The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 196 - AVS Forum
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post #5851 of 9174 Old 10-03-2013, 05:52 PM
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^

Are you sure? It's sure hard to tell from a photo at that angle with no measurements. 

 

I went to the store and bought a cheap protractor to guide my speaker placement.  But f you don't have a protractor handy you can construct a guide in a matter of minutes:

 

Make a right triangle using a std 8.5X11 piece of paper. The bottom is side a=8.5".  Measure 5" up the L side of the paper from the bottom L corner (labelled C) and mark the point at A (that makes side b=5").  Draw a line (labelled c below) from point A down to the R bottom corner at B.  Angle A is now exactly 60 degrees. 

 

Then sit in MLP and orient the triangle so side b is the centerline, with point A pointing at you and point C pointing at the spot on the wall right under your CC and 1/2 way between your FR and FL speakers.  Place the laser pointer (or simply sight) along side c and have someone place a bit of masking tape on the L wall where line c intersects the wall. That's just about where the L wide should go. 

 

Measure from the front wall back to that spot on the L wall and use that same distance back from the front wall on the R wall for your R wide.

 

Right Triangle Calculator 


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post #5852 of 9174 Old 10-03-2013, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Schmidt View Post

what would be the downside yo having both wides and heights at 60%? The reason I ask is because my heights are already mounted at 60%.

Based on the picture you provided, it sure doesn't look like your heights are at 60 degrees. Regardless, based on the fact that they are already mounted in that nice woodwork, they probably are not going to move anytime soon. It is very difficult without a picture of the side walls to determine where you might place the wides. If the door on the right is in the middle of the 60 degree angle, that could be a problem. Can you show us a few more pictures of the side walls? And perhaps use SoundOfMind's technique to determine the actual angle of the heights?
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post #5853 of 9174 Old 10-03-2013, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Are you sure? It's sure hard to tell from a photo at that angle with no measurements. 

I went to the store and bought a cheap protractor to guide my speaker placement.  But f you don't have a protractor handy you can construct a guide in a matter of minutes:

Make a right triangle using a std 8.5X11 piece of paper. The bottom is side a=8.5".  Measure 5" up the L side of the paper from the bottom L corner (labelled C) and mark the point at A (that makes side b=5").  Draw a line (labelled c below) from point A down to the R bottom corner at B.  Angle A is now exactly 60 degrees. 

Then sit in MLP and orient the triangle so side b is the centerline, with point A pointing at you and point C pointing at the spot on the wall right under your CC and 1/2 way between your FR and FL speakers.  Place the laser pointer (or simply sight) along side c and have someone place a bit of masking tape on the L wall where line c intersects the wall. That's just about where the L wide should go. 

Measure from the front wall back to that spot on the L wall and use that same distance back from the front wall on the R wall for your R wide.

Right Triangle Calculator
 
can that left wide speaker face into the middle of the room instead of facing the rear of the room? I am using Klipsch inwalls with tweeters that pivot...

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post #5854 of 9174 Old 10-03-2013, 06:59 PM
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Ideally, the wides should point towards the MLP. Can the tweeters pivot that far? If yes, then no problem. If not, then it depends on the dispersion characteristics of the tweeters off-axis.
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post #5855 of 9174 Old 10-03-2013, 07:18 PM
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If the Aim-able tweeters adjust to about 30 degrees off perpendicular you should be fine as that will aim at main listening position with a flush mount install at 60 degrees off centerline. If not then you can consider modifying the install by shimming the front wall end of the speaker off the side wall a bit.

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post #5856 of 9174 Old 10-03-2013, 07:19 PM
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post #5857 of 9174 Old 10-03-2013, 07:45 PM
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Nice pics of the room, but who is that clown with the balloons? tongue.gif

Now let's see where on the side walls a 60 degree angle from the MLP falls.
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post #5858 of 9174 Old 10-03-2013, 08:03 PM
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I think that based on the constraints of the R wall doors and alcove, the R wide speaker will end up as close to the front wall as you can get it, mounted in the alcove.  The R wides distance back from the front wall will determine the distance back from the front wall for the L wall wide placement.  My guess is that will be somewhere in the vicinity of Princess Leia- unless that clown on the centerline is using jedi mind tricks. 

