The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 154 - AVS Forum
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post #4591 of 9153 Old 06-04-2013, 12:20 AM
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I know everyone likes the Emotiva stuff . . but how about the Marantz seperate amps meant for the AV8801.

Home Theater just did a test of the unit:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/marantz-av8801-surround-processor-amp-mm8077-amplifier

The M8077 tested out at:

Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 128.4 watts
1% distortion at 150.3 watts

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 113.9 watts
1% distortion at 125.4 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 108.9 watts

I'm assuming since D&M are using common designs, its probably somewhat similar to the amp circuit they put on the AVR4520, with a much better power supply.
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post #4592 of 9153 Old 06-04-2013, 03:30 PM
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4520 Temperature...............

There was some talk about the heat from the 4520 earlier in this thread so here's what I found......................
My 4520 has always seemed to run hotter than my 3311 so I bought an inexpensive fan kit from Cooler Guys. Surprisingly the volume and source doesn't seem to effect the temperature much. Once the receiver has been running for a while the temps range from about 112' to 117'. It occasionally dropped to 108' but rarely. I have a $5 dollar 4" USB fan pointing at the rear of the unit and when I turned that on it dropped the temp 15' in only 4-5 minutes so the operating temp with that fan on was right around 100'. I haven't connected the two USB fans that go on top of the AVR that I got from CoolerGuys yet as I wanted to see how hot it actually runs first. I'll set those up soon and post if anybody is interested. Now I want to test the 3311 and see if that really does run cooler.
Let me say that I have no idea how accurate this thermometer is and I also don't know what a realistic operating temperature is supposed to be for an AVR like this. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in.

Doug

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post #4593 of 9153 Old 06-04-2013, 04:08 PM
 
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Hi kicklo,
Here are answers:
Output Section: discrete DENON-Branded darlingtons with thermal tracking diodes.These parts are marked "cannot be supplied" even to authorised repairers. They can be replaced with SANKEN darlingtons if you know how to add your own external thermal tracking diodes.

VAS Section: 2 x 2N5401 and 2 X 2n5551

Input Section: HN4A06 - dual 2SA970 in a diff-amp configuration WITHOUT emitter degeneration. This is the reason for its characteristic very forward sound - distortion goes up very early in the audio band at 18db/octave from around 2khz to 70khz. Could sound nice for percussions and action movies - but almost not listenable to music.
I replaced the every input circuit in my unit with 2 x 2N5401 with 100R emitter, and proportionatel increased the current to compensate. The result is NIGHT-AND-DAY.

Others:
DACS: NJM4565 powerede at +-7 volts, too low for my taste. Added my own +- 15 volts supply and replaced them with OPA2107's and OP627. I also replaced the DAC filter caps with polystyrenes.
ADC: NJM2115 powered at +5.5volts. I replaced mine with OPA2365 and again the filter caps with polypropylenes.

Other improvements that will make a night-and-day difference to the sound of the 4520:
All originaL signal coupling caps used are polar 47ufd electrolytics drained by 10K (YUK). These must be replaced with something better.

I replaced them with Russian 30ufd PIOs after comparing (AB'ing) the originals, non-polars, PETs, Polypropylenes and the Russian PIOs. The Russian PIO's sounded very open compared to the others, the sound simply flows easily with no strain or straining. I do not know why though.
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post #4594 of 9153 Old 06-04-2013, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

4520 Temperature...............

There was some talk about the heat from the 4520 earlier in this thread so here's what I found......................
My 4520 has always seemed to run hotter than my 3311 so I bought an inexpensive fan kit from Cooler Guys. Surprisingly the volume and source doesn't seem to effect the temperature much. Once the receiver has been running for a while the temps range from about 112' to 117'. It occasionally dropped to 108' but rarely. I have a $5 dollar 4" USB fan pointing at the rear of the unit and when I turned that on it dropped the temp 15' in only 4-5 minutes so the operating temp with that fan on was right around 100'. I haven't connected the two USB fans that go on top of the AVR that I got from CoolerGuys yet as I wanted to see how hot it actually runs first. I'll set those up soon and post if anybody is interested. Now I want to test the 3311 and see if that really does run cooler.
Let me say that I have no idea how accurate this thermometer is and I also don't know what a realistic operating temperature is supposed to be for an AVR like this. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in.

