The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 193 - AVS Forum
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post #5761 of 10619 Old 09-23-2013, 08:27 AM
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Hi Guys,

I read (OK browsed wink.gif) this: http://www.ixbt.com/multimedia/acoustics-correction.shtml translated and got the gist of the testing.
Interesting read...and haven't people in the US been asking for this kind of comparison for years? wink.gif I'm glad someone can do it, even in Russia.

I can't argue with their conclusions because those of you who came from Pioneer and those of us current owners know what should be improved in MCACC. I do know Pioneer is working on a new version but I can't post what's been said to me.

Steve
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post #5762 of 10619 Old 09-23-2013, 08:30 AM
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Many (most?) people will hear a "smooth sound" if you tell them that's what they're hearing. E.g interconnect and power cord snake oil is quite successful. Placebo effects and expectation bias are very real psycho-physical contributors.

Certainly after running Audyssey, the calibrated outputs of the 4520 and a system using an 8801 should be identical, assuming the listening environment is identical. Well, to the extent that multiple runs of Audyssey produce the same result, anyhow. smile.gif

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post #5763 of 10619 Old 09-23-2013, 08:41 AM
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A bit OT, but considering the posts about Marantz amps, maybe this will be of interest.

Last issue of Stereophile has a review of Lamm tube monoblocks that cost $140,000 per pair. Yes, those are the correct zeros wink.gif and the spec is it will reach 37 watts @ 3% THD. yes, that's 3%! those that have lots of money to (ahem) waste and love euphonic distortion could be happy owners. Even Michael Fremer commented in the review that's 3 times what they consider clipping. IIRC, it hits 1% THD at around 12 watts IIRC. He does say it sounds excellent, what tube amps are about - at that price and low power to distortion ratio, I would hope it sounds heavenly.

Even for the sake of musicality, that is an extreme amp choice tongue.gif I don't know who would be the market for such an extravagant amp that would require very careful speaker matching: very high efficiency and higher impedance or used on the top end of bi-or tri-amped speakers. For $140000, I could buy a whole lot of very high powered McIntosh or couple of Audio Research Reference amps wink.gif

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post #5764 of 10619 Old 09-23-2013, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Many (most?) people will hear a "smooth sound" if you tell them that's what they're hearing. E.g interconnect and power cord snake oil is quite successful. Placebo effects and expectation bias are very real psycho-physical contributors.

Certainly after running Audyssey, the calibrated outputs of the 4520 and a system using an 8801 should be identical, assuming the listening environment is identical. Well, to the extent that multiple runs of Audyssey produce the same result, anyhow. smile.gif

IMHO, the Marantz quotes are mostly about marketing, not actual freq response characteristics wink.gif

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post #5765 of 10619 Old 09-23-2013, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

Actually I see no issue with Marantz's strategy. Some people want a smooth sound and will pay for it. See how much Mac amps costs, and you will appreciate what D&M are trying to do...

When I went to audition my first pair of Dali speakers (Helicon 400s) they were connected to tens of thousands of $ worth of special Anniv Mac tube electronics-a stereo preamp and two monoblock amps.  Very impressive, especially considering this setup was in the owner's otherwise unassuming flooring business company office.  

 

The sound was really quite refined- yet a bit too "warm" for me. I felt I had to make an effort to hear the high end; the detail up there was nice but seemed as if it'd been rolled off a few dBs too many.  I didn't know for sure if it was the speakers or the Mac gear and I was pretty sure I wouldn't come to appreciate that degree of audiophile warmth and smoothness at home.  So I revisited for another audition, hauling along a Denon AVR 4310 to listen to in Direct mode.  Bottom line, it wasn't the speakers.  I was happy to get great speakers at a great price, and to never have to suffer upgradosis for pricey Mac tube gear. :D 

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post #5766 of 10619 Old 09-23-2013, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

Actually I see no issue with Marantz's strategy. Some people want a smooth sound and will pay for it. See how much Mac amps costs, and you will appreciate what D&M are trying to do.
The proof is in the number of amps the company sells all over the world.
Good play I say.

