9.1 or 11.1... Both heights and wides a must. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 08-12-2012, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm looking to upgrade my old yamaha receiver in the next few months and must say that reading specs and forums sure gets confusing. Sometimes I can't even get accurate info on manufacturers sites.

I've always run my Yamaha receivers with their "presence" channel. I think it brings a lot of extra space and immersion to a soundtrack. In my next receiver I'd like to have both heights and wides. They have to be able to run simultaneously. I have an Emotiva XPA5 so an additional power amp is not a problem. Ideally, I'd love an 11.1 system so I can have backs also, but I believe that's only available in the yet to be released Onkyo TX-NR5010 and TX-NR3010? Both of those are out of my price range.

It seems that I'll read something about a model that outputs heights and wides, and after digging deeper I, more often than not, find out that they can not be output simultaneously. Very frustrating! And I wonder sometimes with the conflicting info who to believe.

So my question is: What receivers are there that have Audyssey DSX and/or DTS Neo:X, that are definitively able to output both height and wide channels simultaneously?

I also don't have a problem buying used equipment so anything that fits the bill that's been made in the last couple years is acceptable.

Thanks for any info!
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post #2 of 25 Old 08-12-2012, 01:44 PM
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The Denon 4311CI is a 9.2 AVR and can do both FH/FW with 5.2 in the main zone, although as it's on clearance is becoming more difficult to find as it's replacement, the 4520CI will be released in Sep. Give either AV Science sales or Electronics Expo a "call" for the best price from an authorized reseller.

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post #3 of 25 Old 08-12-2012, 01:46 PM
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Probably gonna have to look at the onkyo xx10 models and the upcoming denon 4520 if you want both heights and wides. All very pricey. Without even trying heights, and from what other forum members are saying, wides seem to be a whole lot better. I think heights would be unnecessary in my setup as anything overhead has been very convincing with wides. Master and commander was a pleasant surprise after watching it again with my recent new setup. The shipmates running on deck when the scene was below the deck was like somebody running upstairs in my apartment. I am running an onkyo 3009 with Polk audio monitor 70s mains, monitor 60s wides, no surrounds and two subs. Awesome 3.2 setup.

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post #4 of 25 Old 08-12-2012, 02:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The Denon 4311CI is a 9.2 AVR and can do both FH/FW with 5.2 in the main zone, although as it's on clearance is becoming more difficult to find as it's replacement, the 4520CI will be released in Sep. Give either AV Science sales or Electronics Expo a "call" for the best price from an authorized reseller.

Yeah the 4311 is one I've been looking at. You can get them for about $1400 on eBay. Probably will drop when it's discontinued. Not gonna buy until the fall anyway. Thanks for your input.
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post #5 of 25 Old 08-12-2012, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pukemon View Post

Probably gonna have to look at the onkyo xx10 models and the upcoming denon 4520 if you want both heights and wides. All very pricey. Without even trying heights, and from what other forum members are saying, wides seem to be a whole lot better. I think heights would be unnecessary in my setup as anything overhead has been very convincing with wides. Master and commander was a pleasant surprise after watching it again with my recent new setup. The shipmates running on deck when the scene was below the deck was like somebody running upstairs in my apartment. I am running an onkyo 3009 with Polk audio monitor 70s mains, monitor 60s wides, no surrounds and two subs. Awesome 3.2 setup.
butter and jelly please.

I'm not so sure about that. Maybe. The "presence" speakers for both my Yamahas were mounted high and wide. I don't want to get another receiver and wonder what might have been...

Thanks for the reply.
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post #6 of 25 Old 08-12-2012, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Can anyone confirm the Onkyo TX-NR1009 can play heights and wides simultaneously?
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post #7 of 25 Old 08-12-2012, 04:22 PM
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Since you already have a Yamaha, have you looked at the new models or are you wanting to get something specific to the Audyssey system? The RX-A3020 does have 11.2 capability with the unit providing power for 9 channels.

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post #8 of 25 Old 08-12-2012, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ocezam View Post

Yeah the 4311 is one I've been looking at. You can get them for about $1400 on eBay. Probably will drop when it's discontinued. Not gonna buy until the fall anyway. Thanks for your input.
As stated by JDS call the authorized dealers, better deal than eBay and full factory warranty. Check the deals section for the thread.
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post #9 of 25 Old 08-13-2012, 09:44 AM
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Yes the Onkyo 1009 can do this but only produces 9-channels at once. For a 9-ch setup on the 1009 you get to choose between 3 configurations:
- FH + FW
- FH + RS
- FW + RS
(FH=front height, FW=front wide, RS=rear surround)