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post #5859 of 9174 Old 10-03-2013, 08:10 PM
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Thank you both for the helpful input... The clown's name is Audyssey. biggrin.gif

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post #5860 of 9174 Old 10-04-2013, 02:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Schmidt View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

SoM has given you a full response wrt to Audyssey DSX wides.  For information on wide speaker placement for DTS Neo:X, take a look at the attached document.

DTS_NeoX_White_Paper.pdf 657k .pdf file  

(I am making an assumption that Denons have DTS Neo:X)
Thank you very much, but it looks like the diagram you attached has different placement for the heighs and wides compared to the diagram SoundofMind shows...

 

Of course - one is a placement guide for Audyssey DSX and the other is a placement guide for DTS Neo:X.

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post #5861 of 9174 Old 10-04-2013, 02:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Funny to read some quotes in that whitepaper....
Quote:
the audio listening experience can be significantly improved by adding more sound sources with proper steering of directional cues. This is especially true when audio sources are positioned in front of, compared to behind, the listener.

This directly corroborates Audyssey's philosophy of "more in front" being needed due to our increased hearing directional sensitivity in the frontal hemisphere... but....
 
Quote:
A few systems already exist with Front-Height or Wide speakers for home theater. None, however, currently enable
discrete content that channels realistic sound cues to another plane in the soundstage - even when audio is mixed
specifically for these speakers. Most systems simply duplicate front left and right channel content. This can result in
unnatural audio imaging, where musical instruments are heard in strange locations and/or shift location from one speaker
to another.

ZING! A direct shot across the bow at DSX.

 

:)  Yes I spotted that too. They are right when they say "Most systems simply duplicate front left and right channel content." - if I turn off the amps for all the speakers other than the Heights, with DSX it sounds like they just took the R & L speaker info and copied it to the Height channels, but not as loud. IDK about Wides because I don't have them but I have read similar suggestions. 

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post #5862 of 9174 Old 10-04-2013, 02:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post
 

^^batpig, that's EXACTLY what I experience when I engage dsx wides for music.I only use them for film and they're great for that.

 

So, SoM, you're saying that when sounds "are heard in strange locations and/or shift location from one speaker to another" it doesn't matter with movies if some sounds just, well, come from entirely the wrong place?  I'm just teasing you really, buddy.... :)  Have you tried DTS Neo:X?  I find that far preferable to DSX (although remember I only have Heights).

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post #5863 of 9174 Old 10-04-2013, 02:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post
 
^

Are you sure? It's sure hard to tell from a photo at that angle with no measurements. 

 

I went to the store and bought a cheap protractor to guide my speaker placement.  But f you don't have a protractor handy you can construct a guide in a matter of minutes:

 

Make a right triangle using a std 8.5X11 piece of paper. The bottom is side a=8.5".  Measure 5" up the L side of the paper from the bottom L corner (labelled C) and mark the point at A (that makes side b=5").  Draw a line (labelled c below) from point A down to the R bottom corner at B.  Angle A is now exactly 60 degrees. 

 

Then sit in MLP and orient the triangle so side b is the centerline, with point A pointing at you and point C pointing at the spot on the wall right under your CC and 1/2 way between your FR and FL speakers.  Place the laser pointer (or simply sight) along side c and have someone place a bit of masking tape on the L wall where line c intersects the wall. That's just about where the L wide should go. 

 

Measure from the front wall back to that spot on the L wall and use that same distance back from the front wall on the R wall for your R wide.

 

Right Triangle Calculator 

 

Side a = 8.5" and side b = 5"?  Is that right?  In the diagram it looks to be the other way around with b longer than a? And you say the bottom L corner is C but it's the bottom right. I was hopeless at geometry at school so ICEBW, but would you clarify it for me please?

