The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 191 - AVS Forum
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post #5701 of 10153 Old 09-15-2013, 07:22 PM
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Ok so just for clarification if all my speakers are set to large LFE will still be sent to the sub. This is something I misunderstood. For some reason I thought had all speakers been set to large the sub would be bypassed. I thought LFE would be sent to the satellites. I would also like to note the calibration for this unit corrected a sub issue I had I was always able to localize bass with MCACC I tried everything with the exception of getting an eq for my sub. With the pioneer I always had it set to 80hz all small and it just was no good.
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post #5702 of 10153 Old 09-15-2013, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a33montoya View Post

Ok so just for clarification if all my speakers are set to large LFE will still be sent to the sub. This is something I misunderstood. For some reason I thought had all speakers been set to large the sub would be bypassed. I thought LFE would be sent to the satellites. I would also like to note the calibration for this unit corrected a sub issue I had I was always able to localize bass with MCACC I tried everything with the exception of getting an eq for my sub. With the pioneer I always had it set to 80hz all small and it just was no good.

Your understanding is correct now. However, keep in mind that most music sources have no LFE content, so you will want to route music bass content to the sub(s) by setting the satellite speakers to small. Enjoy your new AVR!
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post #5703 of 10153 Old 09-15-2013, 08:10 PM
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Thank you JD. Wow...that seems pretty hokey. If I can dig up a hub or a copper tap, I'll try to figure out what exactly is going wrong with Airplay's RTSP or RTP.

Thanks,
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post #5704 of 10153 Old 09-16-2013, 01:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a33montoya View Post

Ok so just for clarification if all my speakers are set to large LFE will still be sent to the sub. This is something I misunderstood. For some reason I thought had all speakers been set to large the sub would be bypassed. I thought LFE would be sent to the satellites. I would also like to note the calibration for this unit corrected a sub issue I had I was always able to localize bass with MCACC I tried everything with the exception of getting an eq for my sub. With the pioneer I always had it set to 80hz all small and it just was no good.

The LFE track (0.1 in DD/DTS 5.1/6.1/7.1) is the "sub channel" track and is only directed to the sub when one is in the setup, otherwise if not, it is redirected to the FL/FR speakers. Also an important reminder that Audyssey is NOT setting the speakers to LARGE, rather the AVR is doing this which is why it's okay to change the setting to SMALL without impacting the Audyssey EQ. In fact Audyssey (the company) has been trying for years to get the mfrs to either default all speakers to SMALL or allow Audyssey to set them to SMALL when there is a capable sub in the setup.

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post #5705 of 10153 Old 09-16-2013, 11:12 AM
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I watched transformers part 1 today and at 0 on the receiver it didn't have the same impact as the old pioneer I had. I use the desert scene as a reference. With the pioneer at 0 my sound meter use to peak at 102db with the Denon it only gets to about 89db. It does sound better just less impact and for sure less volume.
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post #5706 of 10153 Old 09-16-2013, 11:24 AM
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That doesn't sound right to me. I haven't actually metered a movie @ reference but watching at about -10 to -15 @ 12' away I was getting peaks in the mid-upper nineties.
How efficient are your speakers and how far away do you sit?

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post #5707 of 10153 Old 09-16-2013, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Sounds like Dynamic Volume is on (or possibly some DRC is engaged in the player or something like that).

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post #5708 of 10153 Old 09-16-2013, 11:38 AM
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I find my 4520 has as much or more " impact " and volumn as any other reciever I've owned. Set all your speakers to small for sure.

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post #5709 of 10153 Old 09-16-2013, 11:44 AM
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Dynamic volume and DRC are things I am still researching and yes they are on. Let me ask you this what should I have on or off for reference level listening? Right now it has DRC on auto and dynamic voloume and dynamic eq on also. At lower volumes it sounds more full and louder than my old pioneer it was only when I tested the reference level that I noticed a decrease in overall impact. My speakers are listed below.

