Sunfire vs Outlaw amp - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 55 Old 08-13-2012, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I am looking for a new amp to run my 7.1 PSB image speakers.

Im looking at the Sunfire Theater Grand Amplifier - TGA-7201

or the Outlaw 7200

both are close in price and look close in spec. The Sunfire weighs half of the Outlaw. Any thoughts???? Or any one own the sunfire?
Thanks

FW 15.3 PSB, Now where did I put my beer?
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post #2 of 55 Old 08-13-2012, 07:00 PM
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Depends...do you want your amp to look good or sound incredible? My cash would go to the Outlaw.
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post #3 of 55 Old 08-14-2012, 04:08 PM
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been running a outlaw 7125 for a few years and never a problem but a 7200 is 200wpc and it's in the price range of a sunfire amp??? both new units??? i would have thought that the sunfire would be a bit more in price. i've looked at a 7200 but went with 200wpc mono blocks instead. so i vote outlaw but sunfire at the same price or close, huh, i'd sure think about that also, good luck....
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post #4 of 55 Old 08-14-2012, 04:32 PM
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Find out what one cost cheaper to repair for down the road.
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post #5 of 55 Old 08-14-2012, 08:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input, the sunfire is only about 200 dollars cheaper, I dont know who makes the sunfire either. I have never heard anyone complain about the outlaw

FW 15.3 PSB, Now where did I put my beer?
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post #6 of 55 Old 08-14-2012, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalbender View Post

Thanks for the input, the sunfire is only about 200 dollars cheaper, I dont know who makes the sunfire either. I have never heard anyone complain about the outlaw

The Sunfire is(was) made by Bob Carver, and is a well respected design. These amps seem to have unlimited power and run stone cold to boot. I have the TGA 7401, which will be looking for a new home soon, as I have decided to let my Pioneer SC37 take the HT duty on it's own and go deeper down the two channel rabbit hole.

I have had Sunfire in my rig for a very long time and they have been a stellar performer and do well in a combination rig as they are warm and musical, but packing the sonic impact needed to do HT exceptionally well.

My call would be to go Sunfire.
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post #7 of 55 Old 08-14-2012, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Does bob carver actually make his own equipment or does he sorce and put his name on them? Just courious

FW 15.3 PSB, Now where did I put my beer?
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post #8 of 55 Old 08-15-2012, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalbender View Post

Does bob carver actually make his own equipment or does he sorce and put his name on them? Just courious

Bob now has a company called Bob Carver.com http://www.bobcarver.com/default.asp

He builds world class tube amps similar to the ones he helped me build, so yes, he does build his own gear. Sunfire however, he sold back in 2005, and ended his relationship with the company completely when the moved operations to Carlsbad CA, a couple years ago. Anything that carries the Sunfire name today has Bob's fingerprints on it.
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post #9 of 55 Old 08-16-2012, 09:02 AM
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Easy choice, IMO.

Sunfire is a responsible company; Sunfire amps are certified as to their electrical safety by an OSHA-approved NRTL, TÜV Rheinland. You can see their mark above the FCC logo*

200904_sunfire_rear_600w.jpg

Outlaw, by contast, is too cheap/lazy/callous to achieve proper electrical safety certification for their amps. So, as between those units, a reasonable person would always choose the Sunfire. There are other responsible "high end" amp sellers who send their amps to NRTL's for safety certification and therefore whose multichannel amps are also worthy of consideration. A non-exhaustive list is Anthem, Mark Levinson, Arcam, Integra, and NAD. (The one I use is not from any brand listed, but it's also not in current production and that brand has no replacement part, so not worth mentioning here.)

Any amp lacking one of these logos somewhere on its exterior should be summarily rejected.

*as an aside, many switching amps sold are in violation of federal law. If an amp has a switching power supply and/or Class D output and does not have an FCC logo, it is from a company with no regard for federal regulations, and should also be summarily rejected by decent people.

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post #10 of 55 Old 08-16-2012, 11:46 AM
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If SNR is NOT important to you go for the Sunfire. Noisy, noisy, noisy.....

Brian R. Smith
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post #11 of 55 Old 08-16-2012, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Bghead8che View Post

If SNR is NOT important to you go for the Sunfire. Noisy, noisy, noisy.....