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post #5864 of 9174 Old 10-04-2013, 02:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Schmidt View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Not exactly true. Both systems recommend Front Wide placement at 60 degrees. The only difference is that the Front Height recommendation is 45 degrees off center for DSX, but only 30 degrees off center (directly above the front L/R mains) for Neo:X. From what I can see Neo:X doesn't specify an elevational angle, although it can be presumed that the effect will be more pronounced the more vertical separation you are able to achieve from the front L/R mains.

quoting from the DTS paper with my bolding:
what would be the downside yo having both wides and heights at 60%? The reason I ask is because my heights are already mounted at 60%.

 

Probably less than you think. I think that Audyssey overhype the importance of these angles wrt to Height and Wide speakers, based on actual listening experiences posted in the Audyssey thread. Getting as close as you can is probably good enough. As DSX isn’t concerned with discrete content, I believe the placement of these speakers is nowhere near as critical as it is for a regular 7.1 system where content is mixed discretely for the channels. Even in the last few posts here, SoM has remarked how DSX wides put instruments in the wrong place for music and create other undesirable effects. As someone who sees no distinction between playing music on the system and playing a movie (the system doesn't 'know' what it's playing) on the system, this would make me believe that the undesirable effects also translate to movies, but are perhaps less self-evident. I find PLIIz and Neo:X to be much more preferable for Heights, of which I have direct experience. Bottom line: this is all preference land, so experiment and see which arrangement and which DSP you prefer.

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post #5865 of 9174 Old 10-04-2013, 03:14 AM
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post #5866 of 9174 Old 10-04-2013, 03:21 AM
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Ah yes. I went to school in the 60's so we had:

 

Some Old Hippy Caught Another Hippy Tripping on Acid  :D

 

I still never got it right though. And I still don't understand SoM's diagram!

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post #5867 of 9174 Old 10-04-2013, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Memories of junior high...1976

Some old hen

Caught a hen

Taking old apples



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Ah yes. I went to school in the 60's so we had:

Some Old Hippy Caught Another Hippy Tripping on Acid  biggrin.gif

I still never got it right though. And I still don't understand SoM's diagram!

Then this calculus based method might make more sense...rolleyes.gif
http://www.understandingcalculus.com/chapters/18/18-1.php
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post #5868 of 9174 Old 10-04-2013, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Memories of junior high...1976

Some old hen

Caught a hen

Taking old apples



Sent from my iPad2 64GB using Tapatalk

Ah yes. I went to school in the 60's so we had:

Some Old Hippy Caught Another Hippy Tripping on Acid  biggrin.gif

I still never got it right though. And I still don't understand SoM's diagram!

Then this calculus based method might make more sense...rolleyes.gif
http://www.understandingcalculus.com/chapters/18/18-1.php

 

OMG.

 

I read that and I thought "At this point is important to stop thinking about angles, degrees, and triangles. What is essential now are circles and arc lengths measured in radians. The Sine function, mathematically speaking is then just the function which gives the corresponding x value of an arc length measured from to 0 to x on the circle."  biggrin.gif

 

I commend my method to the forum: I look at where the speaker is and I say "yeah, that's about 60 degrees" :D  (These latest OCD meds are wonderful!)

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post #5869 of 9174 Old 10-04-2013, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View PostSo, SoM, you're saying that when sounds "are heard in strange locations and/or shift location from one speaker to another" it doesn't matter with movies if some sounds just, well, come from entirely the wrong place?  I'm just teasing you really, buddy.... :)  Have you tried DTS Neo:X?  I find that far preferable to DSX (although remember I only have Heights).

I only have Neo:6 in my A100/4311 and I rarely use it.  I really do  like the DSX wides for film.  Some time ago FilmMixer posted that he detects subtle shifts with the wides engaged, but geeze, they're his mixes so he knows exactly what he intended and what to listen for.  Though I've tried careful A/B listening for disturbing shifts I cannot detect them.  To me, the wides very effectively open up the soundstage width-and depth- to the front.  It's as though my room was larger, in fact often the walls and speakers virtually disappear.  For music, DSX wides aim to provide the effect of sitting in a fine large concert hall listening to acoustic/orchestral music.  But I don't listen to that genre much. In contrast most native MC music that I listen to is recorded in a studio and sounds fab in 5.2.  When I engage the DSX wides it seems to mess it up more than adding anything so I don't bother.

