OUTLAW 975 - Page 18 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #511 of 527 Old 01-24-2016, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apodaca View Post
I am posting this so that potential buyers are aware that the 975 in combination with low sensitivity speakers will reveal the lack of headroom in volume/SPL output.
Has nothing to do with speaker sensitivity. What's the input sensitivity of your amp? There's probably a mismatch between the 975 and the amp. Get an amp with adjustable input sensitivity.

Markus

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post #512 of 527 Old 01-24-2016, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apodaca View Post
I decided to give the 975 a second chance since I first tried one a couple of years ago that had HDMI problems. I figured that eventually problems would be ironed out via firmware updates etc. Prior to sale I contacted Outlaw for technical advice since I had read on the Outlaw forums about people experiencing a decreased headroom in volume output with the 975. I was assured that the 975 in combination with the 5000 amplifier would work with my somewhat inefficient 84 dB, Sunfire speakers.

This turned out to be false. I am struggling to reach 90dB on some source material. Just to check, I used my NAD 326Bee as a pre-amplifier connected to the 5000 amp and I was able to generate higher SPL. I contacted Outlaw and they claimed nothing is wrong in their design, and they have not heard of any customers having the same problem. This is a lie since other people have posted their problem on Audioholics (stating that Outlaw was contacted) and even the Outlaw saloon. My only option it seems is to ship unit back and lose the one way shipping. Not cool.

The 975 also still has HDMI handshake issues that although have been improved upon, are nevertheless troublesome at least with my gear (Pioneer DV-58AV, Sony PS3, Vizio XVT LCD). Basically it does not always detect a source on the HDMI inputs so either switching or power cycling is necessary. I am also sometimes experiencing audio dropouts in both source players at random.

I am posting this so that potential buyers are aware that the 975 in combination with low sensitivity speakers will reveal the lack of headroom in volume/SPL output.
I've had a 975 for a few years now. I do not have HDMI problems, but I had more volume when I was using my Onkyo as a preamp for my mains/center. I believe there is a headroom issue as well.
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post #513 of 527 Old 01-24-2016, 02:00 PM
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I have to say I'm running a 975 with an Outlaw Model 5000 amp along with my SVS Prime speakers (87db sensitivity) & I have no volume issues whatsoever. I can barely go above -18 on the 975 without it being almost ear-bleedingly loud.
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post #514 of 527 Old 01-25-2016, 05:02 PM
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It is not on all source material but older CDs in particular before the loudness wars crippled their dynamic range, have a lower output that one usually needs to turn the volume dial up to compensate etc. (on these I max out at 90dB peaks).

I was debating keeping the unit until they release a new processor, but we lost video during transformers BD playback on PS3, and I just noticed the case is noticeably warped...sigh

On a more positive note, the 5000 amplifier works pretty well and is built like a tank.
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post #515 of 527 Old 01-25-2016, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apodaca View Post
I am struggling to reach 90dB on some source material.
Before you send it off, could you check the volume setting that gives 75 dB (Cwtd) from the internal test noise?

What kind of source material is the most problematic? edit: I see you mention old CDs.

The issue is not lack of headroom, but gain. If it were headroom, the audio would be clipping in the 975 before the amplifier clips. The 975 can overdrive any normal amplifier (signal-swing-wise).

Deadwood Atmos theater [HTOM]
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs

Last edited by Roger Dressler; 01-25-2016 at 08:21 PM.
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post #516 of 527 Old 01-25-2016, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Before you send it off, could you check the volume setting that gives 75 dB (Cwtd) from the internal test noise?

What kind of source material is the most problematic? edit: I see you mention old CDs.

The issue is not lack of headroom, but gain. If it were headroom, the audio would be clipping in the 975 before the amplifier clips. The 975 can overdrive any normal amplifier (signal-swing-wise).

I get what you are saying and Outlaw mentioned this as well and yet I can get 100 dB peaks with my NAD preamp driving the same amplifier using the same source. Even an Anthem receiver could do the same with internal amplifier stage.

