The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 9671 Old 10-21-2012, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Thx Daniel, so the Alum case being better engineered/optimized year-year with CAE/Finite element analaysis possibly counts for some of the reduction in 4308-4310-4311 weight, and now the 4520....I'm ok with that.
Still, I'd like technical/performance power comparison of 4520 vs 5308 real world usage.
Something AVS or Audioaholicis may take up??
Ano NO, I don't have a 4520 yet......still thinking.

Well i personally would not be shocked if the 4520 and 5308 would be very close in power output. There will be area's where the 5308 will have the edge but unless you do the xt32 upgrade the 4520 would probably be my pick. Now imho the avp is on a different level since the whole analog and powersupply is so massively different from both. The shared part between the 5308 and avp was mostly its digital and processing parts a area where time moves on and 4520 had it easiest to catch up. Ive just seen someone talk about a avp below $3000 with the update for me it would be no contest smile.gif

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post #452 of 9671 Old 10-21-2012, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Thx Daniel, so the Alum case being better engineered/optimized year-year with CAE/Finite element analaysis possibly counts for some of the reduction in 4308-4310-4311 weight, and now the 4520....I'm ok with that.
Still, I'd like technical/performance power comparison of 4520 vs 5308 real world usage.
Something AVS or Audioaholicis may take up??
Ano NO, I don't have a 4520 yet......still thinking.
+1
Somehow, it's a bit hard to understand that a much light amp has the same power capability?
Also, I notice that modern amp have less caps, eg my 4311 has lower rated caps than my older Marantz SR 12 S1, which had 90 000 mF worth of caps for seven channels. My even more ancient SR 18 EX had 90 000 for 5 channels. Now that's power.

Happy to know that the light weight is related to some improvement or more more efficient design, but I doubt it.

I will buy the 4520 or AV 8801 as a processor, and the internal amps of the 4520 will be a good bonus to power the rear channels, but I am considering a Mcintosh MC 8207 or something warm for my fronts.

Also, someone I know in the DACs industry, who has access to top end amps, says that D&M are on a costing cutting drive owing to recent events, so neither the 4520 or AV 8801 are their best products and they needed to jack up the costs. The Onkyo, Pioneer and Yamaha amps are better, when you come HT performance in this generation..

I was a little affected, since I am a big D & M fan, having owned 5 of their amps. Nevertheless, I am still looking out for a reason to swop out my 4311 for these two.

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post #453 of 9671 Old 10-22-2012, 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

+1
Somehow, it's a bit hard to understand that a much light amp has the same power capability?
Also, I notice that modern amp have less caps, eg my 4311 has lower rated caps than my older Marantz SR 12 S1, which had 90 000 mF worth of caps for seven channels. My even more ancient SR 18 EX had 90 000 for 5 channels. Now that's power.
Happy to know that the light weight is related to some improvement or more more efficient design, but I doubt it.
I will buy the 4520 or AV 8801 as a processor, and the internal amps of the 4520 will be a good bonus to power the rear channels, but I am considering a Mcintosh MC 8207 or something warm for my fronts.
Also, someone I know in the DACs industry, who has access to top end amps, says that D&M are on a costing cutting drive owing to recent events, so neither the 4520 or AV 8801 are their best products and they needed to jack up the costs. The Onkyo, Pioneer and Yamaha amps are better, when you come HT performance in this generation..
I was a little affected, since I am a big D & M fan, having owned 5 of their amps. Nevertheless, I am still looking out for a reason to swop out my 4311 for these two.
+1

But a modest investment in a XPA-3 for LCR will last several AVR generations.

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post #454 of 9671 Old 10-22-2012, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by jszjsz

Hi all 4520 owners!
because the 4520 is going to be available in Germany next week and there's no much info about it in German, I place my questions here in this great US forum.
How exactly is the "Dialog Enhancer" working? As far as I have read the manual it loudens only the frequency band of human voice adjustable in three levels. Because most movies on the cable TV are only Dolby Digital stereo, I've got the following questions:
Is this only working on the center speaker?
Is this only working when the input is at least 5.1 or also when the 4520 extends a stereo signal to 5.1?
What's about "Dialog Enhancer" when only using stereo for output?
Many thanks in advance for all you help!
After reading your post again, I am not sure what you are asking me to test. When you say, "when the 4529 extends a stereo signal to 5.1", do you mean when a stereo input is set to Dolby PLII? I was able to find a cable channel that is broadcasting in Dolby Digital 2.0.0, which I guess is stereo. I can confirm that the dialog enhancer indeed works when the audio mode is set to PLII. Using a SPL, I measure about a 5-6 dB difference in the level of the dialog when switching the dialog enhancer from Off to High. I also confirmed that the dialog enhancer works when the output is Stereo. I don't know how to test whether it is only working on the center channel and not the other speakers--everything I listened to had the dialog in the center channel.