 

Have I tried htz? Nope. For reasons unique to me & my gear I'm  just not all that motivated to do so.  For ex., my FR/L towers are massive and have the midrange drivers located above the tweets-IOW they're slightly above my ears! And the angle of the cathedral ceiling to the front forms a kind of bandshell.  I imagine that the sound reflecting down towards MLP may well be generating a bit of a htz effect. Since the system already sounds fab I'll prob wait for the next breakthrough in surround technology.

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post #5870 of 9174 Old 10-04-2013, 04:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View PostSide a = 8.5" and side b = 5"?  Is that right?  In the diagram it looks to be the other way around with b longer than a? And you say the bottom L corner is C but it's the bottom right. I was hopeless at geometry at school so ICEBW, but would you clarify it for me please?

Hey, I'm no math wiz either. Speaker placement is far easier with a protractor and laser pointer!

 

I simply grabbed that right triangle off a triangle calculator site so yes the proportions on the sides are incorrect.  One has to  redraw the triangle following the directions-that is, if you don't have anything better to do!  :D

 

That said, exact placement of wides is unnecessary-Audyssey recommends they be from 50-70 degrees off centerline. And I recommend that the OP endeavor to place them symmetrically irt distance from the front wall.


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post #5871 of 9174 Old 10-04-2013, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View PostSo, SoM, you're saying that when sounds "are heard in strange locations and/or shift location from one speaker to another" it doesn't matter with movies if some sounds just, well, come from entirely the wrong place?  I'm just teasing you really, buddy.... :)  Have you tried DTS Neo:X?  I find that far preferable to DSX (although remember I only have Heights).

I only have Neo:6 in my A100/4311 and I rarely use it.  I really do  like the DSX wides for film.  Some time ago FilmMixer posted that he detects subtle shifts with the wides engaged, but geeze, they're his mixes so he knows exactly what he intended and what to listen for.  Though I've tried careful A/B listening for disturbing shifts I cannot detect them.  To me, the wides very effectively open up the soundstage width-and depth- to the front.  It's as though my room was larger, in fact often the walls and speakers virtually disappear.  For music, DSX wides aim to provide the effect of sitting in a fine large concert hall listening to acoustic/orchestral music.  But I don't listen to that genre much. In contrast most native MC music that I listen to is recorded in a studio and sounds fab in 5.2.  When I engage the DSX wides it seems to mess it up more than adding anything so I don't bother.

 

Have I tried htz? Nope. For reasons unique to me & my gear I'm  just not all that motivated to do so.  For ex., my FR/L towers are massive and have the midrange drivers located above the tweets-IOW they're slightly above my ears! And the angle of the cathedral ceiling to the front forms a kind of bandshell.  I imagine that the sound reflecting down towards MLP may well be generating a bit of a htz effect. Since the system already sounds fab I'll prob wait for the next breakthrough in surround technology.

 

Thanks - can't beat hands-on experience. Everyone seems to have a different view and a different experience of wides and heights, which is as it should be for what is essentially a preference issue I guess. I have the opposite situation to yours - no room for wides but I can easily accommodate heights.

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post #5872 of 9174 Old 10-04-2013, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View PostSide a = 8.5" and side b = 5"?  Is that right?  In the diagram it looks to be the other way around with b longer than a? And you say the bottom L corner is C but it's the bottom right. I was hopeless at geometry at school so ICEBW, but would you clarify it for me please?

Hey, I'm no math wiz either. Speaker placement is far easier with a protractor and laser pointer!

 

I simply grabbed that right triangle off a triangle calculator site so yes the proportions on the sides are incorrect.  One has to  redraw the triangle following the directions-that is, if you don't have anything better to do!  :D

 

That said, exact placement of wides is unnecessary-Audyssey recommends they be from 50-70 degrees off centerline. And I recommend that the OP endeavor to place them symmetrically irt distance from the front wall.

