The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 111 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3301 of 11130 Old 03-07-2013, 11:32 AM
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To add to my last post, I have been a Pioneer owner for nearly a decade, and in my pursuit for an upgrade originally decided to pass on the new Pioneers (lack of Audyssey) in lieu of Onkyo's outstanding feature list. Since the past few years have been a plague of various issues to Onkyo, I decided to take the path of my friend who has a been a Denon owner almost 20 years without one issue. Ultimately, I am seeking pure reliability like that as I have had with Pioneer as well. I understand there might be HDMI handshake issues and some resets that may need to occur, but a unit just powering off or one of the channels just dying for no reason at all is just not acceptable to me whatsoever, especially for any company flagship unit.
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post #3302 of 11130 Old 03-07-2013, 11:38 AM
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Unfortunately, any manufacturer will ship some lemons which slipped through QC testing. There are just too many features that have to be tested for them to be perfect. Not all refurbished units have had their problems fixed, either.

Personally, I prefer to buy from a local A/V dealer just because of the ease in getting a replacement or loaner if there's a problem, even though they're somewhat more expensive than an internet reseller.

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post #3303 of 11130 Old 03-07-2013, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Unfortunately, any manufacturer will ship some lemons which slipped through QC testing. There are just too many features that have to be tested for them to be perfect. Not all refurbished units have had their problems fixed, either.

In all my years in home theater and collecting electronics, receiver problems seemed non-existent in the past, especially since these units we're discussing are one of the most expensive components in a home theater. I guess it's hard for me to fathom that this is possible, no doubt thanks to the digital age.
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post #3304 of 11130 Old 03-07-2013, 12:12 PM
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Modern AVRs are vastly more complex than old stereo receivers. And as an old tech I can tell you there were plenty of QA issues back then, too...

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #3305 of 11130 Old 03-07-2013, 12:42 PM
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I wonder if this has been mentioned before on this thread.
I’ve done four processor resets so far to recover Audyssey LFC (Low Frequency Containment) and the rest of the options.
It seems as soon as I go into the manual adjustments it defaults like this:

Setup - Audio – Audyssey – MultEQ XT32 = (OFF) Or (Graphic EQ)

The rest of the equalization options other than (OFF) OR (Graphic EQ) are no longer accessible.
Unless I’m missing something, the only way to recover all the options back is by resetting the processor and not messing with the manual adjustments.

Any hints???

Thanks.
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post #3306 of 11130 Old 03-07-2013, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantYnot View Post

To add to my last post, I have been a Pioneer owner for nearly a decade, and in my pursuit for an upgrade originally decided to pass on the new Pioneers (lack of Audyssey) in lieu of Onkyo's outstanding feature list. Since the past few years have been a plague of various issues to Onkyo, I decided to take the path of my friend who has a been a Denon owner almost 20 years without one issue. Ultimately, I am seeking pure reliability like that as I have had with Pioneer as well. I understand there might be HDMI handshake issues and some resets that may need to occur, but a unit just powering off or one of the channels just dying for no reason at all is just not acceptable to me whatsoever, especially for any company flagship unit.

You have to remember where you're looking. People typically come to a thread like this when they have an issue, there really aren't that many people who bother posting that they have no issues. I've been monitoring this thread since the beginning of the year and it doesn't seem to me like there's that many people complaining about defects. I see lots of questions on the unit's features and I see some people questioning the power output of the unit (it seemed that for a while that was the only topic of disucssion) but the number of defective units for a thread dedicated to the unit seems rather low to me.

Based on nothing but following the threads on AVS my guess would be that Denon is still one of the more reliable AVR companies.
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post #3307 of 11130 Old 03-07-2013, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantYnot View Post

For those owners that have gotten warranty work done, was the service center quick? What do people think about the refurb units that they might get as replacements? I am seeing a lot of refurb units pop up online now.

I will share my experience with the forum. I posted a few pages back about the failure of my 4520 after 2 weeks of ownership. However, I failed to mention that I bought it as B stock from a Denon authorized reseller, Accesories4less. I called Accessories4less and told them about the problem and they referred me to the Denon support center in New Jersey. I was a little pissed because I thought they were just passing the buck, but when I emailed them to express my concern they informed me that they have a deal with Denon that goes beyond the standard warranty. Basically, I didn't have to pay return shipping AND I am shipped a replacement unit and don't have to wait for what I sent back to get repaired. So, within 24 hours of my call to Denon a pre-paid FedEx label was emailed to me and I dropped the unit off this morning. We shall see how long it takes to get a replacement.

There are some here that frown upon B stock purchases. I have had great success with refurbished units in the past, save this Denon. I chose to save $600 by buying B stock and thought I was giving up a 2 year warranty, but did not realize it is 3 years on the 4520. If I had known the warranty was 3 years I would have bought new. That said, if you are going to buy a B stock, given the failure rate of the 4520, purchase from an authorized Denon reseller. You can find the complete list of resellers on Denon's site.

