OUTLAW 975 - Page 11 - AVS Forum
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post #301 of 508 Old 01-14-2013, 10:25 PM
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Just for the record, I wasn't slamming the 975, I understand the thinking. I'm still leaning towards it. I guess what I was really doing is asking if there is any kind of work around...maybe I need a new sacd player smile.gif

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post #302 of 508 Old 01-15-2013, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

Bill,

I get what you're saying, but when you start adding small things one by one you end up adding to the cost significantly. Just by adding 7.1 inputs would probably required the unit to have a larger footprint to accommodate the extra inputs, which would then add to the cost and before you know it you're above the $800 level. For the target audience of this piece I would be willing to be that the majority of them are going to use HDMI for their equipment with only the occasional analog audio input.

Dave,

I agree. But if a majority of prespective 975 buyers will be using HDMI then why offer legacy video inputs? All those legacy video inputs (2 Component Video Inputs, 2 Composite and 2 S-Video Inputs) take up a lot of rear panel space as well. I feel offering a 7.1 analog input would have been far more beneficial than having the legacy video inputs IMO.

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post #303 of 508 Old 01-15-2013, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Dave,

I realize the cost issue but including a 7.1 analog input would not have cost much more to add IMO. The other factor is with the 975 offering legacy video inputs one would think the same would apply for a 7.1 analog input.

Bill

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

Bill,

I get what you're saying, but when you start adding small things one by one you end up adding to the cost significantly. Just by adding 7.1 inputs would probably required the unit to have a larger footprint to accommodate the extra inputs, which would then add to the cost and before you know it you're above the $800 level. For the target audience of this piece I would be willing to be that the majority of them are going to use HDMI for their equipment with only the occasional analog audio input.

I prefer Emotiva's feature set, HDMI Switching No VP, high-quality analog 7.1 over legacy support.
There is so much duplication in AVP's these days, I would just assume they leave them out. cause no hard, and concentrate on audio.

Perhaps Outlaw will re-evaluate.
I am not sure Emotiva will release a higher end product any time soon...

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post #304 of 508 Old 01-15-2013, 08:18 AM
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The problem for me choosing between Outlaw and Emotiva is their past history. If I buy the 975 and its a lemon,,,well, **** happens and I'd chalk it up to experience and move on. If I had problems with the UMC-200 I'm afraid I'm going to be thinking "I should have known better". Probably not entirely fair to Emotiva but thats what my gut tells me.

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post #305 of 508 Old 01-15-2013, 08:19 AM
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for someone like me, who does not use sacd, nor have anything with 7.1 analog at all, the outlaw looks pretty good. I only have one HDMI device, and I do need two composite video. I use ps2, and my DVD player has composite. I also use two coax audio, and three analog audio RCA, soon to be 4. The only thing I want surround for is TV and movies. It will probly be more than a year before I get a ps3 or xbox, if at all, but I will always use phono and tape. I still just wish this thing had phono! what I don't understand is why leave that out when the whole idea was legacy support and no fancy app and internet crap. I do have a phono preamp, but I would rather get rid of it.

the options for this setup get increasingly spare. I can use the emotiva stereo pre/pro but sacrifice video and surround processing, or I can spend a boatload on a receiver where most of the r and d went toward apps like pandora or netflix. Increasingly it seems like I will have to run two systems. One for TV/movies and one for audio.
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post #306 of 508 Old 01-15-2013, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by 3rdHerd View Post

the options for this setup get increasingly spare. I can use the emotiva stereo pre/pro but sacrifice video and surround processing, or I can spend a boatload on a receiver where most of the r and d went toward apps like pandora or netflix. Increasingly it seems like I will have to run two systems. One for TV/movies and one for audio.

Or you could go with a mid-level AR and a preamp with HT Bypass like the Parasound 2100 or the Emotiva USP-1. This way you have the best of both worlds for TV/HT and music smile.gif.

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post #307 of 508 Old 01-15-2013, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by 3rdHerd View Post

It will probly be more than a year before I get a ps3 or xbox, if at all, but I will always use phono and tape. I still just wish this thing had phono! what I don't understand is why leave that out when the whole idea was legacy support and no fancy app and internet crap. I do have a phono preamp, but I would rather get rid of it.
My guess would be that Outlaw recognizes that most people looking for convenient daily music playback have long since moved from phono to CD and now media servers of some sort. Those remaining phonophiles are steadfast in the "vinyl" affectations and are thus quite particular about the turntable, cartridge, preamp, and downstream signal path (all analog, for example).