This is such complete bs... I have had quite a few of these and they all dead silent and well below any audible thd or snr spec you can site. I would however look to a 7401 over the 7201. It may be twice the price but it is ten times better IMHO.
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post #12 of 55 Old 08-16-2012, 12:27 PM
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I ran a sunfire 7201 for a few months a while ago and it wasn't noisy at all...... In fact, it was dead quite and sounded great.

Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #13 of 55 Old 08-16-2012, 01:08 PM
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I have a 7401 and love it. Great amp and dead quiet, and I power fairly sensitive speakers - 98 dB. The 7401 also has the most power packed into the smallest footprint of any amp I'm aware of.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
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post #14 of 55 Old 08-16-2012, 01:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Easy choice, IMO.
Sunfire is a responsible company; Sunfire amps are certified as to their electrical safety by an OSHA-approved NRTL, TÜV Rheinland. You can see their mark above the FCC logo*
200904_sunfire_rear_600w.jpg
Outlaw, by contast, is too cheap/lazy/callous to achieve proper electrical safety certification for their amps. So, as between those units, a reasonable person would always choose the Sunfire. There are other responsible "high end" amp sellers who send their amps to NRTL's for safety certification and therefore whose multichannel amps are also worthy of consideration. A non-exhaustive list is Anthem, Mark Levinson, Arcam, Integra, and NAD. (The one I use is not from any brand listed, but it's also not in current production and that brand has no replacement part, so not worth mentioning here.)
Any amp lacking one of these logos somewhere on its exterior should be summarily rejected.
*as an aside, many switching amps sold are in violation of federal law. If an amp has a switching power supply and/or Class D output and does not have an FCC logo, it is from a company with no regard for federal regulations, and should also be summarily rejected by decent people.

Not sure where you are getting your info about Outlaw, but my 7125 has an OSHA logo on the back. I would suggest you not merely check the company page/ photos for this as these can be early prototype pics that don't have certification yet.
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post #15 of 55 Old 08-16-2012, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Not sure where you are getting your info about Outlaw, but my 7125 has an OSHA logo on the back. I would suggest you not merely check the company page/ photos for this as these can be early prototype pics that don't have certification yet.

It always amazes me that those with no experience post crap like that, expecting those of us that have experience to just accept what they have to say as fact. I find that happening a lot on this forum.cool.gif
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post #16 of 55 Old 08-16-2012, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post


Not sure where you are getting your info about Outlaw, but my 7125 has an OSHA logo on the back. I would suggest you not merely check the company page/ photos for this as these can be early prototype pics that don't have certification yet.

Really? Could you post a picture?

All of the Outlaws I've seen in person do not. (There have only been a couple, their cheap knockoff of the NHT A1 1RU-high Class G monoblock - which is an NRTL certified amp, unlike Outlaw's knockoff - and their smallest multichannel amp.)

Here is a picture of a real life 7125 in the secondary market;
rear.jpg

I see no NRTL mark in that picture.

But if Outlaw's grown up as a company and is now getting the proper electrical safety certifications for their kit, that's good news. If not, the only thing from Outlaw worth "buying" is their guide to the Velodyne SMS-1. It's much better than Velo's manual.

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post #17 of 55 Old 08-16-2012, 07:28 PM
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I have a Silver 5400 I purchased a little while back to see if I would like it as compared to my Sherbourn. I also heard that Sunfire is a good match with Martin Logan.

I am very happy with my Sunfire. I sold my Sherbourn 7/2100 which was also a great amp and comparable to an Outlaw amp. (I think they are essentially the same from what i have read)

Anyway. Sunfire amps are silent. Period.

Great amp and I would consider another one when ever the time comes purchase a new amp.

They are cool running, silent, don't take up a lot of space and are full of power. Suits my needs perfectly.

Speakers: Martin Logan Montis, EM C2, Dual Depth I Subs, JBL S38 surround (upgrading soon) | Processor: Yamaha CX-A5000 | Amp: Sunfire TGA-5400 | Sources: DirecTV HR34, HTPC, Mac Mini, Oppo BDP-103, PS4, PS3, Xbox One, Wii U | Television: Panasonic 65VT50 | Remote: Logitech Harmony Ultimate
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post #18 of 55 Old 08-17-2012, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Well thanks for all the good input, it sounds like I cant go wrong with either but the sunfire is cheaper and is not a pig to move around it should push my PSB's just fine.
Thanks Eric

FW 15.3 PSB, Now where did I put my beer?
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post #19 of 55 Old 08-18-2012, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

It always amazes me that those with no experience post crap like that, expecting those of us that have experience to just accept what they have to say as fact. I find that happening a lot on this forum.cool.gif

Indeed.

