Pioneer SC-65 or Denon AVR3313CI - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Pioneer SC-65 or Denon AVR3313CI
Pioneer SC-65 10 62.50%
Denon AVR3313CI 6 37.50%
Voters: 16. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 18 Old 09-16-2012, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm seriously thinking about upgrading my aging Denon AVR-5700.

Most of my use is Surround Sound Movie listening, but I do enjoy breaking out the SACDs and listening to music and having it sound good is important, both as surround and Stereo.

My Speakers are NHT all around.

I have too many HDMI and AV switchers to manage a plethora of Cable Boxes, Blu-Ray players, Legacy region free DVD player, and every current videogame that supports Hi-Def.

Having a modern system, that is expandable (future proof as possible) with modern HDMI switching features and nice iPhone/iPad remote control possibilities.

I can get either of these units roughly the same price (Pioneer SC-65 or Denon AVR3313CI), anyone have any thoughts?

Yes, I've done plenty of google searches before posting this, if you have some friendly useful info, please let me know,
if you have nasty comments about my proficiency to search the internet, please keep your vicious thoughts to yourself and return to your lovely life under the bridge.

Thanks in advance!
Mitch

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post #2 of 18 Old 09-16-2012, 02:46 PM
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The Pioneer should be the more powerful of the two choices, the Class-D amps are similar to the ones used in the SC-55 and SC-57 these are well known to be powerful.

If I look at the NHT site I don't see very efficient speakers and with high impedance but the opposite, speakers with quite low efficiency (86dB for example) with a nominal impedance of 6Ohm.

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Audio | Receiver: Pioneer VSX-AX2AS-S (Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS) | Speakers: 2x KEF Q900 for Fronts | 2x KEF Q700 for Rears
Audio/Video Sources | Panasonic DMP-BDT 310 | Pioneer PL-510 | HTPC using Intel i3-3220 16GB XBMC on Ubuntu 13.10
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post #3 of 18 Old 09-16-2012, 10:31 PM - Thread Starter
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NHTs are all legacy products.

Fronts are 2.9's
Drivers:
10" long-throw polypropylene subwoofer, 6.5" polypropylene lower midrange, 4" polypropylene uper midrange, 1" fluid-cooled aluminum dome tweeter
In-room Response:
26Hz -26KHz, +/-3dB
Sensitivity:
87dB SPL @2.83V/M
Impedance:
6 ohms nom., (3.1 min.)
Suggested Amp. Power:
30w/ch - 250w/ch

Rears are VT 1.2's
System Type:
3-way, vented
Drivers:
8" long throw, side loaded subwoofer (biampfliable), two 4.5"
midranges, 1" fluid cooled dome tweeter (upper drivers shielded)
Frequency Response:
33Hz ? 21KHz +/-3dB
Sensitivity:
86dB @ 2.83 V/M
Impedance:
8 ohms nominal
Recommended Amp. Power:
35-200 watts/channel

I'm too tired to see what the center is, but I'm guessing it is a SC2.

I'm a little less technical as far as electronics go than many of the users here, can someone explain how these speakers can be effective with less or more power?
I know the watts are a factor that is really played with on consumer electronics, Is 175 really the watts per channel with all channels being driven at the same time? Or is RMS the real power of the AMP?

Thanks!

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post #4 of 18 Old 09-18-2012, 11:57 AM
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The Pioneer Elite SC-65 is specified for 130 watt @ 8Ohm per channel, two channels driven.
780 Watt @ 8Ohm all channels driven, divide that in 9 and you'll get 80 Watt per channel all channels driven.
It's for 170 watt @ 6 Ohm per channel, two channels driven.

Also is this receiver by Pioneer 'approved' to be used for speakers which are having a 4Ohm impedance, the Denon is not.


