but otherwise, with the audio being clocked by a video signal, it's much more susceptible to jitter & phase shift errors in the transmission, especially if PCM. where jitter becomes audible is a subject of debate for years wink.gif but it has to have some effect or thousands of companies would not have invested the R&D money, engineering on clocking technology to reduce it smile.gif

thanks for reporting some real results. everyone benefits from people doing that.

Steve
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post #1628 of 1854 Old 08-14-2013, 12:08 PM
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Assuming a network cable is in place, could anybody tell me if this receiver can/should stream Airplay to Zone 2/3? I understand that the unit requires analogue connectivity from external source components to the AVR for zone playback, but this doesnt apply to AirPlay too does it?
Curious as Im trying to help a friend who lives in a remote part of Australia. They have a LX56, which is an equivalent non-US model.

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post #1629 of 1854 Old 08-14-2013, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
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^^
yes, I think it should work. when Airplay is used, it automatically activates the Media Server input on the receiver and according to the manual, Media Server is one of the inputs that can be used in zone 2/3. the only restriction is that you can't select one of the network sources in zone 2 and another source in main zone, unlike the analog inputs. both zones have to be playing the same network input. you still have to use the remote or front panel buttons to turn on zone 2 and select its input, but Airplay will itself will turn on the receiver as long as the receiver is setup for Network Standby On.

I've used Airplay but only in the main room not zone 2 so can't give you 100% personal assurance but the manual says Media Server input can be sent to zone 2/3.
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post #1630 of 1854 Old 08-14-2013, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeBoxster View Post

Soniky,

Your thoughts?

I have read many discussions regarding Async USB vs. SPDIF vs HDMI as digital transports for audio and very quickly I found that I don't understand much. I tend to believe in general that aync USB is jitter free, SPDIF can be jitter free if implemented that way, and HDMI has jitters by design. Don't know if that's correct or not but it doesn't matter. What matters is what do you hear from your set up as you said.
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post #1631 of 1854 Old 08-16-2013, 11:22 AM
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I have read many discussions regarding Async USB vs. SPDIF vs HDMI as digital transports for audio and very quickly I found that I don't understand much. I tend to believe in general that aync USB is jitter free, SPDIF can be jitter free if implemented that way, and HDMI has jitters by design. Don't know if that's correct or not but it doesn't matter. What matters is what do you hear from your set up as you said.

Hi Soniky,

As I understand it, any data managed by a PCI(-e) bus card will have some inherent jitter caused by the CPU and bus management circuits managing the sound and video card operations, inputs, and outputs. Event driven WASAPI over HDMI probably comes closest to minimal jitter external data delivery. This bypasses the Windows Mixer so you get high bit rate and frequency through HDMI, but your receiver must have the capability to decode the HDMI signal. The SC-67/68 has that capability; however, the video card is still on the PCI bus.

HDMI and SPDIF use a one-directional signal that multiplexes both a data and a clock signal onto one signal path. This requires the receiving end to correctly separate the signals. This is what leads to the most dreaded word in digital audio- Jitter. The other problem with a uni-directional signal flow is that you get clocking errors because the clocks that are being used on both ends of the signal don't sync up 100% of the time. Wasapi exclusive helps by using a pull protocol eliminating the two clock problem. USB on the other hand, is a Bi-directional connection and therefore has no need for synching clocks: it essentially syncs itself! While there is intrinsic jitter associated with any DAC system, this type of jitter has decreased significantly with modern USB controllers. End result: very low jitter, and no clocking errors.

So, by eliminating the two most serious sources of jitter, Windows mixer and PCI bus we get very close to bit perfect data transfer from disc data to onboard DAC.

That's the best I can put it.
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post #1632 of 1854 Old 08-16-2013, 07:04 PM
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1/ Will these receivers stream DSD..including multichannel DSD via UPnP?

(I know they handle it via the front USB, but what about via UPnP?)

2/ Will they also handle multichannel PCM via UPnP?