I know this isn't a very scientific test, and it may not even be what you are asking. If you want me to test anything else, let me know.

I can also say that I don't like the sound of dialog enhancer very well. IMO, it upsets the balance between the center channel and the left and right speakers that is set so nicely by a good Audyssey calibration. I know some people have issues with their center channel speakers, but I think other methods of addressing the issues should be taken (e.g. Get the center channel out of the cabinet and onto a free-standing center channel speaker stand) before resorting to dialog enhancer.

One part of my question is, if the Dialog Enhancer is working when you output a stereo signal as stereo (only to the left and right front box and not to the center) [Sorry for my bad English...] Many thanks for your time.
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post #455 of 9671 Old 10-22-2012, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post

+1
But a modest investment in a XPA-3 for LCR will last several AVR generations.

BTW I have a XPA -3, the Denon / XPA3 won't suit bright speakers.... The Emotiva is a brute force amp, great for HT, but not for music..
I now use my Musical Fidelity MF A5.5 stereo amp in HT bypass mode to power my B&W 805s.
Much better.

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post #456 of 9671 Old 10-22-2012, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

BTW I have a XPA -3, the Denon / XPA3 won't suit bright speakers.... The Emotiva is a brute force amp, great for HT, but not for music..
I now use my Musical Fidelity MF A5.5 stereo amp in HT bypass mode to power my B&W 805s.
Much better.

I was planning to pair the 4520 with an XPA-3 for the fronts in an 11 channel setup, but after this comment I'm starting to wonder if I should re-think it.

I tend to use my system for Video Games and HT a lot more than Music though. I guess the question is do people consider the demands of video game audio more akin to HT or to Music?
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post #457 of 9671 Old 10-22-2012, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by papa_laz View Post

I was planning to pair the 4520 with an XPA-3 for the fronts in an 11 channel setup, but after this comment I'm starting to wonder if I should re-think it.
I tend to use my system for Video Games and HT a lot more than Music though. I guess the question is do people consider the demands of video game audio more akin to HT or to Music?

I use the XPA-3 with the 4520. Perhaps my hearing is not as sensitive as Pete's, but it sounds great to me, for both music and HT. I'm not a gamer, so I can't comment on that.

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post #458 of 9671 Old 10-22-2012, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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the suggestion that an amplifier would be good for one type of content vs another is pretty dubious at best. No offense to petetherock, but I would take his comments as just one man's subjective opinion, and not in any way some type of objective consensus. I wouldn't let that dissuade you (papa_laz) from your planned purchases. Even if the amp did introduce some sort of "coloration" in terms of freq response, remember that Audyssey MultEQ is calibrating the entire system to a specific target response curve, which should theoretically nullify any minor freq response deviations.

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post #459 of 9671 Old 10-22-2012, 01:11 PM
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^^^

this....

while there is untold amounts of anecdotal "observations" about differences in amplifiers, those differences disappear when subjected to a rigorous test...

not only that, they'd show very obviously given a frequency sweep...

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post #460 of 9671 Old 10-22-2012, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
this....
while there is untold amounts of anecdotal "observations" about differences in amplifiers, those differences disappear when subjected to a rigorous test...
not only that, they'd show very obviously given a frequency sweep...

yeah my view is generally 'if it sounds good to me that's all I care about' - if a $2 dollar cable sounds as good as a $10,000 one then all the better ! It was just interesting to see that opinion of the xpa-3.

Anyway, sorry to distract the 4520 thread with this side-bar.. Back to the proper discussions!
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post #461 of 9671 Old 10-22-2012, 01:57 PM
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^^^^^^
When I was shopping for my first AVR the Guy (read: Salesman!!) at the local Hi-Fi shop told me Onkyos are made for film, while Denons are meant for music. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Oooooh yeeaaah! smile.gif

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post #462 of 9671 Old 10-22-2012, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Tenkan View Post

Since I've paid for mine, I guess I'm an actual owner. The unit is supposed to be at my place on Wednesday.

