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post #1 of 109 Old 09-18-2012, 06:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Below are a two posts from the Denon 4311 thread regarding low bass output when listening to SACDs using the DSD setting of my Oppo 83SE. My findings although totally unscientific indicate that there is an issue with low bass output with the DSD setting for both MCH and 2CH SACDs. I have read several posts where others are experiencing this as well. Is anyone aware as to what is causing this issue? Is it an issue with the Oppo players or is it an issue with Denon AVR/prepros? Is anyone else experiening this issue with other SACD players and AVR/prepros? Any thoughts on this subject from those better informed on DSD and this issue would be appreciated smile.gif.

6/19/12: I had some time this morning to do a DSD vs. PCM LFE HDMI bitstream comparison using my 83SE. I used the track So Far Away from the Dire Straits Brothers In Arms SACD. I did what I consider a very basic comparison leaving all my settings with Audyssey and crossovers as I would normally listen. Using my trusty Rat Shack SPL meter to level match the MV of both the DSD and the PCM settings. I found that the PCM setting was 2dB louder so for each comparison I adjusted the MV to reflect the difference. I shut of my my amp so that only the sub was playing and found that the LFE level for DSD was about 8dB lower than the PCM setting. I checked the SPL readings several times making sure everything was correct for all my comparisons. So it appears that in my system and as others have found that the LFE signal is lower when chosing the DSD setting. So from now on I will be using the PCM setting when listening to MCH SACDs.


9/14/12: I did a quick comparison between DSD and PCM with a 2CH SACD today. Using the Stereo mode using Audyssey (Flat without DynEQ) I found the level of my sub to be about 10db lower with the DSD setting. I shut off my amp and with only my sub playing using my SPL meter to measure the levels. This indicates to me that it is not just an LFE issue when using DSD. So it looks like now I'll only being using the PCM setting. Has it been determined if this is an issue with the 4311 or the Oppo players?

* I wanted to add that the above quoted posts are ones I made in the 4311 thread *

Bill

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post #2 of 109 Old 09-18-2012, 06:53 AM
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This has been an issue ever since universal players started appearing with MC analog outputs (my first experience with this was when I had a Pioneer 45a uni player). In fact, I recall contributing to an article on HTF on the subject a good 9+ years ago.

Have you seen this thread?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/748147/lfe-subwoofers-and-interconnects-explained

I have an Oppo 93 and a Denon 3808. I "solved" the problem by letting the Oppo convert to PCM.

Brian
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post #3 of 109 Old 09-18-2012, 07:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGLeduc View Post

This has been an issue ever since universal players started appearing with MC analog outputs (my first experience with this was when I had a Pioneer 45a uni player). In fact, I recall contributing to an article on HTF on the subject a good 9+ years ago.
Have you seen this thread?
http://www.avsforum.com/t/748147/lfe-subwoofers-and-interconnects-explained
I have an Oppo 93 and a Denon 3808. I "solved" the problem by letting the Oppo convert to PCM.
Brian

Brian,

Thanks for posting the link and your thoughts on this issue smile.gif. So it appears that with DSD the +10dB boost is not being applied and that is the cause for low DSD LFE output. That makes sense to me and I'm surprised that current universal players have no implemented a +10dB LFE increase for DSD. But the question that remains for me is why I'm seeing low bass output from 2CH SACDs where there is no LFE channel.

Bill

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post #4 of 109 Old 09-18-2012, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Brian,
Thanks for posting the link and your thoughts on this issue smile.gif. So it appears that with DSD the +10dB boost is not being applied and that is the cause for low DSD LFE output. That makes sense to me and I'm surprised that current universal players have no implemented a +10dB LFE increase for DSD. But the question that remains for me is why I'm seeing low bass output from 2CH SACDs where there is no LFE channel.
Bill

I am not sure what's up with the quoted 2CH comment. I use the Denon to bass manage 2 channel sources, and have not encountered an issue with sub level. Is he using an analog or digital connection, and where is BM being done; the player or the AVR? FTR, my connection is HDMI.

