The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 109 - AVS Forum
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post #3241 of 9968 Old 03-04-2013, 06:24 PM
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Hi,

I wanted to ask a quick 11.2 setup question as this will be my first time adding an additional amplifier to my setup. I have a Emotiva UMP-500 on the way and I wasn't sure which would be the preferred setup (if there is one).

Option #1
4520 Powers
- All fronts (LRC, Wides, Highs)
-- L/R - Rocket RS850s
-- C - Rocket RSC200
-- Wides Rocket RS250
-- Height Rocket RS150

UMP-500 Powers
- All 4 surrounds (RSS300)

Option #2
4520 powers all surrounds and high speakers
UMP-500 Powers LCR and wides


Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts.

T.Wells


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post #3242 of 9968 Old 03-04-2013, 06:26 PM
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It looks fine Mr Wells

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post #3243 of 9968 Old 03-04-2013, 06:29 PM
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@ T.Wells -

Of the two options, only option #2 would work as at a minimum either the FL/FR or FHL/FHR speakers must be powered by the external amp.

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post #3244 of 9968 Old 03-04-2013, 06:34 PM
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I have been reading this and many other Denon AVR threads for a number of years now, and have really enjoyed the interchange between all of the site users. I have solved many issues based on the wonderful responses from members such as Batpig, JDSmoothie and others. So many thanks to all members.

I am currently on my 3rd Denon AVR.
First one was an AVR-2808, it was used as a stereo component with Marantz CD-602 DC player, driving Yamaha NS1000 Monitor speakers ( > 30 years old).
I then added surround capability with Sony Blu-Ray , B&W 625 Centre and 2 B&W M1 compacts as the surrounds. Also added an REL T-3 subwoofer
I was now into the wonderful world of real quality Home Theatre and all that comes with that.
Eventually added Sonos connect, using a WD NAS Drive and Apple Lossless music via ITunes. This made a major change to how I listened to and enjoyed music.

About 2 years ago I changed the AVR-2808 to an AVR-2310 (mainly for extra HDMI inputs and processing capability), power remained much the same. The 2808 is still in use in another room.

I had been planning on replacing my aging Yamaha speakers for some time ( last 2-3 years), and finally found their replacements. VAF i33 Signature , floor stander speakers. A fine replacement for my Yamahas. While going through this process , I was interested in improving the power available by using separate power amps ( e.g. Emotiva, Anthem etc..). I visited the Australian Hi-Fi show in October 2012 and saw the Denon AVR-4520 for the first time , and decided that this is what I really want. I did not need to be convinced on the quality or sound, I was already happy with my previous 2 receivers, so straight away placed an order. At the same time I wanted to simplify my setup and get the best possible Video and Audio performance within my price range ( ~ $1000 AUD), so I decided on the Denon DBT3313 Universal Player , since they are both designed to work seamlessly together. This would replace my existing Blu-Ray ( now a Panasonic) and Marantz CD player.

The speakers were finally delivered 2 weeks ago and what a joy, the sound and picture using the AVR4520 - DBT3313 ( HD Link) combination is amazing, I am listening to CD's that sound fresh and new , when compared to my previous combination.

I wanted to put this information out in the forum, because I have been a little disheartened by the tone lately in this forum , where people seem to be pre-occupied with what on the surface seem trivial issues ( e.g. Are the power amps in the 4520 good enough, is ventilation adequate etc.....). Even though they are important, sometimes I think it is really good to just sit down, relax, put on your favourite CD or Blu Ray, get a glass of wine or a cold beer , and just enjoy all of the music and images that equipment of this calibre can provide. Ultimately that is what it is all about.
This forum ( and other Denon forums) has made it fun and informative for me along my journey, so everyone keep up the good work.
HazChem and farkem like this.
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post #3245 of 9968 Old 03-04-2013, 06:41 PM
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pmcduie,


^^^ Refreshing post...smile.gif

Ray

 

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post #3246 of 9968 Old 03-04-2013, 07:21 PM
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pmcduie

Nice..
I had the 2809, 4311 and now the 4520.