 

I have never heard a definitive answer regarding what a "normal" operating temperature is.  My unit sits on an open shelf with ventilation all around.  Using an infrared thermometer, which I believe to be quite accurate, my temperatures are in the 125-130 degree range.  I have never had the 4520 complain that it is too hot.

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post #4595 of 9153 Old 06-04-2013, 04:24 PM
 
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Hi DougReim,

There is actually no need to use an external fan.

The 4520's have their own 2 fans. One on the left and one on the right. They are at the bottom and blow upwards. Just make sure that there is room at the top of the unit for the hot air to pass thru.

The action of the unit is according to the following thresholds;

FOR THE RADIATOR:
120 degrees -> Shut Down
78 degrees -> Fans run on High
70 degrees -> Fans operate

POWER TRANSISTOR:
105 degrees -> Power voltage switched to +-31 volts from normally +-70 volts
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post #4596 of 9153 Old 06-04-2013, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aringgo View Post

Hi DougReim,

There is actually no need to use an external fan.

The 4520's have their own 2 fans. One on the left and one on the right. They are at the bottom and blow upwards. Just make sure that there is room at the top of the unit for the hot air to pass thru.

The action of the unit is according to the following thresholds;

FOR THE RADIATOR:
120 degrees -> Shut Down
78 degrees -> Fans run on High
70 degrees -> Fans operate

POWER TRANSISTOR:
105 degrees -> Power voltage switched to +-31 volts from normally +-70 volts

 

Those must be Celsius.  I don't think my 4520 has ever seen 70 degrees Fahrenheit.  wink.gif

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post #4597 of 9153 Old 06-04-2013, 05:30 PM
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I need help on bi-amping the denon 4520 ci in a 7.1 setup. My speaker setup is as follows. I have the amp assign set “Assign Mode” to “7.1ch(Bi-Amp)
FRONT L
FRONT R
Center
Surround L
Surround R
Back Surround L
Back Surround R

I want to use the amps for front height or wide to connect to the highs of the Front L,R. What should be the setting to use for the main speakers?

S.Back/F.Height Outputs audio from the surround back and front
height speakers.
S.Back/F.Wide Outputs audio from the surround back and front
wide speakers.
F.Height/F.Wide Outputs audio from the front height and front
wide speakers.

Also will MultiEQ 32 work as desired for bi-amping?
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post #4598 of 9153 Old 06-04-2013, 05:40 PM
 
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4520's bi-amp modes are not real.
They are simply "bi-wired" by connecting the 2 wires of one speaker to one and the same amplifier using relays. But Denon's claim that this feature reduces feedback from the speakers of one wire to the speakers/tweeters of the other wire could perhaps be true. I did not bother to test it, but I am also using this 'bi-amp' mode just to use the empty speaker terminals.
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post #4599 of 9153 Old 06-04-2013, 05:42 PM
 
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Yes, indeed, they are in Celsius.
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post #4600 of 9153 Old 06-04-2013, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
The primary purpose for a firmware update is to fix bugs in the software. Post #4 lists the bugs that were fixed.

Gotcha.

Thanks
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post #4601 of 9153 Old 06-04-2013, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
120 degrees -> Shut Down


These things can get to 248' before shutting down? That seems dangerous.

Doug

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post #4602 of 9153 Old 06-04-2013, 06:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post

I have just developed a possible problem in the last few days... The 4520 just turns off, leaving a flashing red light. It has done this 2 or 3 times in the last few days. I thought it might be getting hot but it is doing it after being on for only a few minutes sometimes. Once it does it and I turn it back on it is fine for the rest of the night. I have been getting the firmware update notice but I have not done it... Would this solve it? Other than this it has been working perfectly.

tia,
Ron

Hi Ellisr63,
I can help diagnose the issue with your unit for free. The unit itself has diagnostic programs that can be initiated from the front panel.
There is no danger in starting the diagnostic programs of the unit itself because they are turned off when the unit is powered off.
Simply power off the unit to CANCEL the diagnostic mode.

So here it goes.