Note: on the 1009 all 11 speakers can be hooked up and calibrated, and switching between those 3 options is a simple matter of hitting the "Speaker Layout" button on the remote. I don't believe the 3009/5009 allow this: they require speaker wires to be switched at the receiver in order to change configurations. But someone with a 3009/5009 can confirm or deny.
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post #10 of 25 Old 08-13-2012, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrennem View Post

Yes the Onkyo 1009 can do this but only produces 9-channels at once. For a 9-ch setup on the 1009 you get to choose between 3 configurations:
- FH + FW
- FH + RS
- FW + RS
(FH=front height, FW=front wide, RS=rear surround)
Note: on the 1009 all 11 speakers can be hooked up and calibrated, and switching between those 3 options is a simple matter of hitting the "Speaker Layout" button on the remote. I don't believe the 3009/5009 allow this: they require speaker wires to be switched at the receiver in order to change configurations. But someone with a 3009/5009 can confirm or deny.


I was unaware that the 1009 can do the 3 configs without re-wiring.  I have a 3009 and can confirm that it can't be done that simply.  With a 3009/5009 you can wire and select easily btwn FW/RS or FH/RS, but not FW/FH.  To do that, you need to manually change the speaker wiring config as the signal outputs change for some reason.  Very inconvenient if you have a full 11.1 setup as I do.  I have ended up leaving it wired for FW/FH as that sounds best to me, but miss using my nice rear surrounds.  The side surrounds do a nice job and I don't really miss any rear enveloping sounds, but the dedicated rears are permanently mounted and I would like to add them in.


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post #11 of 25 Old 08-13-2012, 11:11 AM
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While I would usually be the last person to suggest someone delay adding more speakers, I think it might be wise to wait until after CEDIA EXPO 2012 (September 5–8, 2012) to settle on any new speaker count|geometry for a Home Theater upgrade planned to last four or five years...?!

Why? There would seem to be no industry wide established path for progression beyond the 7.1 Standard speaker configuration, but rather a selection of somewhat conflicting 9.1|11.1 "upmix" offerings from Audyssey, DTS, Dolby, and Yamaha. However, "in the next few months", we are promised and|or expect (1) release of a Home Theater 9.1|10.1|11.1 discrete-and-upmix configuration from Auro-Technologies, (2) details of an 'unspecified speaker count, MDA based' discrete-and-upmix(?) system combining existing work from DTS and SRS planned for release in 2013|2014, (3) the possible release for sale of some Harman product that includes QLS upmixing to some 12.x configuration . . . and, lurking in the farther distance, (4) some kind of Home Theater product evolution from the Dolby Atmos 3D audio system. Things might be clearer or more confused after CEDIA . . . but either way, the outlook will likely be different!

My personal opinion? I suspect sometime soon that 14.1 might be the new 11.1...! eek.gifcool.gifbiggrin.gif
_

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post #12 of 25 Old 08-13-2012, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

While I would usually be the last person to suggest someone delay adding more speakers, I think it might be wise to wait until after CEDIA EXPO 2012 (September 5–8, 2012) to settle on any new speaker count|geometry for a Home Theater upgrade planned to last four or five years...?!
Why? There would seem to be no industry wide established path for progression beyond the 7.1 Standard speaker configuration, but rather a selection of somewhat conflicting 9.1|11.1 "upmix" offerings from Audyssey, DTS, Dolby, and Yamaha. However, "in the next few months", we are promised and|or expect (1) release of a Home Theater 9.1|10.1|11.1 discrete-and-upmix configuration from Auro-Technologies, (2) details of an 'unspecified speaker count, MDA based' discrete-and-upmix(?) system combining existing work from DTS and SRS planned for release in 2013|2014, (3) the possible release for sale of some Harman product that includes QLS upmixing to some 12.x configuration . . . and, lurking in the farther distance, (4) some kind of Home Theater product evolution from the Dolby Atmos 3D audio system. Things might be clearer or more confused after CEDIA . . . but either way, the outlook will likely be different!
My personal opinion? I suspect sometime soon that 14.1 might be the new 11.1...! eek.gifcool.gifbiggrin.gif
_

I wonder if Dolby will release an 11.1 version of their Atmos surround format? Maybe they could add 2 to 4 more height channels for the surround and surround back channels, bringing the total count to 13.1 and 15.1. Maybe they can add wide channels and corresponding height channels, bringing the total count to 17.1.

