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Receivers, Amps, and Processors > OUTLAW 975
dcnblues's Avatar dcnblues 03:32 PM 02-06-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Subs produce more bass. Which according to your tastes may or may not be *better*.
...It could sound better, but I do not have many placement choices due to its size and WAF (Wife approval factors). - Rich

Roger on those comments.

dcnblues's Avatar dcnblues 03:49 PM 02-06-2013
A quick question as I'm new to multichannel audio.

I'm slowly grasping that threads like these (and equipment like the Outlaw 975) are for people who's preference largely involves flowing sound from 2 channel stereo to multichannel home setups.

But I'm on the legacy side (I want to optimize a home music server with HD files) and want to send the flow in the other direction: mostly from multichannel video down to my analogue 2 channel setup.

Existing outputs from my cable box and new bluray player have a terrible mix probably familiar to most of you - center dialogue mixed in too low to side channels, and a poor listening experience. However, I'm not that fussy for movie sound. 2 channel HD music is my priority.

I'd like to find a solution where I could put one speaker behind the couch and route the center channel there, exclude the subwoofer channel, and run some optimum mix of the remaining channels out to my analogue system. My old pre-amp does not have an HT passthrough, and I'd like to know if I could use something like an aux input on my preamp for this. I'd like to be able to balance the volume between the center channel speaker (powered?), and the other channels going to by two floorstanding speakers. This would be ideal for late night quiet tv viewing, which I need. Can the Outlaw 975 let me do this? I don't understand the output options. Many thanks.
Roger Dressler's Avatar Roger Dressler 04:51 PM 02-06-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcnblues View Post

I'd like to find a solution where I could put one speaker behind the couch and route the center channel there, exclude the subwoofer channel, and run some optimum mix of the remaining channels out to my analogue system. My old pre-amp does not have an HT passthrough, and I'd like to know if I could use something like an aux input on my preamp for this. I'd like to be able to balance the volume between the center channel speaker (powered?), and the other channels going to by two floorstanding speakers. This would be ideal for late night quiet tv viewing, which I need. Can the Outlaw 975 let me do this? I don't understand the output options. Many thanks.
The 975 will let you define a 5.1 speaker set like this:
L/C/R: on, all Large
Surround: none
Subwoofer: Yes

Connect the C output to the dialog speaker behind the couch.

Connect the L/R out to the 2-ch preamp aux in to hear music and effects at any level you like by using the volume control on the preamp. Once the ratio between this and dialog is set, use the 975 volume control.

Do not connect a subwoofer. The LFE will not be heard.

If you feed the 975 TV audio in stereo, use PLII Movie mode to extract the dialog to the center. If you feed 5.1, you will get whatever separation is in the source. Not all dialog is carried in the center, so you might hear some crosstalk into the preamp at a lower level.
dcnblues's Avatar dcnblues 06:47 PM 02-06-2013
Thanks very much Roger. This looks like a workable solution, though I was hoping to do this for half the price. Good looking box though, so that helps.
Audiophil's Avatar Audiophil 09:30 PM 02-06-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcnblues View Post

A quick question as I'm new to multichannel audio.

I'm slowly grasping that threads like these (and equipment like the Outlaw 975) are for people who's preference largely involves flowing sound from 2 channel stereo to multichannel home setups.

But I'm on the legacy side (I want to optimize a home music server with HD files) and want to send the flow in the other direction: mostly from multichannel video down to my analogue 2 channel setup.

Existing outputs from my cable box and new bluray player have a terrible mix probably familiar to most of you - center dialogue mixed in too low to side channels, and a poor listening experience. However, I'm not that fussy for movie sound. 2 channel HD music is my priority.

I'd like to find a solution where I could put one speaker behind the couch and route the center channel there, exclude the subwoofer channel, and run some optimum mix of the remaining channels out to my analogue system. My old pre-amp does not have an HT passthrough, and I'd like to know if I could use something like an aux input on my preamp for this. I'd like to be able to balance the volume between the center channel speaker (powered?), and the other channels going to by two floorstanding speakers. This would be ideal for late night quiet tv viewing, which I need. Can the Outlaw 975 let me do this? I don't understand the output options. Many thanks.

