The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 169 - AVS Forum
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post #5041 of 8741 Old 07-06-2013, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

What controls would you be looking for?  Your display should have the controls to tweak PQ, if that is what you mean.
Sadly, my display doesn't.

I would like to see a "DETAIL ENHANCEMENT" setting (similar to what the Oppo 83 has).

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post #5042 of 8741 Old 07-06-2013, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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There are picture settings controls (separate fr the scaler settings) which include an "enhancer" setting along with controls for brightness contrast etc. These settings are memorized separately by input.

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post #5043 of 8741 Old 07-06-2013, 02:39 PM
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I bought the X4000 and now think I want to try the 4250ci or 4311ci, x4000 works well for movies, wanted a bit more emotion from 2 channel music, I only use 5.1 so the 9.2 is sort of overkill, mainly interested in the better DACs etc, unless anyone has any other ideas. The 4250ci lost some 2 channel features, but the DACs are different, not sure which one I would enjoy more. The dealer I bought the x4000 from will take a 20% restocking fee, not great, better to ask about returns before purchase. Thx
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post #5044 of 8741 Old 07-06-2013, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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One of the lesser known upgrades of the 4520 is extra emotion. wink.giftongue.gif
E
20% restocking fee is pretty brutal. Considering you are only running 5.1 I would probably invest in other areas rather then dumping more $$ into the receiver. You already have XT32 and essentially top of the line feature set... I would look into room treatments, subwoofer upgrades, etc. first. Or the FREE option of trying to optimize what you have. Tell us about your 2ch experience... Speakers, sub, what settings you are using, etc.

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post #5045 of 8741 Old 07-06-2013, 03:17 PM
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Did you have more "emotion" from a prior receiver with the same speakers? Are you comparing the X4000 to something you owner prior?
If not and you are just not really satisfied with the current sound, you would most likely get the biggest improvement to your system by purchasing higher quality speakers as speakers give far more bang-for-the-buck returns than electronics normally do. Would help if you specified the complete system you are working with.

Just a caution, you probably will not be able to hear any audible differences in changing the receiver unless you are operating at the limits of the built in amplifiers. Yes the 4520 is built to a higher standard, has 150 watt rated amps, is 4 ohm rated. If your are running efficient speakers and the X4000 is just coasting along, I suspect you will find very minimal differences. If you are amp limited, you could add an external amp to the X4000 for the front 2-3 channels and make up most of the potential audio improvements of going with the 4520.
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post #5046 of 8741 Old 07-06-2013, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

There are picture settings controls (separate fr the scaler settings) which include an "enhancer" setting along with controls for brightness contrast etc..
According to the manual:
The Enhancer Control will "Emphasize picture contours."

This sounds like an "Edge Enhancement" Control to me, not a Detail Enhancer.
The 2 are not one and the same thing.

Oh well, so it goes.
Still, it's odd...when you consider the power and sophistication of the video processor that Denon didn't enable the routines to tweak it.
Especially sense this AVR is their current Flagship.

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post #5047 of 8741 Old 07-06-2013, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

One of the lesser known upgrades of the 4520 is extra emotion. wink.giftongue.gif
E
20% restocking fee is pretty brutal. Considering you are only running 5.1 I would probably invest in other areas rather then dumping more $$ into the receiver. You already have XT32 and essentially top of the line feature set... I would look into room treatments, subwoofer upgrades, etc. first. Or the FREE option of trying to optimize what you have. Tell us about your 2ch experience... Speakers, sub, what settings you are using, etc.

This week I changed my complete system, I bought Usher S520 speakers. when I heard them in a 2-chanel setup they were amazing. very musical and a lot of depth.

I have a friend with a 5308 and I know the higher-end Denon stuff can sound amazing, yes a lot of it has to do with setup, I was just looking over the manual for the X4000 and pretty confusing. I think I should try and figure out a few things, and also take this to the X4000 thread.

