The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 145 - AVS Forum
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post #4321 of 9166 Old 05-08-2013, 04:58 AM
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I just posted the below in the Emotiva XPA-5 owners thread. I thought I would also post this here in the 4520 owners thread. Any thoughts from 4520 owners on whether there is a need for external amps and if one was added were there SQ improvements as mentioned in the post below?

Below is a link to a thread over at the Emotiva Lounge. The thread is discussing the addition of an XPA-5 to a Denon 4520. The interesting part of the discussion are the thoughts that with the addition of the XPA-5 that overall SQ is improved. In that certain aspects of music have better clarity and that the soundstage is improved. It has been a very civil and respectful exchange of differing opinions. My main question is that if the volume levels are matched between using the 4520's amp section and then with the addition of the XPA-5 how does the SQ improve with just the addition of the XPA-5. Also how can one really do an accurate comparison when it takes a fair amount of time to add the XPA-5 or remove it for the comparison. I also asked if these differences happened at low to moderate volume levels and several in the discussion said that they heard SQ improvement at these volume levels as well.

So I would like to ask those in this thread what could the XPA-5 be doing to the signal to improve SQ in both clarity of specific instruments and improve the soundstage? I'm under the assumption that an amp like the XPA-5 should be transparent and not add anything to the signal or alter the SQ of the music one is listening to. But maybe I'm wrong in that assumption. With that I would like to know what in fact an external amp such as the XPA-5 could be doing to improve upon the SQ of the amp section of the 4520. I also would have to believe that the amp section in the 4520 is quite good and not lacking unless driven really hard with challenging speakers. So any thoughts on this discussion would be appreciated smile.gif.


http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=amps&action=display&thread=30377

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post #4322 of 9166 Old 05-08-2013, 04:58 AM
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Crap, you are correct soundofmind, I put the wrong one in my thread. I actually have one of each. The V2W has an LFE in, it is the 2Wq that I was referring too as referenced in the manufacturer pages here: http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/2Wqlit.html
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post #4323 of 9166 Old 05-08-2013, 06:28 AM
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^ So, in order to set your Heights to Large, the Mains and the Surrounds also need to be set to Large.  And if you set Bass=LFE+Mains, you can set individual crossover values for each set of speakers.  I’m following so far.

 

So now you want to connect the 2WQ sub to the Height pre-out and configure the Height speakers to have a 40Hz crossover?  There could be several things wrong with this configuration.  First, in order for the sub to be contributing to the overall bass response, the Heights must be receiving the full bass signal content.  Is that really the case?  If not, what is the sub actually going to be doing?  Second, you now would have bass reproduced in all speakers as well as the sub.  It has been discussed many times—double-bass rarely produces desirable bass.

 

To be sure that the sub receives the full bass content, why don’t you power the fronts using the UPA-700 and configure the sub in-line with those speakers?  Of course, this still leaves the double-bass issue.

 

Another alternative would be to sell the 2WQ and get a more conventional sub.  This would probably get you the best overall bass quality, if that is your objective.

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post #4324 of 9166 Old 05-08-2013, 07:14 AM
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I totally agree with you on the double bass. That is why I was thinking of going to the LFE+Main setting, because then I can still set my Xovers individually. Audyssey set my mains to full band, but I would probably set the Xover on those up to 80Hz, set my Heights to 40Hz to enable the sub, and then leave the Xovers set where Audyssey put them on the other speakers (It set my Surrounds to 80Hz, Backs to 120Hz and my Center to 150Hz for some reason). Shouldn't this eliminate the double bass issue?

I agree with the idea of getting a different second sub, and that is in my plans, but after buying this receiver I am pretty sure the CFO is not going to give me budget for anymore home theater gear for a while. tongue.gif
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post #4325 of 9166 Old 05-08-2013, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kertofer View Post

I totally agree with you on the double bass. That is why I was thinking of going to the LFE+Main setting, because then I can still set my Xovers individually. Audyssey set my mains to full band, but I would probably set the Xover on those up to 80Hz, set my Heights to 40Hz to enable the sub, and then leave the Xovers set where Audyssey put them on the other speakers (It set my Surrounds to 80Hz, Backs to 120Hz and my Center to 150Hz for some reason). Shouldn't this eliminate the double bass issue?

I agree with the idea of getting a different second sub, and that is in my plans, but after buying this receiver I am pretty sure the CFO is not going to give me budget for anymore home theater gear for a while. tongue.gif

 

This doesn't answer the first concern--does the Height channel receive the full bass signal?  If not, then your plan wouldn't work.

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post #4326 of 9166 Old 05-08-2013, 07:56 AM
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Now that question I do not have an answer to. But I will try it out tonight and let you know if I am seeing bass coming through the sub.

