The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 178 - AVS Forum
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post #5311 of 8886 Old 08-05-2013, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Ok, so I'm trying to finally talk myself off the ledge of avoiding this otherwise fantastic AVR because of the no digital inputs to the zone issue. So if you would please, let me know if I have the following correct:

1. Any HDMI input- even one sending out multi-channel audio- can be down-mixed to stereo and played back to the zones? The caveat is that same input will be played across all of the zones. You cannot send a discreet HDMI input's audio to Z's 2 or 3 and have another playing in the main.

2. If I airplay my phone or ipad to the 4520 with Spotify that can be played back to zones 2 or 3 independently of the main zone. (?) This could seal the deal for me.

thanks in advance for the advisement.


James


1. Correct, engaging the "All Zone Stereo" feature is the only way to play a digital signal to the other zones via the standard stereo audio distribution method. The new X3000/X4000 can finally do this though, any stereo signal (analog or digital 2.0 PCM) can output independently to any other zone. Other than "All Zone Stereo" the 4520 can only send analog or internally tuned sources (tuner/USB/network) to Zone 2/3.

2. Correct, however, note that with Airplay there is an initial "hijack" of the entire receiver that is unavoidable. So, for example, if somebody else is watching a movie in the main zone, and you are in the other room, if you fire up Spotify on the iPad and select the receiver as the Airplay speaker, the main zone will suddenly switch to the Network input and start playing Airplay as well. After this initial "hijack", you can turn on Zone(s) 2/3 and the Airplay signal can flow to other rooms, and you can switch main zone back to another source and from that point on continue using Airplay unimpeded in the other zones. This initial "hijack" hasn't changed even with the newer E/X series models.

Considering your multi-year focus on this given issue, I might recommend continuing to stay patient as it's likely the follow up to the 4520 will incorporate the fancy new zone features of the X4000.

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post #5312 of 8886 Old 08-05-2013, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

As though practicality was the goal? tongue.gif

No, but time and money should prolly be up there, lol. When you start considering the truly marginal gains of doubling amplifier power and speaker cabinets you- or at least I- really start to look at things differently.

To each their own of course.

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post #5313 of 8886 Old 08-05-2013, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

1. Correct, engaging the "All Zone Stereo" feature is the only way to play a digital signal to the other zones via the standard stereo audio distribution method. The new X3000/X4000 can finally do this though, any stereo signal (analog or digital 2.0 PCM) can output independently to any other zone. Other than "All Zone Stereo" the 4520 can only send analog or internally tuned sources (tuner/USB/network) to Zone 2/3.

2. Correct, however, note that with Airplay there is an initial "hijack" of the entire receiver that is unavoidable. So, for example, if somebody else is watching a movie in the main zone, and you are in the other room, if you fire up Spotify on the iPad and select the receiver as the Airplay speaker, the main zone will suddenly switch to the Network input and start playing Airplay as well. After this initial "hijack", you can turn on Zone(s) 2/3 and the Airplay signal can flow to other rooms, and you can switch main zone back to another source and from that point on continue using Airplay unimpeded in the other zones. This initial "hijack" hasn't changed even with the newer E/X series models.

Considering your multi-year focus on this given issue, I might recommend continuing to stay patient as it's likely the follow up to the 4520 will incorporate the fancy new zone features of the X4000.


Yep re the the hack- I can live with that. I'd be all over the 4000 if it offered 11 channel capability. I know the chances are very good that the 4520's replacement will offer the SPDIF option to the zones- if not even discreet HDMI audio, but the price will of course bump up again and if there's legit workarounds with the 4520 I'm really not going to lose any sleep over it...even though I know it may appear that way sometimes. tongue.gif

One real bonus with the HDMI all stereo option for me is that it will likely eliminate the unsolvable lip-sync issues I see with my pocorn hour 400 when it comes to SPDIF down mixing for my outside zone. No amount of adjustment fully remedies it.

thanks for the qualification.

James

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post #5314 of 8886 Old 08-05-2013, 10:17 AM
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My old pioneer receiver had a mode called extended stereo that played mono to all channels. I can't find this on my 4520. Thoughts?
I like all 11 speakers playing mono for general listening, while working, etc. I don't like the way it splits up sounds to rear channels. Though I didn't try it in all the modes yet.
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post #5315 of 8886 Old 08-05-2013, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Nothing like this exists on any Denon that I'm aware. The closest thing is MultiCH Stereo mode.

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post #5316 of 8886 Old 08-05-2013, 11:57 AM
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Don't own a 4520, but how about MONO MOVIE, is that available on this model?

