The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 148 - AVS Forum
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post #4411 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 06:20 AM
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The only time more amplification is going to make an improvement is if the existing amp is struggling to push the speakers. On a lot of forums you will see people with very low end receivers trying to push more mid level speakers, especially when they buy 4 Ohm speakers without really knowing what that means, and the receiver will struggle to push them at any louder volume.
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post #4412 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I have a nagging little issue involving my DirecTV DVR's. I have two Hr-24's connected to the 4520 using HDMI. When I am not watching video content, the DVR's are tuned to a music channel, which plays on the 4520 in PLII Music mode. So, I will be watching a typical recorded HD program playing in Dolby Digital and need to take a quick be break from the program. I press Exit, which exits to the music channel playing in PLII Music mode. When I come back, I press the Previous button, which takes me back to the recorded HD program. Problem is, something happens with the audio--it doesn't switch back to Dolby Digital, resulting no audio at all. The fix is simple--I pause and re-start the recorded program, and the audio is immediately restored.

This is really a minor issue, with a reasonable and immediate fix. My reason for reporting it is to see if I am alone in experiencing the issue, or whether others are seeing it as well. And, of course, to solicit any clever suggestions on how the issue might be resolved.

I had a similar problem with my Tivo DVR and my HDMI matrix switcher (audio popping sound when Tivo was switching between PCM and Dolby formats). There were two solutions that worked in my case: either using the Tosalink output on the Tivo for audio and only the HDMI output for video or splitting the HDMI output with a 1 x 2 splitter and running one HDMI connection diretcly to the 4520ci and one to the HDMI matrix switcher.

According to Tivo this is some sort of HDMI output problem/EDID issue on their DVRs.
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post #4413 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Of course.  The instructions are here.

Thanks. I saw that PC save config feature. My quesiton is whether there is a way to toggle between two Audacity configs with a command onthe 4520ci itself (e.g. 5.1 movie watching mode calibration and 17 channel big room stereo for music at parties). Listening positions are much different in my case for music and movies as I have a big open floor plan loft.
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post #4414 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 06:55 AM
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Pgor888, when you used the splitter were you able to get DD audio through the Denon but still have audio to your other sinks (TV's) via your splitter?
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post #4415 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 08:12 AM
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Yes, I was worried the 1x2 HDMI splitter would kill the DD signal but found a well reviewed inexpensive unit on Amazon that worked flawlessly. I bought several more to use in combination with some HDMI audio extractors I got on monoprice to create an analog audio signal from my IMac and Apple Tivo for Zones2 and Zone3 of the 4520ci (and another multizone analog amp I have). I have a rather complicated set up with 3 displays, 21.2 speakers, and a centralized A/C closet and really need analog audio from all my sources to push to the displays outside of the main home theater viewing zone.
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post #4416 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgor888 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Of course.  The instructions are here.

Thanks. I saw that PC save config feature. My quesiton is whether there is a way to toggle between two Audacity configs with a command onthe 4520ci itself (e.g. 5.1 movie watching mode calibration and 17 channel big room stereo for music at parties). Listening positions are much different in my case for music and movies as I have a big open floor plan loft.

No, the only way to save multiple Audyssey configurations is via the PC save/load config feature.

That said, why on earth do you need an Audyssey calibration for a "17 channel big room stereo for music at parties"??! Can you explain a bit more about your setup with specifics, how are you intending to drive those 17 (!!) speakers?

My gut feeling based on the limited information you have provided is that you shouldn't even worry about a 2nd Audyssey config, just have your standard calibrated HT multch setup and then pipe audio via Zone pre-outs to an external amp to power the "party music" setup.

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post #4417 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

Quote:
When I had a pair of Polk towers I saw a lot of silly stuff posted on the Polk forums, such as replacing the jumpers bridging the wire lugs on the back of the speaker with "higher quality" metal or wire "completely opens up the sound" and such.

Thanks.
I've seen some of those comments as well as others claiming drastic improvements with more amplification. Anytime I see "drastic" or "night & day improvements" mentioned I'm skeptical that's why I asked in this thread too. The only reason I considered it was because of the mass recommendations for more power for these particular speakers. I think I'll pass on the amp.

Good instincts. Any time you see someone talking about "night and day!" differences you should be rightly suspicious. Unless you are talking about something drastic, like switching out a dinky little micro-sat HTIB setup for some big expensive full-sized speakers, or swapping a $200 entry-level sub for a $1000 SVS or something, most changes in an audio system are going to be subtle. It's always good to take adjectives on the internet with a grain of salt.

