recommendation for a higher end receiver that is a few yrs old...denon, pioneer elite ,marantz - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 37 Old 08-27-2012, 11:38 PM - Thread Starter
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im looking for something a few yrs old I can afford online. Around 120 watts or more to drive big speakers,I will prolly use my tv to switch inputs and hdmi,I dont use many sources, ps3,hr 34 sat dvr and a blue ray player. My tv has 4 hdmi inputs,So is there really any reason why a newer rec with hdmi inputs and 3d pass through would be important to have?
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post #2 of 37 Old 08-28-2012, 04:17 AM
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With your sources connected to the TV, the best audio you'll likely get is STEREO which is why you want to connect them to an AVR if you're interested in 5.1 surround sound. The Denon 4311CI is a couple of years old now, but is still arguably the best AVR < $2000. Give AVS sales and Electronics Expo a "call" to see what kind of price you can get, although they're quickly selling out as the new 4520CI that replaces it is due to hit the market next month with a MSRP of $2500.
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post #3 of 37 Old 08-28-2012, 04:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

With your sources connected to the TV, the best audio you'll likely get is STEREO which is why you want to connect them to an AVR if you're interested in 5.1 surround sound. The Denon 4311CI is a couple of years old now, but is still arguably the best AVR < $2000. Give AVS sales and Electronics Expo a "call" to see what kind of price you can get, although they're quickly selling out as the new 4520CI that replaces it is due to hit the market next month with a MSRP of $2500.


I use an older receiver with a new LCD television and DD 5.1 works just fine. If the television has an optical output for audio, then you can get DD decoding (5.1 if that is the source) for every HDMI input used on the television Simply connect the receiver to the television via optical audio. The receiver input that I use is named TV (optical audio from TV).

I also connect the Bluray player (audio only) to my receiver via the coax audio input . That receiver input is named DVD. I use the DVD input when I want to use the DTS track. Bluray video is via HDMI direct to TV.
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post #4 of 37 Old 08-28-2012, 04:48 AM
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Although perhaps true with your model, in most cases, DD 5.1 is not possible and DTS 5.1 is even rarer.

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post #5 of 37 Old 08-28-2012, 04:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suncom3 View Post

im looking for something a few yrs old I can afford online. Around 120 watts or more to drive big speakers,I will prolly use my tv to switch inputs and hdmi,I dont use many sources, ps3,hr 34 sat dvr and a blue ray player. My tv has 4 hdmi inputs,So is there really any reason why a newer rec with hdmi inputs and 3d pass through would be important to have?

My opinion, in the case of Pioneer, you're paying for the word "elite."

As to a higher end receiver, my recommendation would be separates. Last years model pre/pro and a five channel amplifier. It would be about $1,500.00 - $2,000.00 and you'd have instant versatility as now all you'd have to upgrade and swap out would be the pre/pro.

You didn't post a budget. Do you have a budget in mind? There are plenty of lower cost alternative if my above is found to be too expensive for your thinking.
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post #6 of 37 Old 08-28-2012, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I hook up all the devices direct video by hdmi to the tv and run optical to the rec from each device..I dont really see the point in passing video through the rec? Im not real picky with audio,Im powering infinity studio monitors with 15s, klipsh center channel and surrounds are pretty small..Im thinking about getting new speakers as well,I want something that looks smaller and more modern and sounds a little crisper.I have a older marantz that came out right before dolby dig..I used it as a pre amp for the front speakers with a adcom gfa55. Id like to get a more modern rec. I have a yamaha 5490 i was using for a little while but the volume knob stoped working and the remote has to be used.then it started only working on some of the processor settings dolby dig and 6 channel stereo dont work any more at all,speakers just pop,hiss and go in and out.