 

As I said, some will welcome it. I don't really understand why some people would want an amp that had been deliberately distorted to create a 'pleasant sound'. But then again, there are a lot of tube amp fans around - not to mention those who favour the distorted sound of vinyl over digital. I just want accuracy to the source so, for me, an amp used as a tone control is a big no-no.

 

Why not just buy the Denon - their objective is to create an amp that is transparent to the source. Then, if someone wants a little more warmth, á la Marantz, they can just use a tone control or a PEQ or whatever. There's absolutely no sense in 'hard wiring' distortion into an amp on purpose.

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post #5767 of 10619 Old 09-23-2013, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
 
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
 

Hi Guys,

I read (OK browsed wink.gif) this: http://www.ixbt.com/multimedia/acoustics-correction.shtml translated and got the gist of the testing.
Interesting read...and haven't people in the US been asking for this kind of comparison for years? wink.gif I'm glad someone can do it, even in Russia.

I can't argue with their conclusions because those of you who came from Pioneer and those of us current owners know what should be improved in MCACC. I do know Pioneer is working on a new version but I can't post what's been said to me.

 

Don't get me wrong - I really like Pioneer gear in general. I had a Kuro for a long time and loved it. I still have a fabulous Pioneer BD player that is used in our living room system and I love that too. It just seemed so shortsighted of them to create an automated room EQ system that doesn't EQ the subs. If the new version corrects this, then that would be a huge advantage for them IMO.

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post #5768 of 10619 Old 09-23-2013, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Many (most?) people will hear a "smooth sound" if you tell them that's what they're hearing. E.g interconnect and power cord snake oil is quite successful. Placebo effects and expectation bias are very real psycho-physical contributors.

Certainly after running Audyssey, the calibrated outputs of the 4520 and a system using an 8801 should be identical, assuming the listening environment is identical. Well, to the extent that multiple runs of Audyssey produce the same result, anyhow. smile.gif

 

That's a good point, Selden. Although it does seem a little perverse to have to use room EQ in order to 'dial out' distortions that have been deliberately introduced by the equipment maker.

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post #5769 of 10619 Old 09-23-2013, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

A bit OT, but considering the posts about Marantz amps, maybe this will be of interest.

Last issue of Stereophile has a review of Lamm tube monoblocks that cost $140,000 per pair. Yes, those are the correct zeros wink.gif and the spec is it will reach 37 watts @ 3% THD. yes, that's 3%! those that have lots of money to (ahem) waste and love euphonic distortion could be happy owners. Even Michael Fremer commented in the review that's 3 times what they consider clipping. IIRC, it hits 1% THD at around 12 watts IIRC. He does say it sounds excellent, what tube amps are about - at that price and low power to distortion ratio, I would hope it sounds heavenly.

Even for the sake of musicality, that is an extreme amp choice tongue.gif I don't know who would be the market for such an extravagant amp that would require very careful speaker matching: very high efficiency and higher impedance or used on the top end of bi-or tri-amped speakers. For $140000, I could buy a whole lot of very high powered McIntosh or couple of Audio Research Reference amps wink.gif

 

I've had tube amps. Yes, their sound is very seductive and inviting. And so long as one realises that the sound is not really what is on the disc, there's no problem.  The real issue is that eventually you have no idea what you're listening to. If the disc has a warm sound of its own, then you now have 'double warm'. If the disc is neutral you have 'warm' and if the disc has a cool sound of its own then you may have 'neutral'. But you never really know what you're listening to, other than it sounds 'pleasant'.

 

 

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post #5770 of 10619 Old 09-23-2013, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Many (most?) people will hear a "smooth sound" if you tell them that's what they're hearing. E.g interconnect and power cord snake oil is quite successful. Placebo effects and expectation bias are very real psycho-physical contributors.

Certainly after running Audyssey, the calibrated outputs of the 4520 and a system using an 8801 should be identical, assuming the listening environment is identical. Well, to the extent that multiple runs of Audyssey produce the same result, anyhow. smile.gif

IMHO, the Marantz quotes are mostly about marketing, not actual freq response characteristics wink.gif

 

If they're using engineers to help with their marketing, I’d expect to see them go out of business soon LOL.

