The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 10794 Old 10-25-2012, 12:02 PM
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@Chris,

It would be useful to make sure you save the most recent A100 calibration results to compare with what you get with the 4520, assuming nothing else changes. Please make sure you write down the sub trim settings from the 4311, because, as Stuart says, we want to see if my experiences are duplicated by your AVR. And have plenty of reding material handy to pass the time while you are doing the Pro calibration!
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post #542 of 10794 Old 10-25-2012, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I agree with Chris, you are misinterpreting the results. Remember, both AVR's have MultEQ XT32, which is an Audyssey technology, not a Denon technology. There has been no technology change to MultEQ XT32, or we would have heard about it from Audyssey.

Probably, I'm trying to make sense how 0 change in wiring, room layout, speakers, angle, seating, etc can give such different results.

Maybe they released new firmware and fixed stuff quietly?
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post #543 of 10794 Old 10-25-2012, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

The problem arises during movie time, in which the front sound stage is STUNNING, with the wides and heights, but the rears just didn't seem to stand out and just get lost in the mix. (maybe they are really encoded like that????? )

(snip)

Having demo'd both of these scenes before in a friends higher end theater room, in which I took cliff notes of the surround sound cues, helped me manually adjust the rear levels. It ended being a +3db adjustment trim for each surround, and +4db adjustment for each sub, everything in the front sound stage remained AS-IS.
In post-adjustment "white noise" track, the rears, and subs seem too loud and not balanced, but during movies sound perfect.

Is it right or wrong? No idea, but I feel much happier.

have you tested the same scenes with Audyssey DSX disabled? One of the things that DSX does is something called "surround envelopment processing"; users in the Audyssey thread have done some testing and it appears that part of this processing involves decorrelating the surrounds (to make them more diffuse) and also dropping the level of the surrounds slightly. This (in theory) makes the front soundstage with the wide/height speakers more enveloping, and the stuff going on behind you less distracting, so you can be more "immersed" in the movie.... thus, the results you are experiencing could be a result of that.

It's interesting that you ended up adjusting each surround +3dB manually to restore your desired balance, because this is the exact amount by which DSX drops the level of each surround. If you have a calibration disc with test tones and an SPL meter, you can verify this by playing a tone to one of your surround speakers and measuring the SPL with DSX on vs. off.

As always, your preference rules the day, so if you prefer a slightly less front-heavy presentation, the approach you took to tweak the surround volumes is perfectly legit smile.gif

Same goes for the sub -- many folks prefer the bass a bit "hot", so if you like it roll with it.

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post #544 of 10794 Old 10-25-2012, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

have you tested the same scenes with Audyssey DSX disabled? One of the things that DSX does is something called "surround envelopment processing"; users in the Audyssey thread have done some testing and it appears that part of this processing involves decorrelating the surrounds (to make them more diffuse) and also dropping the level of the surrounds slightly. This (in theory) makes the front soundstage with the wide/height speakers more enveloping, and the stuff going on behind you less distracting, so you can be more "immersed" in the movie.... thus, the results you are experiencing could be a result of that.
It's interesting that you ended up adjusting each surround +3dB manually to restore your desired balance, because this is the exact amount by which DSX drops the level of each surround. If you have a calibration disc with test tones and an SPL meter, you can verify this by playing a tone to one of your surround speakers and measuring the SPL with DSX on vs. off.
As always, your preference rules the day, so if you prefer a slightly less front-heavy presentation, the approach you took to tweak the surround volumes is perfectly legit smile.gif
Same goes for the sub -- many folks prefer the bass a bit "hot", so if you like it roll with it.

Woo Hoo!! Great info!!!

Going to play the scenes later to verify. Based on the info you gave about +3db with DSX on, that lines up to my manual offset (Guess I have a good ear?)

I don't have a SPL Meter, I need to order one for sure. Any recommendations for a MIC?