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post #5317 of 8886 Old 08-05-2013, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post

I am a bit confused in understanding sound modes and what I should be setting things to.

I have an 11.2 configuration (with ext 2ch amp) and always use Neo:X for any DTS mode and Audyssey H+W for anything Dolby and cable TV. My 4520 doesn't seem to automatically change the sound parameter. So if I put in a Dolby TrueHD disc, the 4520 stays on Neo:X.

How do I get the 4520 to change to the correct sound modes automatically?

Is there a chart somewhere that says: "Speaker Config **X**" + "Input signal **Y**" = "Sound Mode **Z**"?

Denon receivers memorize surround mode choices by input source (e.g. DVD input vs. the SAT/CBL input) and then, within each input source, by input signal TYPE. In your case, a 5.1 signal, whether it's DTS or Dolby Digital, is the same "type" of signal as far as this auto surround memory is concerned. That's why it stays on Neo:X when it switches from DTS input signal to Dolby Digital, they are the same "type" of signal (digital multichannel surround).

The "types" of signal that get separate memory are generally:

1. Basic stereo signal (analog 2ch or 2.0 PCM digital)
2. Encoded stereo signal (e.g. Dolby Digital 2.0 from your cable box or a stereo track off a DVD)
3. Encoded multich signal (e.g. Dolby Digital 5.1, DTS-MA 5.1, etc)
4. Uncompressed multich signal (multich PCM)

So, there is no way to have it default to a different surround mode for a DD 5.1 signal vs. a DTS 5.1 signal.

That said.......... I now have to ask the obvious question, WHY do you have it do Neo:X for a DTS signal but DSX for a Dolby Digital signal? There is no functional reason why you would change this just because the encode on the Blu-ray uses a different codec. If you take a lossless Blu-ray soundtrack, encode it (using either DTS-MA or Dolby TrueHD), and then decode it in the receiver, the end result is *identical*, you'll end up with the same 5.1 lossless soundtrack. Why would you want to use Neo:X in one case and DSX in the other?

My feeling is, you decide which your favorite type of 11ch upmix is and then use it. If you like Neo:X better than DSX for movies, it should apply whether the Blu-ray has the soundtrack encoded in TrueHD or DTS-MA or uncompressed PCM. There is nothing different about a DTS or Dolby Digital encode that would make one better than the other for DSX vs. Neo:X (other than the very rare exception of certain DTS soundtracks that are pre-mixed for a Neo:X upmix). Now, you might have a preference depending on *type of content* (e.g. a music concert disc vs. a movie) but there is no practical reason why you would want to split your usage of Neo:X vs. DSX based upon the encoder used on the disc to compress the audio.

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post #5318 of 8886 Old 08-05-2013, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanchoPanza View Post

Don't own a 4520, but how about MONO MOVIE, is that available on this model?
yes

When you hold down the movie button on bottom of remote it displays a number of choices, mono movie is one of them.

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post #5319 of 8886 Old 08-05-2013, 02:25 PM
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That said.......... I now have to ask the obvious question, WHY do you have it do Neo:X for a DTS signal but DSX for a Dolby Digital signal? There is no functional reason why you would change this just because the encode on the Blu-ray uses a different codec. If you take a lossless Blu-ray soundtrack, encode it (using either DTS-MA or Dolby TrueHD), and then decode it in the receiver, the end result is *identical*, you'll end up with the same 5.1 lossless soundtrack. Why would you want to use Neo:X in one case and DSX in the other?

My feeling is, you decide which your favorite type of 11ch upmix is and then use it. If you like Neo:X better than DSX for movies, it should apply whether the Blu-ray has the soundtrack encoded in TrueHD or DTS-MA or uncompressed PCM. There is nothing different about a DTS or Dolby Digital encode that would make one better than the other for DSX vs. Neo:X (other than the very rare exception of certain DTS soundtracks that are pre-mixed for a Neo:X upmix). Now, you might have a preference depending on *type of content* (e.g. a music concert disc vs. a movie) but there is no practical reason why you would want to split your usage of Neo:X vs. DSX based upon the encoder used on the disc to compress the audio.

I totally agree. I use NEO:X now for Blu Ray movies and HDTV exclusively - I think it sounds best in my theater, so I never change it. I don't listen to music so that's not an issue. Easy enough to change settings though with the remote.