To determine the cause of the protection mode being activated do the following.
1. Press the Power button on the front while also pressing the the "ZONE/REC SELECT" and "STATUS" buttons.
Release the buttons when the front display appears to show:
"> 1. SERVICE CHECK"
" 2. PROTECTION"
2. Press DOWN-ARROW once to select "2. PROTECTION" then click ENTER.
The unit will re-start in diagnostic mode and probably still palying your favourite CD.
3. When the unit has re-started, Press the STATUS button.
The display will show the reason for the protection mode.

The second line of display will show the coded reason for the protection being engaged which could be one of;
"CURRENT"
"ASO"
"DC"
"TR"
"THERMAL",...

The corrective action will of course depend of what it was that the unit was complaining about.
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post #4603 of 9153 Old 06-04-2013, 07:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

These things can get to 248' before shutting down? That seems dangerous.

What is 248 degrees to a piece of rock?
I hand-solder VERY TINY surface mount semiconductors, capacitors, etc as a matter of course - and even when things do not go right as planned - it always turn up "THEY ARE STILL ALIVE".

I have a CLASS-A toy that I also use to keep my pyrex coffee mug boiling while enjoying music.
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post #4604 of 9153 Old 06-04-2013, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aringgo View Post

Hi Ellisr63,
I can help diagnose the issue with your unit for free. The unit itself has diagnostic programs that can be initiated from the front panel.
There is no danger in starting the diagnostic programs of the unit itself because they are turned off when the unit is powered off.
Simply power off the unit to CANCEL the diagnostic mode.

So here it goes.

To determine the cause of the protection mode being activated do the following.
1. Press the Power button on the front while also pressing the the "ZONE/REC SELECT" and "STATUS" buttons.
Release the buttons when the front display appears to show:
"> 1. SERVICE CHECK"
" 2. PROTECTION"
2. Press DOWN-ARROW once to select "2. PROTECTION" then click ENTER.
The unit will re-start in diagnostic mode and probably still palying your favourite CD.
3. When the unit has re-started, Press the STATUS button.
The display will show the reason for the protection mode.

The second line of display will show the coded reason for the protection being engaged which could be one of;
"CURRENT"
"ASO"
"DC"
"TR"
"THERMAL",...

The corrective action will of course depend of what it was that the unit was complaining about.

Wow, that's pretty interesting stuff. What are your credentials? Are you associated with Denon?
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post #4605 of 9153 Old 06-04-2013, 08:08 PM
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I can tell you, regarding heat, that I put a 120MM computer case fan on top of my unit blowing up and away from it and when I touch any portion of the case, even after watching a couple of movies at a solid volume, it is not even warm to the touch.

I put the fan in more because I am not confident in how well ventilated my closet is as opposed to being concerned about how hot the Denon was getting beforehand.
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post #4606 of 9153 Old 06-04-2013, 08:23 PM
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I didn't find anything by searching the thread so I'm hoping someone can help me through a problem related to playing Flac files. I'm trying to use my 4520 music server function to play back flac files on my computer. But it doesn't find the file. The part i can't figure out is that it finds my computer on the network, the artist folder and the individual album folders. But when I drill down to the album folder it says the folder is empty. However I know this isn't the case as it's the same folders that my Squeezebox Touch uses in other rooms. confused.gif

Has anyone else encountered this? Any suggestions would be appreciated.
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post #4607 of 9153 Old 06-04-2013, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aringgo View Post

Hi Ellisr63,
I can help diagnose the issue with your unit for free. The unit itself has diagnostic programs that can be initiated from the front panel.
There is no danger in starting the diagnostic programs of the unit itself because they are turned off when the unit is powered off.
Simply power off the unit to CANCEL the diagnostic mode.

So here it goes.

To determine the cause of the protection mode being activated do the following.
1. Press the Power button on the front while also pressing the the "ZONE/REC SELECT" and "STATUS" buttons.
Release the buttons when the front display appears to show:
"> 1. SERVICE CHECK"
" 2. PROTECTION"
2. Press DOWN-ARROW once to select "2. PROTECTION" then click ENTER.
The unit will re-start in diagnostic mode and probably still palying your favourite CD.
3. When the unit has re-started, Press the STATUS button.
The display will show the reason for the protection mode.

The second line of display will show the coded reason for the protection being engaged which could be one of;
"CURRENT"
"ASO"
"DC"
"TR"
"THERMAL",...

The corrective action will of course depend of what it was that the unit was complaining about.