In reference to your query about the amps + polks, the thing with those types of owner's threads is that there is going to be a lot of unconscious groupthink effect generating expectation bias and a lack of non-critical listening tests.... and therefore lots of placebo effect. I would think if you have your standard "speaker brand X" owner's thread and everyone is crowing about how their new amps made a "drastic" improvement "even at low volumes!" it's unlikely that somebody is going to want to break up the party by posting, "gee, I added an amp and did some blinded A/B tests and I really couldn't hear a difference."
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post #4418 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 09:58 AM
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I agree with batpig wholeheartedly. In fact, if you mix the wrong components together, you could conceivably end up spending more cash, and take a step down in audio quality.
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post #4419 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 10:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Idle. But to the degree the amps all share transformer and capacitance, idle channels in a sense increase the remaining amps ability to respond to peaks. That's why generally speaking power available @ any given %THD goes up considerably the fewere channels are driven, and vice versa.
And thus, 1 more reason I use 'phantom' mode and DO NOT utilize a center channel speaker. wink.gif
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post #4420 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

 


That said, why on earth do you need an Audyssey calibration for a "17 channel big room stereo for music at parties"??! Can you explain a bit more about your setup with specifics, how are you intending to drive those 17 (!!) speakers?

My gut feeling based on the limited information you have provided is that you shouldn't even worry about a 2nd Audyssey config, just have your standard calibrated HT multch setup and then pipe audio via Zone pre-outs to an external amp to power the "party music" setup.

 

This dude sounds like he holds kick-ass parties!  How do we get an invite?  LOL..

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post #4421 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Idle. But to the degree the amps all share transformer and capacitance, idle channels in a sense increase the remaining amps ability to respond to peaks. That's why generally speaking power available @ any given %THD goes up considerably the fewere channels are driven, and vice versa.
And thus, 1 more reason I use 'phantom' mode and DO NOT utilize a center channel speaker. wink.gif

 

Unless you are seriously lacking in amp capability, I’d have thought the negatives of not using a centre channel speaker would be outweighed by any differences in the output capability of the amp when it is driving one channel less.  A phantom centre speaker will only image centrally, for example, for one listener in the room. In a home theatre environment any other listeners will have the centre image skewed considerably towards the side of the room they are sitting in. Generally speaking, an actual speaker is always going to give a better result that a 'phantom' speaker.

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post #4422 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 11:42 AM
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That's why I am about to start using 3 centre speakers

just 1 more pair of KLIPSCH Classic speakers...
RED AND BLUE=MAROON!

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post #4423 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

No, the only way to save multiple Audyssey configurations is via the PC save/load config feature.

That said, why on earth do you need an Audyssey calibration for a "17 channel big room stereo for music at parties"??! Can you explain a bit more about your setup with specifics, how are you intending to drive those 17 (!!) speakers?

My gut feeling based on the limited information you have provided is that you shouldn't even worry about a 2nd Audyssey config, just have your standard calibrated HT multch setup and then pipe audio via Zone pre-outs to an external amp to power the "party music" setup.

BatPig, I was hoping you would respond as I was sure if it could be done you would know.

Was going to post a thread about my set up once I am done with the programming but here it is in a nutshell. My house is 4000 sf loft with a very open floor plan. I use the 4520ci as a pre-amp only along with a 6 zone HTD MC66 pre amp that are powered by 2 Emotiva XPA-5s and a UPA-700. The sources for the amps are effectively bridged with a Key Digital 10x6 HDMI matrix and a 8x8 pro audio matrix. I have 19 channels driven right now with that set up + 2 powered subs (JL Audios Fathom f113s). Speakers are 8 high wall mounted B&W 685s, 3 in-ceiling AT 8.3Es, and Artison masterpiece dual monos for the main home theater zone. As mentioned all gear is in a head end closet (see my avatar). All control is via an RTI front end/RS232.

I can get you my wiring/floor plan and gear list and pictures if you are interested but essentially when I am not watching movies or TV I am listening to music while I move around the house (or throw get togethers). Think more of a night club set up and you will get the idea (I even have low profile LED club lights). See pictures attached.

My friend and installer who is a commercial installer/DJ for restaurants and clubs is going to calibrate the big room music profile for me. Given the speaker placement and acoustics in the loft a professional calibration for music is as important to me as a home theater calibration via XT32. However, with the 2 calibrations I will need a way to toggle between them via the Denon (and controllable via RS232). So if I run manual set up and invest the time to dial in the sound for music in a big room format I want to be able to save that and I was not sure how that could be done other than through the Audacity set-up save function – my assumption was that an Audacity set-up for would override the manual set-up and could not be used as a parallel set up. Is this correct?



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post #4424 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 12:08 PM
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I do and you are invited to my next one in 2 weeks if you can help me figure out my calibration question.
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post #4425 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 12:13 PM
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post #4426 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgor888 View Post

I do and you are invited to my next one in 2 weeks if you can help me figure out my calibration question.

 

LOL!  Sadly, I am thousands of miles, an ocean and a continent away from you. I want to come party with you even more now I've seen the photos of your loft. Sensational! 