BTW, if I hear someone else say I'm " not following the directors intent " because I'm using 11.1, and matrixing 5.1 or 7.1 to get 11.1, I'm going to scream. eek.gif I'm sure " the director " intended his movie to be watched on a 20'+ wide screen with a DCI projector like a Barco or Christie ( oh to have enough $ to to be able to honor the " directors intent " in that department - but i'd still be enjoying my 11.1 speaker setup ) ! cool.gif

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post #5320 of 8886 Old 08-05-2013, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanchoPanza View Post

Don't own a 4520, but how about MONO MOVIE, is that available on this model?
yes

When you hold down the movie button on bottom of remote it displays a number of choices, mono movie is one of them.

Just to be clear, in the context of the original question, the MONO MOVIE surround mode does NOT broadcast the same mono signal to all speakers (e.g. the "extended stereo" mode that the OP referred to on his old receiver). It is a surround mode intended for use WITH mono movie soundtracks, not to take a non-mono soundtrack and downmix to mono and then send to all speaker channels.
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post #5321 of 8886 Old 08-05-2013, 02:46 PM
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So, the closest is still, as you said, Multi Channel Stereo.

just 1 more pair of KLIPSCH Classic speakers...
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post #5322 of 8886 Old 08-05-2013, 02:48 PM
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Hello,I only have a 5.2 system I use 50/50 music and movies. I have a large(cubic ft) room with 87dB speakers. Which would be the better setup sound quality-wise; a 4520 or x4000 + emo xpa-5? Also, is the 4520 worth the xtra $ over the 7008?
Thanks.

Indecision may or may not be my problem.
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post #5323 of 8886 Old 08-05-2013, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post

Hello,I only have a 5.2 system I use 50/50 music and movies. I have a large(cubic ft) room with 87dB speakers. Which would be the better setup sound quality-wise; a 4520 or x4000 + emo xpa-5? Also, is the 4520 worth the xtra $ over the 7008?
Thanks.
The 4520, it would work out better then a x4000 with a emotiva amp IMHO. Also a much better unit then a Marantz 7008 in several different ways. I got a great deal on one recently.

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post #5324 of 8886 Old 08-05-2013, 03:20 PM
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Thanks! I think if the price is right, that's what I will end up getting.

Indecision may or may not be my problem.
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post #5325 of 8886 Old 08-05-2013, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Denon receivers memorize surround mode choices by input source (e.g. DVD input vs. the SAT/CBL input) and then, within each input source, by input signal TYPE. In your case, a 5.1 signal, whether it's DTS or Dolby Digital, is the same "type" of signal as far as this auto surround memory is concerned. That's why it stays on Neo:X when it switches from DTS input signal to Dolby Digital, they are the same "type" of signal (digital multichannel surround).

The "types" of signal that get separate memory are generally:

1. Basic stereo signal (analog 2ch or 2.0 PCM digital)
2. Encoded stereo signal (e.g. Dolby Digital 2.0 from your cable box or a stereo track off a DVD)
3. Encoded multich signal (e.g. Dolby Digital 5.1, DTS-MA 5.1, etc)
4. Uncompressed multich signal (multich PCM)

So, there is no way to have it default to a different surround mode for a DD 5.1 signal vs. a DTS 5.1 signal.

I have noticed lately that with the 4520 I have to press the movie button and select a Dolby signal to get the surround
mode to change from basic stereo to DTS or Dolby digital.

The majority of the time the 4520 is in basic stereo for music stations but when I watch a movie a lot of the
time it will stay in stereo till I press the movie button. At first it seemed to "auto decode" better.

Is this normal?
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post #5326 of 8886 Old 08-05-2013, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post

Hello,I only have a 5.2 system I use 50/50 music and movies. I have a large(cubic ft) room with 87dB speakers. Which would be the better setup sound quality-wise; a 4520 or x4000 + emo xpa-5? Also, is the 4520 worth the xtra $ over the 7008?
Thanks.
I own a 4520, but if you are really keen on music, you can consider the X4000, plus a Marantz Stereo amp with HT input, such as the PM 8003.
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post #5327 of 8886 Old 08-05-2013, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwinroad View Post

I have noticed lately that with the 4520 I have to press the movie button and select a Dolby signal to get the surround
mode to change from basic stereo to DTS or Dolby digital.

The majority of the time the 4520 is in basic stereo for music stations but when I watch a movie a lot of the
time it will stay in stereo till I press the movie button. At first it seemed to "auto decode" better.

Is this normal?
I usually switch from movie to music or direct, where it seems the 4520 remembers your last setting with each mode.

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post #5328 of 8886 Old 08-05-2013, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post

Hello,I only have a 5.2 system I use 50/50 music and movies. I have a large(cubic ft) room with 87dB speakers. Which would be the better setup sound quality-wise; a 4520 or x4000 + emo xpa-5? Also, is the 4520 worth the xtra $ over the 7008?
Thanks.


