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post #241 of 492 Old 01-04-2013, 09:31 AM
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I don't have a bone to pick with either company and have not bought from either one. I gotta wonder about that statement-is he implying the 975 doesn't have BM on hdmi sources? What hi-res codecs is he talking about? I find it hard to believe someone sophisticated enough to own a Lexicon wouldn't have noticed if there was no BM on lossless formats-audiophl states merely that it sounds good. Again, I have no prior knowledge of the integrity of either company but for emotivia to state such a vague negative comment and then prevent anyone from contradicting their statement is,,,well, we all know what it is.

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post #242 of 492 Old 01-04-2013, 12:42 PM
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Here is more information on the possible issue with the 975 that is being discussed. Below is from a review of the Emotiva UMC-200 on Audioholics. If this information is accurate it makes one wonder why Outlaw went with only one DSP.

Outlaw 975 Sampling Rate Support

Further, because the Outlaw 975 has only one DSP, it offers limited functionality with a Dolby TrueHD bitstream or LPCM above a 96kHz sampling rate and 48kHz for DTS-HD via HDMI. You will have to switch your Blu-ray player to LPCM as a workaround if you go the Outlaw route. This is NOT an issue for the Emotiva UMC-200 since it employs two Cirrus DSPs. More horsepower and more MIPS are essential to fully support the highest sampling rates offered from HD audio formats while simultaneously supporting level control, digital delay and bass management.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/processors/umc-200-a-v-processor/umc-200-introduction

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post #243 of 492 Old 01-04-2013, 05:47 PM
 
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I hit your link but couldn't find that paragraph though I know it's there somewhere. If true that might be a limitation of the 975. What I find odd is why it's in a review of the UMC-200. I gave Audioholics review of the 975 another look, but realized they only covered it in a "preview". The UMC-200 got a preview, then a review. They've also covered the XDA-2, XPR-1, XPR-2, XPR-5 UPA-500, Pro Airmotiv 5, all since the summer. 7 products from one company since last summer? And they drop in criticism of the Outlaw model in the middle of a UMC-200 review, its main competition. Doesn't seem very even handed.
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post #244 of 492 Old 01-04-2013, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

I hit your link but couldn't find that paragraph though I know it's there somewhere. If true that might be a limitation of the 975. What I find odd is why it's in a review of the UMC-200. I gave Audioholics review of the 975 another look, but realized they only covered it in a "preview". The UMC-200 got a preview, then a review. They've also covered the XDA-2, XPR-1, XPR-2, XPR-5 UPA-500, Pro Airmotiv 5, all since the summer. 7 products from one company since last summer? And they drop in criticism of the Outlaw model in the middle of a UMC-200 review, its main competition. Doesn't seem very even handed.

I looked back at the Audioholics review of the UMC-200 and the quote about the 975 is actually not mentioned in the review. That quote comes from post #15 in this thread from the Audioholics forum. As far as Audioholics reviewing more Emotiva gear than Outlaw gear the reason for that is pretty obvious. If you look at the number of components that Emotiva has released recently to those that Outlaw has that would be the reason IMO.

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post #245 of 492 Old 01-04-2013, 10:18 PM
 
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I wasn't comparing the number of Emotiva pieces to Outlaw.

I was observing the number of Emotiva models that Audioholics has done in 7 months period. I've never seen one audio site ever do even 3 models from one company in that short a time. How many Denon have they done? How many Parasound? How many NAD? It begs the question, why does Emotiva get all the attention, and releasing several products since the summer can't be the reason since several companies have released several. Anyway, I suppose I'm off topic, but thanks for the thoughts.
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post #246 of 492 Old 01-05-2013, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

I wasn't comparing the number of Emotiva pieces to Outlaw.
I was observing the number of Emotiva models that Audioholics has done in 7 months period. I've never seen one audio site ever do even 3 models from one company in that short a time. How many Denon have they done? How many Parasound? How many NAD? It begs the question, why does Emotiva get all the attention, and releasing several products since the summer can't be the reason since several companies have released several. Anyway, I suppose I'm off topic, but thanks for the thoughts.

I misunderstood your point. I would have to agree with you there. Does Emotiva do a lot of advertising on Audioholics? That could be the reason or it could be that Emotiva offers quality components at very good prices.

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post #247 of 492 Old 01-05-2013, 08:01 AM
 
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So if a company has quality components and good pricing they should get preferential treatment? I do not concur. And there are several companies that could be described this way. You may see this as fair and evenhanded, but I can't see it that way.
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post #248 of 492 Old 01-05-2013, 08:12 AM
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So what are we saying exactly? The 975 doesn't do BM with hi-res sources? Or just doesn't do as good a job as the UMC-200? Since the only way to play those codecs is through hdmi that sounds like a huge flaw in the design. And how could anyone review the 975 and not notice that? What am I missing here?