So im looking at stuff in this price range.I assume they will work well for my needs. These were around 1800 new but can be found used for around 500 to 600 now.. any other suggestions for models in this price range,Id like to be able to use the adcom amp if possible with what ever model I choose.
Elite VSX-94TXH
7.1 Channel A/V Receiver Featuring Home Media Gallery–Audio with USB Input

HDMI® 1.3a
DTS-HD® & Dolby® TrueHD Decoders
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post #7 of 37 Old 08-28-2012, 10:48 AM
 
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My opinion, you have a lot of old stuff clouding your need for new thinking. Something to consider.
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post #8 of 37 Old 08-28-2012, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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not sure I follow you on that..Im looking at getting a new larger tv and a newer receiver and possibly speakers later down the road. Id just like to buy a rec that is a few yrs older and get something much nicer than i can afford new.. Receivers seem to be a dime a dozen used even in the high end than can be bought very cheap,only main diff in them is no or less hdmi inputs and 3d pass though. I dont see the need to pass video through the rec at all when you can use optical and get the same result. unless Im missing something? Here is the setup im using now,have not got the surrounds mounted in this house yet.. Im using dlp still cause its really still the only cost effective way to do 70 or larger displays


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post #9 of 37 Old 08-28-2012, 11:52 AM
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I use a Yamaha Z-9 that retailed for $4500.00. I have been jonesin for a newer receiver with hdmi in, but none of them under $2000 come close to the power and pure audio quality that the Z-9 produces (170wpc .0015THD). I will sat that I use a OPPO 83Special Edition to decode the new high def formats and to feed the Z-9 via rcas.
I have seen some Z-9s on the bay for 600 to 1000 or so.
Maybe this is what you are looking for.
I am considering getting a pre-pro and using the amps in the Z-9.
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post #10 of 37 Old 08-28-2012, 01:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suncom3 View Post

not sure I follow you on that..Im looking at getting a new larger tv and a newer receiver and possibly speakers later down the road.

The problem I'm seeing is, technology has moved forward of what you're wanting to do. My opinion, that's why it's so difficult to find what should be a simple solution. Working with you, consider last year's model but the further back you go, the less forward compatible you'll find AVR's to be.

Even today, simply pickup a full featured AVR like a delivered Marantz SR5007 for ~$750.00. It has a full set of pre-outs so if you want, you can add a five channel Amp at a later time and date. Doing it this way, everything will be compatible with no worries. In my opinion, that's a good thing. If you can find, at great savings, three or four year old AVR's that are going serve your needs today, I'm right there with you.

As an example, a Marantz, SR5007, with full set of pre-outs is $750.00

An Emotiva XPA-5 Amp with 200w of clean power at $900.00. Crown's XLS Series Amps, gets one there even cheaper.

So now the user has a 5.1 pre-pro with Amp for $1,650.00 and if one needs more, one can custom their needs as their budget allows; flexibility and the combination isn't going go tech belly up (obsolete) for years.

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post #11 of 37 Old 08-28-2012, 01:48 PM
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If you like marantz look into the marantz sr8002 which i think can be had.Fantastic reciever IMHO.Depending on your budget.
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post #12 of 37 Old 08-28-2012, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a marantz from around the 1998 range sr870ubl and a dps870u dolby digital processor,it has really nice amps in it,and 6 channel pre ins and outs. I dont really wana spend the money for a 5 channel amp,I cant remember if there was a way to run the adcom 2 channel amp i have and still have those channels work with the separate dolby digital processor I got for it.
Its been a while since I used it but I always wished it had a built in eq like the newer avrs do. I like really bright sound that I can only seem to get with 9 or more channel eq settings.I also really like the 6 channel stereo mode,that others have for music,this setup doesnt have this either. thats the main reason I was leaning towards a newer avr
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post #13 of 37 Old 08-28-2012, 02:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suncom3 View Post