Thanks!
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post #545 of 10794 Old 10-25-2012, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I agree with Chris, you are misinterpreting the results. Remember, both AVR's have MultEQ XT32, which is an Audyssey technology, not a Denon technology. There has been no technology change to MultEQ XT32, or we would have heard about it from Audyssey.

Probably, I'm trying to make sense how 0 change in wiring, room layout, speakers, angle, seating, etc can give such different results.

Maybe they released new firmware and fixed stuff quietly?

In my experience, having changed through multiple Denon AVR's with Audyssey from different generations, I also get changes in channel levels (absolute, not relative) with different models. It could be something as simple as the different mic, or some tweaks in the background to the digital gain structure at the DSP level. For example, changing recently from a 2310ci to a 2113ci resulted in channel levels that were about 3dB higher across the board. However, when I measured with an SPL meter the absolute output hadn't changed.

As long as the *relative* levels are good and the system sounds balanced, I wouldn't sweat it.

In terms of your musings on EQ (cutting peaks vs. raising valleys), as Chris notes the EQ is independent of the channel level trims. The channel trims are set via the Audyssey "chirps" which measure the speaker's output without EQ. When Audyssey applies its EQ, Chris (Audyssey CTO/founder) has explained that there is a "normalization" process by which the relative levels are maintained to account for whatever EQ cuts or bumps were made. For example, if the sub volume is set to a specific level with the test tones during calibration, but there is a massive modal hump at 80Hz that Audyssey needs to cut by 10-12dB, the resultant average level of the sub may be reduced from where the channel level would have set it. To correct for this, the overall sub level is "normalized" with the other speakers to make sure the average level is still balanced.

However, this "normalization" process is part of the Audyssey block and is still independent of the channel trims -- otherwise your system balance would be thrown off if you disabled Audyssey EQ.

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post #546 of 10794 Old 10-25-2012, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

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Edit:  Subliminal message, you know you want to upgrade........

i could wait no longer, and mike has my order... smile.gif hopefully should be here in a couple weeks...

LMAO!!!! That didn't take long!! tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

Now I'm tempted to go pull up old quotes about you not feeling the need to upgrade any time soon....

yea yea yea... tongue.gif

you could probably find those quotes from me in many threads over the last half dozen years... redface.gif well, except for that godawful integra.... biggrin.gif

- chris

 

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post #547 of 10794 Old 10-25-2012, 12:45 PM
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@stuart and jerry...

ok, will do... i need to run a new pro cal anyway on the 4311, i moved a few things around... just doing quickie cals right now as i try out a few things...

unfortunately, i'm down to the one subm right now (ib subs still in planning phases, and likely won't get done until spring at least), but i should be able to get some comparative results...

i'll also do some omnimic sweeps... do we only care about the modal region, or do we want a full sweep?

jerry, since i'm using a serial to serial connection, we'll also find out whether or not the throughput issue is consistent...

- chris

 

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post #548 of 10794 Old 10-25-2012, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

have you tested the same scenes with Audyssey DSX disabled? One of the things that DSX does is something called "surround envelopment processing"; users in the Audyssey thread have done some testing and it appears that part of this processing involves decorrelating the surrounds (to make them more diffuse) and also dropping the level of the surrounds slightly. This (in theory) makes the front soundstage with the wide/height speakers more enveloping, and the stuff going on behind you less distracting, so you can be more "immersed" in the movie.... thus, the results you are experiencing could be a result of that.
It's interesting that you ended up adjusting each surround +3dB manually to restore your desired balance, because this is the exact amount by which DSX drops the level of each surround. If you have a calibration disc with test tones and an SPL meter, you can verify this by playing a tone to one of your surround speakers and measuring the SPL with DSX on vs. off.
As always, your preference rules the day, so if you prefer a slightly less front-heavy presentation, the approach you took to tweak the surround volumes is perfectly legit smile.gif
Same goes for the sub -- many folks prefer the bass a bit "hot", so if you like it roll with it.

Woo Hoo!! Great info!!!

Going to play the scenes later to verify. Based on the info you gave about +3db with DSX on, that lines up to my manual offset (Guess I have a good ear?)