Now, since what I posted about Outlaw being too cheap/lazy/callous to spring for NRTL safety certification for their high current/high voltage devices is so obviously "crap" and only made because I have "no experience," how about you snap a picture of an Outlaw amp showing an NRTL mark? I've already shown one (not an airbrushed pic from their website, but a back panel someone snapped in the course of trying to sell their own unit on the secondary market) that clearly lacks an NRTL mark.

Otherwise, your petulant little remark is nothing but projection.

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post #20 of 55 Old 08-18-2012, 10:20 AM
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I am not going to take any of my time to do that. I did a little google search and guess what? You are all over the internet basically trashing any component that does not have this safety certification. Do you work for them or soomething and get paid on commission? The OP asked for honest impressions of the amps in question, not whether or not they passed some german company's safety review, which no doubt adds to the cost of the amp he wants to buy. Outlaw is a good company that builds here in the US. There are dozens of product safety laws their gear must meet before it can be sold to the public, so I think he's good there.

I hope all your gear can be turned on and controlled by remote. Do you keep a fire extinguisher near your equipment rack? Can't be too safe.:rolleyes

I used this as a Google search...
nrtl amplifier ds-21

Using this was rather revealing. Further, a search here reveals you to post about NRTL and companies that do not use them in about 30% of your posts. Just because they don't meet your requirements does not mean they are bad, good or anything other than they don't want to spend teh exhorbitant fees to obtain them. Those costs are tens of thousands of dollars. If you build tens of thousands of components a year, it comes out to a buck a copy... no big deal. But if you build a thousand a year or less, forget about it.
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post #21 of 55 Old 08-18-2012, 10:25 AM
 
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Anyone willing to toss around insults or name call devalues their own posts.

As for the assertion regarding Outlaw, you may be partly right about the certification. I'm on a trip right now or I'd pull mine from the rack. But your picture is unreadable, and it looks like a Photo I saw on line where the print was not readable.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure my Parasound Halo amp also has no North American certification. I know Emotiva has none. It seems like a trend to me.
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post #22 of 55 Old 08-18-2012, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

I am not going to take any of my time to do that. I did a little google search and guess what? You are all over the internet basically trashing any component that does not have this safety certification. Do you work for them or soomething and get paid on commission? The OP asked for honest impressions of the amps in question, not whether or not they passed some german company's safety review, which no doubt adds to the cost of the amp he wants to buy. Outlaw is a good company that builds here in the US. There are dozens of product safety laws their gear must meet before it can be sold to the public, so I think he's good there.

I hope all your gear can be turned on and controlled by remote. Do you keep a fire extinguisher near your equipment rack? Can't be too safe.:rolleyes

I used this as a Google search...
nrtl amplifier ds-21

Using this was rather revealing. Further, a search here reveals you to post about NRTL and companies that do not use them in about 30% of your posts. Just because they don't meet your requirements does not mean they are bad, good or anything other than they don't want to spend teh exhorbitant fees to obtain them. Those costs are tens of thousands of dollars. If you build tens of thousands of components a year, it comes out to a buck a copy... no big deal. But if you build a thousand a year or less, forget about it.

So was that a yes or no on actually having the NRTL cert?
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post #23 of 55 Old 08-19-2012, 09:14 AM
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It's more of an I don't care... if he says they don't then it's on him to prove it, not me. Maybe he will force them into doings so(if they don't already) by telling him that he will never own their products and will take to the internet on a personal crusade to make the world free off any electronics that don't submit themselves to testing by his accepted means. (something it appears he is already doing)

If you make a claim then back it up with your facts... isn't that the way it works around here?
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post #24 of 55 Old 08-19-2012, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

I am not going to take any of my time to do that.

Thank you for at least obliquely conceding that I'm correct about your earlier little outburst (I was writing "crap" because I have "no experience") being merely projection on your part, and further for basically conceding that I'm correct in my assertion that Outlaw is too cheap/lazy/callous to bother with independent verification of their products' electrical safety.
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Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

I did a little google search and guess what? You are all over the internet basically trashing any component that does not have this safety certification.