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post #249 of 492 Old 01-05-2013, 10:01 AM
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So what are we saying exactly? The 975 doesn't do BM with hi-res sources? Or just doesn't do as good a job as the UMC-200? Since the only way to play those codecs is through hdmi that sounds like a huge flaw in the design. And how could anyone review the 975 and not notice that? What am I missing here?

When I reviewed the 975, my ears didn't detect any issues with this at all. I felt the 975 was a grand bargain at $549, but it's not marketed for "high end" customers. It's an entry level product for anyone wanting to move to separates. Frankly, I thought it sounded outstanding and everyone I had over to my house during my audition agreed. One friend of mine with a very high-end system was blown-away by the price/value proposition the piece offers and I totally agree with him in that regard.
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post #250 of 492 Old 01-05-2013, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

So if a company has quality components and good pricing they should get preferential treatment? I do not concur. And there are several companies that could be described this way. You may see this as fair and evenhanded, but I can't see it that way.

I never said that Emotiva should get preferential treatment. I also did not say that I thought Audioholics selection of the components was fair and evenhanded.

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post #251 of 492 Old 01-05-2013, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

When I reviewed the 975, my ears didn't detect any issues with this at all. I felt the 975 was a grand bargain at $549, but it's not marketed for "high end" customers. It's an entry level product for anyone wanting to move to separates. Frankly, I thought it sounded outstanding and everyone I had over to my house during my audition agreed. One friend of mine with a very high-end system was blown-away by the price/value proposition the piece offers and I totally agree with him in that regard.

As I've stated, I'm really close to buying this unit. The only thing holding me back now is the confusion around this hi-res audio issue. I accept its a great bargain but still, BM is not what I'd call "high end". My most critical listening is two channel audio so maybe this will still work for me. But I would like some clarification on the issue

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I suggest phoning Outlaw directly, describing your concerns. I'm sure they will be able to explain whatever the limitations are.
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post #253 of 492 Old 01-05-2013, 12:23 PM
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I suggest phoning Outlaw directly, describing your concerns. I'm sure they will be able to explain whatever the limitations are.

Exactly. My interactions with the company have been "Oppo-like" in their responses and professionalism.

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post #254 of 492 Old 01-05-2013, 12:32 PM
 
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Yep, when I bought a 7125, I thought I was having issues with it, but it turned out to be me. Very knowledgeable and patient as they worked me through my issue.
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post #255 of 492 Old 01-05-2013, 02:25 PM
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Interesting thoughts on the 975's bass management system. I guess the only way to really tell would be to find a test disc with DTS Master Audio/Dolby HD test tones < 80hz (975's lowest crossover frequency) on all channels and see if the 975 properly routed the audio from any channel to the subwoofer DAC. I have run full range Snell Acoustic towers on all channels (save for center and sub of course) in my listening room/theater for years and I have never heard a movie mix with content at ~120hz or lower in anything but the front/sub channels. I would think bass management would be a must have regardless of the input source for any properly engineered processor. Imagine the calls a manufacture would get from people (even commercial cinema owners) if there bandwidth limited side/surround speakers started rattling on the walls from some special effect explosion mixed to the side/rear channels. smile.gif

To throw a monkey wrench in here... anyone know if the 975 will decode DSD from SACD? The 975 makes some truly wonderful Red Book music but wondered if buying the handful of SACDs I want is worth it.

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To throw a monkey wrench in here... anyone know if the 975 will decode DSD from SACD? The 975 makes some truly wonderful Red Book music but wondered if buying the handful of SACDs I want is worth it.

I would doubt the 975 has the capability to decode DSD. But I would not let that stop you from buying any SACDs. I use the PCM setting with my Oppo 103 to my Denon 4311 for all stereo and multichannel SACDs. I did extensive testing of stereo SACDs using the DSD and PCM settings with different gear recently. In all honesty I did not notice any noticable SQ differences between the two settings.

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I would doubt the 975 has the capability to decode DSD. But I would not let that stop you from buying any SACDs. I use the PCM setting with my Oppo 103 to my Denon 4311 for all stereo and multichannel SACDs. I did extensive testing of stereo SACDs using the DSD and PCM settings with different gear recently. In all honesty I did not notice any noticable SQ differences between the two settings.
Bill

I've come to the same conclusion over the years as well. Maybe my hearing isn't good enough.

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post #258 of 492 Old 01-05-2013, 04:04 PM
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BM???
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post #259 of 492 Old 01-05-2013, 04:43 PM
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Bass Management is what I think they are referring to.
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post #260 of 492 Old 01-06-2013, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

I suggest phoning Outlaw directly, describing your concerns. I'm sure they will be able to explain whatever the limitations are.

I might end up doing that. I've tried to join their site so I could ask on their forum but so far haven't heard from them...is there usually a delay in activating an account? Its been at least 48 hours. It was mentioned earlier in this thread that someone had a similiar situation.