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post #13 of 25 Old 08-13-2012, 05:47 PM
 
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DTS already released Neo:X 11
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post #14 of 25 Old 08-13-2012, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flint350 View Post


I was unaware that the 1009 can do the 3 configs without re-wiring.  I have a 3009 and can confirm that it can't be done that simply.  With a 3009/5009 you can wire and select easily btwn FW/RS or FH/RS, but not FW/FH.  To do that, you need to manually change the speaker wiring config as the signal outputs change for some reason.  Very inconvenient if you have a full 11.1 setup as I do.  I have ended up leaving it wired for FW/FH as that sounds best to me, but miss using my nice rear surrounds.  The side surrounds do a nice job and I don't really miss any rear enveloping sounds, but the dedicated rears are permanently mounted and I would like to add them in.

Since the 1010 is cut back to 7-ch, I really think the 1009 is a steal if you can get it at closeout prices. Of course you can't do true 11-ch processing like the 3010 or 5010 but those are probably twice the price (or more) of a closeout 1009.
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post #15 of 25 Old 08-14-2012, 05:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AYColumbia View Post

Since you already have a Yamaha, have you looked at the new models or are you wanting to get something specific to the Audyssey system? The RX-A3020 does have 11.2 capability with the unit providing power for 9 channels.

I wasn't able to confirm this, but I'd guess the 2 extra channels beyond 9 are for "rear presence channels" like the old Yamaha Z11. If this were the case, I wouldn't be interested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flint350 View Post

I was unaware that the 1009 can do the 3 configs without re-wiring.  I have a 3009 and can confirm that it can't be done that simply.  With a 3009/5009 you can wire and select easily btwn FW/RS or FH/RS, but not FW/FH.  To do that, you need to manually change the speaker wiring config as the signal outputs change for some reason.  Very inconvenient if you have a full 11.1 setup as I do.  I have ended up leaving it wired for FW/FH as that sounds best to me, but miss using my nice rear surrounds.  The side surrounds do a nice job and I don't really miss any rear enveloping sounds, but the dedicated rears are permanently mounted and I would like to add them in.

This is good to hear. The 1009 was another one I was considering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post

While I would usually be the last person to suggest someone delay adding more speakers, I think it might be wise to wait until after CEDIA EXPO 2012 (September 5–8, 2012) to settle on any new speaker count|geometry for a Home Theater upgrade planned to last four or five years...?!
Why? There would seem to be no industry wide established path for progression beyond the 7.1 Standard speaker configuration, but rather a selection of somewhat conflicting 9.1|11.1 "upmix" offerings from Audyssey, DTS, Dolby, and Yamaha. However, "in the next few months", we are promised and|or expect (1) release of a Home Theater 9.1|10.1|11.1 discrete-and-upmix configuration from Auro-Technologies, (2) details of an 'unspecified speaker count, MDA based' discrete-and-upmix(?) system combining existing work from DTS and SRS planned for release in 2013|2014, (3) the possible release for sale of some Harman product that includes QLS upmixing to some 12.x configuration . . . and, lurking in the farther distance, (4) some kind of Home Theater product evolution from the Dolby Atmos 3D audio system. Things might be clearer or more confused after CEDIA . . . but either way, the outlook will likely be different!

My personal opinion? I suspect sometime soon that 14.1 might be the new 11.1...! eek.gifcool.gifbiggrin.gif
_

This all may be true, but like computers, if you wait for the next great thing, you'll never upgrade. I'd like a new receiver (new to me at least) in the next couple months. I'll look at the situation again in a couple years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrennem View Post

Since the 1010 is cut back to 7-ch, I really think the 1009 is a steal if you can get it at closeout prices. Of course you can't do true 11-ch processing like the 3010 or 5010 but those are probably twice the price (or more) of a closeout 1009.

The 1009 is at the top of my list. My only concern is all the bugs and glitches Onkyo seems to have had the past couple years.


Thanks for all the replies!
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post #16 of 25 Old 08-14-2012, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocezam View Post

This all may be true, but like computers, if you wait for the next great thing, you'll never upgrade. I'd like a new receiver (new to me at least) in the next couple months. I'll look at the situation again in a couple years.
Thanks for the feedback . . . but in fact I did only suggest that "it might be wise to wait until after CEDIA EXPO 2012 (September 5–8, 2012) to settle on any new speaker count|geometry for a Home Theater upgrade planned to last four or five years...?!" biggrin.gif

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post #17 of 25 Old 08-14-2012, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocezam View Post

Can anyone confirm the Onkyo TX-NR1009 can play heights and wides simultaneously?
I know anything Onkyo xx07 and xx08 cannot use both height and wides at the same time. Onkyo's 9.2 AVR's from the xx09 and xx10 do it. if I was on your budget, I'd look for a Denon 4311 though: not only does this the full 11 channels (with your XPA-5) but it has XT32.

Don't forget to add a 2nd sub. That should be the first addition after 5.1. XT32 will callibrate them independently...