IMHO, the 2809 was the warmest sounding, and the 4520 the brightest, so I had to activate Cinema EQ.
Otherwise it has been a good experience.

I am actually having a lot of fun using Airplay with my music collection. Worth the upgrade over the 4311.

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post #3247 of 9968 Old 03-04-2013, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post


Look at these thread's in DIY speaker section.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1458753/poll-how-do-you-set-your-gain-structure/60
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1457195/great-replacement-for-o-scope-to-set-gain-structure

You have the DIP switches set correctly on back, and that other push in/out boost switch?

Lots of heavy reading there tongue.gif I was just hoping for some real-world experiences driving a pro-amp. My epx4000 doesn't have those dip switches. I do have the one switch set to full-range however.

 

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post #3248 of 9968 Old 03-05-2013, 03:07 AM
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Two sides to the power capabilities (or lack thereof) of the 4520:

Quote:
It is obvious the 80watts/Emotiva is more pronounced than the 150watts/Denon. As a matter of fact, I’m tempted to buy the 200/300watt XPA-5 for keeps.

Quote:
In conclusion, I am thoroughly impressed with this unit. It has about all the features you could ask for in a receiver/processor and ample power to accommodate most any speaker system. I initially intended on reviewing it and then selling it, but instead I have already sold my Onkyo 5508, XPA-3 amp and XPA-1 monoblocks. I keep thinking to myself that the 4520 seems to be a little on the pricey side, but if you consider what any other processor with the same features would cost you and then add the expense of amplification, the 4520 price actually sounds like a bargain. I think the most surprising part of my experience with the 4520 has been its ability to drive my MartinLogan speakers effortlessly. I had almost given up on ever trying receiver power because I have always read and heard that the Prodigy’s pretty much needed at least 300 watts of good clean power to perform their best. I will have to disagree with the naysayers, as I find it hard to get any better than what it is right now with the 4520 the only power amp source in my system. Excellent job Denon!


The first quote by Joe6P of this forum suggests that the Emo 80w amps are superior to the Denon 150w amp section while the second quote is from Sonnie at HTS who had Emo 200w amps and sold them because he thought the Denon powered his inefficient ML speakers just as well as the 200w Emo's. Absolutely night and day difference of opinion!


Personally I don't have "golden ears" and I've always been happy with the Denon sound and power. I also have efficient Paradigm speakers so I'm not as concerned about the power as some may be. I've had 2 Denon's and I've never had a serious problem. I've been on the fence about buying a 4520 and some of these negative posts have not helped with my decision but I think you've really got to weigh all this information. I think any of these forums tend to accent the negative as people with problems will search these forums looking for help and post their bad experiences while a lot of non HT addicts who don't have problems don't even know these forums exist.

For me the pros of upgrading from my 3311 are: #1) Drive 9 channels
#2) DTS Neo:X
#3) Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and Audyssey Sub EQ HT Dual subwoofer EQ
#4) OSD over 3D material
Cons:#1) Lack of custom 2 channel stereo settings (most important)
#2) Lack of input & output displays at the same time
#3) Reliability concerns because of some of the info in the forums
#4) Size, I'm not sure this thing will even fit in my stand

Doug


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post #3249 of 9968 Old 03-05-2013, 03:29 AM
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^^
1. The "custom" 2CH playback option is still present for both STEREO and DIRECT modes (w/Front B speaker setup only). (p. 145 OM).
2. These are still available, rather the 4520CI can only display "either" the INPUT or OUTPUT channel icons, but not both at the same time. ("Channel Indicators" p. 153 OM).
3. IIRC, the few noted issues have been right out of the box, and a small % of defective units is to be expected with any mfr.

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post #3250 of 9968 Old 03-05-2013, 03:43 AM
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^Doug,
edit: (In addition to jd's comments that appeared as I was typing,)

I believe your #1 Con can also be easily addressed by dedicating a Quick Select to custom Stereo settings or by programming a universal remote.