I don't have a SPL Meter, I need to order one for sure. Any recommendations for a MIC?

Thanks!

personally, i have found the omnimic kit from parts express to be very easy to use... i think it's around 3 bills these days...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #549 of 10794 Old 10-25-2012, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

@stuart and jerry...
ok, will do... i need to run a new pro cal anyway on the 4311, i moved a few things around... just doing quickie cals right now as i try out a few things...
unfortunately, i'm down to the one subm right now (ib subs still in planning phases, and likely won't get done until spring at least), but i should be able to get some comparative results...
i'll also do some omnimic sweeps... do we only care about the modal region, or do we want a full sweep?
jerry, since i'm using a serial to serial connection, we'll also find out whether or not the throughput issue is consistent...

I'd say modal region (<200 Hz for completion) unless anyone feels differently. Thanks for indulging the spirit of scientific inquiry:). The only issue is that for what AJ found, a multiple sub configuration would be the most appropriate A/B test. But it can't hurt to test the Pro kit this way for folks with a single sub.

Meanwhile, out of boredom, I searched through some of your 4311-related posts from the past six months over lunch. To be fair, you've been in lust for the 4520 since at least mid-August. You're truly an easy mark:).

Stuart

 

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post #550 of 10794 Old 10-25-2012, 01:31 PM
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Am I correct in assuming that the same microphone and computer were used for the Pro calibrations which resulted in different speaker trims?

Earlier this summer when some Onkyos were reported to have very unpleasant calibrations, it was reported in the Audyssey thread that the microphones shipped with the various units supporting Audyssey are allowed to vary from one to another in over-all sensitivity by +/- 2db. That kind of difference in microphone sensitivity could explain an overall channel level change like the one reported, but only for a non-Pro calibration.

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post #551 of 10794 Old 10-25-2012, 01:42 PM
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@stuart...

ok, got it, modal and diffusion/diffraction (at least in my room)... you know i am of an inquisitive bent... smile.gif and it would be nice to see if i can duplicate jerry's results (albeit with 1 sub)... if nothing else, we'll be able to see how the single sub reacts... the "distance trick" has been known to pay dividends with single subs as well...

hmmm... trying to think of who nearby me has a subm that would be willing to drag it over here so we can do some dual sub testing... i think chris (hudda) may be closest, but i also know this is closing in on his busiest time of year... the other option is that i could drag the avr over to bfreedma's house and we can do measurements on his jl's... my only fear there is that he'd ply me with scotch* and i'd end up leaving it there... tongue.gif

yea, i know... but i have had the a100 for almost 18 months... that's a pretty impressive run... it's longer than i've had anything in the last 10 years... redface.gif

* if anyone likes scotch, they would be wise to be nice to bfreedma... his collection is rather extensive... smile.gif

- chris

 

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post #552 of 10794 Old 10-25-2012, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

@stuart...
ok, got it, modal and diffusion/diffraction (at least in my room)... you know i am of an inquisitive bent... smile.gif and it would be nice to see if i can duplicate jerry's results (albeit with 1 sub)... if nothing else, we'll be able to see how the single sub reacts... the "distance trick" has been known to pay dividends with single subs as well...
hmmm... trying to think of who nearby me has a subm that would be willing to drag it over here so we can do some dual sub testing... i think chris (hudda) may be closest, but i also know this is closing in on his busiest time of year... the other option is that i could drag the avr over to bfreedma's house and we can do measurements on his jl's... my only fear there is that he'd ply me with scotch* and i'd end up leaving it there... tongue.gif
yea, i know... but i have had the a100 for almost 18 months... that's a pretty impressive run... it's longer than i've had anything in the last 10 years... redface.gif
* if anyone likes scotch, they would be wise to be nice to bfreedma... his collection is rather extensive... smile.gif

Well, you could bring the 4520 to Chicago and I could ply you with Goose Island Ales...or maybe a couple of Sterling Vineyard Viogniers or Cab Francs we picked up in Canada last year biggrin.gif

Still, thanks for taking one for the "team".

