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post #91 of 508 Old 11-24-2012, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Hi Bill, I had added detail to my response, not sure if you missed my edit. I explained about the speaker level to RCA inputs.

Thanks for the detailed explanation smile.gif. I would have to agree that just about anything would sound better than using this type of device. I really can not understand why anyone would want to use one of these devices. Unless one really needs the additional power just use the speaker outputs of the AVR that does not have preouts.

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post #92 of 508 Old 11-24-2012, 06:47 PM
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Just to playing "devil's advocate", the same goes with why people buying an obsolete-by-design pre-pro for the sake of using a pre-pro. tongue.gif

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post #93 of 508 Old 11-24-2012, 08:07 PM
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Take a receiver that can be bought for $400.Then,
1) Take out all the power amps
2) Remove the room correction circuity
3) Put an Outlaw sticker on it.
4) Now, charge $500 for it

At least, this is what it looks like to me. I got my Denon 4311 three months ago for $1200 delivered, came with audesseys' best, 9 channels of amp, can run
11.1, has phono input too.
My seven year old Pioneer that I picked up for $500 new delivered can do what the new outlaw does, it has preamp output plus mcaac.
It sits in the garage.
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post #94 of 508 Old 11-24-2012, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dclark View Post

Take a receiver that can be bought for $400.Then,
1) Take out all the power amps
2) Remove the room correction circuity
3) Put an Outlaw sticker on it.
4) Now, charge $500 for it
At least, this is what it looks like to me. I got my Denon 4311 three months ago for $1200 delivered, came with audesseys' best, 9 channels of amp, can run
11.1, has phono input too.
My seven year old Pioneer that I picked up for $500 new delivered can do what the new outlaw does, it has preamp output plus mcaac.
It sits in the garage.

Great post smile.gif. Of course I agree as I have the 4311 and I'd take that over the 975 with an amp any day of the week. I have a "vintage" Denon 3802 stored away that would compare quite well to the 975 wink.gif.

Bill
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post #95 of 508 Old 11-24-2012, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dclark View Post

Take a receiver that can be bought for $400.Then,
1) Take out all the power amps
2) Remove the room correction circuity
3) Put an Outlaw sticker on it.
4) Now, charge $500 for it
At least, this is what it looks like to me. I got my Denon 4311 three months ago for $1200 delivered, came with audesseys' best, 9 channels of amp, can run
11.1, has phono input too.
My seven year old Pioneer that I picked up for $500 new delivered can do what the new outlaw does, it has preamp output plus mcaac.
It sits in the garage.

You mean a $199 Pioneer entry level receiver? biggrin.gif

Take out the power amp, remove room correction, put an Outlaw sticker and charge $549 for it. tongue.gif

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post #96 of 508 Old 11-25-2012, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

At this point any working room correction from Emo is vaporware. The only way to judge what Emo MIGHT have is by what they've done before.

Unlike some, I would also judge Onkyo by what they have done before. Those who did not make the judgement find that they have to buy another unit as back up when their Onkyo decides to act like past units. smile.gif
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post #97 of 508 Old 11-25-2012, 08:09 AM
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Trying to get back on course with this thread and stop all the mudslingging, does anyone know what dacs are in the 975 ?
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post #98 of 508 Old 11-25-2012, 09:03 AM
 
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I'm more interest in the analog components and circuitry. A decent inexpensive DAC with good analog circuitry will sound better than a great DAC with lower cost analog circuitry. I'm guessing that's why they haven't advertised that they use a given model DAC. Ideally, you want both but I wouldn't expect the world for $549, although for $200 I'm sure you can beat it:p:rolleyes:
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post #99 of 508 Old 11-25-2012, 11:00 AM
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Every manufacturer boasts their DAC, video processor, transformer type, shielding, etc. there is NOTHING about anything for this model. On the other hand, this is a brand that sells Marantz pre-pro on their on website. That shows how much faith they (don't) have with their own product offering.

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post #100 of 508 Old 11-25-2012, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Every manufacturer boasts their DAC, video processor, transformer type, shielding, etc. there is NOTHING about anything for this model. On the other hand, this is a brand that sells Marantz pre-pro on their on website. That shows how much faith they (don't) have with their own product offering.

Geez....did someone from Outlaw piss in your Cheerios or something?
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post #101 of 508 Old 11-25-2012, 11:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by BobL View Post

I'm more interest in the analog components and circuitry. A decent inexpensive DAC with good analog circuitry will sound better than a great DAC with lower cost analog circuitry. I'm guessing that's why they haven't advertised that they use a given model DAC. Ideally, you want both but I wouldn't expect the world for $549, although for $200 I'm sure you can beat it:p:rolleyes:

For me, this is why people who are wildly excited or scoffing at the 975 are both premature.