I have a small HSU sub, and am in an apartment at the moment, so sometime like to listen to music with just the monitors and no sub late at night. they sound nice in my room in direct mode, was hoping for a little more magic tho. thanks again
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post #5048 of 8741 Old 07-06-2013, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterK View Post

Did you have more "emotion" from a prior receiver with the same speakers? Are you comparing the X4000 to something you owner prior?
If not and you are just not really satisfied with the current sound, you would most likely get the biggest improvement to your system by purchasing higher quality speakers as speakers give far more bang-for-the-buck returns than electronics normally do. Would help if you specified the complete system you are working with.

Just a caution, you probably will not be able to hear any audible differences in changing the receiver unless you are operating at the limits of the built in amplifiers. Yes the 4520 is built to a higher standard, has 150 watt rated amps, is 4 ohm rated. If your are running efficient speakers and the X4000 is just coasting along, I suspect you will find very minimal differences. If you are amp limited, you could add an external amp to the X4000 for the front 2-3 channels and make up most of the potential audio improvements of going with the 4520.

changed everything all at once, my new Usher speakers are amazing with the right electronics. I really don't need more power or channels, I wonder if there is a way to have multiple Audyssey profiles, one for 2 channel listening with out the sub, one for movies? Will play with it a bit and see what I can figure out, the manual is sort of all over the place, link here, link there.. :-) thanks!
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post #5049 of 8741 Old 07-07-2013, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by mingus View Post

I bought the X4000 and now think I want to try the 4250ci or 4311ci, x4000 works well for movies, wanted a bit more emotion from 2 channel music, I only use 5.1 so the 9.2 is sort of overkill, mainly interested in the better DACs etc, unless anyone has any other ideas. The 4250ci lost some 2 channel features, but the DACs are different, not sure which one I would enjoy more. The dealer I bought the x4000 from will take a 20% restocking fee, not great, better to ask about returns before purchase. Thx

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

One of the lesser known upgrades of the 4520 is extra emotion. wink.giftongue.gif
E
20% restocking fee is pretty brutal. Considering you are only running 5.1 I would probably invest in other areas rather then dumping more $$ into the receiver. You already have XT32 and essentially top of the line feature set... I would look into room treatments, subwoofer upgrades, etc. first. Or the FREE option of trying to optimize what you have. Tell us about your 2ch experience... Speakers, sub, what settings you are using, etc.

 

I agree with batpig FWIW. There are very few, if any, real differences between the contribution modern electronics make as compared with the vast differences that speakers, speaker placement, room treatments etc will make.  Swapping out a perfectly good unit such as the X4000 for 4250 will not bring the slightest audible benefit - but using top quality speakers, positioning them properly according to the laws of acoustic science and using room treatments to counteract modes and reflections will bring VAST audible benefits. Add Audyssey XT32 on top, as the icing on the cake to deal with any remaining issues and the result will be astonishing. 

 

WRT to DACs, these days they are a commodity item and cost a few dollars for units whose distortion levels are way below the threshold of human audibility. Changing to so-called "better" DACs will not make the slightest difference if any differences between the DACs cannot be heard by human hearing. I would suggest not relying on subjective impressions but instead looking up the numerous scientific blind tests that have been conducted which prove conclusively that modern electronics, if not broken and working within spec, are largely irrelevant to the pursuit of good sound.  Go with speakers, subs, placement and treatments if you really want to hear a difference...

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post #5050 of 8741 Old 07-07-2013, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
I bought the X4000 and now think I want to try the 4250ci or 4311ci, x4000 works well for movies, wanted a bit more emotion from 2 channel music, I only use 5.1 so the 9.2 is sort of overkill, mainly interested in the better DACs etc, unless anyone has any other ideas. The 4250ci lost some 2 channel features, but the DACs are different, not sure which one I would enjoy more. The dealer I bought the x4000 from will take a 20% restocking fee, not great, better to ask about returns before purchase. Thx

Next time buy from AV Science ! smile.gif
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post #5051 of 8741 Old 07-07-2013, 05:56 PM
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I've got a question on the 4520. Does anyone feel like the 4 port ethernet is a waste..... Not being gigabite blows me away. I know I can still stick in a faster hub, and probably will, unless youguys convince me otherwise.
I also want to mention that, theres is one incredable review on youtube by avlanduk. WOW...
Concidering im upgrading from my old sony Str dh810.
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post #5052 of 8741 Old 07-07-2013, 06:51 PM
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post #5053 of 8741 Old 07-07-2013, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harrybnbad View Post

I've got a question on the 4520. Does anyone feel like the 4 port ethernet is a waste..... Not being gigabite blows me away. I know I can still stick in a faster hub, and probably will, unless youguys convince me otherwise.
I also want to mention that, theres is one incredable review on youtube by avlanduk. WOW...
Concidering im upgrading from my old sony Str dh810.