Polk LSiM 705 Front 88db 8ohm Powered by Parasound A21
Polk LSiM 706c Center 88db 8ohm Powered by Denon 4520
Polk 700-LS surrounds 90db 8ohm Powered by Denon 4520
Polk 500-LS surround rears 89db 8ohm Powered by Denon 4520
Sub SVS PB-12Plus
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Sounds like Dynamic Volume is on (or possibly some DRC is engaged in the player or something like that).
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post #5710 of 10153 Old 09-16-2013, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a33montoya View Post

Dynamic volume and DRC are things I am still researching and yes they are on. Let me ask you this what should I have on or off for reference level listening? Right now it has DRC on auto and dynamic voloume and dynamic eq on also. At lower volumes it sounds more full and louder than my old pioneer it was only when I tested the reference level that I noticed a decrease in overall impact. My speakers are listed below.

Polk LSiM 705 Front 88db 8ohm Powered by Parasound A21
Polk LSiM 706c Center 88db 8ohm Powered by Denon 4520
Polk 700-LS surrounds 90db 8ohm Powered by Denon 4520
Polk 500-LS surround rears 89db 8ohm Powered by Denon 4520
Sub SVS PB-12Plus

 

 

Dynamic EQ should be on.  For now, set Reference Level Offset to zero.  Turn Dynamic Volume off.

 

On my 4520, using the REW SPL mic, and master volume at -15, War of the Worlds Chapter 5 (Pods emerging) registers 100dB at the MLP.  For my ears, that is pretty loud.

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post #5711 of 10153 Old 09-16-2013, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Dynamic Volume and DRC restrict dynamic range so you definitely should have them OFF if you want the full "reference" output.

Also verify at the player that no range compressors are active (like DRC or "dialogue enhancement" or anything like that).

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post #5712 of 10153 Old 09-16-2013, 12:26 PM
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Thanks for all the help guys I will try this today before everyone gets home lol. I will try my war of the worlds and see if after these changes if I can get close to your results at least +-5db
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post #5713 of 10153 Old 09-16-2013, 02:20 PM
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After making the changes everything seems better I got 92db on chapter 5 war of the worlds using iPod SPL Pro app. So it probably is off giving its not a nice meter/pro mic.
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post #5714 of 10153 Old 09-19-2013, 11:36 AM
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Thanks to everyone on the forum - I have been reading through the entire thread and learning a whole lot about my Denon 4520. The question I have for the group is whether there would be much SQ improvements if I switched from my current amp, an Emotiva XPR-5, to a Parasound Halo A51? I am using the amp to bi-amp my FL/R and power my center channel (B&W Nautilus 802's and a B&W HTM1 center channel). Would my money be better spent on acoustical treatments as my room is currently untreated. I am running a full 11.2 setup and just love this receiver. Mainly listen in NeoX as I like that sound better than DSX. Any thoughts on how to best use my available funds would be appreciated. Also, if the answer is spend it on acoustical treatments, about how much should I budget for that? Thanks everyone!
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post #5715 of 10153 Old 09-19-2013, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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I think most people on this thread would agree that you get a LOT more bang from the buck by investing in a measurement program (REW requires $100 for a mic and a bit of a learning curve) and then using those measurements to optimize speaker placement and guide the addition of acoustic treatments. Adding a slightly nicer amplifier may make an incremental difference if your current amp is running out of steam at high volumes, but attacking the room itself is going to yield much greater results.

I will let some of the experts like AustinJerry guide you to the REW thread and offer answers on things like budget etc.

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post #5716 of 10153 Old 09-19-2013, 11:52 AM
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Adding a slightly nicer amplifier may make an incremental difference if your current amp is running out of steam at high volumes, but attacking the room itself is going to yield much greater results.

+ 1. Adding acoustic treatments to my room had friends asking if I had gotten new speakers - before I actually got new speakers or replaced my 4310 with a 4520 and got an Emotive amp and went from 7.1 to 11.1. smile.gif

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post #5717 of 10153 Old 09-19-2013, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonofsoren View Post

Thanks to everyone on the forum - I have been reading through the entire thread and learning a whole lot about my Denon 4520. The question I have for the group is whether there would be much SQ improvements if I switched from my current amp, an Emotiva XPR-5, to a Parasound Halo A51? I am using the amp to bi-amp my FL/R and power my center channel (B&W Nautilus 802's and a B&W HTM1 center channel). Would my money be better spent on acoustical treatments as my room is currently untreated. I am running a full 11.2 setup and just love this receiver. Mainly listen in NeoX as I like that sound better than DSX. Any thoughts on how to best use my available funds would be appreciated. Also, if the answer is spend it on acoustical treatments, about how much should I budget for that? Thanks everyone!