The 975 has no direct analog path, and to include a phono stage that would attempt to satisfy vinyl enthusiasts would probably be disproportionately costly relative to the rest of the 975 build, all for a small minority of 975 owners. It was just not good bang for buck.

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post #308 of 508 Old 01-15-2013, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Dan Laufman (President Emotiva) claims that "the 975 DOES NOT allow for bass management and delay management with all high resolution codecs". Is that true?

Source: http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=preamps&thread=28059&post=478124

You should post your question over at the Outlaw forums.

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post #309 of 508 Old 01-15-2013, 03:33 PM
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You should post your question over at the Outlaw forums.

Or here smile.gif

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post #310 of 508 Old 01-15-2013, 05:57 PM
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Or here smile.gif

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Well it was redundant here. See above.
Better from the horses mouth, no? wink.gif

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post #311 of 508 Old 01-15-2013, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Dave,

I agree. But if a majority of prespective 975 buyers will be using HDMI then why offer legacy video inputs? All those legacy video inputs (2 Component Video Inputs, 2 Composite and 2 S-Video Inputs) take up a lot of rear panel space as well. I feel offering a 7.1 analog input would have been far more beneficial than having the legacy video inputs IMO.

Bill

Exactly! NTSC video switching on a product with high-end 2 channel sound and loss less audio in 2012/13??? The whole FM tuner could have been removed as well. Those looking for SACD playback, the 975 will decode multichannel PCM if your transport converts the SACD DSD to PCM before the HDMI transmitter chip. How this compares to DSD is certainly up for debate.

Yes, it would be great to ask questions on the Outlaw site as well. Outlaw doesn't seem to check their inbox for new forum subscribers. I gave up after the second attempt with no response. cool.gif

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post #312 of 508 Old 01-16-2013, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

You should post your question over at the Outlaw forums.

Rex Kramer, Danger Seeker? Asking about a design flaw in a forum that was set up for marketing purposes, with all the brand fanboys hanging out there? We all know how that ended when I did that at the Emotiva marketing forum.

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post #313 of 508 Old 01-16-2013, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Audiophil View Post

Exactly! NTSC video switching on a product with high-end 2 channel sound and loss less audio in 2012/13??? The whole FM tuner could have been removed as well. Those looking for SACD playback, the 975 will decode multichannel PCM if your transport converts the SACD DSD to PCM before the HDMI transmitter chip. How this compares to DSD is certainly up for debate.

Yes, it would be great to ask questions on the Outlaw site as well. Outlaw doesn't seem to check their inbox for new forum subscribers. I gave up after the second attempt with no response. cool.gif

The question is does the 975 at $549 have high-end two channel sound. As Roger pointed out in post #307 the 975 doesn't have a direct analog signal path. So without that I would question whether the two channel performance of the 975 is really high-end.

Bill

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post #314 of 508 Old 01-16-2013, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

The question is does the 975 at $549 have high-end two channel sound. As Roger pointed out in post #307 the 975 doesn't have a direct analog signal path. So without that I would question whether the two channel performance of the 975 is really high-end.
If all one's sources are digital, does the lack of analog passthrough degrade the quality? I always wonder why people change their main/sub setups depending on the number of channels in the source. I like good bass all the time. wink.gif
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post #315 of 508 Old 01-16-2013, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

If all one's sources are digital, does the lack of analog passthrough degrade the quality?

Good question smile.gif. I was just thinking of those that would be using the analog outputs of their source to the 975. In that case I would think an analog pass through would be beneficial. But maybe I'm incorrect in that thought.

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post #316 of 508 Old 01-16-2013, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Good question smile.gif. I was just thinking of those that would be using the analog outputs of their source to the 975. In that case I would think an analog pass through would be beneficial. But maybe I'm incorrect in that thought.

Bill
That's why I ponder about shedding the subwoofers for analog sources. I don't understand the logic. "Better fidelity" with worse bass quality? confused.gif

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post #317 of 508 Old 01-16-2013, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

That's why I ponder about shedding the subwoofers for analog sources. I don't understand the logic. "Better fidelity" with worse bass quality? confused.gif

That depends on your speakres and your sub.
If you speakers are full range and the players A/D is much better say from an Oppo BDP-105.

I prefer the analog outputs to the HDMI in from my 105 using the Onkyo Preamp.
I ordered a Marantz AV8801 and it will be interesting to compare them.

Of course, 7.1 may not really apply to the target audience for this product.
Still, I like the feature set on the UMC-200 better.