We have no idea what it sounds like yet, and that is the bottom line. If it ends up having the SQ of a 200 receiver then it will not sell as word gets out about it. But if the 549 asking price is to pay for a decent analog section and respectable DACs, etc, and if the thing sounds in line with past Outlaw products, then for those wanting SQ it will be an option. Any budget AVR I've heard is lacking in this department.

Apparently there are 2 reviews coming up soon for the 975. One is going up Monday at the hometheaterreview. There is something actually right now at the audioholics site. It's a 'preview' though, so it only goes so far.
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post #102 of 508 Old 11-25-2012, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

How about YOU quit putting words in my mouth. At $500 price range, it's not about sound quality, it's about value. If you want sound quality you won't be cheap in buying a $500 pre-pro and buy a pre-pro starting at around $2000 MSRP and up. rolleyes.gif

LMAO.... I get it now.
Maybe we should tell people to run out and buy a Bose set-up for $2000 since money is the driver for a devices sound capabilities. Last I knew, there were Bose configurations for $2000. Why don’t you endorse Bose…?
I’ll leave your comment that sound quality doesn’t matter. It speaks loudly on my behalf… wink.gif
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Every manufacturer boasts their DAC, video processor, transformer type, shielding, etc. there is NOTHING about anything for this model. On the other hand, this is a brand that sells Marantz pre-pro on their on website. That shows how much faith they (don't) have with their own product offering.

In Outlaws defense, maybe they are just a company that wanted to make money.
Imagine that eh…
I think it is clear that you have an agenda.
Let’s see how Outlaw has implemented those, as you put it, $150 receiver parts into the 975. Let’s hear some reviews from people, professional and non-professional.
Until we have some solid feedback, posts like yours above are way out of line.

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post #103 of 508 Old 11-25-2012, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

For me, this is why people who are wildly excited or scoffing at the 975 are both premature.
We have no idea what it sounds like yet, and that is the bottom line. If it ends up having the SQ of a 200 receiver then it will not sell as word gets out about it. But if the 549 asking price is to pay for a decent analog section and respectable DACs, etc, and if the thing sounds in line with past Outlaw products, then for those wanting SQ it will be an option. Any budget AVR I've heard is lacking in this department.
Apparently there are 2 reviews coming up soon for the 975. One is going up Monday at the hometheaterreview. There is something actually right now at the audioholics site. It's a 'preview' though, so it only goes so far.

+1...!

Sums up my opinion exactly.
Lets wait until a good pool of reveiws have come in and we'll see.

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post #104 of 508 Old 11-25-2012, 12:19 PM
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LMAO.... I get it now.
Maybe we should tell people to run out and buy a Bose set-up for $2000 since money is the driver for a devices sound capabilities. Last I knew, there were Bose configurations for $2000. Why don’t you endorse Bose…?
I’ll leave your comment that sound quality doesn’t matter. It speaks loudly on my behalf… wink.gif
In Outlaws defense, maybe they are just a company that wanted to make money.
Imagine that eh…
I think it is clear that you have an agenda.
Let’s see how Outlaw has implemented those, as you put it, $150 receiver parts into the 975. Let’s hear some reviews from people, professional and non-professional.
Until we have some solid feedback, posts like yours above are way out of line.

Once again you put YOUR words into MY mouth.

I never said that SQ doesn't matter. I said that SQ doesn't matter for entry level stuff and if you want good sound quality you'll need to spend $2k MSRP on a PRE-PRO.

You're the one who twisted my words into SQ doesn't matter and buying Bose. Who is the one with the agenda here? biggrin.gif

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post #105 of 508 Old 11-25-2012, 12:21 PM
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Oh, and as far as company wants to make money... I can't recall the last time Pioneer sells Marantz product to make money, or Denon sells Krell to make money. rolleyes.gif

Keep twisting words... It makes you sound more and more like you're affiliated with Outlaw.

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post #106 of 508 Old 11-25-2012, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

For me, this is why people who are wildly excited or scoffing at the 975 are both premature.
We have no idea what it sounds like yet, and that is the bottom line. If it ends up having the SQ of a 200 receiver then it will not sell as word gets out about it. But if the 549 asking price is to pay for a decent analog section and respectable DACs, etc, and if the thing sounds in line with past Outlaw products, then for those wanting SQ it will be an option. Any budget AVR I've heard is lacking in this department.
.