Thanks for the help guys!
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post #4327 of 9166 Old 05-08-2013, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kertofer View Post

I totally agree with you on the double bass. That is why I was thinking of going to the LFE+Main setting, because then I can still set my Xovers individually. Audyssey set my mains to full band, but I would probably set the Xover on those up to 80Hz, set my Heights to 40Hz to enable the sub, and then leave the Xovers set where Audyssey put them on the other speakers (It set my Surrounds to 80Hz, Backs to 120Hz and my Center to 150Hz for some reason). Shouldn't this eliminate the double bass issue?

I agree with the idea of getting a different second sub, and that is in my plans, but after buying this receiver I am pretty sure the CFO is not going to give me budget for anymore home theater gear for a while. tongue.gif

 

This Audyssey FAQ answer contains some good reasons why LFE + Main is a bad idea:

 

f)7.    What is ‘LFE + Main’ or ‘Double Bass’ and should I use it?

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post #4328 of 9166 Old 05-08-2013, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kertofer View Post

I totally agree with you on the double bass. That is why I was thinking of going to the LFE+Main setting, because then I can still set my Xovers individually. Audyssey set my mains to full band, but I would probably set the Xover on those up to 80Hz, set my Heights to 40Hz to enable the sub, and then leave the Xovers set where Audyssey put them on the other speakers (It set my Surrounds to 80Hz, Backs to 120Hz and my Center to 150Hz for some reason). Shouldn't this eliminate the double bass issue?

I agree with the idea of getting a different second sub, and that is in my plans, but after buying this receiver I am pretty sure the CFO is not going to give me budget for anymore home theater gear for a while. tongue.gif

 

This doesn't answer the first concern--does the Height channel receive the full bass signal?  If not, then your plan wouldn't work.

 

Jerry - AFAIK the answer to that is 'no'. Roger, if he is listening, would know for sure.

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post #4329 of 9166 Old 05-08-2013, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kertofer View Post

Crap, you are correct soundofmind, I put the wrong one in my thread. I actually have one of each. The V2W has an LFE in, it is the 2Wq that I was referring too as referenced in the manufacturer pages here: http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/2Wqlit.html
OK. AFAIK, the only way to get something close to proper bass management is to set fronts to large and run the Front R/L preouts to that sub, and from there to an ext amp powring the fronts.

Personally, I'd pass that 2Wq sub along to someone else and get a V2W or any good sub that accepts the AVR sub ch preout.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #4330 of 9166 Old 05-08-2013, 11:20 AM
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Excuse me as I may not know enough about this area to ask an intelligent questions but here goes.

1. I am wondering about how well this model handles streaming HiRes MC music off a computer HD as compared to the AVR4311.

2. Also, am I correct in assuming that in that specific regard the 4520 is identical to the Mar 8801 as it shares so many chips/ and digital processing?

3. And furthermore, would that streaming capability be identical to an AVP-A1 with XT32/3D upgrade, which apparently also shares many chips?

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #4331 of 9166 Old 05-08-2013, 11:56 AM
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Excuse me as I may not know enough about this area to ask an intelligent questions but here goes.



2. Also, am I correct in assuming that in that specific regard the 4520 is identical to the Mar 8801 as it shares so many chips/ and digital processing?



From what I researched over on the 8801 forum and here, the DAC, video processor, and system microprocessor chips are identical in both units and both manufactured by Texas Instruments. The technical specs in both manuals appear to be identical as well, and they share the same SNR and noise floor ratings (in preamp-only mode).
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post #4332 of 9166 Old 05-08-2013, 02:18 PM
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Took a call to customer service but non-Responsive remote problem solved.

I had to go into RC- setup and set the remote ID to "ID-1". It was sent set at "ID-2".

The remote works as it should now.
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post #4333 of 9166 Old 05-08-2013, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by moparfan View Post

Took a call to customer service but non-Responsive remote problem solved.

I had to go into RC- setup and set the remote ID to "ID-1". It was sent set at "ID-2".

The remote works as it should now.

Thanks for posting your solution, it may help others now.

Jerry
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post #4334 of 9166 Old 05-09-2013, 07:33 AM
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So I put in a question to Ask Audyssey on my subwoofer question yesterday and received the answer back that by setting LFE+Main and leaving the crossover frequency in place as Audyssey set them (I actually bumped it up a bit fo rmy mains, which Audyssey had set to full band so I upped that to 80Hz) I am basically achieving the same thing as setting the speakers to Small. I then did some testing with having the second sub sired inline with the Height channels and setting the crossover (As Audyssey measured) to 40Hz. There was definitely bass coming through the sub, albeit not as much as I have coming through my LFE based sub, which is pretty much what you guys were theorizing.