I have a marantz from around the 1998 range sr870ubl and a dps870u dolby digital processor,it has really nice amps in it,and 6 channel pre ins and outs. I dont really wana spend the money for a 5 channel amp,I cant remember if there was a way to run the adcom 2 channel amp i have and still have those channels work with the separate dolby digital processor I got for it.
Its been a while since I used it but I always wished it had a built in eq like the newer avrs do. I like really bright sound that I can only seem to get with 9 or more channel eq settings.I also really like the 6 channel stereo mode,that others have for music,this setup doesnt have this either. thats the main reason I was leaning towards a newer avr

I love, love, love HDMI as out goes all the interconnects; video, audio and composite......just like that, gone.
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post #14 of 37 Old 08-28-2012, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
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i understand what you mean,but hdmi is really not necessary for better sound in a avr,a extra optic cable is no biggie to me.so in the interest of saving a few grand,I can deal with not having hdmi hookups if I get a much better sounding more capable avr a couple yrs older. I dont think ill ever use 7 channel sound in this house either. Something that does 5.1 dolby dig really well and music dvds and bluerays is really what im after.

I guess what I mean to say is I dont have to have the latest and greatest at this point in tech,I feel like everything that has been high end the last few years will totally suffice for me at this point,this includes video. I feel like displays a few yrs old are actually quite a bit better than todays,in pq and build quality. I suspect its prolly the same for audio,economics havnt done much justice to tech the last few yrs. Some of the best built equip ever made was done yrs ago. Whats better is the prices have dropped massively and that equip can be bought now for 60 to 70% less than it was new. While inflation has made the sub par equip done of today's times even more expensive.
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post #15 of 37 Old 08-28-2012, 07:20 PM
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Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD require an HDMI connection. If you haven't already, find a way to listen to a Blu-ray with HD audio, and then listen to the Dolby Digtial track. If you don't hear a difference, then you don't need an HDMI receiver.

Descartes' corollary: I don't think very much, therefore I may not be.

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post #16 of 37 Old 08-28-2012, 07:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suncom3 View Post

I guess what I mean to say is I dont have to have the latest and greatest at this point in tech,I feel like everything that has been high end the last few years will totally suffice for me at this point,this includes video.

Only problem with your above, technology, including formats have changed. That's why I gave the old AVR away and upgraded to new technology. One is welcome to recycle old technology but doing so makes it hard to get the best out of Blu-ray disks or many television programs who transmit in new technology when using old decoder rings. I'm not understanding your resistance to upgrading to at minimum, last years techno-models as for the price you seem willing to spend, you can get current technology.

A suggestion, check out the Denon AVR 1712 as easily this unit fits into your budget requirements.

The unit we have, has 7.2 pre-outs but like you, we have no intention of adding anything more than 5.2 speakers. If technology changes sufficiently, I'll add accordingly. Not sure about your power requirements as I'm sure you know, the additional power, is less than a 3db boost as maximum volume. Just trying to give you some ideas to think about, you know you want to. tongue.gif
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post #17 of 37 Old 08-29-2012, 12:49 AM
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It's been mentioned here before that over the recent years the weight and amp of the AVRs have dropped generally, also the amount of legacy inputs and pre-outs have largely diminished and the general build quality. Very few except some flagships are made in Japan. In turn new models are stuffed with internet streaming apps, USB ports, ipod docks, networking, more channels, more DSP modes...that to some people just seem to take a big slice from whatever resource is left for basic 'audio'.

So the OP has a viewpoint shared by some people but many if not the majority here believe all amps sound the same. When the entry models (sub $400) AVRs only weigh 15lb to 20lb I have my doubts. Real 120WPC MCH (as opposed to spec sheet for 2CH) is hard to find below $1000 or even higher. The Denon 1712 at 90WPC (specs) weighs 22.4lb.

Also bear in mind:

• Newer AVRs esp. entry and mid-level ones have very few legacy inputs and outputs.

• Video processing, even basic upscaling and de-interlacing has improved in recent years but many people who want the best or like to tinker would want to have a dedicated vp and not using the AVR to do video.

• Newer AVRs tend to have better room correction, that is more than an EQ. Not all RC can be manually adjusted. BTW, most here don't believe in things like 'bright' or 'warm' sounds.