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post #5771 of 10619 Old 09-23-2013, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

When I went to audition my first pair of Dali speakers (Helicon 400s) they were connected to tens of thousands of $ worth of special Anniv Mac tube electronics-a stereo preamp and two monoblock amps.  Very impressive, especially considering this setup was in the owner's otherwise unassuming flooring business company office.  

The sound was really quite refined- yet a bit too "warm" for me. I felt I had to make an effort to hear the high end; the detail up there was nice but seemed as if it'd been rolled off a few dBs too many.  I didn't know for sure if it was the speakers or the Mac gear and I was pretty sure I wouldn't come to appreciate that degree of audiophile warmth and smoothness at home.  So I revisited for another audition, hauling along a Denon AVR 4310 to listen to in Direct mode.  Bottom line, it wasn't the speakers.  I was happy to get great speakers at a great price, and to never have to suffer upgradosis for pricey Mac tube gear. biggrin.gif  

Hmmm...kind of reminds me of my Yamaha's YPAO Natural vs Flat. Natural is pleasing to my ears, but too rolled off in the highs. Just seems like there is too much missing. Flat sounds more detailed, though occasionally harsh. I ended up going with Front, which doesn't EQ the mains.

I wonder how different the "sound" is between Denon and Marantz after running Audessey. Shouldn't it be the same after EQ?

NHT speakers, Denon 4520, 65VT50
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post #5772 of 10619 Old 09-23-2013, 12:20 PM
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I think that amp selection will vary from person to person some people will prefer a house sound while others will prefer a completely neutral amp. Either way I don't think either is wrong in my opinion it is about what sounds good to the user. I have a vinyl rig isolated from my home theater room and I wouldn't use any of it's components for a home theater environment because it's tailored for music the way I want it to sound. Home theater I am more of a purist and want to hear the studio mix as close a possible to what is intended. I do have two sets of amps in my 2 channel room just so I can have the pure uncolored sound of solid state or the fuzzy warm sound of tubes. Funny thing is I have yet to find one person that likes the solid state sound better when I do a a/b comparison but this is with people who are not initiated in the esoteric world of the high-fi.
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post #5773 of 10619 Old 09-23-2013, 12:33 PM
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^@mnc

That's a reasonable expectation, as put forth in Seldon in his post above.  The theory being that if there is some intentional "smoothing"/roll-off of the highs, for ex., at any stage (preamp or amp) in the AVP, it will be "heard" by Audyssey as it comes out of the speakers and will be at least potentially partially compensated for as Audyssey attempts to match its own target curve. But perhaps not completely...

 

and in addition, to the extent that with Marantz' HDAM, better analog stage, whatever, etc., MAY actually be more accurate, less distorted, "closer to the music" and hence more musical, there may be improved (not "distorted") SQ.  That benefit will likely be most evident in Direct mode but potentially audible even with Audyssey applied.  Many audiophiles shunned Audyssey because  XT would often take a bit of a toll on fine detail and imaging. Now XT32 seems to be much improved in many areas over XT and doesn't really seem to have an audible deleterious effect on the high end to my ears. 

 

I was able to hear a bit of that XT-related SQ loss with my AVRs 2809 and 4310 (XT) with Audyssey engaged and that prompted me to explore a dedicated HT bypass preamp for high quality stereo recording listening with no DSP RC.   Problem was, it was not really enjoyable trying to "listen through" the room's bloated bass to hear those delicate cymbal decays, subtle room ambiance on vocals, etc.  Not keeping a high-end audiophile preamp saved me $ which I promptly spent on an Audyssey Pro kit.  Now that's best of both worlds IMO-a nice step up in detail AND accuracy.


Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #5774 of 10619 Old 09-23-2013, 08:59 PM
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As soon as I powered on my Denon 4520 today, I received a firmware update notification. I checked the Denon USA website but couldn't find any info. Did anyone else receive this update yet and any release notes what the update does ? my avr is just working fine and don't want to mess around with it smile.gif
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post #5775 of 10619 Old 09-23-2013, 09:24 PM
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As soon as I powered on my Denon 4520 today, I received a firmware update notification. I checked the Denon USA website but couldn't find any info. Did anyone else receive this update yet and any release notes what the update does ? my avr is just working fine and don't want to mess around with it smile.gif

JD maintains a log of firmware updates in post #4 of this thread. You can see what has been updated with this release.
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post #5776 of 10619 Old 09-24-2013, 05:01 AM
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I am as everyone says a NOOB in all of the HT area, but I do know what I like. After years of struggling I am finally able to look at options I have not otherwise thought of. One of these options is the 4520 or the x4000.