Me, I will be saving up for the Marantz AV8801 which does 11.2. I already got the XPR-5 powerhouse! I might settle for three UPA-200 for the other six channels, though. One for the rears, one for the L Wide + L Height and one for the R Wide + R Height. This way I got optimal channel separation and I am sure 125 Watts is more than plenty for each of those channnels. Plus the speakers will be very efficient so the XPR-5 is completely over the top. Just could not resist.

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post #18 of 25 Old 08-29-2012, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post

I know anything Onkyo xx07 and xx08 cannot use both height and wides at the same time. Onkyo's 9.2 AVR's from the xx09 and xx10 do it. if I was on your budget, I'd look for a Denon 4311 though: not only does this the full 11 channels (with your XPA-5) but it has XT32.
Don't forget to add a 2nd sub. That should be the first addition after 5.1. XT32 will callibrate them independently...
Me, I will be saving up for the Marantz AV8801 which does 11.2. I already got the XPR-5 powerhouse! I might settle for three UPA-200 for the other six channels, though. One for the rears, one for the L Wide + L Height and one for the R Wide + R Height. This way I got optimal channel separation and I am sure 125 Watts is more than plenty for each of those channnels. Plus the speakers will be very efficient so the XPR-5 is completely over the top. Just could not resist.

Well I ended up getting a TX-NR3009 new for about $1300 shipped (One Call). It has XT32 which is why I chose it over the 1009. I could have got a 4311 refurb for about $100 less. The full 11 channel would have been nice, but it wouldn't have DTS Neo X, only Audyssey DSX and that won't matrix from a stereo source. The 3009 has both and I can experiment.

Should be here B4 the weekend... Can't wait!

Thanks for all the replies!!!
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post #19 of 25 Old 08-29-2012, 11:19 AM
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post #20 of 25 Old 08-29-2012, 02:44 PM
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post #21 of 25 Old 08-29-2012, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ocezam View Post

Well I ended up getting a TX-NR3009 new for about $1300 shipped (One Call). It has XT32 which is why I chose it over the 1009. I could have got a 4311 refurb for about $100 less. The full 11 channel would have been nice, but it wouldn't have DTS Neo X, only Audyssey DSX and that won't matrix from a stereo source. The 3009 has both and I can experiment.
Should be here B4 the weekend... Can't wait!
Thanks for all the replies!!!
Audyssey DSX will matrix from a 2-channel source. You just have to use PLIIx or Neo to matrix, then add DSX. Just FYI.

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post #22 of 25 Old 02-07-2013, 10:31 PM
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I have a NR1009...

Why people say its not a full 11.1 receiver? It can do 11.1 yes or no? How?

other question

I want with my 1009: Sub, LRC, SL,SR, FWs and FHs (that means 9.1) can I do FW and FH at the same time? Any real experience?

Thanks
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post #23 of 25 Old 02-09-2013, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majas View Post

I have a NR1009...

Why people say its not a full 11.1 receiver? It can do 11.1 yes or no? How?

other question

I want with my 1009: Sub, LRC, SL,SR, FWs and FHs (that means 9.1) can I do FW and FH at the same time? Any real experience?

Thanks

You can connect 11 channels to it, but only use 9 at a time, so technically it's not a true 11.1. Basically, in addition of L, C, R, SL, SR, you can use either FWL/R, FHL/R, or FWL/R and BSL/R; i.e. you can't use the combination of back surrounds with both the front wides and front highs, you have to chose back surround with front wides OR font high, or no back surrounds, but then you can use the front high. You can connect all 11 speakers and then use the speaker layout button on the remote to dictate which set up to use.

So your set up of using both FW and FH with surrounds will work just fine.

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post #24 of 25 Old 02-11-2013, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiojan View Post

You can connect 11 channels to it, but only use 9 at a time, so technically it's not a true 11.1. Basically, in addition of L, C, R, SL, SR, you can use either FWL/R, FHL/R, or FWL/R and BSL/R; i.e. you can't use the combination of back surrounds with both the front wides and front highs, you have to chose back surround with front wides OR font high, or no back surrounds, but then you can use the front high. You can connect all 11 speakers and then use the speaker layout button on the remote to dictate which set up to use.

So your set up of using both FW and FH with surrounds will work just fine.

Thanks for the info.

And you are correct.

Other question:

With 9.1 setup can I do Zones?

Thanks!
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post #25 of 25 Old 02-11-2013, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majas View Post


Other question:

With 9.1 setup can I do Zones?

Thanks!

Setup yes, but when zone(s) are active, 9.1 turns to 7.1 (1 zone) or 5.1 (2 zone). Makes sense...

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