Yes. Because NRTL electrical safety certification is one of the few variables on which consumer amplifiers actually differ, that is relevant and material to the end user. It shouldn't be something on which amps vary; there's really no excuse not to have it. But in today's market, safety certification is unfortunately an actual differentiating factor.

Basically, assuming competent design (low output impedance, flat FR in the audible band etc.) and selection, the relevant and material variables to an educated (as opposed to ignorant) amplifier consumer are the following
  • sufficient voltage swing and current drive to push the intended loudspeakers to the desired SPL
  • noise floor
  • looks
  • size
  • price
  • energy efficiency
  • features (signal-sensing inputs, 12V trigger I/O, DSP, etc.)
  • warranty...and
  • electrical safety certification*

(Note that "sound" is not on the list. Given the above "competent design" conditions, sound is not a differentiating factor between audio amplifiers. A "mid fi" Yamaha integrated amp sounds exactly the same as expensive Pass Labs monoblocs when a listener is forced to use merely her/his ears rather than ears encumbered by various biases. Yes, sometimes amps are incompetently designed or built - high output impedance, improperly selected or isolated transformers that hum, other noise/hiss issues, etc. But it is easy to screen for incompetent design or flawed build. For instance, I do a "noise floor" test on any amp I'm considering that consists of simply attaching a cheap but efficient Eminence compression driver to each amp channel output, and seeing how close it can get to my ears before I hear hiss.)

*For amps that incorporate switching power supplies and/or Class D output stages, there's one more: FCC RFI/EMI interference certification ("Part B"). There is a material and relevant distinction, though. NRTL certification is voluntary. It is legal to sell an amplifier without getting it properly safety-tested by an NRTL. However, the FCC regs are mandatory. Any brand marketing amps in the US with a switching power supply and/or Class D output stage that does not carry an FCC logo is breaking the law. Behringer was recently called onto the mat by the FCC for failing to get some of their products properly certified to meet Part B, and paid a seven-figure fine for it. NuForce also ran into trouble for failing to meet Part B, though I don't remember there if their trouble was from the FCC, or from consumers annoyed that NuForce's non-certified and incompetent amp design was interfering with their radio (cellphone?) reception.
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Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

Do you work for them or soomething and get paid on commission?

While the answer is "no" based on any reasonable antecedent for your vague pronoun "them" (my employment has nothing to do with any firm or government agency mentioned by me or anyone else on this thread), work for whom exactly? Good basic practice in writing is to phase questions with a reasonable degree of clarity, and you have failed to do that with your "them."

Furthermore, the way you phrased the question implies basic ignorance of the subject matter. Really, your newest childish little outburst is like saying, "what, you care that a car has been crash tested? You don't just trust the manufacturer when they say that their internal process declared it safe? Does NHTSA pay you a commission every time you write that?"

"NRTL" is not a firm, it's a U.S. government (OSHA) designation ("Nationally Recognized Testing Lab") that a firm is competent to test products so as to verify their electrical safety. There are a number of independent private firms that are all certified to by OSHA to test such products for safety. The ones most commonly used by actual audio amplifier makers/marketers seem to be, from the limited sample size of my own experience, UL, CSA, ETL, entela, and TÜV Rheinland. I'm not saying one is better than another, though they may be. They're all approved by OSHA as testing to "consensus-based safety standards." IMO, that's good enough. It's good enough for one's homeowners insurance, too. (Using non-safety certified electronics may be grounds to deny an insurance claim if something goes awry.)
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Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

The OP asked for honest impressions of the amps in question, not whether or not they passed some german company's safety review,

And my honest impression that a non-NRTL certified amp is worth little more than the scrap value of the casing and any non-SMD electrical components (power supply caps, etc.).