• You don't 'need' an AVR that decodes HD audio because the PS3 and all current players can. An old HDMI AVR can take the decoded PCM.

• If you really are talking about non-HDMI AVRs you're into very old equipment, 2006 or older!

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #18 of 37 Old 08-29-2012, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Isble View Post

Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD require an HDMI connection.

Not true. If your Bluray player has Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD capability and has a 7.1 analog output then you will be able to play those formats without HDMI. Of course the AVR/prepro used has to have a 7.1 analog input as well.

Bill


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post #19 of 37 Old 08-29-2012, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
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Not true. If your Bluray player has Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD capability and has a 7.1 analog output then you will be able to play those formats without HDMI. Of course the AVR/prepro used has to have a 7.1 analog input as well.
Bill

You are correct. But I've been down that road. Besides having the physical connections, the prepro must also handle the LFE channel correctly. Delays and levels are usually not managed for the analog inputs, and must be set in the Blu-ray player.

Then there is the problem that there is typically only one analog input on the prepro. Blu-ray players with analog outputs are harder to find, and more expensive. Better to put that money into the receiver.

For me, the HD audio was worth the hassle of going the analog route, but now that I have an HDMI receiver with room correction, things are simpler and sound even better.

Descartes' corollary: I don't think very much, therefore I may not be.

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post #20 of 37 Old 08-29-2012, 06:26 AM
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Recently found an DTC 9.8 Integra for my cousin for $450. Just 5yrs. old and in perfect shape. All he wanted it for was Movies,TV,CD and muti-room. I gave him my old Panasonic-80 Blu Ray player w/5.1 analog out and he's very happy. His first AVR. He has been using a Kenwood KR-7600 since 1978. By the way the only thing that he's had to fix on the Kenwood since he got it was a new on/off switch. Todays audio equipment should last this long.smile.gif
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post #21 of 37 Old 08-29-2012, 07:17 AM
 
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I think everybody can agree that trying to recycle old technology when so many changes have been made, is an exercise in chasing one's wishful tail. In the least, very entertaining, if just for the challenge.
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post #22 of 37 Old 08-29-2012, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Isble View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Not true. If your Bluray player has Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD capability and has a 7.1 analog output then you will be able to play those formats without HDMI. Of course the AVR/prepro used has to have a 7.1 analog input as well.
Bill

You are correct. But I've been down that road. Besides having the physical connections, the prepro must also handle the LFE channel correctly. Delays and levels are usually not managed for the analog inputs, and must be set in the Blu-ray player.

Then there is the problem that there is typically only one analog input on the prepro. Blu-ray players with analog outputs are harder to find, and more expensive. Better to put that money into the receiver.

For me, the HD audio was worth the hassle of going the analog route, but now that I have an HDMI receiver with room correction, things are simpler and sound even better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Isble View Post

Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD require an HDMI connection.

Not true. If your Bluray player has Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD capability and has a 7.1 analog output then you will be able to play those formats without HDMI. Of course the AVR/prepro used has to have a 7.1 analog input as well.

Bill

realistically, if the user has an avr with good dsp* (specificially room correction and bass management), they would be MUCH better off to connect via spdif and use the lossy codecs... as the benefits of dsp are proven, and the "difference" between a lossy and a lossless codec is quite subtle on the best of systems... this is proven as well, if anyone tries to claim "night and day" differences (especially in an action flick) between lossy and lossless, they can be safely ignored...

* unless that avr re-digitizes the mch analog ins, and few do...