I guess time will tell on Con #3. I have a good local Denon authorized repair shop I had to use for the AVR 4310 NIC issue and that went quite smoothly. As I posted recently, I don't consider the reliability on this model to be a concern based on reports so far.

You can achieve #1 & #3 of your goals and address #2 & #3 of the cons by purchasing a 4311 while there's still some available. You'll save hundreds, which you could use towards other HT improvements (Audyssey Pro, etc.), software or even towards your next AVR, which will doubtless have yet more features.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #3251 of 9968 Old 03-05-2013, 04:22 AM
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Thanks Jdsmoothie for your advices. I already checked that my receiver isn't Pure Direct Mode.
The Dimmer parameter is Bright Mode on the Front Display Parameter.
when I did the Microprocessor reset several times, the Front Panel didn't flash on/off.
Only the power bottom flashed few times.
Any changed were made to my Configurations when this happened.
BTW, I am running my LRC & Front wides speakers with an Emotive XPA-5 amplifier.
The rest are being managed by the AVR-4520CI.
These are my Speakers Configuration:

Definitive Technology BP8060ST Front Floorstand Speakers.
Definitive Technology CS8060HD Center Speaker.
Definitive Technology SR8080BP Surround Speakers
Definitive Technology SM55 for Front Height & Wide Speakers
HSU VTF-15H Subwoofer

My Audyssey Values are:


Amp. Assign

Assign mode Discrete 11.1 ch
Main pre-amps. Front

Speaker configuration

Front. Small
Center. Small
Subwoofer. 2 spkrs
Surround. Small
Surround back. Small
2 Speakers
Front Height. Small
Front Wide. Small


Speakers/ Distances

Unit. Feet
Step. 1 feet

Front L. 8.6ft
Front R. 8.7ft
Center. 9.7ft
Subwoofer 1. 10.2ft
Subwoofer 2. 8.3ft
Surround L. 6.5ft
Surround R. 7.0ft
Surround Back L. 5.3ft
Surround Back R. 5.5ft
Front Height L. 10.9ft
Front Height R. 11.0ft
Front Wide L. 10.9ft
Front Wide R. 11.1ft


Speaker/Test tones

Front L. -6.5db
Front Height L. 0.0db
Center. -6.5db
Front Height R. -0.5db
Front R. -5.0db
Front Wide R. -3.0db
Surround R. +0.5db
Surround Back R. +1.0db
Surround Back L. +1.0db
Surround L. -1.0db
Front Wide L. -3.0db
Subwoofer 1 -5.5db
Subwoofer 2. -4.0db
Subwoofer 1+2. Down/Up

Speakers Crossovers

Speaker Selection. Individual
All. 80hz. (No se puede cambiar)
Front. 110hz
Center. 40hz. Changed to 80hz all
Surround. 40hz. Recomended BY Audyssey
Surround Baco. 40hz. & HSU (Leo). Technical Support
Front Height. 40hz
Front Wide. 40hz

Speakers/Bass

Subwoofer Mode. LFE
LPF for LFE. 120hz

Speakers Impedance

Impedance. 8ohms

I am really VERY HAPPY with the system performance but I need to solve this issue if possible.
Thanks again for your advices and support.
Carlos
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post #3252 of 9968 Old 03-05-2013, 04:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmendizabal09 View Post

Thanks Jdsmoothie for your advices. I already checked that my receiver isn't Pure Direct Mode.
The Dimmer parameter is Bright Mode on the Front Display Parameter.
when I did the Microprocessor reset several times, the Front Panel didn't flash on/off.
Only the power bottom flashed few times.
Any changed were made to my Configurations when this happened.
BTW, I am running my LRC & Front wides speakers with an Emotive XPA-5 amplifier.
The rest are being managed by the AVR-4520CI.
These are my Speakers Configuration:

...

I think this calls for a replacement. The receiver's display seems dead or the circuit that drives it died. There is nothing else you can try in my opinion.

