Low bass output when listening to SACDs using the DSD setting - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 109 Old 07-28-2013, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

Conversely, one could say kudos to Denon/Marantz for giving the end user options for dealing for differences in the way SACDs are mastered. The problem here seems to be inconsistency in disc mastering.

Kudos? For what?

Btw, a tip. I realized quick select settings remember their own set of channel level settings, so it's possible to program, e.g. Q1 button to have regular sub level for PCM playback and Q2 button for DSD playback. I guess it would be best to have two separate players to avoid accidental mixups. Like one for PCM playback only (CD/DVDA/BD), another for DSD only (SACD).
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post #92 of 109 Old 07-28-2013, 05:28 PM
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I'm curious. In a number of discussions previously in this thread, it was never agreed upon or definitively proved that decoding DSD in the AVR results in improved sound over decoding and passing PCM from the player, especially if the player is high quality, like an Oppo. So why are you obsessed with outputting DSD? Isn't it just easier to set the player to PCM and make life easier? This only affects SACD, and no other format.
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post #93 of 109 Old 07-28-2013, 06:54 PM
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Some AVRs have direct DSD to analog conversion hardware. So you don't need to convert it into PCM anywhere. You can't convert DSD to PCM without losing sound quality.
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post #94 of 109 Old 07-28-2013, 08:00 PM
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The discussion has centered around Denon and Marantz AVR's. Unless I am mistaken, these AVR's convert to PCM in order to apply DSP (Audyssey). If the signal must be converted to PCM somewhere in the path, then converting it in the player or the AVR should make no sonic difference.
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post #95 of 109 Old 07-28-2013, 08:49 PM
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You should be able to bypass all DSP processing when use DSD direct mode. No processings are allowed if DSD hardware is used anyway.
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post #96 of 109 Old 07-28-2013, 09:28 PM
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That's not the point. Many, if not most, Denon and Marantz AVR owners don't want to bypass DSP processing--they want to use Audyssey room correction to enhance the sound of their systems.
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post #97 of 109 Old 07-29-2013, 06:50 AM
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As far as music is concerned (SACD is nothing but pure music), room correction adds nothing but distortion to the music. Audio purist who want DSD all the way will not allow room correction to ruin it at the last stage. For those who don't care, PCM or DSD makes no difference to them.
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post #98 of 109 Old 07-29-2013, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

As far as music is concerned (SACD is nothing but pure music), room correction adds nothing but distortion to the music. Audio purist who want DSD all the way will not allow room correction to ruin it at the last stage. For those who don't care, PCM or DSD makes no difference to them.
The primary intent of room correction is to fix the "distortion" caused by a less than acoustically perfect room - the equipment and source material really don't care if it's music or a movie. If you've got a room that has perfect acoustics, then you don't need room correction. Otherwise, many of us have found that it does more good than harm to the end result. YMMV
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post #99 of 109 Old 07-29-2013, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

As far as music is concerned (SACD is nothing but pure music), room correction adds nothing but distortion to the music. Audio purist who want DSD all the way will not allow room correction to ruin it at the last stage. For those who don't care, PCM or DSD makes no difference to them.

I think we are in agreement now, thanks. While I would not characterize myself as someone who "doesn't care", I do feel that the advantages of room correction outweigh the potential (and IMO minor) degradation of the audio signal by a PCM conversion.
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post #100 of 109 Old 07-29-2013, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I think we are in agreement now, thanks. While I would not characterize myself as someone who "doesn't care", I do feel that the advantages of room correction outweigh the potential (and IMO minor) degradation of the audio signal by a PCM conversion.

Interesting, what if you just manage the bass and leave every thing else. Do you have a perfect room? Like a recording studio, if so I am envious smile.gif
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post #101 of 109 Old 07-29-2013, 09:07 AM
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An ideal DSD/SACD listening setup as outlined by Sony should contain 5 full-range speakers. a direct DSD to analog converter hardware and no room correction or bass management is possible in this setup. I'm not saying I'm the ones care about this kind of setup but there are plenty of out there who do care. There were high end receivers that do support this kind of setup for $$$.

As I mentioned before, DSD is not exactly easily mapped to PCM without losing audio quality. So, the conversion to PCM varies a lot from device to device. For example, my Sony BD player converts DSD to 176Khz PCM while my Pioneer DV-48AV converts to only 88Khz. And I have no idea what my Pioneer AVR internally converts to.
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post #102 of 109 Old 07-29-2013, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post An ideal DSD/SACD listening setup as outlined by Sony should contain 5 full-range speakers. a direct DSD to analog converter hardware and no room correction or bass management is possible in this setup. 

Yes that is why originally I had 802Ds all around :)

 

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post #103 of 109 Old 11-20-2013, 11:45 AM
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Hello everyone,

Reading this thread I was curious about how my gear outputs low bass with DSD setting. I have an Onkyo TX-NR809 AVR and an Oppo BDP-95 player. I have the SACD Output set to DSD on my Oppo by default, wich is handled very good by this AVR. I set both to Pure Audio and played the Beyoncé SACD wich have aggressive bass. I always listen with Audyssey EQ On so the bass in pure audio is lower, to begin, but when I set the Oppo to PCM I HEAR NO PERCEPTIBLE change in low bass. This test was made in multichannel (Beyoncé SACD) and Comparsa SACD in stereo. So I hear the same low bass volume in both modes DSD and PCM. I don't know if this A/V recveiver is decoding DSD to analogue directly or if it's converting the signal to PCM before I can hear any sound. Important to say that I haven't any kind of meter so I'm trusting my ears. Maybe, as some of you have pointed, this lower bass output is an issue in Denon and Marantz AVR.

By the way, I know that this is out of thread but as a matter of fact, the only difference between DSD and PCM I can hear is that DSD have less digital edge (if this expression can be use), but I can assure that is almost imperceptible.