Furthermore, to my limited knowledge (I haven't studied the corporate ownership structures of NRTL's in any detail) most of the OSHA-approved NRTL's are American, not German: UL, ETL, entela, and so on. The one Sunfire happened to use does seem to be German. (SVS's latest run of subwoofer plate amps also carry TÜV Rheinland marks. SVS. SVS is one of the few powered subwoofer makers responsible enough to get their plate amps properly certified as to their electrical safety.) Another one commonly used by audio amplifier makers/marketers, CSA, is I assume Canadian.
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Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

Using this was rather revealing. Further, a search here reveals you to post about NRTL and companies that do not use them in about 30% of your posts. Just because they don't meet your requirements does not mean they are bad, good or anything other than they don't want to spend teh exhorbitant fees to obtain them. Those costs are tens of thousands of dollars. If you build tens of thousands of components a year, it comes out to a buck a copy... no big deal. But if you build a thousand a year or less, forget about it.

Anthem and Integra sell affordable very affordable multichannel amps with NRTL certification, and I doubt PVA7's and DTA 70.1's exactly fly off the shelves.

The old Sherwood A-965 was built equal to or better than anything else on the market then or now (see Dr. David Rich's review), was priced well under $2k, was expected by the maker to be a niche product (see Dr. Rich review, supra), and carried electrical safety certification from UL, one of the OSHA-approved NRTL's.

Arcam, NAD and Sunfire are other companies whose amps are price-and-features competitive with amps hawked by lesser firms, yet carry proper electrical safety certification. Others amp makers that get their parts properly safety-certified, such as McIntosh and Mark Levinson, are a lot more expensive, but there one's paying a hefty premium for the brand name and casework design, not for the safety certification.

Let's look at another example. Outlaw has an 2-channel receiver with bass management the RR-2150. It currently costs $600, and does not carry NRTL safety certification. Harman/Kardon has a 2-channel receiver (HK 3490) with both more power than the Outlaw and more features (optical and coax digital inputs) that is properly safety certified. Yet the 3490 costs less. Do you think either one is a high volume product? Sure, H/K probably does sell more - as it should, because it's an objectively superior product that costs less - but I wouldn't expect either one to be more than a blip.
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Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

As for the assertion regarding Outlaw, you may be partly right about the certification.

My assertion is simply not one about which one can be "partially" right. One of us is categorically right, and one of us is categorically wrong, about this particular amp bearing the mark of an OSHA-approved NRTL.

I hope it you are right and I am wrong, because any high voltage/high current device brought into a private home should carry proper safety certifications. The available evidence, however, supports my conclusion, and nobody has produced any evidence to the contrary. Still, if Outlaw has indeed recently joined the ranks of responsible amp resellers, that would be IMO very good news.
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Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

But your picture is unreadable, and it looks like a Photo I saw on line where the print was not readable.

The resolution of the picture is sufficiently high for any person who has visited OSHA's list of "typical registered certification marks" and can read that page (i.e. not blind) to ascertain that the back panel of that Outlaw amp does not carry any of the marks shown on that page.
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Anyway, I'm pretty sure my Parasound Halo amp also has no North American certification. I know Emotiva has none. It seems like a trend to me.

Yes, it is. Lesser firms fail to get their products properly safety tested. Better firms get their products safety tested. There are plenty of properly-certified multichannel power amps on the market, including one of the two amps that the original poster asked about.

The former category, "lesser firms," does include both Parasound and Emotiva. Which is why neither Parasound nor Emotiva can be recommended.

Speaking of Parasound, John Curl is has-been who must be functionally deaf at this point given how he asserts on audio forums that power cords sound different from one another! Such ramblings are the mark of a con man, and who would want an amp that was designed by a con man and isn't even even independently certified as electrically safe? But that's all I'll write on that, as Parasound is out of the scope of the original inquiry in this thread.

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post #25 of 55 Old 08-19-2012, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

If you make a claim then back it up with your facts... isn't that the way it works around here?

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Originally Posted by nooshinjohn View Post

I am not going to take any of my time to do that.

Interesting double standard you have there.

Moreover, there's just no such thing as "your facts." Facts are universal, not owned. The word for which you reached but failed to grasp is "evidence:" anything tending to prove or disprove an assertion. The difference between "facts" and "evidence" is non-trivial to a careful writer.

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post #26 of 55 Old 08-19-2012, 11:50 AM
 
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Well thanks for all the good input, it sounds like I cant go wrong with either but the sunfire is cheaper and is not a pig to move around it should push my PSB's just fine.
Thanks Eric

If you value lighter amps, wyred4sound makes very light amps that are also very powerful.
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post #27 of 55 Old 08-19-2012, 09:28 PM
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"And my honest impression that a non-NRTL certified amp is worth little more than the scrap value of the casing and any non-SMD electrical components (power supply caps, etc.)."