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post #4427 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 12:16 PM
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That is a gorgeous place you have there pgor!
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post #4428 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 01:03 PM
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Thanks! It was a grueling 14 month planning/construction process to get it to this point but other than these final AV issues I am done.
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post #4429 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

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Originally Posted by SanchoPanza View Post

That's why I am about to start using 3 centre speakers

Why three?  And in what configuration?

Sorry not with a 4520, so a bit off topic for this thread. Will post some more in the 3312 thread when I get it back from Denon & set it up.

just 1 more pair of KLIPSCH Classic speakers...
RED AND BLUE=MAROON!

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post #4430 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
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pgor -- as others have already said that is an absolutely gorgeous space. Lucky man! And a great (but complicated) setup you have working there. I don't see your location listed so I want to know if I can make it your next party wink.giftongue.gif

Of course, it's also probably an acoustic nightmare! Where is the HT display, do you project on the white wall or is there a drop-downscreen somewhere?

All that said, I still don't think Audyssey (not Audacity!!) is the correct tool for the job for "party time". Audyssey is really a home theater calibration tool, not intended for multi-stereo distribution as in a bar or nightclub. How would it even work with 17 channels? The 4520 can at most calibrate 11 independent channels.

I'm also still unclear as to whether some of the speakers are doing "double duty" in the HT setup vs. the music setup.

Anyway, bottom line is that I still think you need to imagine this as two independent setups -- an HT setup powered by the 4520, and then a separate stereo distribution "nightclub" system. You can still use the 4520 as the "head unit" for source switching but I would just feed the music setup via Zone pre-outs. For the main zone, you could just toggle the EQ setting from Audyssey EQ to manual EQ but there is no simple way to switch between two totally separate speakers systems.

Basically, I think the bottom line is that the 4520 is the wrong tool for the job of calibrating a 17 speaker nightclub style stereo music distribution setup. It does have a built in manual (graphic) EQ system but again there are only 11 channels available. What does your friend think? I'm sure he was some suggestions for the appropriate gear (multichannel mixing board?) to allow him to calibrate the music distribution portion which could go downstream from the 4520.

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post #4431 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

pgor -- as others have already said that is an absolutely gorgeous space. Lucky man! And a great (but complicated) setup you have working there. I don't see your location listed so I want to know if I can make it your next party wink.giftongue.gif

Of course, it's also probably an acoustic nightmare! Where is the HT display, do you project on the white wall or is there a drop-downscreen somewhere?

All that said, I still don't think Audyssey (not Audacity!!) is the correct tool for the job for "party time". Audyssey is really a home theater calibration tool, not intended for multi-stereo distribution as in a bar or nightclub. How would it even work with 17 channels? The 4520 can at most calibrate 11 independent channels.

I'm also still unclear as to whether some of the speakers are doing "double duty" in the HT setup vs. the music setup.

Anyway, bottom line is that I still think you need to imagine this as two independent set ups -- an HT setup powered by the 4520, and then a separate stereo distribution "nightclub" system. You can still use the 4520 as the "head unit" for source switching but I would just feed the music setup via Zone pre-outs. For the main zone, you could just toggle the EQ setting from Audyssey EQ to manual EQ but there is no simple way to switch between two totally separate speakers systems.

Basically, I think the bottom line is that the 4520 is the wrong tool for the job of calibrating a 17 speaker nightclub style stereo music distribution setup. It does have a built in manual (graphic) EQ system but again there are only 11 channels available. What does your friend think? I'm sure he was some suggestions for the appropriate gear (multichannel mixing board?) to allow him to calibrate the music distribution portion which could go downstream from the 4520.

Thanks for the quick response. My main HD display is a 60 inch Samsung 8000 series that is on a lift that pops out of that low level piece of millwork in the living room (see attached pic of the display up). There is a 2nd wall mounted TV on one of the brick walls near the kitchen, a 3rd pop out monitor display in the AV rack, and a 4th display via an under the bed TV lift for the master bedroom.

Speakers perform double duty via toggle on and off at speaker set up main menu as well as zone 2 + zone 3 on/off and levels. I only run a 5.1 set up for my main TV zone and toggle off a set of height speaker connections when I am watching movies (they help fill out the main zone sound in music/stereo mode). Zone 2 is for my kitchen speakers and zone 3 is for my master bedroom speakers. The HTD pre amp runs 3 in-ceiling speaker zones in bathrooms/dressing room with expansion for 3 more zones in the other bedrooms. All of this control switching is a pain in the ass when done directly with the gear but we are in the process of building RS232 command macros now via the RTI XP8 that will put a seamless IOS controlled front end control on the functions and make this set up really workable on the fly. Right now my wife really hates me because she doesn't know how to turn anything on. See my attached switching connection chart and you will see why.

I live in Philadelphia. Next time you are in the area give me a shout and I will be glad to have you over in person to check out the set up and grab a drink.