What do you have in your AV rack that needs a faster hub?

I can't think of anything that can stream that would need to be faster at this point in time....
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post #5054 of 8741 Old 07-07-2013, 11:32 PM
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I have been told the 4520ci may not be enough power to get best sound out of my speakers since it reduces wpc when on 7 channel setup. Is this true?
I have not purchased 4520 yet but was planning to. Will be using with def tech 8080 fronts, SR 8040 sides, mythos gem xl rears, And def tech 8080 center. Was told the 350 to 400 watt (cant remember exact right now) rating for 8080 fronts would require more wpc for the best sound than 4520 could give. Is this true? Plan to use the powered subs in the fronts as well as the one in the center speaker with the subwoofer outputs ( the fronts will be y' Ed together). The room is about 20 by 35 with tv and fronts about 14 ft away from sitting area. Main use will be for movies on Samsung f8000 75 inch not yet delivered , but will still listen to music some.

Is there a definitive answer to what the average wpc would be with a 7.2 setup for the 4520ci?
If this receiver really is not enough power for the setup to sound it's best is there a good option what to get other than going with separate Pre-amp? Don't have space for that.
Sorry so many questions, a bit new to this, but looking forward to good advice.
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post #5055 of 8741 Old 07-08-2013, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by mikeygt350 View Post

I have been told the 4520ci may not be enough power to get best sound out of my speakers since it reduces wpc when on 7 channel setup. Is this true?
I have not purchased 4520 yet but was planning to. Will be using with def tech 8080 fronts, SR 8040 sides, mythos gem xl rears, And def tech 8080 center. Was told the 350 to 400 watt (cant remember exact right now) rating for 8080 fronts would require more wpc for the best sound than 4520 could give. Is this true? Plan to use the powered subs in the fronts as well as the one in the center speaker with the subwoofer outputs ( the fronts will be y' Ed together). The room is about 20 by 35 with tv and fronts about 14 ft away from sitting area. Main use will be for movies on Samsung f8000 75 inch not yet delivered , but will still listen to music some.

Is there a definitive answer to what the average wpc would be with a 7.2 setup for the 4520ci?
If this receiver really is not enough power for the setup to sound it's best is there a good option what to get other than going with separate Pre-amp? Don't have space for that.
Sorry so many questions, a bit new to this, but looking forward to good advice.
You using powered subwoofers already, you don't need a lot of power to drive 8080's. 4520 will be fine.

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post #5056 of 8741 Old 07-08-2013, 06:50 AM
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The 4520 is one of the highest powered receivers on the market. Virtually all receivers are now rated at 2 channels driven and they drop if powering 7 channels. I have not read a single post of anyone saying they don't have enough available power from the 4520. If you truly need more, just add a compact 2-300 watt 2-3 channel amp later. Your concern would be applicable with every receiver on the market. Powered subs greatly reduce the demands on the internal amp as JohnAV says. You should have no problems.
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post #5057 of 8741 Old 07-08-2013, 08:39 AM
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Does the denon 4520 accept regular spade lugs?
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post #5058 of 8741 Old 07-08-2013, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeygt350 View Post

I have been told the 4520ci may not be enough power to get best sound out of my speakers since it reduces wpc when on 7 channel setup. Is this true?
I have not purchased 4520 yet but was planning to. Will be using with def tech 8080 fronts, SR 8040 sides, mythos gem xl rears, And def tech 8080 center. Was told the 350 to 400 watt (cant remember exact right now) rating for 8080 fronts would require more wpc for the best sound than 4520 could give. Is this true? Plan to use the powered subs in the fronts as well as the one in the center speaker with the subwoofer outputs ( the fronts will be y' Ed together). The room is about 20 by 35 with tv and fronts about 14 ft away from sitting area. Main use will be for movies on Samsung f8000 75 inch not yet delivered , but will still listen to music some.