Background info:
Room = 13.5 wide x 18 long x 8 high
Use 99% HT.
TV = 80
Seating distance = 9.5 ft
Speakers = Ascend 340 LCR and 4-170's
Sub(s) = Is being decided on yet

What I am striving for:
Total immersion into a movie.

What I am thinking of:
A 9.2 system but this is where the question comes in of either the 4520 or x4000. Not really sure if the extra top fronts will bring or add anymore realism or immersion. If not then a 7.2 system will be fine. I have very limited amount of space for adding an amp for the x4000 as I think some will suggest, if I latter did want 9.2. So 1 avr and no amps.
Which will give me the better feeling of what I am looking for and is the extra money for the 4520 worth the added dimension for the 9.2?

Tux's Elusive 1099 (L/C/R)---Ascend CBM-170 SE (surrounds 9.2)---SVS PB 12 Plus---SVS PC 12 Plus---2 DIY 18's sealed--AVR Denon 4520CI---TV Vizio 70---110" Motorized Screen---Epson 8350 Projector---Unraid 32TB Network Storage---Gateway SX 2370 HTPC with 120 SSD
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post #5777 of 10619 Old 09-24-2013, 06:26 AM
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^^
Many with a 7.1 or 9.2 setup generally find that the Front Wide speakers (using DSX(Wide) or DTS Neo:X) provide for a more enveloping surround vs. using Front Height speakers. Also you can use a smaller 2CH amp to power the surround back speakers to expand the X4000 from 7.2 to 9.2 which would not require much power. The amp linked below has a smaller footprint and should suffice.

http://www.amazon.com/AudioSource-AMP-100-Stereo-Power-Amplifier/dp/B00026BQJ6

Determine whether you can find an amp that will fit in the available space, otherwise, the 4520CI would be your best bet.

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post #5778 of 10619 Old 09-24-2013, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post

I wonder how different the "sound" is between Denon and Marantz after running Audessey. Shouldn't it be the same after EQ?

 

I’d say "more similar" rather than "the same".

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post #5779 of 10619 Old 09-24-2013, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post
 

Many audiophiles shunned Audyssey because  XT would often take a bit of a toll on fine detail and imaging. 

 

They did. And many of them had totally untreated rooms too. So the +/- 20dB swings in FR didn't bother them at all, but hey, that toll on fine detail, well, that was just unacceptable. LOL.

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post #5780 of 10619 Old 09-24-2013, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
Many with a 7.1 or 9.2 setup generally find that the Front Wide speakers (using DSX(Wide) or DTS Neo:X) provide for a more enveloping surround vs. using Front Height speakers. Also you can use a smaller 2CH amp to power the surround back speakers to expand the X4000 from 7.2 to 9.2 which would not require much power. The amp linked below has a smaller footprint and should suffice.

http://www.amazon.com/AudioSource-AMP-100-Stereo-Power-Amplifier/dp/B00026BQJ6

Determine whether you can find an amp that will fit in the available space, otherwise, the 4520CI would be your best bet.

Thank you for that. I will be measuring the area to try and get the x4000 in.

Tux's Elusive 1099 (L/C/R)---Ascend CBM-170 SE (surrounds 9.2)---SVS PB 12 Plus---SVS PC 12 Plus---2 DIY 18's sealed--AVR Denon 4520CI---TV Vizio 70---110" Motorized Screen---Epson 8350 Projector---Unraid 32TB Network Storage---Gateway SX 2370 HTPC with 120 SSD
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post #5781 of 10619 Old 09-24-2013, 09:44 AM
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What I am striving for:
Total immersion into a movie.