Will you be running a sub or subs?  What is the distance of the seats to the front speakers?  What is the ohmage of the front speakers? 


Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #5329 of 8886 Old 08-06-2013, 12:07 PM
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If I airplay my phone or ipad to the 4520 with Spotify that can be played back to zones 2 or 3 independently of the main zone. (?) This could seal the deal for me


That is soooo yesterday. Just buy a Sonus system -- then all is well
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post #5330 of 8886 Old 08-06-2013, 01:37 PM
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Speaking of Airplay, just make sure you have the volume quite low when you use your AVR-4520CI for Airplay playback for the first time. Buried on page 82 of the owners manual is this:
Quote:
In playback using the AirPlay function, the sound is output at the
iPhone, iPod touch, iPad or iTunes volume setting level.
You should turn down the iPhone, iPod touch, iPad or iTunes volume
prior to playback and then adjust it to a suitable level.

As I found out you need very little volume on the Denon when using iTunes for example. biggrin.gif

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post #5331 of 8886 Old 08-06-2013, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post


Will you be running a sub or subs?  What is the distance of the seats to the front speakers?  What is the ohmage of the front speakers? 

My speakers are NHT VT-2's which have built in 10" passive subs. I have a Parasound 200W stereo amp to power the subs. They are rated 6 ohms and are power hungry! I sit 11' away.

I might add a separate powered sub if it can help with my bass null.

Indecision may or may not be my problem.
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post #5332 of 8886 Old 08-06-2013, 08:39 PM
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^Interesting speakers.  That you are not asking the AVR to handle the low bass, are not sitting all that far from the speakers and that the speakers are rated 6 ohm all bodes well for not needing further ext amplification-the 4520 internal amps should be up to handling the task.

 

You may be aware that if you have flexibility with placement of FR/L and MLP, you may be able to address the null with clever placement.  Use of a room mode calculator will guide that process, best done with a measuring system like OmniMic or REW. 

 

Otherwise, one of the benefits of a separate sub or subs is smoothing the bass.  Again, some flexibility with placement of the sub(s) can improve results.


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post #5333 of 8886 Old 08-07-2013, 04:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirJohnFalstaff View Post

Thanks for the help guys. I wasn't aware that DTS-MA did that. Now I know to use PLIIx.

I unplugged everything this morning. Last night I noticed the 4520 ran a little warmer than my previous AVR's so I dropped down the shelf it sits on to add a bit more air flow. Even after 3 hours of use it's warm, but not what I would call hot. Fortunately it's in my basement home theater where the temperature never gets above 20 degrees Celsius. I re-ran Audyssey as well and this time remembered to leave the projector off to avoid any interference the fan might have caused. After auditioning several Blu-rays and playing Gears of War: Judgement for a few hours, I can say that I am quite happy with this AVR's performance. Without being able to A+B them, I am satisfied that it sounds a good as the Anthem MRX--although I still think the bass response is much more controlled and less boomy than with ARC. I've been concentrating on movies and games so far. I won't be able to listen to much music until my 6 analog cables show up for the DVD-3930 in a week or two.

Here's a photo of it my 4520's new home.


Nice rack.

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post #5334 of 8886 Old 08-07-2013, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhrischuk View Post

Fooled around with the system today. So far so good. Zone2 is working flawlessly, changing sources, switching main to off. Trying to break it but can't.

After over a week using the zones, I haven't experienced any issues.

Talked to a fellow a few days ago about it. He installs sound professionally. He said sometimes these newer units take a little time to "sync" with your particular settings. All I know is it really seems like it with my experience.
I think it has to do with the way I customized the amp usage.

So far I'm really enjoying the capabilities and sound. Again, I love the way you can customize which amps are on and which are off.

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post #5335 of 8886 Old 08-07-2013, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by knoxtn View Post

If I airplay my phone or ipad to the 4520 with Spotify that can be played back to zones 2 or 3 independently of the main zone. (?) This could seal the deal for me


That is soooo yesterday. Just buy a Sonus system -- then all is well

"Soooo yesterday?" Surely you mean the eleven year-old sonos methodology and NOT the relatively new role of avrs that pretty much make its purchase redundant for the vast majority?

Why would I spend more money when all I need is right in front of me? And the WORST case scenario is I use my $99 appletv to playback my entire music library and a ton of other media, in any zone, with complete volume and media control?

What I think is "soooo yesterday" are folks automatic default position on multiroom/zone audio being to spend hundreds on a sonos system when an ios device (that most most already own), a multi zone AVR (which again, all here already own) and apple tv will duplicate or even better what it offers.