I'm in the same boat. Got a little frustrated because I paid Oct 2nd and I won't get it till end of this week. But I got a discount so I shouldn't complain too much.
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post #463 of 9671 Old 10-22-2012, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by danielo View Post

More alu, in the bottom plate and maybe the front and side plates. The 4520 looks to have less than 1mm, the 5308 3mm and the front is way thinker. The whole buildup is done at a higher level and that probably accounts for 50% of the weight difference i bet. This is even more done for the avp that has no amps and is about the same weight as the 5308. The amp (poa) case accounts for about 60lbs/30kg of its 137lbs weight i heard (i always leave the parts in when i move my poa smile.gif ).


Daniel.

some of the difference in cost is likely where its made as well

I assume the 5308 is made in Japan and the new 4520 made in Malaysia( or similar place)...that in itself could mean a few hundred dollars

I agree with on what probably accounts for the weight difference...5308 was built to flagship receiver standards and priced accordingly

Denon is the only manufacture that still builds what I call a true flagship receiver

All the major brands used to have one.....but not any more


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I assume the 5308 is made in Japan and the new 4520 made in Malaysia( or similar place)....

???

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post #465 of 9671 Old 10-22-2012, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

^^^^^^
When I was shopping for my first AVR the Guy (read: Salesman!!) at the local Hi-Fi shop told me Onkyos are made for film, while Denons are meant for music. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Oooooh yeeaaah! smile.gif

 

I wonder how many customers then bought one of each for such purposes,  marketing at its best.

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post #466 of 9671 Old 10-22-2012, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by papa_laz View Post

I was planning to pair the 4520 with an XPA-3 for the fronts in an 11 channel setup, but after this comment I'm starting to wonder if I should re-think it.
I tend to use my system for Video Games and HT a lot more than Music though. I guess the question is do people consider the demands of video game audio more akin to HT or to Music?
Whenever cables, amps etc are brought up in avs, it tends to stir up many differing opinions, so ymmv. As you can see there are many who don't subscribe to what I believe. So do audition and then decide. But for video games there's no real issues. IMO in my usage of the emotiva amps, the short is, great stuff for most mid range neutral speakers but if you have a generally bright system, try something else.
Otherwise they are pretty decent vfm.

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post #467 of 9671 Old 10-22-2012, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post


I assume the 5308 is made in Japan and the new 4520 made in Malaysia( or similar place).......
Denon is the only manufacture that still builds what I call a true flagship receiver
You know what they say about assuming.
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Yes, it was made in Japan. You're welcome.

I think you are wrong if you are saying that the AVR-4520 is a "flagship" model. I hope they come out with something more like the AVP/POA, though really the 48xx/45xx is as high as I can justify right now.

Though the feature i want to play with is the ".2" as that is a hobby unto itself.

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post #468 of 9671 Old 10-22-2012, 05:35 PM
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You know what they say about assuming.
I think you are wrong if you are saying that the AVR-4520 is a "flagship" model. I hope they come out with something more like the AVP/POA, though really the 48xx/45xx is as high as I can justify right now.
Though the feature i want to play with is the ".2" as that is a hobby unto itself.

The AVR-4520CI is the "flagship" of the "IN-Command" receiver line up.

Got this from the Denon web site.
Quote:
Distinguished by its impressive stature and comprehensive features, the Denon IN-Command AVR-4520CI A/V Receiver is a centerpiece addition to any home theater system and the flagship model in Denon's line of IN-Command A/V Receivers.
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post #469 of 9671 Old 10-22-2012, 05:42 PM
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^^^

marketing prose does not make it so... wink.gif

the "flagships" have sailed... the are economically not feasible, and most (if not all) the technology that set them apart has trickled down into even the most modest of avr's...

imo, there's a huge difference between a "built to a price point" unit (which the 4xxx) are, and an (essentially) "cost no object" flagship...

that being said, they really won't be missed... as alluded to, they are rather pointless today... and that comes from someone who has owned a few "real flagships"... i wouldn't trade my a100 for my old susano, for example...

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post #470 of 9671 Old 10-22-2012, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by IwantmyTHX View Post

You know what they say about assuming.
I think you are wrong if you are saying that the AVR-4520 is a "flagship" model. I hope they come out with something more like the AVP/POA, though really the 48xx/45xx is as high as I can justify right now.
Though the feature i want to play with is the ".2" as that is a hobby unto itself.