Accessories4less was excellent in handling my problem and I highly recommend them.

Jerry
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post #3308 of 11130 Old 03-07-2013, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Two completely different devices, implementations, and methodologies.

What's "excessively hot"? I'm certain the engineers at Denon and you have very differing definitions. Until poor heat dissipation is either proven- or at least reasonably assumed- with these units, I'm not going to be running for the hills.

James

Every computer has at least two running cooling fans; one mounted on top of the processor radiator and another for the power supply.

Every computer server is located in a temperature controlled room not just to keep its temperature cool but constant.

Every commercial airplane has a built in detection/protection system that produces a loud alarm siren while sitting on the ground the second it detects low cooling air flow and shuts down it IRUs processors within minutes if the fault was not corrected.

My 4 year old Acer laptop has a variable speed cooling fan controlled by demand in order to maintain constant processor temperature.

The AVR-4520ci IS a COMPUTER!

I’m not the one who invented this technology.
I’m not claiming I know better than Denon engineers.
As far as I know, no one ever heard the cooling fans on the AVR-4520 run.
If Denon engineers believe their unit doesn’t need constent cooling, then they must know the answer to why so many of their units hardware are failing during the first few weeks, not the mention the ones DOA and the software problems.
I mentioned before I lost confidence in the 4520 design. I’m ready to write it off.
For a receiver that has been only a few months in service, the number of refurbished units on the market is seriously abnormal. Keeping in mind, whether it’s refurbished, A or B stock, it’s still the same design that I believe it was meant to fail sometimes after the warranty expiration but Denon engineers got more than what they bargained for… It’s failing as we speak…
During the past 15 years, I’ve owned many of Denon’s flagships including receivers and other A/V units. I came to expect a lot from them. Unfortunately, I believe they rushed into releasing this new line of receivers counting on their legacy to get away with an unreliable product.

It is true a good part of this thread has become the Wailing Wall for the 4520 but there is a legitimate reason for that.
I for one rather enjoy all the exciting bells and whistles on my 4520 but I’m tired having to unplug and re-plug AC cords, resetting processors and recalibrating knowing I’ll have to twist arms if/when the unit fails completely.
Please don’t shoot the messenger…
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post #3309 of 11130 Old 03-07-2013, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EVT View Post

Based on nothing but following the threads on AVS my guess would be that Denon is still one of the more reliable AVR companies.

Agreed. I have seen more former Onkyo owners than former Denon owners. The only other viable candidate that I can think of that would be in the same league would be Integra; though the 80.3 is due to be replaced with the upcoming 80.4.
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post #3310 of 11130 Old 03-07-2013, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Incollingo View Post

. I chose to save $600 by buying B stock and thought I was giving up a 2 year warranty, but did not realize it is 3 years on the 4520. If I had known the warranty was 3 years I would have bought new.

AC4L offers a 3 year extended warranty for $85, although note that your savings for new was actually only $100 over a "new" purchase from avscience.com.

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post #3311 of 11130 Old 03-07-2013, 06:12 PM
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I made the purchase from a random Ebay place with decent feedback (infinity something). Now I'm a little worried Denon won't honor their warranty since they weren't an "authorized online dealer" after reading of JoeP getting the runaround in the same boat. I'm still waiting to find out if this random ebay place has a brick and mortar store that might be an authorized reseller though, but of course they haven't answered my email. Thought of canceling but they had already shipped, and claim to charge a 25% restocking fee if I sent it back un-opened, yay. Would buying an extended warranty through something like squaretrade get around this problem in the event I actually did need a repair down the road? I really can't fathom how Denon could legally get out of their warranty though, that seems massively shady.
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post #3312 of 11130 Old 03-07-2013, 06:28 PM
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Not really .. as most (if not all) of the big name mfr's have the same policy. Yes, a Squaretrade warranty would be available starting on the 46th day after purchase as noted below.

http://pages.ebay.com/warranty/squaretrade.html

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post #3313 of 11130 Old 03-07-2013, 07:02 PM
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My new 4520ci finally has a home!



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post #3314 of 11130 Old 03-07-2013, 07:03 PM
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post #3315 of 11130 Old 03-07-2013, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

AC4L offers a 3 year extended warranty for $85, although note that your savings for new was actually only $100 over a "new" purchase from avscience.com.

Where are you coming up with only $100 savings? It looks to me that it is over $600 even with the 3 year extended warranty.

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post #3316 of 11130 Old 03-07-2013, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe6P View Post

Every computer has at least two running cooling fans; one mounted on top of the processor radiator and another for the power supply.

Every computer server is located in a temperature controlled room not just to keep its temperature cool but constant.