Have a great surrounded music time!
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post #104 of 109 Old 11-20-2013, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Barbazul View Post

... This test was made in multichannel (Beyoncé SACD) and Comparsa SACD in stereo. So I hear the same low bass volume in both modes DSD and PCM...


Hi, welcome.  You should indeed hear no difference with Stereo recordings regarding bass when sending DSD vs PCM  as the -10dB decoding problem being discussed here is specific to the LFE (the .1 of the 5.1) channel content only.  Stereo has no such channel.  Even with a 5.1 disc you'll only hear a difference if significant bass content has been mastered into the .1 channel.  I don't have the Beyoncé SACD so cannot say whether there is or isn't.  The other possibility is that your Onkyo AVR is not subject to this problem when decoding DSD internally.  I have not followed this thread closely enough to know but perhaps others can comment.


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post #105 of 109 Old 11-20-2013, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Barbazul View Post

Hello everyone,

Reading this thread I was curious about how my gear outputs low bass with DSD setting. I have an Onkyo TX-NR809 AVR and an Oppo BDP-95 player. I have the SACD Output set to DSD on my Oppo by default, wich is handled very good by this AVR. I set both to Pure Audio and played the Beyoncé SACD wich have aggressive bass. I always listen with Audyssey EQ On so the bass in pure audio is lower, to begin, but when I set the Oppo to PCM I HEAR NO PERCEPTIBLE change in low bass. This test was made in multichannel (Beyoncé SACD) and Comparsa SACD in stereo. So I hear the same low bass volume in both modes DSD and PCM. I don't know if this A/V recveiver is decoding DSD to analogue directly or if it's converting the signal to PCM before I can hear any sound. Important to say that I haven't any kind of meter so I'm trusting my ears. Maybe, as some of you have pointed, this lower bass output is an issue in Denon and Marantz AVR.

By the way, I know that this is out of thread but as a matter of fact, the only difference between DSD and PCM I can hear is that DSD have less digital edge (if this expression can be use), but I can assure that is almost imperceptible.

Have a great surrounded music time!

As far as I know Onkyo processors that have the capability to decode DSD do not have the low LFE issue. I have a friend with the 5508 and in the menu there is a setting to boost LFE for DSD. There is no such option on my Denon 4311. I think that is the issue with Denon and Marantz processors as there is no option to apply a 10dB of boost to LFE when using DSD.

Bill

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post #106 of 109 Old 11-20-2013, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post


Hi, welcome.  You should indeed hear no difference with Stereo recordings regarding bass when sending DSD vs PCM  as the -10dB decoding problem being discussed here is specific to the LFE (the .1 of the 5.1) channel content only.  Stereo has no such channel.  Even with a 5.1 disc you'll only hear a difference if significant bass content has been mastered into the .1 channel.  I don't have the Beyoncé SACD so cannot say whether there is or isn't.  The other possibility is that your Onkyo AVR is not subject to this problem when decoding DSD internally.  I have not followed this thread closely enough to know but perhaps others can comment.

Hi, thank you for your welcome, I've been a follower of this site for some years but I don't post so often. You're so right with the 2 channel clarification, as you wrote, it can't be an issue.

Bill, my Onkyo haven't this setting to boost LFE for DSD, it's a modest model but sounds great =)
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post #107 of 109 Old 11-20-2013, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Barbazul View Post

Bill, my Onkyo haven't this setting to boost LFE for DSD, it's a modest model but sounds great =)

I just checked the 809 manual and there is an LFE level setting for the 809. Below is from page 52 of the 809 manual. The 809 might be a "modest model" but I'm sure it sounds great. It also has a DSD LFE setting that the more expensive 4311 doesn't have.

LFE Level
■Dolby Digital*1, DTS*2, Multich PCM, Dolby
TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio, DSD*3
􀁠–􀀲dB, –20dB, –10dB, or 0dB
With these settings, you can set the level of the LFE (Low
Frequency Effects) channel individually for each input
sources.
If you find that low-frequency effects are too loud when
using one of these sources, change the setting to –20 dB or
–􀀲 dB.
*1 Dolby Digital and Dolby Digital Plus sources
*2 DTS and DTS-HD High Resolution sources
*3 DSD (Super Audio CD) sources

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post #108 of 109 Old 11-21-2013, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I just checked the 809 manual and there is an LFE level setting for the 809. Below is from page 52 of the 809 manual. The 809 might be a "modest model" but I'm sure it sounds great. It also has a DSD LFE setting that the more expensive 4311 doesn't have....

Bill

Well well, I must say thank you Bill! As soon as I saw your post I went to home and double check and you were right. The default LFE value for all the inputs is 0, but if it sounds too high you can adjust to -10, -20 or -infinite. This is an excellent discovery as the Multich PCM (DVD-A) LFE volume was a little high to my test, now I can switch between SACD and DVD-A without adjusting the LFE in my control. Great! I also discovered an angle setting for the FR and FL channels that I think gives a better wider space sound depending on the value selected, I'll evaluate it.

Thanks for the finding Bill =)
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post #109 of 109 Old 11-21-2013, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Barbazul View Post

Well well, I must say thank you Bill! As soon as I saw your post I went to home and double check and you were right. The default LFE value for all the inputs is 0, but if it sounds too high you can adjust to -10, -20 or -infinite. This is an excellent discovery as the Multich PCM (DVD-A) LFE volume was a little high to my test, now I can switch between SACD and DVD-A without adjusting the LFE in my control. Great! I also discovered an angle setting for the FR and FL channels that I think gives a better wider space sound depending on the value selected, I'll evaluate it.

Thanks for the finding Bill =)

My pleasure smile.gif. I'm glad finding those settings was helpful.

Bill

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