What I am thinking of:
A 9.2 system but this is where the question comes in of either the 4520 or x4000. Not really sure if the extra top fronts will bring or add anymore realism or immersion. If not then a 7.2 system will be fine. I have very limited amount of space for adding an amp for the x4000 as I think some will suggest, if I latter did want 9.2. So 1 avr and no amps.
Which will give me the better feeling of what I am looking for and is the extra money for the 4520 worth the added dimension for the 9.2?

I replaced my 4310 with a 4520, and added wide speakers ( I was running a 7.1 system ) for a 9.1 setup. That made a noticable improvement in the sound field and added more immersion during movies for sure. Then I got some smaller speakers for heights and a 2 channel amp, for a 11.1 setup. It's even better. Go the full monte - 11.1 using NEO:X sounds outstanding. I just need my 2nd subwoofer now................... smile.gif

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post #5782 of 10619 Old 09-24-2013, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCRSS View Post

I am as everyone says a NOOB in all of the HT area, but I do know what I like. After years of struggling I am finally able to look at options I have not otherwise thought of. One of these options is the 4520 or the x4000.

Background info:
Room = 13.5 wide x 18 long x 8 high
Use 99% HT.
TV = 80
Seating distance = 9.5 ft
Speakers = Ascend 340 LCR and 4-170's
Sub(s) = Is being decided on yet

What I am striving for:
Total immersion into a movie.

What I am thinking of:
A 9.2 system but this is where the question comes in of either the 4520 or x4000. Not really sure if the extra top fronts will bring or add anymore realism or immersion. If not then a 7.2 system will be fine. I have very limited amount of space for adding an amp for the x4000 as I think some will suggest, if I latter did want 9.2. So 1 avr and no amps.
Which will give me the better feeling of what I am looking for and is the extra money for the 4520 worth the added dimension for the 9.2?

The good news is that your room is small and your speakers are easy to drive (8 ohm / 90db) so you don't have to worry about amp power. The 4520 or X4000 will easily be able to drive your speakers to ear crushing volume in that space without internal amps. So just make a decision on overall feature set. The X4000 has better digital zone functionality but if you don't need other zones and you are willing to pay extra to have it all in one box then the 4520 will do great. Obviously budget can be a factor as an X4000 plus an inexpensive 2ch amp will still be quite a bit cheaper. But either one will give you awesome sound.

More speakers will give you more immersion, so if that's your goal and you can go up to 9ch then go for it.

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post #5783 of 10619 Old 09-24-2013, 10:11 PM
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Thank you all for the responds. I think the route I will go is get the 4520 and go for 9.1 to start. The sub I have decided on is the VTF 15H. Question I wondering about is that I would like to keep all Ascends, but would the wides have to match the 340's or could I use 170's? I even toying with the idea of the Sierra towers for the wides. Just out of curiosity sake and also for future reference lets say I added the towers and added 2 VTF 15 subs for the total of 9.2, would the 4520 still be have enough power to run them all without adding an amp?

Tux's Elusive 1099 (L/C/R)---Ascend CBM-170 SE (surrounds 9.2)---SVS PB 12 Plus---SVS PC 12 Plus---2 DIY 18's sealed--AVR Denon 4520CI---TV Vizio 70---110" Motorized Screen---Epson 8350 Projector---Unraid 32TB Network Storage---Gateway SX 2370 HTPC with 120 SSD
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post #5784 of 10619 Old 09-24-2013, 10:27 PM
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For most domestic settings with regular HT setups, the 4520's amps will suffice.

You will have issues if you are trying to run 2 or 4 ohm designs FULL RANGE, ALL CHANNELs driven, in a barn the size of Kansas.... if you have such a setup then simply add the appropriate power amps.
Emotivas are very popular, simple and well priced and will suit most modestly priced setups too.
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post #5785 of 10619 Old 09-24-2013, 10:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Again in a room that small you will have no problems with internal amps.

The wides should be a tonal match for the fronts. Doesn't have to be exactly the same model but should be from the same line and/or manufacturer. I'm sure any Ascend model will work, but I have no idea why you'd put Sierras as wides, they are higher end models than the 340s! If you splurged on Sierra towers they should be your mains.