I might be missing something here, but you want to have center channel audio coming from behind your listening position? Dialog on screen in front of you will be coming from behind you with video content? eek.gif While Roger's suggestion would work, why not just use the 975's "night mode"? This will process the audio with compression and avoid large changes in audio level. The center channel audio would still remain up front too. tongue.gif

Possible undocumented feature for 2 channel people... when in 'Stereo+Sub' mode if you press the surround effect button once the 975 defaults to 2 channel only mode. This might also be helpful if you want to limit bass at night.
dcnblues's Avatar dcnblues 10:07 AM 02-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophil View Post

I might be missing something here, but you want to have center channel audio coming from behind your listening position? Dialog on screen in front of you will be coming from behind you with video content? eek.gif While Roger's suggestion would work, why not just use the 975's "night mode"? This will process the audio with compression and avoid large changes in audio level. The center channel audio would still remain up front too. tongue.gif

Actually, yes. I am SO fed up with not having control over all the different formats, differences between show / movie sound levels and commercial levels, crappy mixes from just about every source I hear, I just want some control back. I love the idea of getting control of the mix. I talked once to a theatre owner who had just redone his movie theatre, and put in top line audio, but didn't pay for THX certification because he didn't like the sound insulation / muting requirements. To him, a big room should sound like a big room, and echo had a small place in the world of high fidelity. I agree with that perspective.

I tend not to like audio rooms that have been carpeted, and use subwoofers. I like simple excellent systems with very clean midrange, and don't get off on the sensation of feeling air move my body any place other than my eardrums. I'm very suspicious of room sampling, computer processing, messing with the audio signal.

I don't want to festoon my living space with 5, 7, 12, or however many speakers some corporation is peddling in order to push me to attend theatrical movie presentation. Sensurround did nothing for me, and I have no need for or pleasure in hearing space ships or laser effects move from behind right to front left, and I DEEPLY resent having to buy a bunch of ugly boxes for my living space just to get an unmuddied mix of dialogue and other sounds (and the girlfriend wouldn't let me do that anyway).

I think stereo sound is excellent and preferable to multichannel when reproducing music, and perfectly adequate for movies and tv. I think you get a much better return on investment from two quality speakers than 12 mediocre ones, and it's much easier and simpler to balance two speakers in a room than letting some computer try to do it with multiple speakers. The more complexity added to a system, the harder it is to balance / control, and you loose more than you gain.

It would be nice if directors, actors, and sound recorders, a much higher percentage of the time, understood and appreciated that mumbled dialogue is EXTREMELY burdensome to the viewer. When that dialogue is separated into a single channel among seven, then badly mixed back in to a 2 channel output, it can be frustrating enough that viewers will rebel and look for solutions where they can bypass all this corporate trademarked multichannel garbage and get enough control to actually hear what people are saying on the extortionist cable monopoly service for which they are paying.

If they're going to separate most of the dialogue into one channel, I like the idea of taking it to a speaker much closer to my ears. I'm not delighted I need to spend $600 to do so, but I understand that production licensing of these pervasive formats means I have to shell out. But I'm going to use my box the way I want to. My brain rather easily can match dialogue from behind me with moving lips on a screen in front of me. Not going to be a problem. And as I said, low volume listening will be much clearer.

Sorry for the rant, and it's also good to know about 'night mode.' As I said, however, that's one more algorithm I'd rather not have to trust, and would rather come up with a simple solution. Many thanks for the help.
Audiophil's Avatar Audiophil 08:16 PM 02-11-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcnblues View Post


I think stereo sound is excellent and preferable to multichannel when reproducing music, and perfectly adequate for movies and tv. I think you get a much better return on investment from two quality speakers than 12 mediocre ones, and it's much easier and simpler to balance two speakers in a room than letting some computer try to do it with multiple speakers. The more complexity added to a system, the harder it is to balance / control, and you loose more than you gain.

I am with you on most of those ideas. My 975 is in 2 channel mode 60% of the time as it makes some really nice music. We differ in that I find a properly mixed DTS-HD/Dobly True mix using high-end/high quality loudspeakers adds to the movie going experience. While technically incorrect, placing the center channel behind your listening position for better dialog can certainly be done.

The full size remotes are starting to come in as I received mine today. Outlaw included a nice thank you note for being patient and a deck of playing cards as a thank you. This combined with calling me to see if I wanted the pre-amp shipped over night for x-mas is customer service that rivals other high-end audio firms I have purchased from. Also the fit and finish of the remote puts any Lexicon remote I have owned to shame. A nice remote with classy blue back lighting, high-end sound, and playing cards, what more could you want? Ok, an analog pass through for the vinyl lovers may be. tongue.gif


dcnblues's Avatar dcnblues 03:06 AM 02-12-2013
Thanks for your comments. Good to know about the remote - I was wondering a bit. Still not sure what I'll end up doing (I'm trying to figure out a design for an audio rack of some kind). Sigh. Complications, complexity, it's all a lot of work...
dcnblues's Avatar dcnblues 04:24 PM 02-14-2013
I have a new question. I'll probably be going with a 975, but rather than use the RCA output to a multichannel amp, I'll go to a powered speaker (for the center channel). Any data on output voltage for the 975? If I run an RCA to TRS / 1/4" conversion cable, can I use a long cable (25-35 feet)? Or will I need some kind of signal booster?
Roger Dressler's Avatar Roger Dressler 11:23 PM 02-14-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcnblues View Post