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

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post #553 of 10794 Old 10-25-2012, 03:03 PM
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i could wait no longer, and mike has my order... smile.gif hopefully should be here in a couple weeks...

Hmmm, what a shocker rolleyes.gif

CONGRATS!

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[quote name="VTGOLFER" url="/t/1430049/the-official-denon-avr-4520ci-thread/510#post_22525389" Will the Denon allow me to utilize the Maggies in this way say through Zone 2 or in another way. If so how is the two channel sound in Zone 2 for critical listening?.[/quote]
Multi-channel + 2-channel connection is on page 96 0f the manual and should exactly what you want. It's one of the things I can't wait to play with.
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post #555 of 10794 Old 10-25-2012, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Note: I did experience a significant difference in how the 4520 handles sub distances for multiple subs, which I documented in the Audyssey Pro thread (the 4520 calculates sub distances more accurately).

Correction to my earlier comment:

Distances using the denon remote, on screen show subwoofers1&2 at 12.6' exactly EACH (now that I'm home and can look at everything again)

But if you go through the IP address in a web browser for setup, and go to the same speaker tab, you will notice
SW1 = 1.2 feet
SW2 = 12.6 feet

They are physically equal distances though.

I thought this was strange . .
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post #556 of 10794 Old 10-25-2012, 07:12 PM
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just simple spec comparison of the 4520CI to the 5308CI for power both are 150 watts per channel all driven at 0.05% THD.

Realizing that they clearly are different amp designs, yet both are Denon deigned, so in the end are they basically "equal" in the power department?
I did a search in this thread for 5308 and did not see any discussion as such, so I'm asking it now.

On that note, what can the 5308 "do" that they 4520 "can't" ?
It's still being sold for 2x the cost, so what does that get you?

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Although the 5308CI is likely to benchmark with higher wattage, the 5308CI would need the "$1000 3D/XT32" upgrade to make it comparable with the 4520CI. A few features the 5308CI offers (not found on 4520CI) would be Dolby Headphone, HDCD decoder, THX surround modes, wireless connection, and Denon Link 3rd. A few features the 4520CI offers not found on the 5308CI are Denon Link HD, Zone 4(HDMI), HDMI 1.4 jacks (vice only 3D pass through with HDMI 1.3 jacks on the 5308CI), 4k upscaling and pass through, Audyssey LFC, InstaPreview, 4-port ethernet hub, and expandable to 11.2 w/2CH amp.

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Quote:
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Thx Daniel, so the Alum case being better engineered/optimized year-year with CAE/Finite element analaysis possibly counts for some of the reduction in 4308-4310-4311 weight, and now the 4520....I'm ok with that.
Still, I'd like technical/performance power comparison of 4520 vs 5308 real world usage.
Something AVS or Audioaholicis may take up??
Ano NO, I don't have a 4520 yet......still thinking.

Well i personally would not be shocked if the 4520 and 5308 would be very close in power output. There will be area's where the 5308 will have the edge but unless you do the xt32 upgrade the 4520 would probably be my pick. Now imho the avp is on a different level since the whole analog and powersupply is so massively different from both. The shared part between the 5308 and avp was mostly its digital and processing parts a area where time moves on and 4520 had it easiest to catch up. Ive just seen someone talk about a avp below $3000 with the update for me it would be no contest smile.gif

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Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

+1
Somehow, it's a bit hard to understand that a much light amp has the same power capability?
Also, I notice that modern amp have less caps, eg my 4311 has lower rated caps than my older Marantz SR 12 S1, which had 90 000 mF worth of caps for seven channels. My even more ancient SR 18 EX had 90 000 for 5 channels. Now that's power.
Happy to know that the light weight is related to some improvement or more more efficient design, but I doubt it.
I will buy the 4520 or AV 8801 as a processor, and the internal amps of the 4520 will be a good bonus to power the rear channels, but I am considering a Mcintosh MC 8207 or something warm for my fronts.
Also, someone I know in the DACs industry, who has access to top end amps, says that D&M are on a costing cutting drive owing to recent events, so neither the 4520 or AV 8801 are their best products and they needed to jack up the costs. The Onkyo, Pioneer and Yamaha amps are better, when you come HT performance in this generation..
I was a little affected, since I am a big D & M fan, having owned 5 of their amps. Nevertheless, I am still looking out for a reason to swop out my 4311 for these two.
+1

But a modest investment in a XPA-3 for LCR will last several AVR generations.