Every commercial airplane has a built in detection/protection system that produces a loud alarm siren while sitting on the ground the second it detects low cooling air flow and shuts down it IRUs processors within minutes if the fault was not corrected.

My 4 year old Acer laptop has a variable speed cooling fan controlled by demand in order to maintain constant processor temperature.

The AVR-4520ci IS a COMPUTER!

I’m not the one who invented this technology.
I’m not claiming I know better than Denon engineers.
As far as I know, no one ever heard the cooling fans on the AVR-4520 run.
If Denon engineers believe their unit doesn’t need constent cooling, then they must know the answer to why so many of their units hardware are failing during the first few weeks, not the mention the ones DOA and the software problems.
I mentioned before I lost confidence in the 4520 design. I’m ready to write it off.
For a receiver that has been only a few months in service, the number of refurbished units on the market is seriously abnormal. Keeping in mind, whether it’s refurbished, A or B stock, it’s still the same design that I believe it was meant to fail sometimes after the warranty expiration but Denon engineers got more than what they bargained for… It’s failing as we speak…
During the past 15 years, I’ve owned many of Denon’s flagships including receivers and other A/V units. I came to expect a lot from them. Unfortunately, I believe they rushed into releasing this new line of receivers counting on their legacy to get away with an unreliable product.

It is true a good part of this thread has become the Wailing Wall for the 4520 but there is a legitimate reason for that.
I for one rather enjoy all the exciting bells and whistles on my 4520 but I’m tired having to unplug and re-plug AC cords, resetting processors and recalibrating knowing I’ll have to twist arms if/when the unit fails completely.
Please don’t shoot the messenger…

Well, I just want to say that the computer comparison is not necessarily good. Yes the AVR-4520 has a CPU, probably more a big micro controller actually, but it probably runs at something like 300 MHz top. These kind of chips generate not even 10% of the heat a modern computer CPU generates as these run at 2 GHz and more. So an embedded CPU like the one the AVR-4520 or any modern AV receiver actually does not need any cooling at all. The airflow around it is more than enough to cool it. Try putting your finger on a modern computer CPU without any heat sync and fan and you might get a severe burn, the AVR's CPU will probably only be hot enough to make you remove your finger after two three seconds.

What generates the heat in there is the power amps, but their big heat sync are meant to cool them so they do not burn. From my opinion, the fans of the AVR-4520 never run because they are not needed in normal use. Maybe if you play super loud music for several hours during a hot summer day they'll start turning. I pretty convinced the Denon Engineers know how to calculate heat dissipation for electronic components and I am also very positive that all the issues reported on this forum are not heat related.

The hardware failures can be caused by a lot of things, most of them being out of Denon's control like temperature shocks from transportation and storage at different temperatures or the box being dropped several times during the shipping process, etc. We do not know what happens to our products from the factory to our home and frankly, I rather not know!

Yes, I am lucky as my receiver as shown no sign of failure at all since October and I use it every day. Unfortunately, I think the number of failures we read about on this very thread are only caused by the fact that people who are satisfied by a product most likely never talk about it.

I do not think people need to be scared to buy the unit after reading posts talking about issues. The AVR-4520 is an excellent product in my opinion and it is really worth the expense. If you unfortunately get a bad unit, just return it for a replacement. This can happen with any product of any brand.

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post #3317 of 11130 Old 03-07-2013, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by pgor888 View Post

My new 4520ci finally has a home!




Hope you have a dedicated cooling system for all that gear. smile.gif
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post #3318 of 11130 Old 03-07-2013, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I think any sonic improvements you think you hear from $1,000 cables falls under a different realm of psychology than psychoacoustics wink.gif

I wonder how many of those $1000 cables are made at the same factory as the MonoPrice cables and just have fancy sheathing...

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post #3319 of 11130 Old 03-07-2013, 08:23 PM
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Monoprice has the fancy sheathing and braiding now too.
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post #3320 of 11130 Old 03-07-2013, 10:07 PM
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Sage advice. Yes, I have two large rack cooling fans with exhaust ducts up into my large attic. Wish I had my millworkers cut out space in the kick for an intake fan though.
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post #3321 of 11130 Old 03-08-2013, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post

Where are you coming up with only $100 savings? It looks to me that it is over $600 even with the 3 year extended warranty.

As is the case with a number of the "authorized" Denon resellers, you must pick up the phone and "call" them to get their best price. smile.gif

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post #3322 of 11130 Old 03-08-2013, 12:50 AM
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I got one myself. I had AVR-1910 before. I liked it very much, but it lacked some newer features like Airplay, network stuff and 3D. Plus 4520 has more power and better DSP aswell. I have been building my home equipment and now was the time for newer amp. Denon is what wanted. Of course not choosing it blindly but competitioners didn't have all the features that I wanted. Also being familiar with Denon it was an easy choice to make. Onkyo would been another option since it has the Audyssey XT32.