3/ Will they do this via UPnP GAPLESS?

Cheers smile.gif
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post #1633 of 1854 Old 08-17-2013, 11:30 AM
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SS9001 & Blind Guardian

Thanks for the detailed response, rally appreciate that. smile.gifsmile.gif I will get a Pre-Amp and hopefully get to enjoy all my old Vinyl again. I will keep u posted.

Thanks
Mike
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post #1634 of 1854 Old 08-17-2013, 02:49 PM
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Hi guys; finally updating system to a sc-68 from an sc-05. Question I have-- the online manual I'm reading doesn't seem to show how hook up the GUI to show on your display screen; do I use the Hdmi No. 1 out (the same one I would use for my display) or another output? I had to use s'video cable if I remember correctly to the monitor out on the old sc-05 but not sure if it's the same on the sc-68. Thanks Michael
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post #1635 of 1854 Old 08-18-2013, 06:18 AM - Thread Starter
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^^
no need for analog video anymore, SM. just plug in HDMI, OSD/GUI will be there. I don't use HDMI 2 but I believe it'll work on both, since both are mirrored and both active as the default. So plug into HDMI 1 and you are set smile.gif

Steve
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post #1636 of 1854 Old 08-18-2013, 07:22 AM
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So. Folks since you are the experts what is the difference between the sc67 and sc77? I can't seem to find a comparison.
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post #1637 of 1854 Old 08-18-2013, 07:38 AM
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The SC-77 has one more HDMI input 9 vs 8 it is THX Ultra 2 instead of Select 2 and I believe the 75/77/79 were the only models in the Elite line to get ESS Sabre 32 DAC's.
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post #1638 of 1854 Old 08-18-2013, 07:55 AM
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Doesn't sound like a huge difference.. Sounds like I should have found a close out 68. Guess I still could.
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post #1639 of 1854 Old 08-18-2013, 07:58 AM
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I think you made the right choice and enjoy it since they will always make improvements with each model from each line one can never stay ahead of the curve you just don't want to fall to far behind it.
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post #1640 of 1854 Old 08-18-2013, 02:25 PM
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Thanks ss9001, that was very helpful to me. Michael
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post #1641 of 1854 Old 08-19-2013, 10:17 PM
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I have an SC-77, but since there are very few 77s out there, and the 67 is rather similar I'm hoping someone here can help me with this.

I'm having a couple of issues with playing bitstreams from my Oppo BDP-103, and I'm not sure if the Oppo or the Pioneer is at fault. First, I'm getting different audio levels between LPCM output and Bitstream output by 4 dB, which matches the DIAL NORM +4 indication I'm getting on the SC-77's display. Bitstream (Dolby TrueHD, and DTS-HD Master) reads 4 dB higher on a SPL meter than they do if the Oppo is set to output LPCM over HDMI. I'm uncertain if the DIAL NORM +4 indicates that the dialog normalization metadata is 4dB above reference, or that it is increasing the volume by 4db to bring it to reference. I can find absolutely NOTHING in the operator's manual for the SC-77 regarding dialog normalization.

Secondly, on some Dolby TrueHD programs I'm getting static, pops or dropouts when delivered by bitstream to the SC-77. This is not occurring with DTS-HD Master, or if I set the Oppo to convert the Dolby TrueHD to LPCM. I have eliminated the HDMI cable as a possible culprit, but I'm not certain whether to blame the Oppo or the Pioneer.

Any thoughts on these items would be appreciated. Does anyone know of any documentation regarding the implementation of Dialog Normalization on the Pioneers that I'm missing, anyway to view the Dialog Normalization data other than the momentary indication on the display at the start of play, or any available settings regarding it?
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post #1642 of 1854 Old 08-20-2013, 04:20 AM - Thread Starter
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^^
Dial Norm:
no settings for it, nothing you can do with it or to it on any Pioneer receiver. apparently at least one hi-end processor, Meredian, let the user turn it off but that would be the only one I know of. see another post I just did for several links I found.