Brian
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post #5 of 109 Old 09-18-2012, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGLeduc View Post

I am not sure what's up with the quoted 2CH comment. I use the Denon to bass manage 2 channel sources, and have not encountered an issue with sub level. Is he using an analog or digital connection, and where is BM being done; the player or the AVR? FTR, my connection is HDMI.
Brian

Brian,

The quoted 2CH comment was from me on a quick comparison I did recently. The connection was HDMI and the bass management is being done in the 4311. What I was doing was switching between PCM and DSD with my main amp off so only my sub was playing. With that the output from my sub was much lower when using the DSD setting. Have you tried using the DSD setting in your player for 2CH SACDs with the Stereo mode of the Denon?

Bill

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post #6 of 109 Old 09-18-2012, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Brian,
The quoted 2CH comment was from me on a quick comparison I did recently. The connection was HDMI and the bass management is being done in the 4311. What I was doing was switching between PCM and DSD with my main amp off so only my sub was playing. With that the output from my sub was much lower when using the DSD setting. Have you tried using the DSD setting in your player for 2CH SACDs with the Stereo mode of the Denon?
Bill

That I have not, but it certainly seems odd that it would affect the bass level.

I would think you would get a straight transfer of what is on the SACD. Using BM or Audyssey in the AVR would mean a conversion from DSD to PCM at the AVR. If you went Pure Direct, you could stay DSD all the way to the DAC's, but then you would not get any BM or Audyssey, and thus no sub at all.

I will give it shot when time permits.

Brian
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post #7 of 109 Old 09-18-2012, 08:36 AM
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Subscribed, thanks for starting this thread Bill.
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post #8 of 109 Old 09-18-2012, 11:46 AM
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Bill, I can confirm what you have reported. For whatever reason, when sending DSD to the AVR, and engaging BM, the sub level dropps significantly. I did not measure, but I had to run it's trim up to the maximum allowable (+12) to bring it into subjective balance with the L/R.

As you reported, sending PCM from the player seemed to allow for a normal balance.

I also note that when selecting DSD Direct mode on the AVR (this defeating BM), the L/R's appear to produce a normal amount of bass, but as soon as I select stereo (which is set for 2.1) the bass level goes off a cliff.

As mentioned, I had never noticed this before since I have been running PCM from the Oppo almost since day one, and rarely listen to 2CH stuff on that system.

Not sure where to go from here. I have attempted to engage Denon Tech support on the issue of low sub levels in the past, and found it to be completely fruitless. Having said that, if your intention is to use BM and/or Audyssey, the AVR will have to do a DSD to PCM conversion anyway. I rationalized that doing it in the player first was a reasonable workaround.

Brian
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post #9 of 109 Old 09-18-2012, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGLeduc View Post

Bill, I can confirm what you have reported. For whatever reason, when sending DSD to the AVR, and engaging BM, the sub level dropps significantly. I did not measure, but I had to run it's trim up to the maximum allowable (+12) to bring it into subjective balance with the L/R.
As you reported, sending PCM from the player seemed to allow for a normal balance.
I also note that when selecting DSD Direct mode on the AVR (this defeating BM), the L/R's appear to produce a normal amount of bass, but as soon as I select stereo (which is set for 2.1) the bass level goes off a cliff.
As mentioned, I had never noticed this before since I have been running PCM from the Oppo almost since day one, and rarely listen to 2CH stuff on that system.
Not sure where to go from here. I have attempted to engage Denon Tech support on the issue of low sub levels in the past, and found it to be completely fruitless. Having said that, if your intention is to use BM and/or Audyssey, the AVR will have to do a DSD to PCM conversion anyway. I rationalized that doing it in the player first was a reasonable workaround.
Brian

Brian,

Thanks for doing the comparison so quickly smile.gif. It seems like this is a common issue as a few others that have also reported the same issue. I'm just curious if it is an issue with Oppo players or other players as well? The other factor is if this is a Denon AVR/prepro issue or if it is found in other AVR/prepros? Or is just an inherent issue when using DSD. I will be keeping my 83SE set to PCM as for the most part I'm using BM and Audyssey.