 

Unless your current amp is clipping at the SPLs you want to listen at, changing the amp will get you nothing in terms of better SQ. Acoustic treatments, OTOH, are the biggest bang for the buck in audio and will make a huge difference. s batpig says, if you invest 95 bucks in a calibrated mic and download the free REW software, you will have a fabulous tool with which to measure your room, which will then help you with the acoustic panels - type, placement, quantity etc.

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post #5718 of 10153 Old 09-19-2013, 02:21 PM
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Thanks batpig, Craig, and kbarnes701 for the feedback. I figured that going with acoustical treatments was the way to go. My Emotiva XPR-5 amp is probably overkill for my setup anyways and seldomly do I ever even see the blue indicator lights even move (I typically listen between 50-60 on the receiver). AustinJerry, if it is ok, I will pm you later to get some more info on REW mics and software. Thanks again everyone - just trying to squeeze out every once of improvement in my setup as I can.
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post #5719 of 10153 Old 09-21-2013, 05:45 AM
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I have a minor peculiarity that someone may be able to solve for me.

I am using a new device called a Media Player that allows me to download and play movies. It has an HDMI connection directly to the TV display, and a second HDMI connection directly to the 4520 for Multi-channel and lossless audio. When the AVR is receiving an audio signal, the front panel shows "Mult Ch In", signifying a multi-channel signal, but never identifies the exact format, e.g. Dolby Digital, DTS HD MSTR, etc.

So, in order to check what type of signal I am receiving, I open the 4520 menu and scroll down to the General/Info/Audio selection. I am viewing the menu on the AVR's front panel, because the on-screen display is not functional when using the Media Player (because video is not going through the AVR). However, I can't seem to actually see the information that the Info section should be displaying. I have tried all the keystrokes I can think of, but can never see the actual "info". Can someone else try this to see if I am doing something wrong? Thanks.
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post #5720 of 10153 Old 09-21-2013, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I have a minor peculiarity that someone may be able to solve for me.

I am using a new device called a Media Player that allows me to download and play movies. It has an HDMI connection directly to the TV display, and a second HDMI connection directly to the 4520 for Multi-channel and lossless audio. When the AVR is receiving an audio signal, the front panel shows "Mult Ch In", signifying a multi-channel signal, but never identifies the exact format, e.g. Dolby Digital, DTS HD MSTR, etc.

So, in order to check what type of signal I am receiving, I open the 4520 menu and scroll down to the General/Info/Audio selection. I am viewing the menu on the AVR's front panel, because the on-screen display is not functional when using the Media Player (because video is not going through the AVR). However, I can't seem to actually see the information that the Info section should be displaying. I have tried all the keystrokes I can think of, but can never see the actual "info". Can someone else try this to see if I am doing something wrong? Thanks.

 

Your new Media Player must be sending PCM to the 4520 and not bitstream. If it is sending PCM then the AVR will identify this as M/ch 5.1 or M/ch 7.1 etc. Does the Media Player itself have accessible menus?  If so there may be a setting in there to change the output from PCM to bitstream.  It makes no difference anyway because the content is identical wherever it happens to be 'unpacked'. 

 
I realise this isn't what you were asking, but even if you find the correct way to display the AVR 'info' on the unit's display, it will still say M/ch 5.1 or LPCM 5.1 or however Denon decide to phrase it. It will never say DTS-HD MA because it will only say that if the source is decoding the data stream. 
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post #5721 of 10153 Old 09-21-2013, 06:06 AM
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Hey everyone,

I was wondering if there is a way to get the 4520ci to display the following:

With either the x4000 or the 4520ci when you hit the info button it displays the source, sound and signal being used during playback.
However, on the x4000 the display also shows the input signal and active speakers being used which I my 4520 does not.
Is there a setting or anyway to get the input signal and active speakers to display on the 4520ci?

Here is a video that shows what I am talking about. See :35 - :55.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o7MFNlUbIA
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post #5722 of 10153 Old 09-21-2013, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
 

 

Your new Media Player must be sending PCM to the 4520 and not bitstream. If it is sending PCM then the AVR will identify this as M/ch 5.1 or M/ch 7.1 etc. Does the Media Player itself have accessible menus?  If so there may be a setting in there to change the output from PCM to bitstream.  It makes no difference anyway because the content is identical wherever it happens to be 'unpacked'.