On your answer to my question I see what you are saying. I guess the solution is to use the manual EQ to Audyssey EQ function as my toggle between calibrations for the speakers hooked up to the Denon. The manual set up will store the club calibration my installer dials in with levels/crossover etc. and will pair with the manual calibration for the other zone speakers hooked up via the HTD preamp. As long as I can find the Denon RS232 command for the toggle I can make it work. I just need to spend some time learning the Denon calibration menus as my installer does not have as much experience with Denon receivers as I do (I had a 4308ci previously with another complicated set up I put together myself).





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post #4432 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the quick response. My main HD display is a 60 inch Samsung 8000 series that is on a lift that pops out of that low level piece of millwork in the living room (see attached pic of the display up). There is a 2nd wall mounted TV on one of the brick walls near the kitchen, a 3rd pop out monitor display in the AV rack, and a 4th display via an under the bed TV lift for the master bedroom.

OK, forget about inviting me to the party, can you just adopt me? tongue.gif

Quote:
I guess the solution is to use the manual EQ to Audyssey EQ function as my toggle between calibrations for the speakers hooked up to the Denon. The manual set up will store the club calibration my installer dials in with levels/crossover etc. and will pair with the manual calibration for the other zone speakers hooked up via the HTD preamp. As long as I can find the Denon RS232 command for the toggle I can make it work.

The toggle should be easy, but just to be clear the EQ toggle only cycles through EQ states, NOT speaker configuration, levels or crossovers. It still won't be a solution to converting between two wholly separate configurations.

I still really think that it's best to treat this as two separate setups and if you want to apply any EQ to the rest of the speakers besides the "main zone" HT setup, do it via some external EQ inserted downstream from the 4520 after the audio leaves the Zone pre-outs. Calibrate your 7 HT speakers (5.1 + heights) with Audyssey, and feed the rest via the zones. If you want all speakers/zones firing, just active the "All Zone Stereo" feature and the same stereo audio will pump through all the connected speakers.

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post #4433 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 06:20 PM
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What size block capacitors are used in the Denon AVR-4520ci? Are they 15,000 uf capacitors like used in the Denon AVR-A100? Denon won't supply this information- they say it's proprietary!

Thanks!
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post #4434 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 06:39 PM
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What size block capacitors are used in the Denon AVR-4520ci? Are they 15,000 uf capacitors like used in the Denon AVR-A100? Denon won't supply this information- they say it's proprietary!

Thanks!

Are you sure the A-100 has 15,000? Also, I hope you meant 15,000 each, and that there are two.
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post #4435 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 07:12 PM
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OK, forget about inviting me to the party, can you just adopt me? tongue.gif
The toggle should be easy, but just to be clear the EQ toggle only cycles through EQ states, NOT speaker configuration, levels or crossovers. It still won't be a solution to converting between two wholly separate configurations.
Thanks. I will check in with my friend tomorrow and see what he has in mind.
I still really think that it's best to treat this as two separate setups and if you want to apply any EQ to the rest of the speakers besides the "main zone" HT setup, do it via some external EQ inserted downstream from the 4520 after the audio leaves the Zone pre-outs. Calibrate your 7 HT speakers (5.1 + heights) with Audyssey, and feed the rest via the zones. If you want all speakers/zones firing, just active the "All Zone Stereo" feature and the same stereo audio will pump through all the connected speakers.
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post #4436 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 07:24 PM
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Yes, the Denon AVR-A100 has 2 each 15,000 uf capacitors. That came directly from Denon support. I used to own the AVR-A100 prior to purchasing the AVR-4520.
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post #4437 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by kdjut View Post

What size block capacitors are used in the Denon AVR-4520ci? Are they 15,000 uf capacitors like used in the Denon AVR-A100? Denon won't supply this information- they say it's proprietary!

Thanks!
If you see the German review, there seems to be 44000 or 22000 times two mF worth of caps..
Quote:
Damit auch kurzfristige Stromspitzen den AVR-4520 nicht aus der Ruhe bringen, kommen zwei große Haupt-ELKOS mit jeweils 22.000 Micro-Farad zum Einsatz.
http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2012/denon_avr4520.shtml
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post #4438 of 8912 Old 05-15-2013, 08:01 PM
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Thanks for answering!
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post #4439 of 8912 Old 05-16-2013, 03:22 AM
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Thanks for the quick response. My main HD display is a 60 inch Samsung 8000 series that is on a lift that pops out of that low level piece of millwork in the living room (see attached pic of the display up). There is a 2nd wall mounted TV on one of the brick walls near the kitchen, a 3rd pop out monitor display in the AV rack, and a 4th display via an under the bed TV lift for the master bedroom.

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post #4440 of 8912 Old 05-16-2013, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Daddy it's NOT fair, why does HE get dual Submersives?!
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