Bill

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post #10 of 109 Old 09-18-2012, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Brian,
Thanks for doing the comparison so quickly smile.gif. It seems like this is a common issue as a few others that have also reported the same issue. I'm just curious if it is an issue with Oppo players or other players as well? The other factor is if this is a Denon AVR/prepro issue or if it is found in other AVR/prepros? Or is just an inherent issue when using DSD. I will be keeping my 83SE set to PCM as for the most part I'm using BM and Audyssey.
Bill

I am actually wondering if the problem is in the player at all or in the AVR/Processor. My understanding (subject to correction) is that when using HDMI, the player does not do any BM before it sends out DSD or PCM. BM in the player is only applicable to the analog outs. As such, what it sends out via HDMI should be full range signals for each channel.

The AVR, when receiving PCM does not need to do any additional conversion to then be able to implement BM, Time Alignment, Audyssey, etc. And by all accounts that all works fine. But if DSD is sent, the AVR must do a DSD to PCM conversion, and somewhere along the line, that is where the .1 channel level issue occurs.

Based on what we have observed, 2 CH DSD is sent out unmolested with proper levels of bass. It is only when converting to PCM and applying BM that the .1 channel issue arrises. That says to me that the problem is in the AVR. There must be something in there that sees that the incoming signal is DSD which then causes the appropriate .1 channel boost to not occur.

Another level of comparison would be to use the 5.1 analogs from the player and see what happens comparing SACD to PCM sources when BM is enabled. I assume that the player will internally have to do a DSD to PCM conversion before BM, but does it handle the levels between SACD and PCM sources correctly? There maybe permutations of the underlying issue on both ends. I will have to bow out on that one, as I am disinclined to to reconnect my analogs. :-)

Brian
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post #11 of 109 Old 09-18-2012, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGLeduc View Post

Bill, I can confirm what you have reported. For whatever reason, when sending DSD to the AVR, and engaging BM, the sub level dropps significantly. I did not measure, but I had to run it's trim up to the maximum allowable (+12) to bring it into subjective balance with the L/R.

As you reported, sending PCM from the player seemed to allow for a normal balance.

I also note that when selecting DSD Direct mode on the AVR (this defeating BM), the L/R's appear to produce a normal amount of bass, but as soon as I select stereo (which is set for 2.1) the bass level goes off a cliff.

As mentioned, I had never noticed this before since I have been running PCM from the Oppo almost since day one, and rarely listen to 2CH stuff on that system.

Not sure where to go from here. I have attempted to engage Denon Tech support on the issue of low sub levels in the past, and found it to be completely fruitless. Having said that, if your intention is to use BM and/or Audyssey, the AVR will have to do a DSD to PCM conversion anyway. I rationalized that doing it in the player first was a reasonable workaround.

Brian

+1 , this is exactly what I find when using bitstream DSD (INCLUDING 2 CH STEREO SACD)
from both Marantz UD-5005 and Denon DBP-A100/aka 4010 to both AVR-4310 & 11.
Thanks for checking it out , makes me feel a little better seeing a few others noticing this,
many times I have thought my ears were playing tricks on me and/or level mismatch was the
reason I "heard" this...very glad that Bill started this thread, I much appreciate more of us
involved in debate and discussion regarding SACD DSD bass.
David
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post #12 of 109 Old 09-18-2012, 01:50 PM
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Hey Guys,

a very interesting thread so far, and just for kicks I'll do some comparisons tonight, even though my AVR is a 2809CI and my player is an Oppo BDP-80, all linked by HDMI cables though.
BTW, I do have the SACD Dire Straits BIA and some more titles, so I'll see what's gonna happen and shall return with comments.

Regards, Chuck
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post #13 of 109 Old 09-18-2012, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidbarrickman View Post

+1 , this is exactly what I find when using bitstream DSD (INCLUDING 2 CH STEREO SACD)
from both Marantz UD-5005 and Denon DBP-A100/aka 4010 to both AVR-4310 & 11.
Thanks for checking it out , makes me feel a little better seeing a few others noticing this,
many times I have thought my ears were playing tricks on me and/or level mismatch was the
reason I "heard" this...very glad that Bill started this thread, I much appreciate more of us
involved in debate and discussion regarding SACD DSD bass.
David

David,

Thanks for your thoughts. At least it seems that this issue is not isolated to Oppo players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avliner View Post

Hey Guys,
a very interesting thread so far, and just for kicks I'll do some comparisons tonight, even though my AVR is a 2809CI and my player is an Oppo BDP-80, all linked by HDMI cables though.
BTW, I do have the SACD Dire Straits BIA and some more titles, so I'll see what's gonna happen and shall return with comments.