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post #23 of 37 Old 08-29-2012, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
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kilian..very informative post,Its funny you should mention weight. I dont really know one model from another shopping ebay and amazon,the first thing I look at is weight,then watts per channel ,then the aprox yr the avr was made,Im not going back to 06,its not necessary,the prices are much cheaper just looking at 08 and 09 stuff. Im not avoiding hdmi I just dont think i will use it other than maybe the blue ray player. The blue ray i have is a higher end unit I bought from 2010 also,it does have 7 channel out analog but i doubt id ever use it either.Was wondering why it even had it really? im leaning towards the elite vsx-94thx now. I see alot of good deals out there on it and its fairly new. I am searching for some of the denon models here mentioned as well.
What media has dolby true hd come out with.,Ive never heard it,But im not the type to go out hunting for it especially on something i dont want to watch or listen to . Sacd is still not avail in much either,I wouldnt go out seeking it out anyway. I just want something that will last,sound really good with the infinity sm152 speakers I run. Im not sure they would sound much better with true hd sound anyway,I have no idea really what do you guys think? these are what they are capable of.

The frequency response range for Infinity SM 152 speakers is 44 Hz (hertz) to negative 25 kHz (kilo hertz), plus or minus 3 dB (decibels), and the sensitivity rating is 102 dB, with one watt per meter. The crossover frequencies are 500 Hz and 5.5 kHz.


ccoteng...thats a little outa my league,ive never even heard of those type connections or most of what else you are talking about...simplify that a bit....
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post #24 of 37 Old 08-29-2012, 08:32 PM - Thread Starter
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http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-1712-Surround-Receiver-Black/dp/B004ZP72MU/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1346296433&sr=1-1&keywords=Denon+AVR+1712

hmmm.. at 22 pounds I wonder if this is a real 90 watt amp or fantasy land,Im not sure this could push the large speakers I have.


http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-VSX-94TXH/dp/B000WY0HUW/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1346296718&sr=1-1&keywords=VSX-94TXH+7.1
if you shop it you can find this unit around 500 to 600 now

at 44 pounds and being from one of the best yrs of all electronics,2008 was some of the best stuff ever made right before the world economy took a dump.I think this might be what Im after. I remember alot of talk about the Faroudja DCDi Video Scaler, in higher end units of this era,This might be a good enough reason to pass video through the avr.
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post #25 of 37 Old 08-29-2012, 08:41 PM
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Just bought a used Onkyo TX-SR876 off ebay for 1/3 the original cost. Has 7.1 sound with a bunch of inputs/outputs for anything you would need. Thing weighs 53 pounds (it’s a monster).
I replaced an old Kenwood KRV127R that finally took a crap and really didn’t need the video portion but wanted a lot of power for music. I also have a set of Infinity SM152’s (great speakers), a set of Cerwin Vega D7’s a couple of Bose 301 series II’s and a polk PSW505 12” sub.
Wanted a lot of music thump without breaking the bank. Have not had time to tune it yet but looking at the spec’s it is one of the top self A/V receivers. 140 watts per channel.
Going to try and set it up with the included Audyssey mic.
Spec’s below.

Amplifier Section
Power Output -
Front L/R 140 W + 140 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz,
0.05%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
160 W + 160 W (8 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.7%,
2 channels driven, FTC)
170 W + 170 W (6 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.1%,
2 channels driven, FTC)
Center 140 W + 140 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz,
0.05%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
160 W + 160 W (8 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.7%,
2 channels driven, FTC)
170 W + 170 W (6 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.1%,
2 channels driven, FTC)
Surround L/R 140 W + 140 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz,
0.05%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
160 W + 160 W (8 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.7%,
2 channels driven, FTC)
170 W + 170 W (6 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.1%,
2 channels driven, FTC)
Surround Back L/R 140 W + 140 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz,
0.05%, 2 channels driven, FTC)
160 W + 160 W (8 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.7%,
2 channels driven, FTC)
170 W + 170 W (6 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.1%,
2 channels driven, FTC)
Dynamic Power 320 W (3 ohms, 1 ch)
270 W (4 ohms, 1 ch)
160 W (8 ohms, 1 ch)
THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) 0.05% (Rated power)
Damping Factor 60 (Front, 1 kHz, 8 ohms)
Input Sensitivity and Impedance 200 mV/47 k-ohms (Line)
2.5 mV/47 k-ohms (Phono MM)
Output Level and Impedance 200 mV/470 ohms (Rec out)
Phono Overload 70 mV (MM, 1 kHz, 0.5%)
Frequency Response 5 Hz–100 kHz/+1 dB, -3 dB (Direct mode)
Tone Control ±10 dB, 20 Hz (Bass)
±10 dB, 20 kHz (Treble)
Signal-to-Noise Ratio 110 dB (Line, IHF-A)
Speaker Impedance 4 ohms–16 ohms or 6 ohms–16 ohms