Do I need to wait until it does it again or does it save the codes?

tia,
Ron

Denon 4520ci, 3 JBL 2360As/EV DHA-1s, 3 1/4 Pie bass bins, MiniDSP 2x4s, 4 Klipsch HIPs, 2 Klipsch KP3002s, PS3, XBox 360, 3 Intel NUCs, Monoprice Redmere, Monster HTPS7000, 2 SUPER SPUD subs, Panasonic AE8000u, and a Yamaha P7000s.
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post #4608 of 9153 Old 06-04-2013, 09:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Wow, that's pretty interesting stuff. What are your credentials? Are you associated with Denon?
No I am not.

I bought the 4520 because it was the best that I could find in the shop (for the price I was willing to pay).
However, when it got home the sound of the unit does not even come close to my other 'DIY' toys so I have to "forgo the warranty" and modify it to suit me - (Of course after getting access to its service manual).
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post #4609 of 9153 Old 06-04-2013, 09:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post

Do I need to wait until it does it again or does it save the codes?

tia,
Ron

No. The unit actually stores its own fault history including those when it was still in Denon's factory.
There are other steps (sequences of buttons presses) that will list the history, others to exercise just some circuits, etc.

The steps I asked you to do will simply show the code of the most recent fault episode.
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post #4610 of 9153 Old 06-04-2013, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aringgo View Post

No I am not.

I bought the 4520 because it was the best that I could find in the shop (for the price I was willing to pay).
However, when it got home the sound of the unit does not even come close to my other 'DIY' toys so I have to "forgo the warranty" and modify it to suit me - (Of course after getting access to its service manual).

Please post up the results of your research!
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post #4611 of 9153 Old 06-05-2013, 02:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

Please post up the results of your research!

Another thing that might be of interest to those planning to use the 4520 as a preamp/controller for external power amps that are better than the 9 internal ones.
The 4520 will be very good for this - NOT A SINGLE SIGNAL-COUPLING CAPACITOR is used for the analog signal up to the pre-out terminals. Good for signal purity - beware though of cheap source components - a DC there could fry your external amp as well.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

Please post up the results of your research!

Another thing that might be of interest to those planning to use the 4520 as a preamp/controller for external power amps that are better than the 9 internal ones.
The 4520 will be very good for this - NOT A SINGLE SIGNAL-COUPLING CAPACITOR is used for the analog signal up to the pre-out terminals. Good for signal purity - beware though of cheap source components - a DC there could roast your speaker.

Caution: Measure the DC offset your analog sources' outputs first before plugging them in. After that, lookup the internet for formula or tools to convert your measurement into how much that would be at the speakers. Perhaps, use as a guide 23 to 30 amplifier gain.

This might not be entirely correct, though, because I do not know whether or not the RENESAS function processor chips have signal decoupling caps internally. But even if they have, they are not worse than what the others have.
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post #4613 of 9153 Old 06-05-2013, 04:12 AM
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aringgo,

Welcome to the forum. It's nice of you to come here and help us out, you obviously know your way around your electronics. I had no idea you could diagnose protection failures like that.
You're probably providing some other great info as well but man, could you dumb it down a little. smile.gifsmile.gif
Out of curiosity what did you find lacking with the 4520's sound?

Doug

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post #4614 of 9153 Old 06-05-2013, 05:33 AM
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Wow this is a lot more info than I expected, thanks a lot!

I do have another question (kind a stupid one), my main speakers do not support bi-amping, but I wish I could use the bi-amp feature 4520 offers. So is it possible that I setup bi-amp in 4520, and use 4 wires speaker cable, at speak end, connect 2+ together and 2- together, run output parallel thus increase output power into speakers?




Quote:
Originally Posted by aringgo View Post

Hi kicklo,
Here are answers:
Output Section: discrete DENON-Branded darlingtons with thermal tracking diodes.These parts are marked "cannot be supplied" even to authorised repairers. They can be replaced with SANKEN darlingtons if you know how to add your own external thermal tracking diodes.

VAS Section: 2 x 2N5401 and 2 X 2n5551

Input Section: HN4A06 - dual 2SA970 in a diff-amp configuration WITHOUT emitter degeneration. This is the reason for its characteristic very forward sound - distortion goes up very early in the audio band at 18db/octave from around 2khz to 70khz. Could sound nice for percussions and action movies - but almost not listenable to music.
I replaced the every input circuit in my unit with 2 x 2N5401 with 100R emitter, and proportionatel increased the current to compensate. The result is NIGHT-AND-DAY.