Chuck,

I would be interested to see if you have the same issues the rest of us are having. I'm assuming you will


I find it interesting that all of those that have posted have Denon AVRs. It would be great to get some feedback from Onkyo and Integra owners. I'm not sure if Pioneer and Yamaha AVRs have the ability to decode DSD directly if that even matters.

Bill

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post #14 of 109 Old 09-18-2012, 03:36 PM
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Howdy Bill,

just came back from a quick listening over at my HT room and you know what?? You're pretty darn right on your assumptions!!

Mater of fact, I put in the following SACD's on my BDP-80:

1) Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms ( I also have the HDCD version though and the bass is way better than the SACD, go figure...);
2) Diana Krall - The Girl in the Other Room;
3) Rosemary Clooney - Girl Singer;
4) Pink Floyd - The Dark Side of the Moon and
5) The Who - Live at the Royal Albert.

Yes, in all tracks I've listened to, there was a clear lack of bass indeed ( always on stereo mode, with and without Audyssey on Flat ).
Oh, BTW, let me tell you about my rig:

AVR = Denon 2809CI;
BDP = Oppo 80 ( also have a 983H DVD, which hasn't been used for this purpose );
AMP = Emo UPA -7;
SPEAKERS = a full 7.1 SVS, being: 3 X SCS-01 for the front array, plus 04 X SBS -01 for the S/SB duties, all supported by a PB-10 ISD SW to carry the heavy burden.

Furthermore, the SW LFE level is always set at "0" dB in the Denon and the volume knob is at 10 O' clock in the back of the SW.

I've been tweaking between DSD and PCM at the Oppo's menu and in all cases, DSD sounded way louder than PCM, no matter what.
I did as well change the HDMI output from PCM to Bitstream and no changes at all, so...

... bet you're right Bill... at least with Denons, but let's wait to get more guys coming in with different brands though, because, as you know... the truth is out there... wink.gif

Regards, Chuck
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when posting in this thread please post your AVR model in addition to your shiny disc player, it will be interesting to see if the lack of +10dB LFE boost is universal across AVR manufacturers....

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post #16 of 109 Old 09-18-2012, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I would be interested to see if you have the same issues the rest of us are having. I'm assuming you will
I find it interesting that all of those that have posted have Denon AVRs. It would be great to get some feedback from Onkyo and Integra owners.

I was wondering if it also affected different AV receiver manufactures as well. As I am looking to update my old Marantz AV receiver to the latest model and one of the reasons is to get proper SACD playback from my player. I always though that where possible it was best to send the DSD audio stream directly to the AV receiver and let it do the decoding, rather than have the SACD player do the DSD to PCM decoding before sending it to the AV receiver.

Also wondering if anybody has experimented with the DSD Direct setting of there AV receiver if it has this option and if it has any effect on the Bass Management. Enabling Source Direct. Thus removing any bass management, time alignment, EQ management and other post processing done by the AV receiver.
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post #17 of 109 Old 09-18-2012, 04:41 PM
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Here is my posting from the 4311 thread:

 

"Again, slightly OT, and slightly stale, but I ordered and received the two recommended SACD's with test tones ("Stay in Tune with PentaTone", a sampler with a series of test tones at the end, and "Tchaikovsky 1812", a classical sampler , also with a few test tones).

 

Recall, the original discussion pertained to whether the LFE channel was affected by configuring the Oppo to output SACD as DSD, or PCM. My claim was that the LFE signal level was "significantly lower" when the SACD signal was output as DSD and decoded in the 4311. At the time, I had no test disks to test this claim. The purpose of this post is to report my findings.

 

Both new SACD's have test tones for the LFE channel. Using these tracks, I conducted the following test:

 

- Configured the Oppo to output PCM.

- Played the LFE test tone.

- Adjusted the master volume so that I was reading a 75dB level on my RS SPL.

- In the Oppo menu, switched the SACD output to DSD (note, when switching the output format, the Oppo automatically re-starts the current track, which is useful for A-B comparisons).