Steve
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post #1643 of 1854 Old 08-20-2013, 04:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Dialog Norm

I found this description in the manual for the Anthem D2V prepro:

"Dialog Normalization:
Dolby Digital program material contains non-audio data which the processor uses to adjust playback level, when necessary, so volume variations between movies and programs are eliminated. Without Dialog Normalization, movies not encoded at standardardized levels for the dialog could lose dynamic range - higher levels can result in distorted peaks, lower levels can result in quiet sounds disappearing into the noise floor. Dialog Normalization also ensures that Dynamics control works as intended.

If the display reads "Dial Norm Offset -4.0 dB" at the start of a movie, it is indicating that the recorded level is higher than the standard by 4.0 dB - the playback of all channels is then automatically reduced by 4 dB."

(bold is my emphasis added)

so instead of causing a volume "problem", it helps maintain the proper volume balance to meet Dolby's standards. you wouldn't want to defeat it wink.gif
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post #1644 of 1854 Old 08-21-2013, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post

I have an SC-77, but since there are very few 77s out there, and the 67 is rather similar I'm hoping someone here can help me with this.

I'm having a couple of issues with playing bitstreams from my Oppo BDP-103, and I'm not sure if the Oppo or the Pioneer is at fault. First, I'm getting different audio levels between LPCM output and Bitstream output by 4 dB, which matches the DIAL NORM +4 indication I'm getting on the SC-77's display. Bitstream (Dolby TrueHD, and DTS-HD Master) reads 4 dB higher on a SPL meter than they do if the Oppo is set to output LPCM over HDMI. I'm uncertain if the DIAL NORM +4 indicates that the dialog normalization metadata is 4dB above reference, or that it is increasing the volume by 4db to bring it to reference. I can find absolutely NOTHING in the operator's manual for the SC-77 regarding dialog normalization.

Secondly, on some Dolby TrueHD programs I'm getting static, pops or dropouts when delivered by bitstream to the SC-77. This is not occurring with DTS-HD Master, or if I set the Oppo to convert the Dolby TrueHD to LPCM. I have eliminated the HDMI cable as a possible culprit, but I'm not certain whether to blame the Oppo or the Pioneer.

Any thoughts on these items would be appreciated. Does anyone know of any documentation regarding the implementation of Dialog Normalization on the Pioneers that I'm missing, anyway to view the Dialog Normalization data other than the momentary indication on the display at the start of play, or any available settings regarding it?

I'd blame the Pioneer. Love the receiver but I've had problems with handshaking ever since I got it, especially with 3D. At first I thought my Oppo was flaking out on me, but after trying a whole bunch of stuff, it seems like it's the handshaking. I couldn't play 3D titles anymore because it always said I didn't have the proper equipment, but as soon as I put the option in the Oppo to "forced" instead of "auto" for 3D, it works everytime. This problem only started when adding the SC-68. Was working perfectly before.
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post #1645 of 1854 Old 08-21-2013, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gates View Post

I'd blame the Pioneer. Love the receiver but I've had problems with handshaking ever since I got it, especially with 3D. At first I thought my Oppo was flaking out on me, but after trying a whole bunch of stuff, it seems like it's the handshaking. I couldn't play 3D titles anymore because it always said I didn't have the proper equipment, but as soon as I put the option in the Oppo to "forced" instead of "auto" for 3D, it works everytime. This problem only started when adding the SC-68. Was working perfectly before.

Handshaking problems, especially with 3D and "automatic" settings are, to the best of my knowledge, not unique to the Pioneer or even to AVRs. The issues I'm experiencing may very well be the caused by the Pioneer. I believe I should consider that the difficulty of getting and maintaining a solid lock on the Dolby TrueHD bitstream could either be the decoder in the Pioneer, or some noise or error in the bitstream that the Pioneer is receiving. DTS-HD MA and LPCM are rock solid.