From the 3 manuals:
5308CI ; 11Amps @ 120V = 1320 watts, pretty close to the 1440 watts rule for 80% of 15A service
5308CI.JPG


4520CI; 780 watts @ 120V = 6.5A ; this seems kinda "light" for a top tier AVR

4520CI.JPG

4308CI; 8.1 Amps @ 120V = 972 watts
4308CI.jpg



Purely from the power consumption seems the 5308CI is greatest, followed by the 4308CI, then the 4520CI.

That either means the 4520CI has newly engineered circuits that truly offer more "bang for the buck", or....

fwiw I'm now looking at a XPA-3 for the LCR, same as others here have done.
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post #557 of 10794 Old 10-25-2012, 07:19 PM
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For those who have the XPA3 with their Denons, what kind of speakers do you use it with?
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post #558 of 10794 Old 10-25-2012, 07:24 PM
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For those who have the XPA3 with their Denons, what kind of speakers do you use it with?

 

PSB Synchrony One Towers, 4 Ohm, 90 dB sensitivity.

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post #559 of 10794 Old 10-25-2012, 07:26 PM
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Correction to my earlier comment:
Distances using the denon remote, on screen show subwoofers1&2 at 12.6' exactly EACH (now that I'm home and can look at everything again)
But if you go through the IP address in a web browser for setup, and go to the same speaker tab, you will notice
SW1 = 1.2 feet
SW2 = 12.6 feet
They are physically equal distances though.
I thought this was strange . .

 

Can you go into the 4520 menu, browse to Speakers/Audyssey/View Results and tell us what the distances are for the two subs? 

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post #560 of 10794 Old 10-25-2012, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

@stuart...

ok, got it, modal and diffusion/diffraction (at least in my room)... you know i am of an inquisitive bent... smile.gif and it would be nice to see if i can duplicate jerry's results (albeit with 1 sub)... if nothing else, we'll be able to see how the single sub reacts... the "distance trick" has been known to pay dividends with single subs as well...

hmmm... trying to think of who nearby me has a subm that would be willing to drag it over here so we can do some dual sub testing... i think chris (hudda) may be closest, but i also know this is closing in on his busiest time of year... the other option is that i could drag the avr over to bfreedma's house and we can do measurements on his jl's... my only fear there is that he'd ply me with scotch* and i'd end up leaving it there... tongue.gif

yea, i know... but i have had the a100 for almost 18 months... that's a pretty impressive run... it's longer than i've had anything in the last 10 years... redface.gif

* if anyone likes scotch, they would be wise to be nice to bfreedma... his collection is rather extensive... smile.gif

There goes plan "A" for my 4520 upgrade tongue.gif

And I just got back from my "secret" whiskey spot in NYC with new bottles of Glengoyne 21 y/o, an 18 y/o Courveur single malt single cask, and a 28 y/o Hirsch bourbon - figured I could have snagged the 4520 and even had you run the cal for me in my own room with that ammo.