 

:)  I agree. 

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post #5873 of 9174 Old 10-04-2013, 05:45 AM
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FWIW, here is the worksheet that I use to calculate the speaker angles, along with the formulas.

 

Speaker Angle Calculator.pdf 297k .pdf file

 

The angles listed in the worksheet are the angles I currently have in my setup.  They are not exactly the recommended 30, 45, and 60 degree angles, but are the angles I can achieve, given the layout of my listening room.  The angles could be increased by moving the MLP closer to the front of the room, but moving the MLP has an impact on other audio characteristics, including frequency response and modal decay.  What I have represents the best compromise, given the room.

 

The point of my post is to support the argument that you can achieve good results from heights and wides without the exact angles specified in the Audyssey and DTS guides.

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post #5874 of 9174 Old 10-04-2013, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 

FWIW, here is the worksheet that I use to calculate the speaker angles, along with the formulas.

 

Speaker Angle Calculator.pdf 297k .pdf file

 

The angles listed in the worksheet are the angles I currently have in my setup.  They are not exactly the recommended 30, 45, and 60 degree angles, but are the angles I can achieve, given the layout of my listening room.  The angles could be increased by moving the MLP closer to the front of the room, but moving the MLP has an impact on other audio characteristics, including frequency response and modal decay.  What I have represents the best compromise, given the room.

 

The point of my post is to support the argument that you can achieve good results from heights and wides without the exact angles specified in the Audyssey and DTS guides.

 

Jerry, do you have the actual Excel spreadsheet for public offering?  The one that would include the formulae for things like 

 

"Calculated as =DEGREES(ACOS((((C24*C24)+(C25*C25))-(C23*C23))/(2*C24*C25))) "

 

I'm sure it would be very useful to innumerates such as myself if we could just plug in our own distances and have the angles etc calculated for us?  Just a thought... if you  don't care to publish it, no worries. 

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post #5875 of 9174 Old 10-04-2013, 05:58 AM
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After measuring 60%... That would put the wides on the front wall. My front wall is 20' wide exactly.

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And here I thought that my formulas were exactly the same way that you were calculating the angles, Keith!  ;)

 

Here it is:

 

Speaker Angle Calculator.zip 10k .zip file

 

Edit:  Do and internet search on "how to find angle given two sides of a triangle" if you want to check my trigonometry.

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Originally Posted by Randy Schmidt View Post

After measuring 60%... That would put the wides on the front wall. My front wall is 20' wide exactly.

 

 

How far from the 20' front wall is your MLP?

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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 

And here I thought that my formulas were exactly the same way that you were calculating the angles, Keith!  ;)

 

Here it is:

 

Speaker Angle Calculator.zip 10k .zip file

 

Edit:  Do and internet search on "how to find angle given two sides of a triangle" if you want to check my trigonometry.

 

LOL. Not quite the same as my method.... :)  Thanks, Jerry.

 

I wouldn't presume to question your trigonometry!!

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How far from the 20' front wall is your MLP?
13 1/2 feet. My front L/R's are 183" apart. My front Heights are 225" apart.

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^OK, that's useful data. 

Using the calculator I referenced   http://www.csgnetwork.com/righttricalc.html

here's how I'd use it:

point A=MLP, b=the centerline and a is the front wall from the centerline to the L side front corner at B.

enter b=13.5 and angle A=60.  Hit calculate and it tells you that to correctly place a wide speaker on the front wall it would have to be 23' ("a") from the centerline to be at 60 degrees.

Clear values, reenter b=13.5.  Enter the highest possible value in your room (1/2 X20)=10' as "a".

Hit calculate and it tells you that if you stuck the wide speaker on the front wall right against the side wall it would be at about 35 degrees.

 

So the wides have to go on the side wall.  Where exactly on the side wall is trickier to calculate, it's  far easier to just shoot the wide speaker position with a protractor rather than to calculate it.

 

(but the answer is that at 91" back from the front wall on the side wall is 60 degrees off centerline).


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