I didn't know where the 4520 was made

I said that to state that if it were it could mean savings to the pricing....some think its make a difference where its made...other say WGAF

opinions vary..lol


Not sure if you thought I was stating that I thought the 4520 was a flagship receiver

I dont


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post #471 of 9671 Old 10-22-2012, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
marketing prose does not make it so... wink.gif
the "flagships" have sailed... the are economically not feasible, and most (if not all) the technology that set them apart has trickled down into even the most modest of avr's...
imo, there's a huge difference between a "built to a price point" unit (which the 4xxx) are, and an (essentially) "cost no object" flagship...
that being said, they really won't be missed... as alluded to, they are rather pointless today... and that comes from someone who has owned a few "real flagships"... i wouldn't trade my a100 for my old susano, for example...

I would disagree with you about them being missed....some classic pieces there with amazing build quality

But I would agree with your comment about economic feasibility

They are not "not for profit" organizations

A slow selling expensive to produce unit is probably not in their best economic interest


Besides that...as a person who has used separates in my main theater area for many years...I somewhat dont understand why someone spends $5000 on a flagship receiver when they are better served..IMO to go with separates. Even if you spent a bit more with an amp/preamp set up it is infinitely more flexible

On another note..a local high end shop in Columbus Ohio who is a Denon dealer told me that they have stocked the AVP and its associated amp and could not sell them

He told me that buyers at that price point want Anthem, Krell etc.

go figure


Warren..

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Onkyo 5508 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp Atlantic technology System 350 THX Ultra speakers
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Pioneer SC37 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Yamaha A2010 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
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post #472 of 9671 Old 10-22-2012, 06:16 PM
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^^^

well, the "build quality" of my first pc (an ibm pc at) was amazing too, but i wouldn't want to try to use one today...

same for my first sony bdp-1...

etc.

also, the "build quality" of my current unit doesn't suck... it shows no signs of falling apart, and since i don't plan on using it as a boat anchor anytime soon, weight (which too many incorrectly see as "build quality") isn't relevant... i DO have an old denon 5800 kicking around that would make a fine anchor though... tongue.gif

had separates... been there, done that... given you generally pay significantly more for a pre-pro with the same features as an avr, i don't see the "value" there... not really sure why they are "infinitely more flexible" either...

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post #473 of 9671 Old 10-22-2012, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
well, the "build quality" of my first pc (an ibm pc at) was amazing too, but i wouldn't want to try to use one today...
same for my first sony bdp-1...
etc.
also, the "build quality" of my current unit doesn't suck... it shows no signs of falling apart, and since i don't plan on using it as a boat anchor anytime soon, weight (which too many incorrectly see as "build quality") isn't relevant... i DO have an old denon 5800 kicking around that would make a fine anchor though... tongue.gif
had separates... been there, done that... given you generally pay significantly more for a pre-pro with the same features as an avr, i don't see the "value" there... not really sure why they are "infinitely more flexible" either...

does that mean that your first PC performs in much the same fashion as the one you have today?

I am not sure what your point was there in that apples and oranges comparison

I have an old Pioneer VSX47 that is the most musical receiver I have heard...impeccable build quality and the ability to drive 4ohm speakers to ear spitting levels. The same speakers( Vienna Acoustics) that made a Denon 4310 clip and shut off..... right before I boxed it up and sold it on Ebay

No HDMI on the Pioneer....but just for music and other optical/coax formats..its a great piece..IMO

as for paying more for separates?..not really

I have had mix of Rotel , Harman Karon and now a Sherbourn amps for the past 5 years
Four different preamps over the last 12 years

Based on my current Sherbourn amp...5/1500 A with a true 200x5 all channels driven...it was much less expensive for me to switch out preamps as technology changed than try to find a receiver with the kind of power reserves I like

Well..if one even exists today...is their a receiver with 200x5 all channels driven?...heck is there even one that will do 100x5 ( all channels driven) these days?


I paid less for all three preamps( individually) than the cost of the 4520. In fact I paid just a little more for the latest preamp. an .Onkyo 5508 than the closeout 4311 models are going for now

Generally speaking I have never seen a case where the units dont get heavier as you go up a manufacturers product line

But...like you say this could mean nothing

I guess the general "consensus" is that a higher end unit with amplifier would have a better and more robust power supply contributing to a higher weight

But I dont work for any of the manufacturers and clearly cant call that with 100% certainty

I do know that according to Sherboun the reason my amp weighs 80lbs is because it has 5 individual power supplies and individual transformers for each of its 5 channels

does that do anything other than add weight and expense?