- Observed on the RS SPL that the level was now ~65dB, a -10dB difference.

- Switched back to PCM, and the level returned to 75dB.

 

So, it seems that there really is a difference in LFE output between the two settings.

 

Why have I noticed this difference when playing multi-channel SACD music? I thought that mixers avoided using the .1 LFE channel when mixing music. But I have a several bass-heavy music SACD's, and I can definitely hear the difference. If mixers are indeed using the LFE channel, doesn't this suggest that the Oppo should always be configured for PCM output to preserve the LFE channel level?"

 

Here is a thread from this forum from 2006 that discusses the 10dB LFE issue:  http://www.avsforum.com/t/748147/lfe-subwoofers-and-interconnects-explained.  The first post contains a summary, and is quite interesting reading.

 

I originally encountered this issue when I had a Denon 4308 with the Oppo BDP-83 player.  Since then, I have upgraded to the Denon 4311 and the Oppo BDP-93 player.  The 10dB LFE with DSD issue existed on the first configuration, and persists on the new configuration. 

 

Thanks for starting this thread, Bill.  IMO, the 10dB issue is really a non-issue since I always output in PCM from the player.  Conversion to PCM in the Oppo is as good an audio quality as converting to PCM in the Denon.

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post #18 of 109 Old 09-19-2012, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g12345567 View Post

I was wondering if it also affected different AV receiver manufactures as well. As I am looking to update my old Marantz AV receiver to the latest model and one of the reasons is to get proper SACD playback from my player. I always though that where possible it was best to send the DSD audio stream directly to the AV receiver and let it do the decoding, rather than have the SACD player do the DSD to PCM decoding before sending it to the AV receiver.
Also wondering if anybody has experimented with the DSD Direct setting of there AV receiver if it has this option and if it has any effect on the Bass Management. Enabling Source Direct. Thus removing any bass management, time alignment, EQ management and other post processing done by the AV receiver.

I did in post #8.

DSD Direct of Stereo Sources appears to have a "normal" amount of bass when played over the L&R pair.

Of course, as soon as BM is enabled, the AVR does an internal DSD to PCM conversion, which exhibits the problem.

Brian
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post #19 of 109 Old 09-19-2012, 06:47 AM
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I always though that where possible it was best to send the DSD audio stream directly to the AV receiver and let it do the decoding, rather than have the SACD player do the DSD to PCM decoding before sending it to the AV receiver.
 

 

Why is this best?  If you have a quality player, it will likely do just as good a job decoding as the AVR.  A number of participants in theis discussion have Oppo players, which have high-quality decoding capabilities.  Your experiences may differ, but I have never been able to hear a difference in audio quality when converting to PCM in my Oppo (other than the 10dB issue we are discussiong).

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post #20 of 109 Old 09-20-2012, 06:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Well I just found some more interesting information when checking DSD to PCM sub levels using the Dire Straits BIA 5.1 SACD. I used the The Man's Too Strong track at the 40-50 second mark. I tried a number of different configurations with DSD and PCM. The biggest surprise was no LFE signal when using DSD Direct with HDMI and the 5.1 analog input eek.gif The BIA SACD is a 5.1 MCH so I can't understand why there is no .1 signal when using DSD Direct. Could someone else check this with their system to see if they also find this issue.

DSD Direct (HDMI) no LFE output.
DSD Direct (5.1 analog) no LFE output.
PCM Direct (5.1 analog) LFE output. (not measured)
DSD Multi Ch In (HDMI) -3 to -4 dB measured with Radio Shack SPL meter at the 70 setting.
PCM Multi Ch In (HDMI) +4 to +6 dB measured with Radio Shack SPL meter at the 70 setting.

*I wanted to add that the above was measured with Audyssey on so the DSD measurement was with a DSD to PCM conversion*

Bill

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post #21 of 109 Old 09-20-2012, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g12345567 View Post

I was wondering if it also affected different AV receiver manufactures as well. As I am looking to update my old Marantz AV receiver to the latest model and one of the reasons is to get proper SACD playback from my player. I always though that where possible it was best to send the DSD audio stream directly to the AV receiver and let it do the decoding, rather than have the SACD player do the DSD to PCM decoding before sending it to the AV receiver.
Also wondering if anybody has experimented with the DSD Direct setting of there AV receiver if it has this option and if it has any effect on the Bass Management. Enabling Source Direct. Thus removing any bass management, time alignment, EQ management and other post processing done by the AV receiver.