Since this appears to be a workable solution that should not be really compromising my sound quality I plan to leave this in place until I have the extra cash to get a second LFE style sub and get rid of my old Vandy 2W.

Just wanted to follow up and let you guys know what the testing of these settings showed.

Thanks again for all the great advice!
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post #4335 of 9166 Old 05-09-2013, 07:41 AM
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The reduced level of the sub in line with the Height speakers is not likely contributing anything to your overall bass response (placebo at best).  Have you tried a more conventional approach--setting all speakers to Small and removing the sub?  I would wager that your overall sound quality would improve.

 

BTW, you never answered the question--why not use the Emotiva to drive the front speakers and hook that sub in line to these speakers?

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post #4336 of 9166 Old 05-09-2013, 08:38 AM
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AustinJerry, i will try that out and see what happens. You may be correct. I'll let you know what I get when I try that.

The reason I do not want to use the Emotiva to drive the front speakers is simply overall power output of the various channels. The Emotiva is only an 80W/channel amp whereas I have a lot more headroom on the Denon.
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post #4337 of 9166 Old 05-09-2013, 09:03 AM
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I have contractors working on the outside of my house today, generating quite a bit of noise.  So I decided to pull out the headphones to listen to some music.  Much to my dismay, when I plugged in the headphones, I was only getting sound from the right channel.  I have used headphones with the 4520 before, and I know that everything was working properly the last time.  I also tested the headphones on the 4311 in the bedroom, and they are not the problem.

 

So, I tried a deep reset, reloaded my configuration, and tried the headphones again.  No joy--still a dead left channel.  Anyone else have a suggestion?  Is a bad headphone channel enough of an issue to request a replacement, or will Denon insist on having it sent in for repair?

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post #4338 of 9166 Old 05-09-2013, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I have contractors working on the outside of my house today, generating quite a bit of noise.  So I decided to pull out the headphones to listen to some music.  Much to my dismay, when I plugged in the headphones, I was only getting sound from the right channel.  I have used headphones with the 4520 before, and I know that everything was working properly the last time.  I also tested the headphones on the 4311 in the bedroom, and they are not the problem.

 

So, I tried a deep reset, reloaded my configuration, and tried the headphones again.  No joy--still a dead left channel.  Anyone else have a suggestion?  Is a bad headphone channel enough of an issue to request a replacement, or will Denon insist on having it sent in for repair?

 

Sorry to hear this, Jerry. If you are in an adventurous mood you might care to take a peek under the hood of your unit and see if there is anything obviously wrong, such as a disconnected wire to the headphone jack etc. Also worth a try is to vigorously insert, remove and reinsert the headphone jack a few times to see if something is 'sticking' and you can free it if so. 

 

I don't know how you'd fare in the US wrt to consumer law. In the UK they would be forced to replace the unit for a new one if it was less than 6 months old. After 6 months they would probably offer a repair under warranty. Sending it in for such a (probably) minor issue is going to be a pain I agree.

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post #4339 of 9166 Old 05-09-2013, 09:16 AM
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^ I would probably ask Denon for a replacement instead of a repair since that is probably a board issue (similar to the other reported issues of one channel not working). Then your unit can be relisted as a refurb on Denon or A4L, and months down the line we can see a fresh owner report the same issue tongue.gif

I tested headphones on mine last month and didn't have any issues at all. When you connect your headphones, do you see the display recognize the headphones being plugged in?
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post #4340 of 9166 Old 05-09-2013, 09:18 AM
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^ I would probably ask Denon for a replacement instead of a repair since that is probably a board issue (similar to the other reported issues of one channel not working). Then your unit can be relisted as a refurb on Denon or A4L, and months down the line we can see a fresh owner report the same issue tongue.gif

I tested headphones on mine last month and didn't have any issues at all. When you connect your headphones, do you see the display recognize the headphones being plugged in?

 

Yes, the headphones are recognized.  And I also tried Keith's suggestion to vigorously insert and remove the cable.  Next, I may pop the cover to see if I can see anything.

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post #4341 of 9166 Old 05-09-2013, 09:22 AM
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Yes, the headphones are recognized.  And I also tried Keith's suggestion to vigorously insert and remove the cable.  Next, I may pop the cover to see if I can see anything.