I have challenged anyone to list what the sonos accomplishes that the aforementioned arrangement does not and I've yet to here a salient reason to go sonos...other than it does a much more efficient (never mind comprehensive) job at emptying one's wallet.

Seems to me that- honestly- many folks are simply ignorant as to what you can accomplish with an iphone/ipad, the appropriate FREE apps, and a modern, multi-zone AVR.

In a similar vein- I think it's a bit humorous that a few downplay the multi-zone capabilities of these hi-end AVRs when it is more than apparent that MANY of their "hi-end" users utilize them (the secondary zones) almost daily in many cases. They have a ton of merit and it's no accident that units contain 3 and even 4 zones and are in many ways becoming more versatile (outside of those pesky SPDIF options in some cases, lol tongue.gif ).

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post #5336 of 8886 Old 08-07-2013, 07:21 AM
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James, I think there is a place for both solutions. As a Sonos user, what I find appealing about the product is its simplicity. It takes a few minutes to set up, and simply works as designed with few issues. It is a single solution allowing access to my local library as well as a number of Internet music sources, with a well-designed interface that works on my IOS devices.

While my AVR offers similar capabilities, it takes more effort to get several different products to play nicely together in order to achieve what I have with the Sonos. And issues with Multi-zone playback seem to be affecting a number of users on these forums.

So, I agree that it may cost more, but the return on the investment is a full-featured, reliable, and simple to use solution.
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post #5337 of 8886 Old 08-07-2013, 07:42 AM
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Hey, guys. Audyssey set my center and main speakers to ‘Large’ and ‘Full Band’. I’ve selected LFE+Main and manually set the speaker sizes to ‘Small.’ The owner’s manual is a little unclear if doing this with affect the ability to use Audyssey MultEQ XT 32. I think it says that I can change the speaker configuration in the Manual Setup menu after I run Audyssey without affecting it, but if I make those changes in the Audyssey Setup menu, then I won’t be able to select Audyssey MultEQ XT 32, Audyssey Dynamic Volume and EQ. Does that sound right?

I made those changes last night and the little Audyssey logo is illuminated on the display, so I think it’s working as I want.

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post #5338 of 8886 Old 08-07-2013, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

James, I think there is a place for both solutions. As a Sonos user, what I find appealing about the product is its simplicity. It takes a few minutes to set up, and simply works as designed with few issues. It is a single solution allowing access to my local library as well as a number of Internet music sources, with a well-designed interface that works on my IOS devices.

While my AVR offers similar capabilities, it takes more effort to get several different products to play nicely together in order to achieve what I have with the Sonos. And issues with Multi-zone playback seem to be affecting a number of users on these forums.

So, I agree that it may cost more, but the return on the investment is a full-featured, reliable, and simple to use solution.

Yep there's definitely a place for either...it's simply a matter of the user's gear and what I would argue is a minute level of user/interface variability between the two.

I guess I don't understand or have experienced these problems re zone operation. It's about as straight forward as it gets: turn on desired zone, select desired input. In the case of spotify, push play on the app. All from the phone, before you can count to ten. All music and volume levels can be adjusted right there, on the fly, through a great interface. Done. Don't know how much simpler it could be, honestly. My wife had it down after one 2 minute demo. Now that surely means something, with all love and due respect for my wife. tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

All this, and I can play my directv audio (ball games and such) blu rays, and anything else I have connected to my avr...again, in a matter of seconds. How does sonos accomplish such things (without going right back to the avr)?

How much of that ten second process is whittled down with sonos? I'm not trying to be difficult- I damn near bought a full sonos array and then looked at things objectively and simply had to walk away...spent a good amount of time with it, as well.

I think the sonos had (and has, but shrinking) a place in the market...it's just not for anyone who knows their way around a multi-zone avr and iphone. smile.gif

James

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post #5339 of 8886 Old 08-07-2013, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post


 I'm trying to be difficult...
James

 

Agreed.  As I said, there is a place for both solutions, depending on what you want.

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post #5340 of 8886 Old 08-07-2013, 08:51 AM
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LMAO, yep, "not" would have helped. I simply have a different opinion that I substantiated with fact...no more "difficult" than what you contend. confused.gif

But ok, here's "difficult":

If what you want is a quick and easy way to play back every source you own in any zone, with complete library and volume levels controls at your fingertips, then an ios device and Denon 4520/4311 etc, will do everything you need quickly and easily.

If you want to have some limitations and spend more money than a sonos system will work too.

tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

James

Actual phone call (see pic to left):

 

Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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