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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Why is this best?  If you have a quality player, it will likely do just as good a job decoding as the AVR.  A number of participants in theis discussion have Oppo players, which have high-quality decoding capabilities.  Your experiences may differ, but I have never been able to hear a difference in audio quality when converting to PCM in my Oppo (other than the 10dB issue we are discussiong).
It's all about integrity of DSD bitstream and it's resilience when transferred from player to AVR. Much less vulnerable to corruption that 24-bit PCM over HDMI.
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post #22 of 109 Old 09-20-2012, 07:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Iain- View Post

It's all about integrity of DSD bitstream and it's resilience when transferred from player to AVR. Much less vulnerable to corruption that 24-bit PCM over HDMI.

This could be true but can one actually detect an audible difference between DSD and PCM? The other factor is what I just found in post #20 inregard to a missing LFE signal when playing a 5.1 SACD in DSD Direct. Maybe I did something wrong in the process of my comparisons but why would the .1 signal of a 5.1 SACD be missing? Maybe the BIA SACD is not really a 5.1 SACD but a 5.0 SACD wink.gif. Whether DSD Direct presents the audio from an SACD in the purest form there sure seems to be some issues with it.

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post #23 of 109 Old 09-20-2012, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

This could be true but can one actually detect an audible difference between DSD and PCM? The other factor is what I just found in post #20 inregard to a missing LFE signal when playing a 5.1 SACD in DSD Direct. Maybe I did something wrong in the process of my comparisons but why would the .1 signal of a 5.1 SACD be missing? Maybe the BIA SACD is not really a 5.1 SACD but a 5.0 SACD wink.gif. Whether DSD Direct presents the audio from an SACD in the purest form there sure seems to be some issues with it.
Bill
Well, I was hesitant to mention it, but it's down to that one word:
Jitter. eek.gif

.....on HDMI, and it's potential to corrupt anything vulnerable. I personally think it's a non-issue on current HDMI, but it could be an intermittent problem with certain signal levels. Fortunately, the AVR I'm considering has a solution to this. Most AVR don't.

For the 5.0 v 5.1 SA-CD issue, your AVR should display this information on front display.

BTW, I'm not an audiophile. Just a very interested music lover. wink.gif
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post #24 of 109 Old 09-20-2012, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Well I just found some more interesting information when checking DSD to PCM sub levels using the Dire Straits BIA 5.1 SACD. I used the The Man's Too Strong track at the 40-50 second mark...
DSD Multi Ch In (HDMI) -3 to -4 dB measured with Radio Shack SPL meter at the 70 setting.
PCM Multi Ch In (HDMI) +4 to +6 dB measured with Radio Shack SPL meter at the 70 setting.
*I wanted to add that the above was measured with Audyssey on so the DSD measurement was with a DSD to PCM conversion*
Bill

Bill thanks for starting this thread. I've been following along with interest, though very busy acquiring and calibrating new speakers. smile.gif
And yes, I had been skipping my Audiophiles Anonymous meetings in order to peruse Agon and that led to a full-blown relapse. eek.gif

Bill, could you measure the SPL with the satellite ch amp on but sub(s) unplugged (don't change any settings in the AVR or player other than switching from PCM to DSDbitstream) for the same passage? That would give us a benchmark to put the sub readings in perspective.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #25 of 109 Old 09-20-2012, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain- View Post

It's all about integrity of DSD bitstream and it's resilience when transferred from player to AVR. Much less vulnerable to corruption that 24-bit PCM over HDMI.

Is this theoretical, or measurable? If measurable, I would sure like to see some measurements.

Edit: I agree this is off-topic, so let's move on.
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post #26 of 109 Old 09-20-2012, 10:56 AM
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Bill, unfortunately I don't have the Dire Straits BIA SACD, so I can't test whether there is a .1 signal or not.