That is definitely the best suggestion. As rare as it might seem, I have seen in the past a cable needing to be properly reseated after shipment on various electronics.
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post #4342 of 9166 Old 05-09-2013, 09:46 AM
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Well, the headphone jack is soldered onto a PC board behind the front panel.  No wires that could be loose.  Now to re-connect all the cables--what a PITA!   frown.gif

 

 

 

 

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post #4343 of 9166 Old 05-09-2013, 10:03 AM
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Well, the headphone jack is soldered onto a PC board behind the front panel.  No wires that could be loose.  Now to re-connect all the cables--what a PITA!   frown.gif

 

 

 

A PITA indeed, Jerry. I feel your pain. Things like this drive me nuts.

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post #4344 of 9166 Old 05-09-2013, 10:04 AM
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AustinJerry, i will try that out and see what happens. You may be correct. I'll let you know what I get when I try that.
The reason I do not want to use the Emotiva to drive the front speakers is simply overall power output of the various channels. The Emotiva is only an 80W/channel amp whereas I have a lot more headroom on the Denon.
You should give that a try as I'm not sure there's reaaly all that much diff between that emo and the int amps. The UPA-7 is conservatively rated @80 watts all chs driven into 8ohms. The AVR may perform somewhere in that range- but we don't have reliable bench measurements on the 4520 AFAIK. I doubt there's audible difference and neither will be all chs driven in your setup anyway. I tested a UPA2 against the 4311 driving 4ohm low effic speakers set to large and heard no diff @ reference level.

2. The front chs get full bass content-but who knows what the heights get.

I'm confused-you aren't running your other VanD sub off the 4520 sub out, are you?

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #4345 of 9166 Old 05-09-2013, 10:08 AM
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@AustinJerry
Perhaps blowing some compressed air into the headphone jack would be worth a try?
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post #4346 of 9166 Old 05-09-2013, 10:35 AM
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Well, the headphone jack is soldered onto a PC board behind the front panel.  No wires that could be loose.  Now to re-connect all the cables--what a PITA!   frown.gif


Maybe take a peek down that headphone TRS connector with a pen light just to be thorough?
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post #4347 of 9166 Old 05-09-2013, 11:33 AM
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You should give that a try as I'm not sure there's reaaly all that much diff between that emo and the int amps. The UPA-7 is conservatively rated @80 watts all chs driven into 8ohms. The AVR may perform somewhere in that range- but we don't have reliable bench measurements on the 4520 AFAIK. I doubt there's audible difference and neither will be all chs driven in your setup anyway. I tested a UPA2 against the 4311 driving 4ohm low effic speakers set to large and heard no diff @ reference level.

2. The front chs get full bass content-but who knows what the heights get.

I'm confused-you aren't running your other VanD sub off the 4520 sub out, are you?

That sounds like a very reasonable suggestion, and you may well be right about the Emo. It is rated at 80W/channel with all channels driven, and 100W/channel into 4Ohms, which is what my Center is, so it may well do exectly as you suggest.

Yes, I have the other sub (Vandersteen V2W) hooked up via the Sub 1 Out on the Denon.
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post #4348 of 9166 Old 05-09-2013, 01:14 PM
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The UPA-7 is conservatively rated @80 watts all chs driven into 8ohms. The AVR may perform somewhere in that range- but we don't have reliable bench measurements on the 4520 AFAIK. I doubt there's audible difference and neither will be all chs driven in your setup anyway.

Just wanted to clarify, is the UPA-7 or UPA-700 being discussed? If the UPA-7, then that is actually rated at 125wpc (8ohm) and 185wpc (4ohm). If I remember correctly, that was the conservative rating as well as it is was higher than the stated results.
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post #4349 of 9166 Old 05-09-2013, 02:10 PM
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I'm confused about the LED power light on the 4520. When I push the power button, the 4520 turns on and blinks red, then I hear a relay or two click and then the LED turns to a solid green. When I go to turn off the 4520, the unit will turn off and the red LED will be a solid red. Does this signify that the AVR is in stand by mode?

I remember a post by jdsmoothie that mentioned that a solid red LED in standby means that there are two possible items in the setup menu that are active. I don't remember what those two are.

Your help would be appreciated.

Gerry
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post #4350 of 9166 Old 05-09-2013, 02:24 PM
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I'm confused about the LED power light on the 4520. When I push the power button, the 4520 turns on and blinks red, then I hear a relay or two click and then the LED turns to a solid green. When I go to turn off the 4520, the unit will turn off and the red LED will be a solid red. Does this signify that the AVR is in stand by mode?

I remember a post by jdsmoothie that mentioned that a solid red LED in standby means that there are two possible items in the setup menu that are active. I don't remember what those two are.

Your help would be appreciated.

Gerry

Depends on whether the network is set to "Always On" or "Off in Standby" mode. If the former, then the power LED will remain red when the unit is in standby. If the latter, then the power LED is dark in standby.
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