Others:
DACS: NJM4565 powerede at +-7 volts, too low for my taste. Added my own +- 15 volts supply and replaced them with OPA2107's and OP627. I also replaced the DAC filter caps with polystyrenes.
ADC: NJM2115 powered at +5.5volts. I replaced mine with OPA2365 and again the filter caps with polypropylenes.

Other improvements that will make a night-and-day difference to the sound of the 4520:
All originaL signal coupling caps used are polar 47ufd electrolytics drained by 10K (YUK). These must be replaced with something better.

I replaced them with Russian 30ufd PIOs after comparing (AB'ing) the originals, non-polars, PETs, Polypropylenes and the Russian PIOs. The Russian PIO's sounded very open compared to the others, the sound simply flows easily with no strain or straining. I do not know why though.
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post #4615 of 9153 Old 06-05-2013, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kicklo View Post

Wow this is a lot more info than I expected, thanks a lot!

I do have another question (kind a stupid one), my main speakers do not support bi-amping, but I wish I could use the bi-amp feature 4520 offers. So is it possible that I setup bi-amp in 4520, and use 4 wires speaker cable, at speak end, connect 2+ together and 2- together, run output parallel thus increase output power into speakers?
 

 

It's a waste of wire. It won't 'increase output power into speakers' (google superposition theory).

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post #4616 of 9153 Old 06-05-2013, 05:45 AM
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I mean wiring like following:

4520 AMP1+ -> Speaker +
4520 AMP2+ -> Speaker +
4520 AMP1- -> Speaker -
4520 AMP2- -> Speaker -


and amp1/amp2 is bi-amping. It will increase current output, at least, right?




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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It's a waste of wire. It won't 'increase output power into speakers' (google superposition theory).
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post #4617 of 9153 Old 06-05-2013, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aringgo View Post

No I am not.

I bought the 4520 because it was the best that I could find in the shop (for the price I was willing to pay).
However, when it got home the sound of the unit does not even come close to my other 'DIY' toys so I have to "forgo the warranty" and modify it to suit me - (Of course after getting access to its service manual).
[

You lost me at replacing internal parts for a "night and day difference" and the part about music being practically unlistenable. While you may know what you or doing (or you may not) I don't think it will be much help to users of this forum. That's just my opinion though. If someone wants to swap out parts and see what happens it's their money. I would not recommend experimenting based on a new member's professed knowledge.
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post #4618 of 9153 Old 06-05-2013, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kicklo View Post

I mean wiring like following:

4520 AMP1+ -> Speaker +
4520 AMP2+ -> Speaker +
4520 AMP1- -> Speaker -
4520 AMP2- -> Speaker -


and amp1/amp2 is bi-amping. It will increase current output, at least, right?




Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It's a waste of wire. It won't 'increase output power into speakers' (google superposition theory).

 

It's a waste of time and money. Did you google superposition theory?

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post #4619 of 9153 Old 06-05-2013, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Hudson View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by aringgo View Post

No I am not.

I bought the 4520 because it was the best that I could find in the shop (for the price I was willing to pay).
However, when it got home the sound of the unit does not even come close to my other 'DIY' toys so I have to "forgo the warranty" and modify it to suit me - (Of course after getting access to its service manual).
[

You lost me at replacing internal parts for a "night and day difference" and the part about music being practically unlistenable. While you may know what you or doing (or you may not) I don't think it will be much help to users of this forum. That's just my opinion though. If someone wants to swap out parts and see what happens it's their money. I would not recommend experimenting based on a new member's professed knowledge.

 

 

+1.  

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post #4620 of 9153 Old 06-05-2013, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kicklo View Post

I mean wiring like following:
4520 AMP1+ -> Speaker +
4520 AMP2+ -> Speaker +
4520 AMP1- -> Speaker -
4520 AMP2- -> Speaker -
and amp1/amp2 is bi-amping. It will increase current output, at least, right?
NOOOoooooo!!! eek.gif

Do not connect more than 1 amp directly to your speaker's single set of binding posts.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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