However, I ran some tests to see if I could duplicate your results. When I ran the tests, I was able to isolate the LFE channel by making two configuration changes to my 4311: first, I set the speaker configuration so that all surround speakers are off. Second, I turned off my XPA-3 amp that is driving the LCR speakers. This left me with only my subs active, so this makes it really easy to hear what is going on in the LFE channel.

I selected the Steely Dan Gaucho 5.1 SACD because of its robust bass content. I then cycled through the following four inputs:

- Multi CH DSD
- Multi CH PCM
- Direct DSD
- Direct PCM

For the two Multi CH tests, I manually turned Audyssey off (since Direct disables Audyssey automatically). I did not measure anything using an SPL (no time), so the results are based on what I heard. In other words, I could easily tell whether the LFE content was louder or softer, I just didn't measure by how much.

Surprisingly, each of the four modes had audibly different LFE levels. In order of loudest LFE to softest:

- Multi CH PCM (as expected)
- Multi Ch DSD
- Direct PCM (Significantly softer LFE than Multi CH)
- Direct DSD (LFE was very faint, but still audible)

So, I don't know if this tells us anything we didn't already know. I don't use Direct ever, so I wasn't sure what to expect. Are there any surprises in these results?
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post #27 of 109 Old 09-20-2012, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain- View Post

Well, I was hesitant to mention it, but it's down to that one word:
Jitter. eek.gif
.....on HDMI, and it's potential to corrupt anything vulnerable. I personally think it's a non-issue on current HDMI, but it could be an intermittent problem with certain signal levels. Fortunately, the AVR I'm considering has a solution to this. Most AVR don't.
For the 5.0 v 5.1 SA-CD issue, your AVR should display this information on front display.
BTW, I'm not an audiophile. Just a very interested music lover. wink.gif

There are plenty of threads in AVS and elsewhere where you can debate the audibility, or lack thereof of Jitter, and HDMI, and the fragility of DSD signal transfer.

This thread is not one of those.

The issue at hand is a Bass Management/Sub Level error when DSD signals are present.

I am sure we would all appreciate staying on topic.

Brian
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post #28 of 109 Old 09-20-2012, 11:56 AM
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Interesting thread... I recently upgraded my AVR from an Onkyo TX-SR706 to a Marantz SR6006 and noticed that my SACDs sounded "thin" after the switch. This would certainly explain things as the Marantz and Denons are very similar inside. This is with my Oppo 980H set to output DSD. I presume the Onkyo AVR handled DSD natively since it's display had a DSD indicator that would light when playing an SACD.

I still have the Onkyo so I'll try to do some tests before I sell it.
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post #29 of 109 Old 09-20-2012, 12:10 PM
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Interesting thread... I recently upgraded my AVR from an Onkyo TX-SR706 to a Marantz SR6006 and noticed that my SACDs sounded "thin" after the switch. This would certainly explain things as the Marantz and Denons are very similar inside. This is with my Oppo 980H set to output DSD. I presume the Onkyo AVR handled DSD natively since it's display had a DSD indicator that would light when playing an SACD.
I still have the Onkyo so I'll try to do some tests before I sell it.

Does the 980H allow internal DSD to PCM conversion for DSD sources? That would be a simple, quick test to carry out.

The kicker is, I do not recall that there are any AVRs or PrePros that can do BM, Audyssey, etc., in DSD; it converts internally to PCM first. So, converting in the player vs. in the AVR or Pre/Pro should have no sonic consequence assuming you want to use BM, Audyssey, etc.

Brian
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post #30 of 109 Old 09-20-2012, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain- View Post

Well, I was hesitant to mention it, but it's down to that one word:
Jitter. eek.gif
.....on HDMI, and it's potential to corrupt anything vulnerable. I personally think it's a non-issue on current HDMI, but it could be an intermittent problem with certain signal levels. Fortunately, the AVR I'm considering has a solution to this. Most AVR don't.
For the 5.0 v 5.1 SA-CD issue, your AVR should display this information on front display.
BTW, I'm not an audiophile. Just a very interested music lover. wink.gif

I would appreciate it as will others if you keep your posts on topic as this is not a thread about jitter. The topic is about DSD and possible low bass issues with it.

Bill

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