Wow! MY ATI 2007 has given me years of trouble-free listening pleasure. If I'd known it was worth little more than scrap, I'd never have bought it. rolleyes.gif Truth be told, I've bought and enjoyed numerous HT products over the past 20 years and probably none of the them were NRTL certified.

This is a crusade for you. What's in it for you? What do you get out of it? What is your return on your investment for time and energy? Trying to change the world? If so, why focus only NRTL? Why not focus on ways to wean the world off of oil? I dare say more people die as a result of oil use and its consequences than from amps that aren't NRTL certified.
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post #28 of 55 Old 08-20-2012, 02:37 PM
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This is such complete bs... I have had quite a few of these and they all dead silent and well below any audible thd or snr spec you can site. I would however look to a 7401 over the 7201. It may be twice the price but it is ten times better IMHO.

Really? To illustrate my point I picked an amp that is 1/3 the price of the Sunfire. According to HomeTheater.com THD is 3 times worse, crosstalk is a very poor -76db, and the SNR is 100DB which is the SNR of a lower priced receiver. Keep in mind this is compared to a much lower priced amplifier. If you were to compare it to an ATI, Parasound, Anthem, etc. the numbers would look even worse in comparison. I have no problems with you liking Sunfire. I would never want to own an amp that costs that much and is that noisy, personally. wink.gif Obviously Sunfire sacrifices noise and distortion in favor of raw power. A choice some don't mind.


Sunfire TGA-4500 / Marantz MM7705

Price: $3800 | $1200
THD+N: 0.020% | .007%
Crosstalk: –76 db and –75 db / -85db and -84db
SNR: 100 DB / 111DB

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post #29 of 55 Old 08-20-2012, 09:09 PM
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Really? To illustrate my point I picked an amp that is 1/3 the price of the Sunfire. According to HomeTheater.com THD is 3 times worse, crosstalk is a very poor -76db, and the SNR is 100DB which is the SNR of a lower priced receiver. Keep in mind this is compared to a much lower priced amplifier. If you were to compare it to an ATI, Parasound, Anthem, etc. the numbers would look even worse in comparison. I have no problems with you liking Sunfire. I would never want to own an amp that costs that much and is that noisy, personally. wink.gif Obviously Sunfire sacrifices noise and distortion in favor of raw power. A choice some don't mind.
Sunfire TGA-4500 / Marantz MM7705
Price: $3800 | $1200
THD+N: 0.020% | .007%
Crosstalk: –76 db and –75 db / -85db and -84db
SNR: 100 DB / 111DB

Really??? To illustrate my point, I am listening to my Sunfire right now. There is ZERO noise of any kind, even when there is a pause, or there is a very quite spot, and the volume is cranked loud enough that the paint is peeling off the neighbor's house ACROSS THE STREET! eek.gifbiggrin.gif

My amp has 115 db SNR (TGA-7400) so you facts are dead wrong on one spec, and the others you site are well below any audible threshold, so outside of looking to argue, what's your point?

Riddle me this.. have you owned a Sunfire? Listened to or experienced one outside of a crappy sound room? No??? If all you can do is quote garbage numbers that you cannot even get right in the first place, I suggest you get some real experience and then come on and play again.

There are more than a few here that seem to think the cheaper the amp, the smarter they are and then they need to go out on a crusade to save others from spending their money on what they want, I take it you are also a part of that croud (as evidenced by the "my amp cost 1/3rd" comment). I will tell you that I cannot spend 4500 on a new Sunfire, but if I can grab a 7400 for 1500? try beating that for bang for the buck.tongue.gif

I don't mean to be so ticked by comments such as yours, but I must tell you that it is irritating beyond belief to actually have experience with something only to be called to task by somebody that just used Google and thinks that somehow ten seconds worth of keyboard time is equal to my 35 years of time, and who also calls the man who made Sunfire a friend. I think it safe to say I know far more about what these amps can do than you, and what I don;'t I call the man who designed and built them. That's far better than Google.
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post #30 of 55 Old 08-20-2012, 09:33 PM
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"...so your facts are dead wrong."

To be clear they are not my facts. They are HomeTheater magazines facts. I'm glad you are enjoying your amp.

-Brian

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