Speaker sensitivity is measured in dB, the higher the number is how more sensitive the speakers are.
See more about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker#Efficiency_vs._sensitivity

TV: Panasonic TX-P50VT30E
Audio | Receiver: Pioneer VSX-AX2AS-S (Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS) | Speakers: 2x KEF Q900 for Fronts | 2x KEF Q700 for Rears
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post #5 of 18 Old 09-18-2012, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prietz0r View Post

The Pioneer Elite SC-65 is specified for 130 watt @ 8Ohm per channel, two channels driven.
780 Watt @ 8Ohm all channels driven, divide that in 9 and you'll get 80 Watt per channel all channels driven.
It's for 170 watt @ 6 Ohm per channel, two channels driven.
Also is this receiver by Pioneer 'approved' to be used for speakers which are having a 4Ohm impedance, the Denon is not.
Speaker sensitivity is measured in dB, the higher the number is how more sensitive the speakers are.
See more about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudspeaker#Efficiency_vs._sensitivity
AVR-3313 should be able to drive speakers without problem.

Look to owners manual for correct specification, NOT Denon web site.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1409431/the-official-denon-avr-xx13-model-owners-thread-faq/2130#post_22412246
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post #6 of 18 Old 09-18-2012, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prietz0r View Post

Also is this receiver by Pioneer 'approved' to be used for speakers which are having a 4Ohm impedance, the Denon is not.

As noted the OP's speakers are 6-ohm; however, Denon AVRs can generally handle 4-ohm speakers at average level volume without issue.

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post #7 of 18 Old 09-18-2012, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain- View Post

AVR-3313 should be able to drive speakers without problem.
Look to owners manual for correct specification, NOT Denon web site.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1409431/the-official-denon-avr-xx13-model-owners-thread-faq/2130#post_22412246

In the quotes topic you can read this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

A number of specs provided on the individual AVR and compare web pages are either incorrect or missing, including this one as every model in the XX13 lineup to include the 2313 and 3313 has this feature. What it means is that although certified for 6-16 ohm speakers, all models are able to drive 4-ohm speakers at average (non-movie level) volumes.

Here is stated that the models are able to drive 4-ohm speakers at average volumes, and that they are not certified for 4-ohm speakers smile.gif

The named speakers thee NHT 2.9's are measured by Stereophile:
Quote:
The NHT's impedance (fig.1) stays between 4 and 6 ohms over much of the audioband, with a dip to 3.4 ohms at 54Hz but a moderately low phase angle overall. The combination of 6 ohms magnitude and 45 degrees phase angle at 40Hz might be too demanding for some receivers, but an amplifier rated into 4 ohms would be a good match for the speaker. My estimate of the 2.9's voltage sensitivity came in marginally higher than spec at 88dB/2.83V/m, meaning that even a 50W amplifier will drive it to quite high levels in a moderate-sized room. The peak at 30Hz in fig.1 indicates the 10" woofer's sealed-box tuning frequency.

What you read there is that these speakers might be too demanding for some receivers, but that a amplifier rated for 4-ohm speakers would be a good match.

TV: Panasonic TX-P50VT30E
Audio | Receiver: Pioneer VSX-AX2AS-S (Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS) | Speakers: 2x KEF Q900 for Fronts | 2x KEF Q700 for Rears
Audio/Video Sources | Panasonic DMP-BDT 310 | Pioneer PL-510 | HTPC using Intel i3-3220 16GB XBMC on Ubuntu 13.10
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post #8 of 18 Old 10-10-2012, 03:06 PM
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I cannot compare the SC-65 to the 3313. But i purchased the SC-65 a few weeks ago and i am pretty pleased with it.
I am using it with DefTech Mythos ST's and love the sound i am getting. I use it for video and music (CD's or MP3, also Pandora)
From what i read you did your research. As far as i can see the 2 devices support a very similar range of features but the SC-65 might have a little more power.
I did have a Denon before (2307) but this is in a different price range than 3313 and SC-65. The Denon 2307 definitely was a little week. I never tried it with the ST's. Compared to an older system with a pretty good HK amp and Canon ergo 92DC speakers i would say that the SC-65 is doing very well.
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post #9 of 18 Old 01-07-2013, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I suppose I'm not very well versed in audio electronics specs I wish I took the time to understand all the watts, RMS, Ohms and their correlations discussed above. (I'm hardly a ludite and I'm a prepress director and am surrounded by music and graphics creation equipment).