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post #318 of 508 Old 01-16-2013, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Rex Kramer, Danger Seeker? Asking about a design flaw in a forum that was set up for marketing purposes, with all the brand fanboys hanging out there? We all know how that ended when I did that at the Emotiva marketing forum.

I'm no Outlaw fanboi but I think that is a bit unfair. The Outlaw forum for the most part has been fairly civilized and informative over the years with minimal interference from its owner. I don't think anyone can say that about the Emotiva forum. In fact if I had a complaint against the Outlaw forum it would be due to lack of the owners participation. Things have to get pretty out of hand for Peter T to show up.

Full disclosure I used to own Outlaw Pre/Pros and currently own three of their amps. I also own an Emotiva amp.
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post #319 of 508 Old 01-16-2013, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

That depends on your speakers and your sub.
If you speakers are full range and the players A/D is much better say from an Oppo BDP-105.
Who in this forum has L/R speakers that deliver bass better than their sub?
Quote:
I prefer the analog outputs to the HDMI in from my 105 using the Onkyo Preamp.
I ordered a Marantz AV8801 and it will be interesting to compare them.
Maybe your preference has more to do with the Onkyo than the alleged benefits of analog bypass in general. Will look forward to your thoughts post-Marantz. And post-XT32.
Quote:
Of course, 7.1 may not really apply to the target audience for this product.
7.1 is very much within the target. It's a 7.1 processor.
Quote:
Still, I like the feature set on the UMC-200 better.
Understood. Me too, as I am quite partial to processors with PEQ capability. Mine also has dandy 2.0 and 7.1 bypass functions, but they are never used.

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post #320 of 508 Old 01-17-2013, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Who in this forum has L/R speakers that deliver bass better than their sub?

There may be some that have better but not more bass from the mains.
Mine are Revel Salons and I feel there bass is better than my Velodyne HGS-15.
However, the HGS-15 can shake my house better, but I have it at a minimum level.
It gets boring after a while and wakes the kids.
Quote:
Maybe your preference has more to do with the Onkyo than the alleged benefits of analog bypass in general.
Will look forward to your thoughts post-Marantz. And post-XT32.

That may well be true. I cannot wait to test that theory.
I hope they are the similar. That is not the case with the 5507.
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7.1 is very much within the target. It's a 7.1 processor.

Fair enough. I think they should have this feature as well.
Let's hope Outlaw has an higher-end processor in the works.
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Understood. Me too, as I am quite partial to processors with PEQ capability. Mine also has dandy 2.0 and 7.1 bypass functions, but they are never used.

What is your processor?

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post #321 of 508 Old 01-17-2013, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

There may be some that have better but not more bass from the mains.
Mine are Revel Salons and I feel there bass is better than my Velodyne HGS-15.
Point taken. But I submit you may not be within the 6-sigma of the target demographic for the 975. biggrin.gif
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What is your processor?
SSP-800

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post #322 of 508 Old 01-18-2013, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

The question is does the 975 at $549 have high-end two channel sound. As Roger pointed out in post #307 the 975 doesn't have a direct analog signal path. So without that I would question whether the two channel performance of the 975 is really high-end.

Bill

The analog direct feature would only improve the sound quality of an analog input to the 975. Feeding the pre/pro a digital signal (CD/SACD, Blu-Ray, DD, etc) results in high-end sound quality. Well, in the case of DD about as good as you are going to get. DD was never meant for reference quality listening anyhow. I find it interesting that the least expensive pre-amp I have ever owned (975) is one of the best sounding. The freq response and S/N measurements from Home Theater mag also give empirical evidence of it's quality.

So I took the cover off this week to see what is inside. I am not going to post specific make/model of components as Outlaw may wish this to be kept confidential. A few things stood out...

The DACs are all a well known high-end brand matching the specs Outlaw has listed on their site. Googling the part number shows it is used in a variety of high-end audio gear. The analog output stage and OP-AMPs are well laid out on the main PCB and are of high quality. The 975 has 2.5 power supplies. There is a custom made switch mode power supply for the CPU, front panel illumination, etc... and a DEDICATED toroidal transformer, bridge rectifier, caps and regulator for just the DACs. When you turn on the 975, the always on switch mode power supply closes the contacts on a relay which feeds AC to the toroidal power transformer. Nice engineering Outlaw. smile.gif There are also several voltage regulators on large heat sinks to power what appears to be the video/HDMI section. The HDMI transmitter and receiver are of a well known up-market chip set. The video scaler IC is under a larger heat sink and I did not remove the heat sink to investigate further as I run all the sources in my theater room in their native display anyway. Also it appears I would have to remove the HDMI PCB to remove the heat sink.