Is there a definitive answer to what the average wpc would be with a 7.2 setup for the 4520ci?
If this receiver really is not enough power for the setup to sound it's best is there a good option what to get other than going with separate Pre-amp? Don't have space for that.
Sorry so many questions, a bit new to this, but looking forward to good advice.

 

As others have told you, the 4520 will have more than enough power. The Def Tech 8080s are very efficient speakers, delivering 92dB at 1 metre for 1 watt of input. Reference level for movies is 85dB average and 105dB peaks (115db for the LFE channel but that is catered for by your sub anyway). With those speakers just 1 watt will give you more than average movie reference level (!) and 16 watts will give you 104dB, which is very loud. Admittedly this is at 1m distance so you will require more at the normal seating position, but the chances of you really needing more than 60-70 watts are very low indeed. So whoever told you the 4520 isn't going to be powerful enough is giving you bad information.

 

You would also not find it easy to find an AVR that had more power than the 4520 and if you do not have space for a prepro/amp combination, then an AVR is your sole option.  Go with the 4520 - you will be delighted.

 

EDIT: perhaps I ought to say that I have no dog in this fight - I am an Onkyo owner myself.

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post #5059 of 8741 Old 07-08-2013, 09:19 AM
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I have been told the 4520ci may not be enough power to get best sound out of my speakers since it reduces wpc when on 7 channel setup. Is this true?
I have not purchased 4520 yet but was planning to. Will be using with def tech 8080 fronts, SR 8040 sides, mythos gem xl rears, And def tech 8080 center. Was told the 350 to 400 watt (cant remember exact right now) rating for 8080 fronts would require more wpc for the best sound than 4520 could give. Is this true? Plan to use the powered subs in the fronts as well as the one in the center speaker with the subwoofer outputs ( the fronts will be y' Ed together). The room is about 20 by 35 with tv and fronts about 14 ft away from sitting area. Main use will be for movies on Samsung f8000 75 inch not yet delivered , but will still listen to music some.

If you lived anywhere near me, I'd have you come over and watch an action or sci fi movie. My 4520 drives my 4 ohm Martin Logan speakers without any problem and can produce clean sound at volumn levels that not only will cause hearing loss, it will make my wife punch me until I turn the volumn level down. I'm running 9 speakers off the 4520, and the front L / R speakers off an external amp. eek.gif

My " loud movie " loving friends say the new Denon 4520 setup in our theater totally kicks a$$ ! smile.gif

This review pretty much says the same thing -
Quote:
Summing It Up

In conclusion, I am thoroughly impressed with this unit. It has about all the features you could ask for in a receiver/processor and ample power to accommodate most any speaker system. I initially intended on reviewing it and then selling it, but instead I have already sold my Onkyo 5508, XPA-3 amp and XPA-1 monoblocks. I keep thinking to myself that the 4520 seems to be a little on the pricey side, but if you consider what any other processor with the same features would cost you and then add the expense of amplification, the 4520 price actually sounds like a bargain. I think the most surprising part of my experience with the 4520 has been its ability to drive my MartinLogan speakers effortlessly. I had almost given up on ever trying receiver power because I have always read and heard that the Prodigy’s pretty much needed at least 300 watts of good clean power to perform their best. I will have to disagree with the naysayers, as I find it hard to get any better than what it is right now with the 4520 the only power amp source in my system. Excellent job Denon!


Read more: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/av-receivers-preamps-processors-amplifier-reviews/65664-denon-avr-4520ci-receiver-review.html#ixzz2YTZnbH44

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post #5060 of 8741 Old 07-08-2013, 10:42 AM
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Are you saying that the 4520CI "in general" due to XT32 is providing you with the best center channel clarity that you have ever had or did you recently invoke some of the features such as dialog enhancement or some other sort of tweak?