When I bought the AVR-5700 (which was around 2k Cash and My Sony Rear Projection 60" I had created a long term problem as I'm worried about what I have to do when facing upgrades to make sure that I'm never taking a step backwards. I can't move backwards from 60" and I really don't want audio that sounds sub-par to what I currently own.

I'm using a complex array of Pelican Audio switch boxes along with a Monoprice HDMI switcher to compensate for the lack of HDMI switching that my receiver does. HDMI handshaking can be annoying for me, but sends my wife to tears when I'm away from home.

If my life wasn't as complicated by the necessity to have the most recent Canon DSLR, every video game system, all the current computer Musical Creation devices and software, lots of firearms, guitars and every blu-ray release that is of passing interest to me, I'd have a Home Theater that would rival the ones in the best publications,
Unfortunately I wasn't born into wealth and the current economy stinks. (That being said if anyone needs any high-end printing done...)

I know CES season is upon us, I also know I'm getting some intermittent static from my left channel, that I've yet to debug.

4K will eventually be important to me.
Bi-wiring the current speakers is important to me.
iPod/Pad/Phone connectivity is important tio me, The controlling interface is probably more important to me than Airplay, but Airplay is nice and convenient for non-audiofile uses like podcasts.
Tons of HDMI inputs is important to me.
A HDMI that I can use my current converter (HDMI-DVI) is important to me (until 4k becomes more affordable).
It would be nice if I can chance the name displayed on the AVR from "Audio one" to a name I choose like "Xbox 720." Not a deal breaker, but it would be nice.
Having a system that I can feel is slightly future proof for then next ten years and doesn't require any service (like my AVR-5700 did for 15) is paramount.

While I know this isn't a meeting place of altruistic geeks, but a forum, I'm not expecting a personal shopper, but if anyone has the answers I'm looking for and enjoys coffee or something else I specialize in I'd be willing to send a thank you.

Thanks in advance and wishing you all a healthy and happy new year.

Cheers,
Mitch

I have a Toshiba HD-DVD player and the Samsung Blu-Ray player. The winner of the format war is Me!
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post #10 of 18 Old 01-07-2013, 05:00 PM
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I have a denon 3311ci and placed an order of a pioneer 1222 (sc-61 without the elite logo). And i prefer the 1222. I auditioned a 1021 and was very very impressive. So I cant imagine the 1222 which has d3 amps and advanced mcacc.
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post #11 of 18 Old 01-27-2013, 10:11 PM
 
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I like both Pioneer and Denon and I do not think you can go far wrong with either choice. That being said, I think the Pioneer SC 65 is the better of the two (pretty much by far).

The Denon has MultiEQ XT, the Pioneer Auto MCACC Advanced. As has been said 100000 times, some prefer one over the other but IMO and in my experience MCACC is superior just because you can tweak it a lot after it makes the measurements. Yes, MCACC does not EQ the sub...big deal! You can tweak it yourself and I bet it will make your room shake when you do.

I have seen people say that, "Amplifiers in the same price range all sound the same." That is a load of garbage, I had a Pioneer Elite SC 57 and a Denon 2112CI and the Pioneer wiped the floor with the Denon, with or without the self calibration (my girlfriend, friends, and parents said the same as well). They both sounded awesome, but with 3 different speaker sets I had much better sound quality out of the Pioneer. Onkyo sounds nothing like Yamaha which sounds nothing like Pioneer and even Marantz sounds different than Denon (even though they share a lot of internals and they are made by the same company). Unless you have poor hearing, it is a very obvious difference. Ever receiver has a different sonic signature, they can sound similar but they are all unique. Then after you calibrate them using the auto-setup (MCACC, Audessey, YPAO, Tinnov, etc.) they will sound different even more.

The only thing about the Denon 3313CI is I bet it will be easier to setup for the average Joe (or Josephine). Pioneers are slightly more difficult to setup and operate but I think that is worth the strong points of the Pioneer vs the Denon. It should be noted that the 2012 Denon models are considered a step up/step back model because they added features while taking others away.

The Pioneer will sound better, have more power and headroom, look better, and has a 32 bit-DAC which should improve sound quality if you are using it for your PC sound or with other digital components. It has better video capability, and I do like Pioneer's MP3 restorer function better than Denon's as to me it just does a better job. The Pioneer also has a better video chip in it, and the Pioneer Elite's are sexy looking receivers.