 
I realise this isn't what you were asking, but even if you find the correct way to display the AVR 'info' on the unit's display, it will still say M/ch 5.1 or LPCM 5.1 or however Denon decide to phrase it. It will never say DTS-HD MA because it will only say that if the source is decoding the data stream.

 

 

Good point, Keith.  I'm sure it is outputting PCM, now that you mention it.  There is no option to change to bitstream in the player.  Other than whether to output sound to the TV or the AVR, the player is devoid of any other user-configurable options.  I guess this means that being able to view the audio info on the AVR really isn't important after all.

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post #5723 of 10153 Old 09-21-2013, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Just check in the web GUI if you want to confirm.

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post #5724 of 10153 Old 09-21-2013, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
 

 

Your new Media Player must be sending PCM to the 4520 and not bitstream. If it is sending PCM then the AVR will identify this as M/ch 5.1 or M/ch 7.1 etc. Does the Media Player itself have accessible menus?  If so there may be a setting in there to change the output from PCM to bitstream.  It makes no difference anyway because the content is identical wherever it happens to be 'unpacked'.

 
I realise this isn't what you were asking, but even if you find the correct way to display the AVR 'info' on the unit's display, it will still say M/ch 5.1 or LPCM 5.1 or however Denon decide to phrase it. It will never say DTS-HD MA because it will only say that if the source is decoding the data stream.

 

 

Good point, Keith.  I'm sure it is outputting PCM, now that you mention it.  There is no option to change to bitstream in the player.  Other than whether to output sound to the TV or the AVR, the player is devoid of any other user-configurable options.  I guess this means that being able to view the audio info on the AVR really isn't important after all.

 

Quite. And there's no difference in PQ anyway, so enjoy!

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post #5725 of 10153 Old 09-21-2013, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reyalP View Post

Hey everyone,

I was wondering if there is a way to get the 4520ci to display the following:

With either the x4000 or the 4520ci when you hit the info button it displays the source, sound and signal being used during playback.
However, on the x4000 the display also shows the input signal and active speakers being used which I my 4520 does not.
Is there a setting or anyway to get the input signal and active speakers to display on the 4520ci?

Here is a video that shows what I am talking about. See :35 - :55.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o7MFNlUbIA

No, this feature was added in the new E/X series models. The 4520 can't do that.

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post #5726 of 10153 Old 09-21-2013, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Just check in the web GUI if you want to confirm.

 

 

That is too simple, BP.  I don't use the web interface very often, so that's why it doesn't present itself as an option very often.

 

Thanks!

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post #5727 of 10153 Old 09-21-2013, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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You could probably even add a bookmark for the info page in your smartphone or tablet browser for instant access. It's nice because you get it all on one page including HDMI input/output resolution, input signal, surround mode etc. Much quicker than digging in the GUI.

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post #5728 of 10153 Old 09-22-2013, 07:23 AM
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Hey guys, I am going back and forth between a 4520ci and Pioneer SC-77, but can't make up my mind. I have a 5.1 system with MartinLogan Motion 40 (2x front), 30 (1x center), 15(2x rear) and a sub. I listened to both at my local BB, they sounded almost the same, but maybe Pioneer was a tad brighter. Just purely speaking from the audio quality point of view, is there anything I should consider that makes 4520ci a better avr?
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post #5729 of 10153 Old 09-22-2013, 07:34 AM
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^Hi, welcome.  IMO the most significant SQ advantage of the Denon is Audyssey MultEQXT32. You will not hear that difference in the showroom as you have to run Autosetup so the DSP RC program can measure the speakers in the room and apply corrections.


Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #5730 of 10153 Old 09-22-2013, 07:36 AM - Thread Starter
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For sure you should consider that Audyssey XT32 is a much better room correction system than Pio's MCACC.

Out of curiosity though for only a 5.1 setup why are you looking at these flagship type $2k receivers?? Why not, say, a Denon X4000 which has the same XT32 calibration?

batpig's "Denon-to-English Dictionary"
Setup Guide and FAQ
http://batpigworld.com/

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