Two VTF-15s might make a room that small explode biggrin.gif

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post #5786 of 10619 Old 09-25-2013, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by BCRSS View Post

Thank you all for the responds. I think the route I will go is get the 4520 and go for 9.1 to start. The sub I have decided on is the VTF 15H. Question I wondering about is that I would like to keep all Ascends, but would the wides have to match the 340's or could I use 170's? I even toying with the idea of the Sierra towers for the wides. Just out of curiosity sake and also for future reference lets say I added the towers and added 2 VTF 15 subs for the total of 9.2, would the 4520 still be have enough power to run them all without adding an amp?

As batpig suggested, using timbre-matched smaller less-capable bookshelf speakers from the same OEM is a great way to go for wides and htz.   I used little Dalis (he-he) did this to complement my FR/L Dali towers and it sounds great.  Capable subs and the excellent bass management and EQ of XT32 make using towers superfluous (though they can be really nice in FR/L if stereo music critical listening is a passion of yours). The Ascend folks should be helpful in designing your surround system.

 

Of course the subs draw no power from the 4520 amps so you can add subs with impunity.  Like heads, two subs is better than one-especially if you subcrawl place them for smoothest bass.  I am not familiar with the Hsu line but I'd contact them with your room dimensions as its quite likely two of their smaller subs would be less costly and more than sufficient to vibrate you right out of your seat. :) 


Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #5787 of 10619 Old 09-25-2013, 07:24 AM
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Oh man, now you guys have me so stoked, like a bull waiting to get into the heifer barn, I can barely wait to get this all complete.

Batpig, I did really mean to say use the Sierra for L&R but was dreaming in my head as how all the speakers would look as I sit and type.

I was hesitant to post here as I am not well acquainted with speakers, receivers, subs and the whole audio genre per se, and afraid of the backlash for being so, and posting a stupid question that probably had been answered many times before. But everyone of you have been so very helpful, polite and genuine. The reviews on products are great and helped me understand to what I would be looking for and for what price ranges. As I said before I am a total Noob on audio but I know what my ears want to hear.

I will be contacting HSU and Ascend for their recommendations on subs and the other speakers I will need.

Once again THANKS for putting my mind at ease on this purchase and once this is complete and you are ever in TX and want a beer and listen to it. Let me know.

Tux's Elusive 1099 (L/C/R)---Ascend CBM-170 SE (surrounds 9.2)---SVS PB 12 Plus---SVS PC 12 Plus---2 DIY 18's sealed--AVR Denon 4520CI---TV Vizio 70---110" Motorized Screen---Epson 8350 Projector---Unraid 32TB Network Storage---Gateway SX 2370 HTPC with 120 SSD
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post #5788 of 10619 Old 09-25-2013, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

  I used little Dalis (he-he) did this to complement my FR/L Dali towers and it sounds great. 

Honestly, SOM, sometimes I think you chose the Dali's not so much because of their excellent sound, but because they give you the opportunity to have a little humor! tongue.gif
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post #5789 of 10619 Old 09-25-2013, 09:30 AM
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^LOL

I just can't help myself.


Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #5790 of 10619 Old 09-25-2013, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
What I am striving for:
Total immersion into a movie.

What I am thinking of:
A 9.2 system but this is where the question comes in of either the 4520 or x4000. Not really sure if the extra top fronts will bring or add anymore realism or immersion. If not then a 7.2 system will be fine. I have very limited amount of space for adding an amp for the x4000 as I think some will suggest, if I latter did want 9.2. So 1 avr and no amps.
Which will give me the better feeling of what I am looking for and is the extra money for the 4520 worth the added dimension for the 9.2?

I replaced my 4310 with a 4520, and added wide speakers ( I was running a 7.1 system ) for a 9.1 setup. That made a noticable improvement in the sound field and added more immersion during movies for sure. Then I got some smaller speakers for heights and a 2 channel amp, for a 11.1 setup. It's even better. Go the full monte - 11.1 using NEO:X sounds outstanding. I just need my 2nd subwoofer now................... smile.gif

+1 on the full monte, 11.1 + NeoX.

Craig - with the package deals that Parts Express is offering with DIY subwoofer flat pack + driver what's holding you back from that 2nd and 3rd sub?? (via our own DIY Sound Group gang)
http://www.parts-express.com/term/new_knock_down_subwoofer_cabinets
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