I love both Denon and Pioneer, yet I think this is a no contest here. D3 Amplification + more power + Elite = winner Pioneer Elite SC-65.

Denon highlights:
  • Easier to operate
  • Good all around receiver with nice features
  • Excellent sound quality
  • Audessey XT which some prefer

Pioneer highlights:
  • D3 Amplification (runs cool and more advanced than A/B amps used in other receivers)
  • Better (but more revealing) sound quality
  • More headroom (louder at any given volume)
  • Better music restorer
  • Better video
  • More overall features
  • More Tweakable
  • 32 BIT/ 192 KHz DAC built in
  • Advanced MCACC (some say it's inferior to Audessey but I disgree and it is more tweakable post results)
  • Better suited for 4 OHM speakers, the Denon may drive them but you are probably going to shorten it's life in the long run.
  • Elite name for looks, but more importantly better built, better warranty than standard Pioneer receivers. Amber display with gold Pioneer badge and blue lights around the buttons. Looks amazing!

I hope this helps but like I said, either way you are getting an amazing receiver.
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post #12 of 18 Old 01-28-2013, 06:49 AM
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I went through the same decision. I initially bought the SC-65 because it was a great deal at 1K. However, having had an Onkyo 876 for almost 5 years I found I couldn't do without Dynamic Volume and Sub Equalization. Other than that I really liked the SC-65. I then moved on to the Denon 3313 which again I really liked and produced smoother bass (I assume due to Audyssey's work) and I had Dynamic Volume back!

The 3313 had no problem driving all 7 of my Polk 8 ohm speakers ranging from 89db to 91db sensitivity at reference level in my relatively large 2,650 cubic foot room that contains a large opening on the one side. However, because I had the powerful 876 in my setup for almost 5 years I ended up trading up to a Denon 4520 for the piece of mind of having extra amp headroom and XT32.

At any rate, althogh the 3313 worked very well for me, you may be in a different position with your speakers - in your case depending on how important sub equalization is to you I would say the Pioneer might be more up to the task in terms of amplification given the cool running class D amps and that it's rated for 4 ohm use. Then again, it's hard to find all channels driven tests at 4 ohm so I really don't know what either can or cannot do. It's important to remember that many have argued that for movies, an AVRs two channel ability might be more representative of real use scenarios so in that light based on available tests I would expect both to perform quite well even at 4 ohms - e.g. Home Theater tested last year's Denon 3312 at 202wpc with two channels driven into 4 ohms - similarly, they tested the two steps up Pioneer SC-68 at 192wpc with two channels driven into 4 ohms so you may be good either way.

My suggestion would be to do what I did buy from a place where you can try it out and see if it is up to the task in your setup.
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post #13 of 18 Old 01-28-2013, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EVT View Post

I went through the same decision. I initially bought the SC-65 because it was a great deal at 1K. However, having had an Onkyo 876 for almost 5 years I found I couldn't do without Dynamic Volume and Sub Equalization. Other than that I really liked the SC-65. I then moved on to the Denon 3313 which again I really liked and produced smoother bass (I assume due to Audyssey's work) and I had Dynamic Volume back!

The 3313 had no problem driving all 7 of my Polk 8 ohm speakers ranging from 89db to 91db sensitivity at reference level in my relatively large 2,650 cubic foot room that contains a large opening on the one side. However, because I had the powerful 876 in my setup for almost 5 years I ended up trading up to a Denon 4520 for the piece of mind of having extra amp headroom and XT32.

At any rate, althogh the 3313 worked very well for me, you may be in a different position with your speakers - in your case depending on how important sub equalization is to you I would say the Pioneer might be more up to the task in terms of amplification given the cool running class D amps and that it's rated for 4 ohm use. Then again, it's hard to find all channels driven tests at 4 ohm so I really don't know what either can or cannot do. It's important to remember that many have argued that for movies, an AVRs two channel ability might be more representative of real use scenarios so in that light based on available tests I would expect both to perform quite well even at 4 ohms - e.g. Home Theater tested last year's Denon 3312 at 202wpc with two channels driven into 4 ohms - similarly, they tested the two steps up Pioneer SC-68 at 192wpc with two channels driven into 4 ohms so you may be good either way.