...Glenn

I have an update for you Glenn. I've had some time to play around with different settings. First off, it took me a little while to discover that the 4520 ( with the firmware on mine anyway ) defaults to Dynamic Volumn and Dynamic EQ being on after running Audyssey ( as found in the Home Theater Shack review linked to in my previous post ). I've tried a bunch of different movies and setting combinations. My conclusion - while the Audyssey XT32 does make an improvement in the center channel over my previous version, if you are having center channel issues, try Dynamic Volumn ( I do not like Dynamic EQ - I dislike what it does to the sound in my theater ). I also have to reverse what I said about dialog enhancement. When used on the low setting with Dynamic Vol., it helps too. I've turned it on and off and it does not seem to add anything negative to dialog ( in my theater anyway ). I have 14 feet of seating width, 12 feet from the center channel speaker ( above a 121" diagonal screen ). Now even difficult to understand / poorly mixed movies have clear dialog. Really helps with some movies ( like trying to decipher the strange dialect in Cloud Atlas after a few glasses of wine ) !! smile.gif My poor 57 year old ears need good center channel sound without turning the sound levels up - since my wife doesn't like it too loud. I've finally found a combination with the 4520 that works perfect in my theater.

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post #5061 of 8741 Old 07-08-2013, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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My conclusion - while the Audyssey XT32 does make an improvement in the center channel over my previous version, if you are having center channel issues, try Dynamic Volumn ( I do not like Dynamic EQ - I dislike what it does to the sound in my theater ).

Hate to break it to you Craig, but if you have Dynamic Volume on then you ALSO have Dynamic EQ on wink.gif Dynamic Volume layers on top of Dyn EQ.

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post #5062 of 8741 Old 07-08-2013, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Craig,


Are you saying that the 4520CI "in general" due to XT32 is providing you with the best center channel clarity that you have ever had or did you recently invoke some of the features such as dialog enhancement or some other sort of tweak?


...Glenn

I have an update for you Glenn. I've had some time to play around with different settings. First off, it took me a little while to discover that the 4520 ( with the firmware on mine anyway ) defaults to Dynamic Volumn and Dynamic EQ being on after running Audyssey ( as found in the Home Theater Shack review linked to in my previous post ). I've tried a bunch of different movies and setting combinations. My conclusion - while the Audyssey XT32 does make an improvement in the center channel over my previous version, if you are having center channel issues, try Dynamic Volumn ( I do not like Dynamic EQ - I dislike what it does to the sound in my theater ). I also have to reverse what I said about dialog enhancement. When used on the low setting with Dynamic Vol., it helps too. I've turned it on and off and it does not seem to add anything negative to dialog ( in my theater anyway ). I have 14 feet of seating width, 12 feet from the center channel speaker ( above a 121" diagonal screen ). Now even difficult to understand / poorly mixed movies have clear dialog. Really helps with some movies ( like trying to decipher the strange dialect in Cloud Atlas after a few glasses of wine ) !! smile.gif My poor 57 year old ears need good center channel sound without turning the sound levels up - since my wife doesn't like it too loud. I've finally found a combination with the 4520 that works perfect in my theater.

 

Batpig beat me to it. You have DEQ enabled whether you believe you have or not eek.gif  

 

Difficulty in hearing centre channel dialogue with clarity is usually a room-induced issue - mainly bad reflections. Do you have your HT treated acoustically? Is there anything between the MLP and the centre speaker that could cause a nasty reflection which can muddy dialogue?  Eg, a coffee table?  My experience is that almost all movies are mixed with very clear dialogue (as one would expect given its importance to a movie). I can’t remember the last time I came across a movie with poor dialogue intelligibility TBH (and I watch 350-450 movies a year). 

 

I can't see from your photos if the room is treated or not. It doesn't look as if it is from this photo, but the treatments could be well concealed.

 

 

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post #5063 of 8741 Old 07-08-2013, 11:32 AM
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I do not like Dynamic EQ - I dislike what it does to the sound in my theater.

Have you played with DynEQ reference level offset?
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@Glenn,

 

Is that your room in the picture in Keith's post above?  If yes, is that your center channel speaker mounted high on the front wall?  I would certainly experiment with center channel placement in an effort to improve dialog intelligibility.  There are some nice center channel speaker stands that would allow the speaker to be lower, and further away from the wall.  Just a suggestion, and easy to experiment without spending any money.