I don't need to hear it to know it will sound like crap. Analog section? ANALOG SECTION???
We now live in a digital age where just near everything is in digital. Music? Digital. Video? Digital. Video stays digital. Sound? Circuits break it down into analog, but with average to better equipment, you won't hear a difference in the different brands. Sure, there will be those who think they can, but they are more likely to be the people who spend $500 on a pair of rca cables or fancy power plug, refusing to acknowledge what a A/B test is.
The biggest factor in sound quality will be the room correction circuitry, not the quality of the phono preamp, DAC or the aesthetic appeal of an "Outlaw" sticker, it will be the circuit that maximizes the speakers.
Sound wise, it won't be any different than taking their old 1050 receiver an adding one extra output channel and removing the amplifier section. Asdk any 4311 owner what they think makes difference in its excellent sound and they won't say the quality of the amps, analog section, etc, no they will say one thing: Audessey XT32 sound processing/room correction.
I understand that Outlaw is a company wanting to make $, but is there really a market for a $550 preamp that lacks room correction? I have yet to read a post from someone saying something like "I wish someone would take a $300 receiver, rip the amp out of it, remove the room correction in it and resell it for $550!"
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post #107 of 508 Old 11-25-2012, 01:17 PM
 
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I don't need to hear it to know it will sound like crap. Analog section? ANALOG SECTION???
We now live in a digital age where just near everything is in digital. Music? Digital. Video? Digital. Video stays digital. Sound? Circuits break it down into analog, but with average to better equipment, you won't hear a difference in the different brands. Sure, there will be those who think they can, but they are more likely to be the people who spend $500 on a pair of rca cables or fancy power plug, refusing to acknowledge what a A/B test is.
The biggest factor in sound quality will be the room correction circuitry, not the quality of the phono preamp, DAC or the aesthetic appeal of an "Outlaw" sticker, it will be the circuit that maximizes the speakers.
Sound wise, it won't be any different than taking their old 1050 receiver an adding one extra output channel and removing the amplifier section. Asdk any 4311 owner what they think makes difference in its excellent sound and they won't say the quality of the amps, analog section, etc, no they will say one thing: Audessey XT32 sound processing/room correction.
I understand that Outlaw is a company wanting to make $, but is there really a market for a $550 preamp that lacks room correction? I have yet to read a post from someone saying something like "I wish someone would take a $300 receiver, rip the amp out of it, remove the room correction in it and resell it for $550!"

Well of course everything is in digital. That goes without saying. But how does the digital 1's and 0's get to your speakers? Each section or component handles, and therefore affects the end result, the sound. Same with the analog section. My Oppo 95 has an analog section that rivals those of components costing 2 to 3 times as much, and it shows in the end result. If you do everything else right, but have a crappy analog section, the SQ will be lacking. And since this unit has no room correction, then the digital domain has less to do with how it will sound.

Look, the 975 is below the level of component that you would be interested in, and that is fine. I'm in the same boat, I'm considering units costing over 2000. But it wasn't designed for us. Can you understand that? Of course someone who drives BMW's is going to scoff at a KIA. But will the KIA be able to serve it's market segment any less because of the rich scoffer?

This unit leans heavy towards legacy inputs, another reason why you would scoff. But what about the guy who keeps his older gear for longer? I don't have anything in use older than 4 yrs old in my theater system, and 3 yrs old in my 2 channel system. But I don't think I am typical. There are some who still use their old DVD player, and maybe even VCR. To have a unit that can work with that and maybe even video process it, something the 975 can do, is an option for some.
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post #108 of 508 Old 11-25-2012, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Once again you put YOUR words into MY mouth.
I never said that SQ doesn't matter. I said that SQ doesn't matter for entry level stuff and if you want good sound quality you'll need to spend $2k MSRP on a PRE-PRO.
You're the one who twisted my words into SQ doesn't matter and buying Bose. Who is the one with the agenda here? biggrin.gif

LMAO... so you think that someone who is purchasing a $500 receiver or pre-pro is not concerned with sound quality...?
What makes $2000 the magic price point? Is it because what you own cost $2000?
I think you should tell that to all those people posting on this site ‘looking for advice on a $500 processor.’
Tell them they are wasting their time... tell them to pick up a HT in a box and be done with it.

Personally, I'm excited about the Outlaw 975.
You yourself say there is nothing that sounds good at this level.
What if Outlaw delivers? I think it'd be great to see another entry level piece break yet another price barrier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post

Oh, and as far as company wants to make money... I can't recall the last time Pioneer sells Marantz product to make money, or Denon sells Krell to make money. rolleyes.gif
Keep twisting words... It makes you sound more and more like you're affiliated with Outlaw.