Now I have owned it for almost a week. No problems at all. Easy to config. New GUI is very nice after that 1910 nintendo 8-bit. Basicly all the settings were there before.
Sound is stronger and more controlled than it was with 1910.

One glitch a have come across. Few posts back Joe6P comments that he has lost some settings of the Audyssey (???). Maybe I had the same?

Dynamic volume settings are set up for each input. I had set them up so none of inputs have that on. Also I renamed "TV AUDIO" to Just "TV". For reasons that I don't know audio settings were reset (dynamic volume got back on in every input) and also that input name was back to TV AUDIO. Audyssey curves didn't reset or go back to older or anything like that. Looks like it resetted itself back or didnt save some of the settings. Maybe I have done something that resets these settings? Unplugging the unit doesn't reset anything (as it shouldn't). So that is not the reason. This has happened only one time.

Also this amp runs much hotter than old 1910. Do you know does this amp have cooling fans? Looking that German review on post #1. Review has photos and one of them has bottom of the unit showing. It looks like it has place for two fans. I didn't check that out when I set my amp in the cabinet. It is too much work now to check it myself. Does anyone know does it have these fans? Knowing that it has would calm my mind. That would mean it cant run too hot (it activates the fans when needed). I have aprox. 2inch (5 cm) open space around the amp. Back is also open. Usually I keep cabin front glass door slightly open to have air circulation.
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post #3323 of 11130 Old 03-08-2013, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

As is the case with a number of the "authorized" Denon resellers, you must pick up the phone and "call" them to get their best price. smile.gif

For a $100 dif I would have went new.

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post #3324 of 11130 Old 03-08-2013, 12:10 PM
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Anyone here made the jump to the 4520 from the 4311 and regretted whether it be for the lack of the tiniest feature/s, not happy with the remote etc , or happy as a clam by their decision.

Or should I just save my money being that I own a 5.1 setup.

Oh before I forget I know you can do a comparison type chart over on the Denon site, but is there one here on the thread.


Thanks


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post #3325 of 11130 Old 03-08-2013, 01:47 PM
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Djoel,

A comparison between the 4311 and the 4520 is in the second post on the first page of this very thread, although it's not actually a chart.

Selden

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post #3326 of 11130 Old 03-08-2013, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Djoel,

A comparison between the 4311 and the 4520 is in the second post on the first page of this very thread, although it's not actually a chart.


Thanks for that info..


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post #3327 of 11130 Old 03-08-2013, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by SergeantYnot View Post

I seem to read a lot about with the Denons of today compared to the past. Onkyo refurbs have flooded the market, and that's due to all the years of bugs. This is precisely why I'm avoiding Onkyo altogether as I have no desire to play a guessing game with quality.

What I am actually wondering is, are the refurbs coming from Denon actually going to be more reliable than purchasing a new unit that might be a lemon to begin with?

I have often wondered the same thing on refurbs...especially for items that are newer to the market

both Onkyo and Denon have had a consistent refurb stream for several years...with multiple dealer outlets with about their full line of AVR's available


to my knowledge...those two brands have the largest amount of refurbs out there....I have bought a couple of Onkyo refurbs in the past...one was a gem...the other one no so much

I have not ever seen a Pioneer of Yamaha AVR refurb with any steady consistency

Perhaps someone else can comment on what they see in the market on refurb availabiliby


Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Marantz 8801 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Pioneer SC37 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 Pioneer SC77 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
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post #3328 of 11130 Old 03-08-2013, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post

For a $100 dif I would have went new.

As would most of us I would wager. smile.gif

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post #3329 of 11130 Old 03-08-2013, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

I have often wondered the same thing on refurbs...especially for items that are newer to the market

both Onkyo and Denon have had a consistent refurb stream for several years...with multiple dealer outlets with about their full line of AVR's available


to my knowledge...those two brands have the largest amount of refurbs out there....I have bought a couple of Onkyo refurbs in the past...one was a gem...the other one no so much

I have not ever seen a Pioneer of Yamaha AVR refurb with any steady consistency

Perhaps someone else can comment on what they see in the market on refurb availabiliby


Warren


I personally don't think Pio, nor Yamaha sells as much as the as Onkyo and Denon..


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post #3330 of 11130 Old 03-08-2013, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Djoel View Post

Anyone here made the jump to the 4520 from the 4311 and regretted whether it be for the lack of the tiniest feature/s, not happy with the remote etc , or happy as a clam by their decision.

Or should I just save my money being that I own a 5.1 setup.

Oh before I forget I know you can do a comparison type chart over on the Denon site, but is there one here on the thread.


Thanks


Djoel
I upgraded from the 4311. I only really miss the channel level quick setting.

I have 11.2 and upgraded because I wanted Neo:X. If I only had 5.1, I wouldn't see a reason to upgrade.

You should get some more speakers. smile.gif
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