Home Theater: Denon AVR-4520CI, BDP-2010CI, Hitachi 62VS69A, Paradigm Monitor 7 v3, CC-370 v4, ADP-190 v6, Mini-Monitor v4, PW-2200 v2
Living Room: Denon AVR-2807, DVD-1930CI, Samsung LN40B540 40" LCD, Apple-TV, Paradigm Titan Monitor v6, PDR W100
Patio: Paradigm Stylus-370 (Zone 2 of living room)
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post #3253 of 9968 Old 03-05-2013, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a1usedcomp View Post

UMC-200 No the UMC just fails before you even unpack it Emotiva should pay people to be beta testers for the UMC

Or this unit (4520) that has its amp section trounced by a $500 under powered amp and has quite a high failure rate judging by this very thread? wink.gif

See how unfair BOTH statements are?rolleyes.gif
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post #3254 of 9968 Old 03-05-2013, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
1. The "custom" 2CH playback option is still present for both STEREO and DIRECT modes. (p. 145 OM).

If you're sure about that it would push me to the 4520 as that's a biggie for me. Batpig's post #2 of this thread states that 2 channel customization is only available if you have separate dedicated speakers?

Quote:
2. These are still available, rather the 4520CI can only display "either" the INPUT or OUTPUT channel icons, but not both at the same time. ("Channel Indicators" p. 153 OM).

Yes, I did know that I just wasn't clear in my cons but I do like having both input & output displayed at the same time. It provides a quick visual reference so I can tell all is as it should be. Just something I've gotten used to and I would miss.

Quote:
3. IIRC, the few noted issues have been right out of the box, and a small % of defective units is to be expected with any mfr.

Yes, I agree. The reliability concerns are the least of my cons. As I mentioned I believe all these forums are generally skewed towards people who are having issues and not a true indicator of how reliable any given piece of equipment is.

Quote:
I believe your #1 Con can also be easily addressed by dedicating a Quick Select to custom Stereo settings or by programming a universal remote.

That's good to know. I'm not familiar with Quick Select. While my receiver has that function, I've never had the need to use it as I use a Harmony One to control everything.

Quote:
You can achieve #1 & #3 of your goals and address #2 & #3 of the cons by purchasing a 4311 while there's still some available. You'll save hundreds, which you could use towards other HT improvements (Audyssey Pro, etc.), software or even towards your next AVR, which will doubtless have yet more features.


When I first noticed that 2 channel custom may not be available on the 4520, I looked hard at the 4311. There's a few new features it doesn't have that the 4520 does but the one feature it lacks that is a deal killer is DTS Neo:X. I know a few people have said they don't notice much difference when using front wides but I do. I think they add quite a bit of, well.......width to the sound stage. What I don't like is the artifacts that DSX seems to add to dialog. On some movies it's very noticeable and distracting. I was told by someone else on this forum that the DTS Neo: X mode is much better than DSX and does not add that echo to dialog.

Thanks for all the input, it's appreciated.

Doug


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post #3255 of 9968 Old 03-05-2013, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Hi. I have Dali Euphonia MS5s (3 way, dual 8" woofs)...Audyssey says Large of course. I manually reset them to Small. Nice to meet you. wink.gif

Q. Why don't I run those #152 beautiful monsters full range? After all, I drive em with a class D Halcro MC30, plenty of power for bass.
A. My fam rm/HT does not have bass traps and has very lumpy bass. The FR/L speakers are placed for optimal soundstage/imaging. The subs are placed for optimally smooth bass. Small yields tighter, punchier bass. Yum. smile.gif

Interesting. So in your case, your home theater room is one of the deciding factors to set your mains to small. Do you think you would be open to changing those settings if your room's acoustics were different?