Ha... LMAO...
Pioneer, Maranz and Denon a major corporations. They are not small companies like Outlaw, Emotiva or even the now defunct AV123. Guess where I bought my Denon 3805 and at the time, Denon 2910 DVD player? AV123. Bottom line... it's harder for the little guys to compete... doesn't mean they can't, but sometimes they have to do what ever they can to make a buck. I don't see it as a negartive.
and as far as me being affiliated with Outlaw, that's to funny... that's why I owned a Denon 3805 until just this summer when I bought an Emotiva UMC-1.
I do own an Outlaw amp. But I have no allegiance with Outlaw. My next amp (if I ever get another) may just be an Emotiva or some other amp.

Lets sit back... wait a month or so. Hear some reveiws and not get cought up in the belief that a processor must cost $2000 to sound good.

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post #109 of 508 Old 11-25-2012, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Well of course everything is in digital. That goes without saying. But how does the digital 1's and 0's get to your speakers? Each section or component handles, and therefore affects the end result, the sound. Same with the analog section. My Oppo 95 has an analog section that rivals those of components costing 2 to 3 times as much, and it shows in the end result. If you do everything else right, but have a crappy analog section, the SQ will be lacking. And since this unit has no room correction, then the digital domain has less to do with how it will sound.
Look, the 975 is below the level of component that you would be interested in, and that is fine. I'm in the same boat, I'm considering units costing over 2000. But it wasn't designed for us. Can you understand that? Of course someone who drives BMW's is going to scoff at a KIA. But will the KIA be able to serve it's market segment any less because of the rich scoffer?
This unit leans heavy towards legacy inputs, another reason why you would scoff. But what about the guy who keeps his older gear for longer? I don't have anything in use older than 4 yrs old in my theater system, and 3 yrs old in my 2 channel system. But I don't think I am typical. There are some who still use their old DVD player, and maybe even VCR. To have a unit that can work with that and maybe even video process it, something the 975 can do, is an option for some.

+1 again runnin' biggrin.gif

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post #110 of 508 Old 11-25-2012, 03:55 PM
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Trying to get back on course with this thread and stop all the mudslingging, does anyone know what dacs are in the 975 ?

likely audibly transparent ones... like any piece of competently designed equipment... "competently designed " starts at a very low price.. wink.gif

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post #111 of 508 Old 11-25-2012, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by suffolk112000 View Post


Pioneer, Maranz and Denon a major corporations. They are not small companies like Outlaw, Emotiva or even the now defunct AV123. Guess where I bought my Denon 3805 and at the time, Denon 2910 DVD player? AV123. Bottom line... it's harder for the little guys to compete... doesn't mean they can't, but sometimes they have to do what ever they can to make a buck. I don't see it as a negartive.
and as far as me being affiliated with Outlaw, that's to funny... that's why I owned a Denon 3805 until just this summer when I bought an Emotiva UMC-1.
I do own an Outlaw amp. But I have no allegiance with Outlaw. My next amp (if I ever get another) may just be an Emotiva or some other amp.
Lets sit back... wait a month or so. Hear some reveiws and not get cought up in the belief that a processor must cost $2000 to sound good.

I don't see Emotiva selling Marantz peoduct, I don't see SVS selling Velodyne product, I don't see Oppo selling Sony player, I don't see... Oh you know, the list goes on with the exception of Outlaw.

PS: I don't own a $2k pre-pro. But I've installed and calibrate enough theatres both home and commercial to know that quality costs money (although money does NOT necessarily means good quality.)

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post #112 of 508 Old 11-26-2012, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by suffolk112000 View Post

CWT, I truly believe some people are simply more interested in whether they can hook their iPod up to their processor than they are with the sonic capabilities of the unit.
To those that want all the bells and whistles, look to the Integra’s. They have a lot of the bells and whistles you crave, but they also come with a price.
Bottom line, nothing is for free.
Me personally, I’d rather not have a video processor on a pre-pro. If I want a video processor, I’d more than likely get the earlier mentioned DVDO.

Couldnt agree more mate ; I think it says something about a ce when they implement a dsp mode to try and make mp3 sound 1/2 decent ; dont want to pay for that particularly smile.gif
Ime looking at a 200 as a stepping stone to a xmc1 which is more likely to have those important codecs like I mentioned . An integra like a 80.3 will be more than double the price of a xmc1 or even a rmc1 down here ; not interested especially considering the emo trade up program wink.gif

Funny you mention the vp ; have a duo already ; it all fits like a glove .. if the xmc1 gets a retrofit 2nd hdmi output though its days are numbered eek.gif
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post #113 of 508 Old 11-26-2012, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Well of course everything is in digital. That goes without saying. But how does the digital 1's and 0's get to your speakers? Each section or component handles, and therefore affects the end result, the sound. Same with the analog section.