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Bass Management is what I think they are referring to.
Thank you! I was gonna' snag one now, but I think I will sit on the fence for awhile and watch it play out!
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The display on the 975 looks like an alarm clock circa 1987, and not in a cool "retro" way. I know it's not a huge deal, but my first Sony CD player I got in 89 had a better display. There is no excuse for using that to cut down on their cost, that was my peeve.

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post #263 of 492 Old 01-06-2013, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lonwolf615 View Post

So what are we saying exactly? The 975 doesn't do BM with hi-res sources? Or just doesn't do as good a job as the UMC-200? Since the only way to play those codecs is through hdmi that sounds like a huge flaw in the design. And how could anyone review the 975 and not notice that? What am I missing here?

This emotiva statement can be taken 2 ways ; you need to consider blurays that require major processing power like the 24/192fs Akira or 2l trondheime solistene discs . Chances are the the 975 may downrez these to 24/96 multichannel in order to apply bass management . Many other avrs for example with just the one chipset do similar .

I think this is more likely and what Dan was alluding to ; personally Ime glad the info is out there ; its good to know before purchase never mind the source ; now somebody try Akira and see what the readout says smile.gif Most bd movies are 16/48 or 24/48 or 24/96 for concerts so this is all a storm in a teacup ;just nice to have extra processing power for future codecs cool.gif
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The display on the 975 looks like an alarm clock circa 1987, and not in a cool "retro" way. I know it's not a huge deal, but my first Sony CD player I got in 89 had a better display. There is no excuse for using that to cut down on their cost, that was my peeve.

But it's hard to say what decisions they faced and what costs they had to deal with. Personally, I'll never buy this or the entry level model from Emotiva, they are both too bare bones. I need Audyssey XT32 or something like it, and at least some of flexibility found in a mid level AVR. But I want analog performance as well, and I'm not sure where I'll end up. I'll make do with my Onkyo 876 for another year and see what's happening then.
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But I want analog performance as well, and I'm not sure where I'll end up. I'll make do with my Onkyo 876 for another year and see what's happening then.

Buy a preamp with HT Bypass like the Parasound 2100. That will give you excellent analog performance and you can keep the 876 for HT.

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, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

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Buy a preamp with HT Bypass like the Parasound 2100. That will give you excellent analog performance and you can keep the 876 for HT.
Bill
+1 .
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Buy a preamp with HT Bypass like the Parasound 2100. That will give you excellent analog performance and you can keep the 876 for HT.
Bill

But unfortunately, that won't give me XT32, 3D or internet radio. It also won't remove that annoying 8 second delay of losing signal every time I change HDMI sources. I'd also like to not have to employ 2 cooling fans for the unit or the 12 volt trigger work-around. It's been a good unit for the 995 I paid, but I've outgrown it I guess.
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post #268 of 492 Old 01-07-2013, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by cwt View Post

This emotiva statement can be taken 2 ways ; you need to consider blurays that require major processing power like the 24/192fs Akira or 2l trondheime solistene discs . Chances are the the 975 may downrez these to 24/96 multichannel in order to apply bass management . Many other avrs for example with just the one chipset do similar .
I think this is more likely and what Dan was alluding to ; personally Ime glad the info is out there ; its good to know before purchase never mind the source ; now somebody try Akira and see what the readout says smile.gif Most bd movies are 16/48 or 24/48 or 24/96 for concerts so this is all a storm in a teacup ;just nice to have extra processing power for future codecs cool.gif


thanks colin, that makes sense. You're right, it is good to know, but I can't help feeling now that the Emo quote is vaguely misleading.It is a plus that the 200 has two chips of course, but weighed against other factors I'm still leaning towards the outlaw,

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post #269 of 492 Old 01-07-2013, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

But unfortunately, that won't give me XT32, 3D or internet radio. It also won't remove that annoying 8 second delay of losing signal every time I change HDMI sources. I'd also like to not have to employ 2 cooling fans for the unit or the 12 volt trigger work-around. It's been a good unit for the 995 I paid, but I've outgrown it I guess.

Well you didn't mention that you needed or wanted all those additional features earlier wink.gif. I would suggest AVRs from Onkyo and Denon as they will give you all those features and more smile.gif.

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, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

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post #270 of 492 Old 01-07-2013, 03:13 PM
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Thank you! I was gonna' snag one now, but I think I will sit on the fence for awhile and watch it play out!

Me too... I have been waiting forever to integrate home theater back into my system. I have a HT pasthough on my preamp and have a multi-channel amp and surrounds, and center sitting in the closet. I'm not desperate but am getting tired of waiting for a processor that works as advertised. At the price I might even try them side by side.

My father in law is trying a 975 and so far so good..... He has an issue with his Boxee Box handshake but is working to solve it. I will be over there this weekend to hopefully correct and put it through it's paces.
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