My suggestion would be to do what I did buy from a place where you can try it out and see if it is up to the task in your setup.

I agree on the Dynamic Volume. I had the Denon 4310 and went to the Elite SC-57. I liked the features but couldn't get it dialed in to my preferences. I had the Pioneer for about ten months before moving to the Denon 4520. I'm so much happier and its really nice to have the subs eq'd. I think it really comes down to your preference and what you're use to. I'm personally a bigger fan of Audyssey.
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post #14 of 18 Old 01-28-2013, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks so much for your detailed reply. Since I'm a Best Buy Silver Reward member, I found a store (usually both the above models have to be special ordered, which makes a price match difficult).
I found a Marantz 7007 in stock, and got the price down to a very respectable price. (It is advertised on sale this week, but even that is higher than what I paid).

I have a full 45 days to evaluate and decide if I wish to keep it and after a week, so far, so good.

Only criticism is that the internet has to be hard wired, but I"m sure if I read into the specs a bit more that wouldn't have taken me by surprise.

It is very difficult to compare it to a 14 year old system an all the improvements made over that period of time, but the sounds on my particular system seem a little less harsh in places.

Having full HDMI switching without a sequence of HDMI monoprice splitters and a pelican optical/component switcher is a godsend.

Now, while hooking it up, my MT Quart giant subwoofer seems to be taking a dive. It is probably only a potentiometer. (least I hope).

Just curious, coming from 5.1 I wonder if I should explore other speaker options for the room (adding additionals that I already own). And if so, which are the most important to add?

Cheers.
M

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post #15 of 18 Old 01-28-2013, 08:44 AM
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In terms of which speakers are best to add, I would first look to see what speakers your room can accommodate - don't force what doesn't fit. for instance, from what I've read it looks like front wides offer the biggest improvement over a conventional 5.1 system but in my case it's not possible to add wides so that's out! Many argue that after wides front heights are next best - I plan to add heights eventually to my 7 channel setup but I remain skeptical that heights are a priority over surround back speakers as the addition of surround back speakers offered a noticeable upgrade in my setup.

WIth your current AVR you can always try out both and see which you prefer. By the way, I hope you got a pretty good deal on the Marantz as I suspect little separates it from the Denon 3313 which has a much lower MSRP - in fact the 7007 is closer in MSRP to the Denon 4520 than to the very similar 3313 which may be something to think about.

The Marantz does offer a few more connections including multi channel inputs over the 3313 but it appears to have the same amp section, video features, etc. It's not so much a criticism of the Marantz in terms of performance but Marantz isn't really a bang for your buck AVR. If your paid $200 - $300 over the price of a 3313 I would say it still represents good value - above that I think you may be better to jump to the Denon 4520, it gives up nothing to the 7007 and nets you XT32 and Sub EQ HT.

For example, the best deals I was able to manage in Toronto on the 3313, 7007 and 4520 respectively were $999, $1,599, and $1,850. For an extra $250 over the 7007 the Denon 4520 was a no brainer (for XT32 alone). On the other hand, the 3313 was a very capable performer and was a great bang for the buck.

Anyway, just something to think about since you have a very generous return policy with Best Buy.
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post #16 of 18 Old 01-29-2013, 05:12 PM
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Hey EVT where did you find the Denon 4520 for $1850
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post #17 of 18 Old 03-18-2013, 10:06 AM
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One of the biggest differences between Denon and PIoneer Elite is ease of use. The Denon settings for the many different sound fields which are available whether or not you are listening to DD5.1, DTS etc or a non DD tv station are not anywhere near as easy to locate and change. The Elite makes these settings upfront on the chassis or on the remote very easy to adjust. Also has Auto Surround or Optimum plus THX settings. Sound quality on both is close, but Class D amps run cooler and for sure are more efficient.
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post #18 of 18 Old 03-18-2013, 06:17 PM
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Quite the contrary, as the various surround modes are grouped into 4 main categories on Denon remotes and can be very easily selected as noted below ....


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