Maybe Outlaw 975 has problem with input gain if there is such a thing for PCM vs DTS ?. At any rate, I set -20 at 80 dB but will double check. If I raise dB on speaker level menu then the max volume available is also reduced by the same amount weird but true. Not very friendly for low sensitivity speakers.
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post #517 of 527 Old 01-25-2016, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Has nothing to do with speaker sensitivity. What's the input sensitivity of your amp? There's probably a mismatch between the 975 and the amp. Get an amp with adjustable input sensitivity.
Sensitivity does affect maximum output available. There is no mismatch as both amp and preamp are Outlaw products.

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post #518 of 527 Old 01-25-2016, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apodaca View Post
I get what you are saying and Outlaw mentioned this as well and yet I can get 100 dB peaks with my NAD preamp driving the same amplifier using the same source. Even an Anthem receiver could do the same with internal amplifier stage.

Maybe Outlaw 975 has problem with input gain if there is such a thing for PCM vs DTS ?. At any rate, I set -20 at 80 dB but will double check.
I have a 975 here, but the system is packed for a house move. In the past, I took note that a volume setting of -28 gave me 75 dB, at the MLP. My speakers are claimed to be 86 dB (2 dB more than yours). With your speakers, I would need to set to -26, and to get to 80 dB, it would be -21. If you get 80 dB at -20, it looks like your unit is working the same as mine, FWIW.

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If I raise dB on speaker level menu then the max volume available is also reduced by the same amount weird but true. Not very friendly for low sensitivity speakers.
That is correct. Like most AVRs and pre-pros, the gain trims and volume controls are all done by the same gain element. It's just a table of offsets that defines the gain trims. Others may do a better job of masking that interaction by sectioning off 12-15 dB of the control range for the trims.

I agree the 975 does not have a lot of reserve gain on tap. In my case, I do not play music very loud, 60-70 dB, 80 when rambunctious, so it has not been an issue. And indeed older CDs were "printed" quieter than newer ones. I have 2 different versions of Brothers in Arms, and I looked at both of them in Adobe Audition. Both have peaks reaching full scale, so in order for the newer, louder one to sound louder, the average was increased while the peaks were truncated. Yes, they used some fancy DSP processor to do it to avoid clipping (which is not the case on a lot of CDs ), but the percussive snap is just not the same. So the new on is on the shelf, and the old one is on the server. My point is that it may well be the case that your amps are being well exercised, but for much less of the time (lower average loudness with higher peak-to-average ratio). Small consolation, I suppose.

Last point: the 975 has a pretty low noise level. Adding gain in the output stage will raise that. The Marantz 7702 had higher gain, but I had to install 10 dB attenuators on the outputs to keep the hiss/buzz below audibility in my quiet room. Now that takes away from the headroom!

Deadwood Atmos theater [HTOM]
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #519 of 527 Old 01-25-2016, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apodaca View Post
Sensitivity does affect maximum output available. There is no mismatch as both amp and preamp are Outlaw products.
Sure it "does affect maximum output available". Never said it wouldn't.
Max. clean preamp output and amp input sensitivity don't necessarily match only because it's the same manufacturer. Have you looked up output/input sensitivity of preamp/amp?

Markus

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post #520 of 527 Old 04-28-2016, 09:32 AM
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I'm looking at the 975 as a basic and hopefully pretty transparent preamp. I don't need or want video processing, all my sources are 1080P and my JVC 57 projector upscales to their faux version of 4K. That is good enough for me for the foreseeable future.

I have three HDMI inputs: DVD player, O!Play, Roku. At most I might add digital cable but that is unlikely at this point as streaming seems to work much better for less.

I need only one HDMI output to the projector. I don't have or need other zones.

I have a Dirac 88a room correction system, don't need that in the preamp either. It does need to work well with the Dirac.

What I want is something that will faithfully reproduce the sound from these sources, send a clean 1080P video stream to the projector and set up properly for 7.1 sound. I don't envision ever expanding beyond 7.1 for reasons of the room limitations and WAF.

I'll admit this thing is so cheap I am concerned if it can do this very basic job I need from it while being compatible with the Dirac and my sources. The alternative is a used Marantz 7702 which really has far more stuff than I need or want.

Right now I'm using an ancient but amazingly reliable Parasound AVC2500U. I would expect the replacement to sound a little better but the sound of this old geezer is pretty good when processed with the Dirac. In this big room I want the two additional channels, hence the change.