My only complaint is the front panel. While it is a nice brushed aluminum it is not as thick as it appears. It is actually a U shaped piece with the center of the U holding the front panel display, source selection buttons, etc... Of course the thickness of the front panel does not change the sound quality but if this was Levinson or Krell the panel would be at least 3 inches thick. biggrin.gif A nice well made piece of hi-fi.
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post #323 of 508 Old 01-18-2013, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophil View Post

Quote:
The analog direct feature would only improve the sound quality of an analog input to the 975.

I believe that fact has already been discussed in this thread.

Quote:
Feeding the pre/pro a digital signal (CD/SACD, Blu-Ray, DD, etc) results in high-end sound quality.

That is kind of a broad based opinion if you think about it. Are you basing that opinion on other prepros or AVRs that you have heard? Would that be components in the 975's price range or ones priced higher?

Bill

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post #324 of 508 Old 01-18-2013, 08:19 PM
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Feeding the pre/pro a digital signal (CD/SACD, Blu-Ray, DD, etc) results in high-end sound quality.

Very much agree here - feeding the 975 digital output from a CD player equaled or bested the output from my Lexicon MC12 and Marantz AV8003.

In my family room I had been using an AV receiver with preouts and that was unquestionably outclassed by the 975!

Wyatt
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post #325 of 508 Old 01-18-2013, 11:50 PM
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There may be some that have better but not more bass from the mains.
Mine are Revel Salons and I feel there bass is better than my Velodyne HGS-15.


- Rich

If that's the case then you have the Velodyne set up wrong.

I always use a sub for music for the same reason I always use a sub for movies.

Subs are better below 40Hz than even capable speakers like the Salons.

The HGS15 is a very good sub still.
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post #326 of 508 Old 01-19-2013, 09:14 AM
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I have an LED-LCD and a projector. Which switcher would you guys recommend if I decide to go with the 975?

JVC RS25 Projector

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post #327 of 508 Old 01-19-2013, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Point taken. But I submit you may not be within the 6-sigma of the target demographic for the 975. biggrin.gif
SSP-800

Sort of.
I am not the biggest fan of over-featured products that we now find in many products.
I ran an amp shootout between my old Sunfire Cinema Grand, my Friends Outlaw 7200, and a D-Sonic 400PC ICE amp.
I since upgraded to a Sunfire 7400 which I like very much. I needed a low heat solution.
Not a fan of the ICE amp, but I was tremendously impressed by the Outlaw.

My friend also blew a couple of channels (definately his fault) but the support he got from Outlaw was fantastic.
Where I in the market for an conventional AMP, I would buy an Outlaw.

In a vacation house, I have Revel M20'a and a sunfire AMP so this product might be perfect there.
Escecilly since network features are not of much use. wink.gif

I do believe that a company like Outlaw or Emotiva *could* roduce an excellent sounding Preamp that comes with less logo's on the box that sounds every bit as good or better than a $3K preamp.

- Rich

P.S. The SSP-800 is a fantastic piece. Can't spend that rignt now though...

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post #328 of 508 Old 01-19-2013, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Dodds View Post

If that's the case then you have the Velodyne set up wrong.

I always use a sub for music for the same reason I always use a sub for movies.

Subs are better below 40Hz than even capable speakers like the Salons.

The HGS15 is a very good sub still.

Subs produce more bass. Which according to your tastes may or may not be *better*.
More often than not, I prefer the detail and clarity on the Revel bass.

The HGS15 can rattle the rafters to be sure.
It could sound better, but I do not have many placement choices due to its size and WAF (Wife approval factors).

In another room, I have a Martin Logan Grotto i.
This is a sweet sounding litte sub. I might actually prefer wired into the the FL/FR analog outs in my main room.
One day, I will try that.

- Rich

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Oppo BDP-105D | Oppo HA-1 | Oppo PM-1 | Parasound A21 & A31 | Revel Salon, Voice, Studio | Velodyne HGS-15
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post #329 of 508 Old 02-05-2013, 06:29 PM
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I'm considering purchasing this pre/pro to pair with my H/K PA5800 for a budget separates setup. Any owners having any problems or disappointment with theirs? Thanks in advance.
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post #330 of 508 Old 02-06-2013, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Or you could go with a mid-level AR and a preamp with HT Bypass like the Parasound 2100 or the Emotiva USP-1. This way you have the best of both worlds for TV/HT and music smile.gif.

Bill

Is the HT Bypass mandatory? Could you not use an aux input on an older preamp? I'm not sure I understand this. Thanks.
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