If you were to a/b my old Pioneer to this Outlaw pre 975, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference- you really wouldn't. You can say all kinds of nonsense about the sound quality of your Oppo, but if the receiver is doing the conversion, it is all moot. Switch on the mcaac for the pioneer and if asked which sounded better, you'd go for the Pioneer.
Once those 0's and 1's are converted, they have to be properly equalized then sent through a good amplifier, oh -which the Outlaw also lacks.
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post #114 of 508 Old 11-26-2012, 08:40 AM
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I haven't been following the Model 975 as closely as I'd planned to, but I did see this HTR review showed up this morning - may be of interest to folks following this thread.

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post #115 of 508 Old 11-26-2012, 08:57 AM
 
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Speaking of the Outlaw's sound quality, there's a just completed review up on home theater review. I see Gonk has it too.




DClark, I do not 'let the receiver' touch the Oppo's signal. Actually, the 95 is connected directly to my 2 channel amp and the results are really quite good. Look, all I am saying with the Outlaw is that you have no idea what the Outlaw sounds like and neither do I, so to insist that you do seems pointless. You can say that it costs to much. You can say that it doesn't have room correction, and you'd be right all along. And I have my doubts about what it sounds like. But both Emotiva and Outlaw seem to think that there is a market for this new type of processor, so maybe they know something we don't.

The reviewer has some good points, like saying that room correction removes that unique sound that made you fall in love with your speakers in the first place. Or that AVRs and current processors are so loaded with features we never use, or that are already in other components in our systems. The market will either accept this new type of processor or not, time will tell.
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post #116 of 508 Old 11-26-2012, 12:32 PM
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The HTR reviewer also mention things that are lacking... The exact same complain I've mentioned from the get go
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First, I believe the Model 975 should have at least one more HDMI input, preferably two or three more; four would be cutting things close. I would also love to see an additional HDMI out, though I understand that I may be in the minority on this point. Also, I do wish the Model 975 had a USB input for computer audio or portable devices.
Despite my earlier explanation and objections to it, some may still want an onboard auto EQ solution, which the Model 975 isn't going to have nor offer any time in the future.

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post #117 of 508 Old 11-26-2012, 03:26 PM
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Does this unit process ota hd audio or is it just classic am/fm?

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post #118 of 508 Old 11-26-2012, 03:35 PM
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From the spec sheet, it doesn't have that either

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post #119 of 508 Old 11-27-2012, 08:52 AM
 
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The HTR reviewer also mention things that are lacking... The exact same complain I've mentioned from the get go

That's true, and you've repeatedly mentioned that. And you're right again, so if one needs/wants certain features then one shouldn't buy it. My question all along has been to wonder how it sounds. And among the comments in the review that positively covered the SQ was this
:
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The first thing I noted about the Model 975's performance in this acoustic-only track was the natural timbre, weight and inflection that were conveyed via the Outlaw. Believe it or not, on this track, Mraz's vocal performance via the Model 975 had more in common with a much higher-end AV preamp that I recently had on hand than that of my Integra, which was shocking, to say the least. The way in which the Model 975 resolved the minutest of details was awe-inspiring, if I'm honest, for I've heard many products, budget and cost-no-object, miss the mark with this track. The whole performance was just so silky smooth and analog-like that I found it difficult to reconcile at times.

He is impressed with the sonics of the unit and makes several more comments on it. So for someone who doesn't need or want the bells and whistles, this unit does deliver that critical component of good sound quality.
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post #120 of 508 Old 11-27-2012, 08:58 AM
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I haven't been following the Model 975 as closely as I'd planned to, but I did see this HTR review showed up this morning - may be of interest to folks following this thread.

Thanks for the link Gonk.
Looks like Andrew Robinson of Home Theater Review gave the little Outlaw 975 high praise… 5 out of 5 stars in all categories if I’m reading the correctly.
Looks like Andrew had pretty much the same things to say about the lack of room correction as I did, which indicates that there will be a spot in the HT market for the 975.

Looks like it’s Outlaw 1, naysayers 0… . (those with an obvious agenda) biggrin.gif

I mean the only things Andrew had moderate issues with was the remote, which will be getting replaced in the future so that is a non-issue and the lack of more than 4 HDMI outputs. But what does one expect for $500? If you need more HDMI outputs, I’m sure Monoprice makes great HDMI switchers.

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