We can run the tests here on the JL's if you want to haul it over. It would be interesting to see the results and I'll even promise to let you leave with 4520 when done.
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post #561 of 10794 Old 10-25-2012, 09:06 PM
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^^^

oh oh... i better not tell swmbo that you have new supplies, she'll be waiting on your doorstep tomorrow... tongue.gif

that sounds reasonable... especially since the a100 just sold and will be getting boxed up over the weekend, so i won't be able to run the asked for comparisons... we'll set something up when we have dinner next week... smile.gif

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post #562 of 10794 Old 10-25-2012, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

oh oh... i better not tell swmbo that you have new supplies, she'll be waiting on your doorstep tomorrow... tongue.gif

that sounds reasonable... especially since the a100 just sold and will be getting boxed up over the weekend, so i won't be able to run the asked for comparisons... we'll set something up when we have dinner next week... smile.gif

Sounds like a plan. Certainly didn't take you long to find a new home for the A-100 - those iron feet really sell! Congrats on the new toy.
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post #563 of 10794 Old 10-25-2012, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Can you go into the 4520 menu, browse to Speakers/Audyssey/View Results and tell us what the distances are for the two subs? 

Sure enough Jerry:

Here are the results
AVR4520ci_Audyssey_Results.jpg
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post #564 of 10794 Old 10-25-2012, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

PSB Synchrony One Towers, 4 Ohm, 90 dB sensitivity.
Impressive.. 4 ohm speakers with the Denon...
I have a XPA 3 with the 4311, it didn't quite gel with my Monitor Audio GS series...

Well, let's see how much it will cost...
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post #565 of 10794 Old 10-26-2012, 12:21 AM
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BTW the 4520 doen't do wireless right? You still need to plug a ethernet cable?

Can I use this: TP-Link TL-WN722N 150Mbps High Gain Wireless USB Adapter
http://www.amazon.com/TP-Link-TL-WN722N-150Mbps-Wireless-Adapter/dp/B002WBX9C6/ref=cm_cr_dp_asin_lnk
To give it wi fi?
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post #566 of 10794 Old 10-26-2012, 03:47 AM
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Correct. Unlike the 4810CI it replaces, the 4520CI requires a wired ethernet connection similar to the 4311CI it also replaces. Although this wired connection can be to another router acting as a wireless bridge to the home's main WiFi router, wireless adapters such as what you linked to will not work.

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post #567 of 10794 Old 10-26-2012, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Purely from the power consumption seems the 5308CI is greatest, followed by the 4308CI, then the 4520CI.
That either means the 4520CI has newly engineered circuits that truly offer more "bang for the buck", or....
fwiw I'm now looking at a XPA-3 for the LCR, same as others here have done.

You're not going to get a fair representation of power consumption by looking at the printed results in the manual, rather the best way to rate them is via comparable benchmark testing. Regardless, the difference between the models will be moot in everyday usuage.

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post #568 of 10794 Old 10-26-2012, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Correct. Unlike the 4810CI it replaces, the 4520CI requires a wired ethernet connection similar to the 4311CI it also replaces. Although this wired connection can be to another router acting as a wireless bridge to the home's main WiFi router, wireless adapters such as what you linked to will not work.

Thanks for the info, I bought a TP Link Wi Fi thingy: http://pcworld.co.nz/pcworld/pcw.nsf/reviews/tp-link-tl-mr3020
Works like a charm.


As for the power issue, I think I would like to have the reserves of the 5308, but if it can power the rear channels, I will opt to use better power amps for the front three. If this allows me to save money, I will be keen. Not too impressed with the price increase on my 4311, but since I can find a buyer for it, I am keen to press the button on the 4520, especially if there are less teething issues than the 4311 when it first came out.

It took me a year before I had the courage to swop out my 2809 for the 4311...
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post #569 of 10794 Old 10-26-2012, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Correct. Unlike the 4810CI it replaces, the 4520CI requires a wired ethernet connection similar to the 4311CI it also replaces. Although this wired connection can be to another router acting as a wireless bridge to the home's main WiFi router, wireless adapters such as what you linked to will not work.

Even if it was wireless, I would still prefer a wired connection over a wireless one if possible.

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post #570 of 10794 Old 10-26-2012, 08:03 AM
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Well, you could bring the 4520 to Chicago and I could ply you with Goose Island Ales...or maybe a couple of Sterling Vineyard Viogniers or Cab Francs we picked up in Canada last year biggrin.gif

If he happens to be a basketball fan, I can add Bulls tickets to the Chicago compensation. =p
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