I dont know

But it was a moot point as the amp was affordable and I liked its power and sound vs the Rotel and B&K Reference units I was cross shopping at the time


Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Onkyo 5508 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp Atlantic technology System 350 THX Ultra speakers
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Pioneer SC37 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Yamaha A2010 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 Onkyo 5009/906 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
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post #474 of 9671 Old 10-22-2012, 09:56 PM
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as for paying more for separates?..not really
I have had mix of Rotel , Harman Karon and now a Sherbourn amps for the past 5 years
Four different preamps over the last 12 years
Based on my current Sherbourn amp...5/1500 A with a true 200x5 all channels driven...it was much less expensive for me to switch out preamps as technology changed than try to find a receiver with the kind of power reserves I like Warren

That's the theory but finding a feature-current, good quality, reliable preamp at moderate cost is easier said than done. Using a
A100/4311/4520 in preamp mode fits the bill even though they are receivers...

@ccotenj- I still have my old IBM AT clone sitting up in the attic. $1500. at the time (mid 1980's), which was quite a bargain even then. 40 Mb HDD, memory in Kb's! Essentially it was a fancy typewriter.

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post #475 of 9671 Old 10-23-2012, 01:26 AM
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Has anybody had a chance to compare the 4530 to a Denon AVR 3808? If so, I'd be greatful if you'd share your thoughts.

Cheers
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post #476 of 9671 Old 10-23-2012, 03:24 AM
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Pandora Issue

There are a number of Denon AVR-XX12 and AVR-XX13 owners that have posted about issues using Pandora recently to include the one below. Can any of you 4520CI Owners who use Pandora confirm whether you're also experiencing issues as well? Thanks.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1409431/the-official-denon-avr-xx13-model-owners-thread-faq/2600_100#post_22516121

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post #477 of 9671 Old 10-23-2012, 06:32 AM
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One part of my question is, if the Dialog Enhancer is working when you output a stereo signal as stereo (only to the left and right front box and not to the center) [Sorry for my bad English...] Many thanks for your time.

 

OK, here are the measurements for Dialog Enhancer.  The typical male and female voices fall into the range of approximately 100-1,000 Hz, as per this chart:

 

 

Using REW, I measured 100-5,000 Hz to get a good idea of what is going on.  I am using a mono signal going to both inputs, with the AVR set to Stereo mode.  Here are the results (1/6 smoothing):

 

 

At 1 kHz, the boost from off to low to medium to high is approximately 2dB per step.  (The big dip at ~2 kHz is the Audyssey mid-range compensation curve).  So, as it seems, MC affects all frequencies above 100 Hz, and doesn't stop at 1 kHz, the upper limit of the female voice.  Whether this is desirable or not is up to the listener to judge.

 

As I noted in a previous post, the dialog from my center speaker has always been very intelligible, so invoking Dialog Enhancer simply makes it sound louder and, IMO, upsets that balance with the other speakers.  YMMV.


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post #478 of 9671 Old 10-23-2012, 07:21 AM
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Thanks AJ. So then it would seem the results of the "Dialog Enhancer" setting are no different than the "Dialogue Level" setting on the XX13 models, all be it with discrete settings.

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post #479 of 9671 Old 10-23-2012, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I wouldn't say it's "no different", there does appear to be some selective boosting of specific frequencies vs. others. For example, the setting doesn't seem to be doing anything at 100Hz. So it's not just a simple "global" level control for the center channel. Plus, note that he's not even using the center channel, he's in STEREO mode.

AJ - Are you measuring the pre-out or the in-room response?

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post #480 of 9671 Old 10-23-2012, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I wouldn't say it's "no different", there does appear to be some selective boosting of specific frequencies vs. others. For example, the setting doesn't seem to be doing anything at 100Hz. So it's not just a simple "global" level control for the center channel. Plus, note that he's not even using the center channel, he's in STEREO mode.
AJ - Are you measuring the pre-out or the in-room response?

In room response.  And the OP asked for a stereo measurement.  I can take a pre-out measurement, and measure the center channel as well if that would be useful.


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