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@Glenn,

 

Is that your room in the picture in Keith's post above?  If yes, is that your center channel speaker mounted high on the front wall?  I would certainly experiment with center channel placement in an effort to improve dialog intelligibility.  There are some nice center channel speaker stands that would allow the speaker to be lower, and further away from the wall.  Just a suggestion, and easy to experiment without spending any money.

The photo is from the link in Glenn's sig, so I am assuming it is his HT (but you know what happens when you assume...).

 

I concur. IME poor dialogue intelligibility is invariably a function of the room or, as you add, speaker placement, or both of course. Fiddling with tone controls, centre trims, dialogue 'enhancers' etc can often help, but nothing ever beats finding the underlying issue and fixing it IMO.

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post #5066 of 8741 Old 07-08-2013, 04:04 PM
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I assume you are right ( I'm too busy today to crank up the projector ) - but can't Dynamic EQ be turned on / off by itself with or without Dynamic volumn ?

On : Use Dynamic EQ.
Off : Do not use Dynamic EQ.
Quote:
@Glenn,

Is that your room in the picture in Keith's post above? If yes, is that your center channel speaker mounted high on the front wall? I would certainly experiment with center channel placement in an effort to improve dialog intelligibility. There are some nice center channel speaker stands that would allow the speaker to be lower, and further away from the wall. Just a suggestion, and easy to experiment without spending any money.

That's my room and an old photo before acoustic panels were added. I've tried the speaker lower, but with a 121" diagonal screen, it's right on the floor, which isn't much better. Anyway, my problems seem to be solved, and no, nobody is going to take the coffee table away - where the Hell would we put the wine glasses ??

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post #5067 of 8741 Old 07-08-2013, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

I assume you are right ( I'm too busy today to crank up the projector ) - but can't Dynamic EQ be turned on / off by itself with or without Dynamic volumn ?

On : Use Dynamic EQ.
Off : Do not use Dynamic EQ.

 

You can use DEQ without DVol but not DVol without DEQ.

 

Quote:
Quote:
@Glenn,

Is that your room in the picture in Keith's post above? If yes, is that your center channel speaker mounted high on the front wall? I would certainly experiment with center channel placement in an effort to improve dialog intelligibility. There are some nice center channel speaker stands that would allow the speaker to be lower, and further away from the wall. Just a suggestion, and easy to experiment without spending any money.

That's my room and an old photo before acoustic panels were added. I've tried the speaker lower, but with a 121" diagonal screen, it's right on the floor, which isn't much better. Anyway, my problems seem to be solved, and no, nobody is going to take the coffee table away - where the Hell would we put the wine glasses ??
 

 

Fair enough. If you are happy with the present solution then there is no more to be said. There's a good chance the coffee table is causing the speech intelligibility problem though.
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post #5068 of 8741 Old 07-08-2013, 04:16 PM
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I concur. IME poor dialogue intelligibility is invariably a function of the room or, as you add, speaker placement, or both of course. Fiddling with tone controls, centre trims, dialogue 'enhancers' etc can often help, but nothing ever beats finding the underlying issue and fixing it IMO.

Unfortunately, there are always compromises ( unless you have $ 20 million for just your theater ). An AT screen with the center behind would be better sound wise. Except then the picture quaility / brightness would be compromised IMO. So we choose our poison and live with it !

It also probably doesn't help that my seating is 14 feet wide but only about 12 feet deep, meaning that one can be closer to the side surround than the center channel.

If we all had just one or two seats in our theater the sound could be perfect for everyone...............

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post #5069 of 8741 Old 07-08-2013, 04:23 PM
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You can use DEQ without DVol but not DVol without DEQ.

Yes - sorry, that is a setting that I do not like ! Thanks.

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post #5070 of 8741 Old 07-08-2013, 04:40 PM
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Hate to break it to you Craig, but if you have Dynamic Volume on then you ALSO have Dynamic EQ on wink.gif Dynamic Volume layers on top of Dyn EQ.

BP, this is what I thought as well. However, on my 4520, I just checked it out. Dynamic Volume can be engaged with DEQ off! This was a surprise to me. Did Denon change something?

Can another 4520 owner confirm this?
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