I found a reference to Dialog Normalization in an operator's manual for an older European model that sounds like it's suggesting that the receiver only uses the dialnorm metadata to create a DIAL NORM OFFSET message, leaving it up to the user to actually make the offset by adjusting the volume if they choose to. I'm not sure if Dolby licensing requires the decoder to automatically apply Dialog Normalization or not. I only know that they require the metadata to be included in the encoding process. I have submitted the question to Pioneer customer support, and I'm waiting for a reply.
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post #1646 of 1854 Old 08-21-2013, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gates View Post

I'd blame the Pioneer. Love the receiver but I've had problems with handshaking ever since I got it, especially with 3D. At first I thought my Oppo was flaking out on me, but after trying a whole bunch of stuff, it seems like it's the handshaking. I couldn't play 3D titles anymore because it always said I didn't have the proper equipment, but as soon as I put the option in the Oppo to "forced" instead of "auto" for 3D, it works everytime. This problem only started when adding the SC-68. Was working perfectly before.

I have the Pioneer SC-67... I also noticed that the handshaking speed is abysmal... I have the Oppo BDP-83SE and the BDP-95 along with a Pioneer BDP-09FD. It takes several seconds for the image to appear after the audio is heard. I used to have an Onkyo TX-NR906 receiver. The image and audio appeared a lot quicker than what the Pioneer does.

If it's not a BIG screen, it's not a theater...
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post #1647 of 1854 Old 08-21-2013, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post

Handshaking problems, especially with 3D and "automatic" settings are, to the best of my knowledge, not unique to the Pioneer or even to AVRs. The issues I'm experiencing may very well be the caused by the Pioneer. I believe I should consider that the difficulty of getting and maintaining a solid lock on the Dolby TrueHD bitstream could either be the decoder in the Pioneer, or some noise or error in the bitstream that the Pioneer is receiving. DTS-HD MA and LPCM are rock solid.

I found a reference to Dialog Normalization in an operator's manual for an older European model that sounds like it's suggesting that the receiver only uses the dialnorm metadata to create a DIAL NORM OFFSET message, leaving it up to the user to actually make the offset by adjusting the volume if they choose to. I'm not sure if Dolby licensing requires the decoder to automatically apply Dialog Normalization or not. I only know that they require the metadata to be included in the encoding process. I have submitted the question to Pioneer customer support, and I'm waiting for a reply.

Possibly, but I've never had issues with other AVR's.
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post #1648 of 1854 Old 08-21-2013, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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^^
just curious, did you ever try going into the SC-68's Video Parameters and turning the processor off for the HDMI input your Oppo was connected to? that would have taken the video processor out of the signal path and possibly could help. with the Qdeo chip in the Oppo and whatever processor is in your TV, having the Pioneer's video processor in the loop is redundant anyway, same chip as in the Oppo plus adding some signal latency. if you tried that and didn't help, well...it was a thought smile.gif

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post #1649 of 1854 Old 08-21-2013, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

^^
just curious, did you ever try going into the SC-68's Video Parameters and turning the processor off for the HDMI input your Oppo was connected to? that would have taken the video processor out of the signal path and possibly could help. with the Qdeo chip in the Oppo and whatever processor is in your TV, having the Pioneer's video processor in the loop is redundant anyway, same chip as in the Oppo plus adding some signal latency. if you tried that and didn't help, well...it was a thought smile.gif

I'll have to check the parameter again, but I had turned it off. I'll report back later after work smile.gif
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post #1650 of 1854 Old 08-21-2013, 02:01 PM
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I did that on my SC-67.. It hardly made a difference...

If it's not a BIG screen, it's not a theater...
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Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

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Pioneer , Pioneer Elite Sc 67 9 2 Channel Thx Select 2 Plus A V Receiver , Pioneer Elite Sc 68 9 2 Channel Thx Ultra 2 Plus A V Receiver , Receivers Amplifiers

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