Video Section
Input Sensitivity/Output Level and Impedance -
Video 1 Vp-p/75 ohms (Component and S-Video Y)
0.7 Vp-p/75 ohms (Component PB/CB, PR/CR)
0.28 Vp-p/75 ohms (S-Video C)
1 Vp-p/75 ohms (Composite)
Component Video Frequency Response 5 Hz–100 MHz (-3 dB)

Tuner Section
Tuning Frequency Range -
FM 87.5 MHz–107.9 MHz
AM 530 kHz–1,710 kHz
FM/AM Preset Memory 40 stations

General
Power Supply AC 120 V, 60 Hz
Power Consumption 9.5 A
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post #26 of 37 Old 08-29-2012, 10:04 PM - Thread Starter
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29 fountain...nice find,that sounds like a beast


Here is a classic example of what im talking about,this was a $4000 elite that sold for 1/10th the cost on eay for 400 bucks. High end avr is such dime a dozen on ebay. this one is 160 channel, and prolly overkill for me.I think the vsx 94 or 92 would be fine for me and still have some modern connections and dsp settings... shopped long enough can be had for as low as 250 bucks

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PIONEER-ELITE-VSX-59TXI-4000-THX-ULTRA-II-RECEIVER-3DAY-NR-DENON-M-K-B-K-/230842858802?pt=Receivers_Tuners&hash=item35bf4e7d32#ht_782wt_1165
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post #27 of 37 Old 08-31-2012, 01:21 PM
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Picked mine up for $450 and it does not have a scratch on it. Talked with the old owner several times before I paid that much.

http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921666468385#specifications

Was looking at the one on the link above to buy new. Not top of the line but I have two other Sony's for surround sound movie watching and a little music and they are not bad at all for the price.

Got the Onkyo just for power. On mine you can bridge the front speakers for double the watts. One of the only A/V amps I found that you could do that with.
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post #28 of 37 Old 08-31-2012, 01:24 PM
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Oh, that Pioneer is a monster receiver. I see the weight is over 60 pounds!!!
There is something to be said about weight and power output, they go hand in hand.
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post #29 of 37 Old 08-31-2012, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suncom3 View Post

http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-1712-Surround-Receiver-Black/dp/B004ZP72MU/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1346296433&sr=1-1&keywords=Denon+AVR+1712

hmmm.. at 22 pounds I wonder if this is a real 90 watt amp or fantasy land,Im not sure this could push the large speakers I have.


http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-VSX-94TXH/dp/B000WY0HUW/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1346296718&sr=1-1&keywords=VSX-94TXH+7.1
if you shop it you can find this unit around 500 to 600 now

at 44 pounds and being from one of the best yrs of all electronics,2008 was some of the best stuff ever made right before the world economy took a dump.I think this might be what Im after. I remember alot of talk about the Faroudja DCDi Video Scaler, in higher end units of this era,This might be a good enough reason to pass video through the avr.

compared to the processing in a modern avr (or a modern display), the faroudja chip is a pos...

imo/ime, much bandwidth on the interwebs is wasted worrying about weight and power of avrs... for example, someone is talking about needing "more power" to drive cv d7's... really? you live in a gymnasium?

methinks people are focussing on the wrong aspects when it comes to sound reproduction...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 


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post #30 of 37 Old 08-31-2012, 01:39 PM
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^^^
very well said.

cheers


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