I have a new question. I'll probably be going with a 975, but rather than use the RCA output to a multichannel amp, I'll go to a powered speaker (for the center channel). Any data on output voltage for the 975? If I run an RCA to TRS / 1/4" conversion cable, can I use a long cable (25-35 feet)? Or will I need some kind of signal booster?
The length of cable will not make any difference, assuming you use decent cable, low capacitance, good shielding. If the sensitivity of the powered speaker is something on the order of 1 Vrms for full power, it will work fine.
gurkey's Avatar gurkey 01:12 AM 02-15-2013
+1.
Especially look for "very good" shielding (double) on long cable runs, so you don't pick up any hum or noise on the way.
dcnblues's Avatar dcnblues 02:33 PM 02-15-2013
Excellent. I was hoping that would work. Many thanks for the help.
danr1707's Avatar danr1707 07:14 PM 02-22-2013
2 quick questions. Is the front display dimmable? and does volume changes display via OSD?
Roger Dressler's Avatar Roger Dressler 02:56 AM 02-23-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by danr1707 View Post

2 quick questions. Is the front display dimmable? and does volume changes display via OSD?
No. No. Those are the quickest answers I can give.
bootman_head_fi's Avatar bootman_head_fi 06:25 AM 03-04-2013
Has anyone else seen this blurb yet?

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-57569615-47/do-separate-components-sound-better-than-av-receivers/


A little disappointing since it isn't really a fair comparison IMO but interesting nevertheless.
markus767's Avatar markus767 06:45 AM 03-04-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Has anyone else seen this blurb yet?

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-57569615-47/do-separate-components-sound-better-than-av-receivers/


A little disappointing since it isn't really a fair comparison IMO but interesting nevertheless.

He somehow forgot to describe the test conditions thoroughly. Without it the test is worthless.
Bill Mac's Avatar Bill Mac 09:11 AM 03-04-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Has anyone else seen this blurb yet?

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-57569615-47/do-separate-components-sound-better-than-av-receivers/


A little disappointing since it isn't really a fair comparison IMO but interesting nevertheless.

I had seen that "review" before and I agree the comparsion isn't very fair. While the reviewer was at it why didn't he connect the Outlaw amp to a Denon AVR with preouts? Then it would have been a much better comparison. But as Markus said without listing the test conditions the "review" is not worth much.

Bill
RichB's Avatar RichB 12:14 PM 03-04-2013
The review says more about the amp than the preamp.
But I suspect the conclusions are valid.

Here is the hometheater mag reivew of the Outlaw 7500.

Check you the 1974 Dahlquist DQ-10 (LCR) speakers used for this review.

An this person felt this was the proper speaker to make judgements about bass performance. eek.gif

- Rich
guisar's Avatar guisar 02:15 PM 03-07-2013
You could also get a second hand AVR (like the Pioneer VSX-023THX, around $150) which has 7.1 or 5.1 analogue unbalanced I/O and use that instead of the 975. This would both be much less expensive initially but there'd be virtually no (or a lot less) depreciation if/when you decided to get rid of it. It would probably also do a much better job than the 975 as the Pioneer and similar AVR of it's (2009) vintage have pretty decent room correction, parametric equalization and the ability to customize the crossover and routing of audio signals in and out of the line-level I/O.
ZOOM ZOOM's Avatar ZOOM ZOOM 07:43 PM 03-07-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by guisar View Post

You could also get a second hand AVR (like the Pioneer VSX-023THX, around $150) which has 7.1 or 5.1 analogue unbalanced I/O and use that instead of the 975. This would both be much less expensive initially but there'd be virtually no (or a lot less) depreciation if/when you decided to get rid of it. It would probably also do a much better job than the 975 as the Pioneer and similar AVR of it's (2009) vintage have pretty decent room correction, parametric equalization and the ability to customize the crossover and routing of audio signals in and out of the line-level I/O.

Do you mean the VSX-1023THX at $500.00+? I could not find the vsx-023THX. the 1023 does not have pre outs, that counts me out, I need pre outs.

I am debating on the 975 or the Marantz NR1403 at under $400.00.