Also, did you demo those Dali's in a sound treated room or a dealer showroom? I know most of the time in optimal conditions those will not be set to small.
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post #3256 of 9968 Old 03-05-2013, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post


For me the pros of upgrading from my 3311 are: #1) Drive 9 channels
#2) DTS Neo:X
#3) Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and Audyssey Sub EQ HT Dual subwoofer EQ
#4) OSD over 3D material
Cons:#1) Lack of custom 2 channel stereo settings (most important)
#2) Lack of input & output displays at the same time
#3) Reliability concerns because of some of the info in the forums
#4) Size, I'm not sure this thing will even fit in my stand

Don't forget to add the following pros:

5. 4K capabilities for some future-proofing
6. One of the few processors to have 32bit Burr Brown DACs
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post #3257 of 9968 Old 03-05-2013, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Don't forget to add the following pros:

5. 4K capabilities for some future-proofing
6. One of the few processors to have 32bit Burr Brown DACs


From what I've read about 4K TV, I don't think that will ever be on my wish list although the capability would be nice to have just because.
32bit DAC........What exactly is that? I listen to a lot compressed music files networked from my PC but I use a BluRay player to access those files because of it's folder structure. Would the 32bit DAC still help?

Doug


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post #3258 of 9968 Old 03-05-2013, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe6P View Post

I agree but an auto radiator without a cooling fan doesn’t do much good.
My point here is the cooling fans don’t seem to run even when the heat sinks are excessively hot.

Two completely different devices, implementations, and methodologies.

What's "excessively hot"? I'm certain the engineers at Denon and you have very differing definitions. Until poor heat dissipation is either proven- or at least reasonably assumed- with these units, I'm not going to be running for the hills.

James

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post #3259 of 9968 Old 03-05-2013, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

From what I've read about 4K TV, I don't think that will ever be on my wish list although the capability would be nice to have just because.
32bit DAC........What exactly is that? I listen to a lot compressed music files networked from my PC but I use a BluRay player to access those files because of it's folder structure. Would the 32bit DAC still help?

Absolutely. The flagship Denons (and other competitors) typically have Burr Brown DACs, which aid in audio playback decoding. This will be especially useful if you want to get into something like SACD. Since your music playback is compressed, you probably wouldn't notice much of a difference at all between the playback of a 32 bit DAC of a 4520 versus the 24-bit DAC of a 4311. It is still a bonus feature and nice to have.

As for the 4K playback, the compatibility is more of a convenience feature for future proofing yourself. Given that a significant amount of TVs and projectors are still made with 720p resolution, and all broadcast TV is only 1080i, I see 4K being a niche product for quite some time.
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post #3260 of 9968 Old 03-05-2013, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantYnot View Post

Interesting. So in your case, your home theater room is one of the deciding factors to set your mains to small. Do you think you would be open to changing those settings if your room's acoustics were different?
Also, did you demo those Dali's in a sound treated room or a dealer showroom? I know most of the time in optimal conditions those will not be set to small.
Yes, the room matters. I've done some tweaks to improve room acoustics ("acoustic" curtains, thick padded rug) and taken care with speaker/sub positioning. But all these decisions are balanced against other aesthetics and what's practical, as this is not a dedicated HT. Formal treatments are not on the agenda for now so the rest is up to XT32/Audyssey Pro, and various tweaks such as setting speakers to Small, adjusting crossovers and distances, etc.



I find the most useful speaker A/B comparisons need to be done where they matter most-in my room, not in a dealer showroom. For ex., for awhile I had the 2 way MS4s and compared them vs MS5 in various ways: Small MS4 vs Large MS4 vs Large MS5 vs Small MS4 vs small MS5. The biggest diff was in the improved midbass definition and impact and improved midrange clarity and presence of the MS5s, both of which contribute to added liveliness and realism for 2 ch music in particular.

All those with optimal room conditions please stand up.... wink.gif

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #3261 of 9968 Old 03-05-2013, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
1. The "custom" 2CH playback option is still present for both STEREO and DIRECT modes. (p. 145 OM).
2. These are still available, rather the 4520CI can only display "either" the INPUT or OUTPUT channel icons, but not both at the same time. ("Channel Indicators" p. 153 OM).
3. IIRC, the few noted issues have been right out of the box, and a small % of defective units is to be expected with any mfr.

 

JD, item 1 has been discussed here before.  Custom settings for 2CH are not available if you have a 5.1 configuration (or more speakers).