Shouldn't be any problem with sensitivity or gain with the Sunfire Cinema Grand amp and the Dirac has gain adjustment as well. So don't need that in the preamp either.

What appeals to me about the 975 is the simplicity and lack of duplication of the things that my other equipment can and will do better.

Comments?

My HT is an oldie but goodie!

Last edited by DanHouck; 04-28-2016 at 09:35 AM.
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post #521 of 527 Old 06-22-2016, 12:50 PM
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Are there any Outlaw 975 owners still around?

I did go ahead and get one and basically I'm pretty pleased although there have been a few glitches on setting up. I'm looking for a really good DTS HD 7.1 test file I can burn to a DVD to test the system. Any suggestions?

My HT is an oldie but goodie!
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post #522 of 527 Old 06-22-2016, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanHouck View Post
Are there any Outlaw 975 owners still around?

I did go ahead and get one and basically I'm pretty pleased although there have been a few glitches on setting up. I'm looking for a really good DTS HD 7.1 test file I can burn to a DVD to test the system. Any suggestions?
I got one as well. Mine has some gain issues as others have reported.

Music (streamed for now, other equipment is packed up) is fine, plenty of headroom to play louder than I need.

Movies/shows require that I crank the gain way up to reach modest volumes. Music at say, -40 or -35 will be as loud as -10 or more for movies. It's inconsistent. Some shows/movies are better than others. For some of the worst offenders, I put it to max volume and it was what I consider moderate at best. It bugs me, and I have decided to return the 975. I'll likely be replacing it with a Yamaha 2050. I did confirm that my firmware is on the latest version, 5.3. One of the things this was supposed to address was inconsistent levels with HDMI.
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post #523 of 527 Old 06-23-2016, 05:22 AM
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I had the gain problem with my earlier AVP, an ancient Parasound 2500U so I upped the gain in my Dirac 88a to compensate and that setting serves very well with the Outlaw too.

Seems to have plenty of gain with my streamed and downloaded stuff as well. The latter tend to be all over the place when it comes to gain, I can't blame that on the AVP.

My HT is an oldie but goodie!
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post #524 of 527 Old 06-23-2016, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanHouck View Post
Are there any Outlaw 975 owners still around?

I did go ahead and get one and basically I'm pretty pleased although there have been a few glitches on setting up. I'm looking for a really good DTS HD 7.1 test file I can burn to a DVD to test the system. Any suggestions?
I own a 975 mated to a 7125 and three 2200s. It works well including accepting an ARC signal from my LG OLED. I have two issues with it. I have the same sound level issues as everyone else. It doesn't play very loud. Prior to my 975, I used an Onkyo AVR as my preamp and had much more volume. I think the IR receiver is not very sensitive. I had much difficultly getting my Harmony to control the 975 until I got a harmony hub and put the repeater right in front of the 975.

Sent from my SM-P600 using Tapatalk

LG 65EF9500
Oppo BDP-103
Polk LSiM703, LSiM704C, LSi 7
Rythmik A370PEQ2 sub
Outlaw 975
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post #525 of 527 Old 08-03-2016, 09:12 AM
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I have been having a problem with the HDMI output from a component signal. I keep getting a faint horizontal green line moving up the screen. Google is telling me it is a group loop issue. If I have the 975 output via the component out everything is fine, but it only will not up convert to 720p and up. I would be fine just leaving the resolution the same as the source, but it looks so much better up converted minus the green line. HDMI sources are fine. It is just when the 975 is outputing hdmi from a component input. Any way to fix this?
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post #526 of 527 Old 08-04-2016, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Simon1921 View Post
I keep getting a faint horizontal green line moving up the screen. Google is telling me it is a group loop issue.
It might be that, or interference from power cables near by. Read this AVSF post. If so, rearranging cables may help.

If it is a ground loop associated with a STB, can try an isolation transformer in the coax cable feeding the STB. Around $10. Here's one example.



All else fails, give Outlaw a call. They may have dealt with it before.

Good luck!

Deadwood Atmos theater [HTOM]
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #527 of 527 Old 08-08-2016, 09:48 AM
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Thank you so much for the help. I do not have a STB connected so I shall try rearranging the cables.
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