Edit: My mistake... you mentioned second hand.
amatuerholic's Avatar amatuerholic 07:36 AM 03-18-2013
What I'm looking to do is have a stereo setup for a bit, with the potential to expand to a home theater after. The integrated amplifiers available to do what I want are all around the $800-$2,000 price point (Creek Evolution 5350, Plinius, Krell KAV, Marantz PM8004).

For that price, I was thinking that going the route of a 975 + 2200 monoblocks would be a better financial move ($1250) and allow for easier upgrades in the future. The only thing stopping me are reliability of the pro, future resale value (especially if I buy one of those integrated amps used), and AVRs like the Yamaha RX-A720 which are $100 more and provide the amplification for surround channels at a lower cost. With the AVR I'd still buy the monoblocks for stereo listening, but I'm not too concerned when it comes to surround sound. Any advice for what I'm looking to do while keeping the cost under $1200-$1500? For what it's worth, I'm planning on running Dynaudio C1s in the front (long-term) but am currently using the Focus 140s.
chalugadp's Avatar chalugadp 03:49 AM 03-24-2013
I currently have a denon avr and if I have audyssey turned off the bass coming from my hsu vtf15 is ok for movies. When audyssey is on (which is how I have it) bass is awesome . Way more and powerful with audyssey on. I know 975 doesn't have room correction but has anyone come from an audyssey based receiver to the 975 ? If so was the amount of bass the same with the 975 ? I don't have dynamic eq or dynamic volume on with the denon.
chalugadp's Avatar chalugadp 03:49 AM 03-24-2013
.
bozobuttz's Avatar bozobuttz 12:44 PM 04-01-2013
I just picked up a used Outlaw Model 7075 amplifier to use with my GoldenEar surround sound system and Pioneer Elite receiver. Well, I quickly discovered my receiver does not have pre-outs and I am in need of a preamp! The seller also had his Outlaw Model 990 preamp for sale but I took a pass, as it would not fit my HDMI needs. So now I am looking at getting either this Model 975 or the Emotiva UMC-200. This will be my first entry into separates and I am "sonically" attracted to the prices of both. I would prefer the 975 since it would match my amp and is less expensive. However, I'm leaning more toward the Emotiva at this point based on price/features. I would pull the trigger on the 975 if it was $499 shipped!
bootman_head_fi's Avatar bootman_head_fi 08:40 AM 04-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by bozobuttz View Post

I just picked up a used Outlaw Model 7075 amplifier to use with my GoldenEar surround sound system and Pioneer Elite receiver. Well, I quickly discovered my receiver does not have pre-outs and I am in need of a preamp! The seller also had his Outlaw Model 990 preamp for sale but I took a pass, as it would not fit my HDMI needs. So now I am looking at getting either this Model 975 or the Emotiva UMC-200. This will be my first entry into separates and I am "sonically" attracted to the prices of both. I would prefer the 975 since it would match my amp and is less expensive. However, I'm leaning more toward the Emotiva at this point based on price/features. I would pull the trigger on the 975 if it was $499 shipped!

The UMC-200 has the PEQ function enabled and the auto speaker setup enabled, other than that they do use the same chipset.
Also the way the 975 is implemented it may not allow for bass management and delay management with all high resolution codecs.
You should contact Outlaw about this if you think it may affect your system. (It may not in all cases)
Dave Vaughn's Avatar Dave Vaughn 09:07 AM 04-02-2013
I've reviewed both (Emotiva review should be online this month) and both pre/pros outperform their price by a wide margin. If you need room correction, then the Emotiva would be a good choice. If you need legacy video support, then the Outlaw. Both sound great.
bozobuttz's Avatar bozobuttz 10:36 AM 04-02-2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

I've reviewed both (Emotiva review should be online this month) and both pre/pros outperform their price by a wide margin. If you need room correction, then the Emotiva would be a good choice. If you need legacy video support, then the Outlaw. Both sound great.
Hi Dave, I already read both of your reviews. Thanks. I am not convinced that I *need* room correction. Maybe I am naive, but receivers of yesteryear such as my old Sony did not have room correction yet it sounded pretty darn good in my room. I have not been very impressed by my Pioneer receiver's MCACC EQ feature so I have it turned off anyway. I agree whichever model I choose, it will sound good.
bootman_head_fi's Avatar bootman_head_fi 11:00 AM 04-02-2013
Room correction should always come after room treatments.
If you have a well tamed room, you may not need RC at all.

(and not everyone cares for a "flat" sound)
chalugadp's Avatar chalugadp 04:37 PM 04-02-2013
Not everyone can use room treatments for various reasons
. You are certainly right about not everyone having to want flat sound.
kucharsk's Avatar kucharsk 04:55 AM 04-16-2013
Does the 975 pass/switch 4K video?
Tags: Outlaw Audio
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