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post #3262 of 9968 Old 03-05-2013, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Or this unit (4520) that has its amp section trounced by a $500 under powered amp and has quite a high failure rate judging by this very thread? wink.gif

See how unfair BOTH statements are?rolleyes.gif


The UMC is not even in the same league as the 4520 Is the XMC-1 still comming soon ? eek.gif

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post #3263 of 9968 Old 03-05-2013, 08:21 AM
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Is the XMC-1 still comming soon ? eek.gif


LOL, good one, I always love those ole' vaporware jokes!
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post #3264 of 9968 Old 03-05-2013, 09:37 AM
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Hi all,

long time follower, first time poster.

I have an issue with my PS3, viewsonic TV, and 4520ci. sometimes I like to watch videos from the PS3 with the 4520ci off. Since the 4520CI supports pass through of audio and video, my understanding was this would be a no brainer. However, while video appears fine on the screen, the audio is partially cut off. What I mean is I get sound tracks and some sound effects, but no vocal (speaking). Not sure what the reason is. HDMI cables are all properly plugged in.

any thoughts, have a missed a setting somewhere?
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post #3265 of 9968 Old 03-05-2013, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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The reason is because the audio capabilities of your TV and the receiver are not the same. When connected to the receiver, the PS3's multich output is received and played correctly by the receiver, which can handle a multichannel signal input. When you turn off the receiver and use the standby passthrough, ideally the source should "renegotiate" the handshake with the TV and reset itself down to stereo audio output. However, the PS3 is not doing this -- it's still outputting multich PCM audio, but the TV can only handle stereo PCM, so you are hearing the signal from the L/R channels but the center (dialogue) and surround channels are gone.

I bet if you change the PS3 to stereo output it will work fine.
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post #3266 of 9968 Old 03-05-2013, 10:07 AM
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This is great. Thanks! worked like a charm.
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post #3267 of 9968 Old 03-05-2013, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by a1usedcomp View Post

The UMC is not even in the same league as the 4520 Is the XMC-1 still comming soon ? eek.gif

Who cares if it is or not, that wasn't really my point.
But if you want to bash the UMC (there are two different units you know) there are OTHER threads for that.
No need for that here. It doesn't apply.

Last I'm talking about it so lets just move on. cool.gif
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post #3268 of 9968 Old 03-05-2013, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Who cares if it is or not, that wasn't really my point.
But if you want to bash the UMC (there are two different units you know) there are OTHER threads for that.
No need for that here. It doesn't apply.

Last I'm talking about it so lets just move on. cool.gif


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post #3269 of 9968 Old 03-05-2013, 11:37 AM
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Question: I have a projector that is no longer HDMI compliant... If my source is component will the 4520 convert it so I can still use my HDMI input on my projector? I ask this because my computer has no problem with HDMI going through my 3806 but my cable box does.

Denon 4520ci, (3) JBL 2360As/EV DHA-1s, (3) 1/4 Pie bass bins, MiniDSP 2x4s, (4) Klipsch HIPs, (2) Klipsch KP3002s, PS3, XBox 360, (3) Intel NUCs, Monoprice Redmere, Monster HTPS7000, 2 SUPER SPUD subs, Panasonic AE8000us SeymourAV 180 (195" diagonal) scope screen, Yamaha P7000s (for the subs), (2) Yamaha P2500s amps for the front (3) bass bins.
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post #3270 of 9968 Old 03-05-2013, 12:47 PM
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ellisr63,

Did you try connecting your cable box's HDMI output directly to the projector (with digital audio going to the receiver)? Many cable and satellite decoders are incompatible with the types of HDMI repeaters used in most receivers.

The other possible problem is that your projector is old enough that it doesn't include HDCP. Support for HDCP is required by most modern receivers. If that's the case, the 5420's HDMI output might not work at all for you.

Component and composite video should work OK when transcoded to HDMI by the receiver, but the quality of the resulting image might not be as good as you'd like. (Current generation Blu-ray payers are required to provide only standard-definition video over their component otuputs.)

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