The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 214 - AVS Forum
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post #6391 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

I was doing a max reading from listening position of 10hz, 20hz, and 30hz just to see what my sub was outputting just to get an idea before my 2nd one comes in smile.gif i just didnt realize that when i do that my other speakers have been also playing the same frequencies.
Well that explains why you are getting the test sweeps out of your mains. So what subs do you have?

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post #6392 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 06:15 AM
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Quick question: Just order the 3313UD (The bluray/network player from Denon).
I'm going to connect it of course through the HD link. Does anyone have it? Impressions?

Thanks!

11.2 Audiophile/HT use : Denon 4520 | Emotiva XPA5 Gen2 | Dunlavy SC-IV | Dunlavy SC I CC | Tannoy DC2 | B&W M1 | Yamaha SB | Velodyne 18 SG | Phono Denon PF300 | Denon BPT 3313 UI | PS3 | JVC 3D RS46U PRO | 120'' Dalite | Toshiba 47'' Cinema | Tivo 4 | Windows 2012 Media Server | XBMC PC |...
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post #6393 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by emperorphobos View Post

Quick question: Just order the 3313UD (The bluray/network player from Denon).
I'm going to connect it of course through the HD link. Does anyone have it? Impressions?

Thanks!

There is a thread about it in the blu ray section. I looked through it because I got one with my 4520 purchase. I didn't need it, but I took it anyway because I am not going to turn down a free nice blu ray player like that. Sold it on CL and got some of my money back for the 4520 purchase.

Here is the thread.
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post #6394 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 06:32 AM
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Thank you Pain!

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post #6395 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post

Well that explains why you are getting the test sweeps out of your mains. So what subs do you have?



I've got a PSA Triax subwoofer, it just came out. I've got a 2nd Triax coming tomorrow so I'll finally have a dual setup, 500lbs and 16,000 watts of subs. Should turn out insane biggrin.gif




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post #6396 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 11:03 AM
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Wow! eek.gif

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post #6397 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

When the BDP "HD Audio Mode" is set to "Mix Audio Output", the HD audio is decoded in the BDP and then passed to the 4520CI as mulit channel PCM at which point the 4520CI display should read "Multi CH IN" as there is no further decoding required and play as 5.1 or 7.1 depending on your setup and surround mode selected. What surround mode is displayed?


Wait so while I have the bluray player set PCM, all I have to do is set the receiver to multi ch in and this would allow the BDP to play through the speakers as Dolby True HD?

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post #6398 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 11:06 AM
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The 4520CI will automatically switch to MULTI CH IN and regardless of whether the BDP does the decoding to PCM or the BDP sends the bitstream audio for the 4520CI to decode it, you're still getting the same lossless HD audio.
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post #6399 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Wow! eek.gif

Check out my video clips on my signature, that's just showing what one of them is doing to my room. The 2nd one coming tomorrow should be fun to watch biggrin.gif

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post #6400 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The 4520CI will automatically switch to MULTI CH IN and regardless of whether the BDP does the decoding to PCM or the BDP sends the bitstream audio for the 4520CI to decode it, you're still getting the same lossless HD audio.

I just have to let the BDP decode the Dolby True HD blueray movies because the 4520ci clips if set to bitstream. I always thought multi ch in was like for music playback, I didn't realize it was also for when the blueray is doing the decoding.

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post #6401 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llep64 View Post

has anybody compared the Marantz 7008 side by side with this unit? ... my main concern is for music .Thanks.

I am also interested in the differences between the two. I have NHT speakers rated at 87dB efficiency and wonder if the extra power of the 4520 would help or not.

Indecision may or may not be my problem.
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post #6402 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 11:22 AM
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DD and DTS are simply compression techniques so when the DD/DTS compressed signal is "bitstreamed" to the AVR ... the AVR can detect which is being used and then uses the appropriate decoder to "decompress" the audio to the lossless PCM file. If the BDP does the decompressing to PCM, the AVR simply sees the audio as a signal made up of discrete channels and has no clue what original compression technique was used and therefore can only display "MULTI CH IN". smile.gif

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post #6403 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post

I am also interested in the differences between the two. I have NHT speakers rated at 87dB efficiency and wonder if the extra power of the 4520 would help or not.

Help in what respect? Do you listen at reference level (0db) and if yes, are your speakers clipping at that volume causing you to back the volume down? If yes, the 4520CI would help. If no, either would work just fine.

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post #6404 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by llep64 View Post

has anybody compared the Marantz 7008 side by side with this unit? ... my main concern is for music .Thanks.

I am also interested in the differences between the two. I have NHT speakers rated at 87dB efficiency and wonder if the extra power of the 4520 would help or not.

 

What extra power?  The Denon is rated at 150 wpc (2 channels driven 8 ohm) and the Marantz at 125 watts (2 channels driven 8 ohm). For all intents and purposes that is the same. You need to double the wattage to get a 3dB increase in loudness, so you'd have to go to at least 250 watts to make any significant difference over the Marantz. The difference between 150 and 125 watts is a fraction of one deciBel. 

 

Specs on official sites here:

 

http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=avreceivers&ProductId=SR7008

 

http://www.denon.co.uk/uk/product/pages/product-detail.aspx?catid=hometheatre&subid=avreceivers&productid=avr4520

 

The big difference between those two units is that the Marantz has Audyssey XT and the Denon has the vastly superior Audyssey XT32. That's where you'll find the difference in sound quality coming from.

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post #6405 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 11:37 AM
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Actually they both have xt32.
I realize the power rating is close, just wondering if there is a noticeable difference, I guess not.

Indecision may or may not be my problem.
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post #6406 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 11:39 AM
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Although they both feature Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and Sub EQ HT (dual sub calibration), it's not the 25W that would make the difference, rather the fact that the 4520CI is designed to power 4-ohm speakers to reference level volume whereas the 7008 is only designed for 6ohm+ speakers.

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post #6407 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

DD and DTS are simply compression techniques so when the DD/DTS compressed signal is "bitstreamed" to the AVR ... the AVR can detect which is being used and then uses the appropriate decoder to "decompress" the audio to the lossless PCM file. If the BDP does the decompressing to PCM, the AVR simply sees the audio as a signal made up of discrete channels and has no clue what original compression technique was used and therefore can only display "MULTI CH IN". smile.gif

I see, so even though it displays MULTI CH IN, with the BDP set to PCM it's still sending the proper signals to each speaker the same as if the BDP was set to bitstream and the receiver set to Dolby True HD?

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post #6408 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 11:41 AM
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Yup. smile.gif
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post #6409 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post

I am also interested in the differences between the two. I have NHT speakers rated at 87dB efficiency and wonder if the extra power of the 4520 would help or not.

I also have low sensitivity speakers (89dbs) and by getting the 4520ci the sound quality improved drastically and has given me many useful functions. My next upgrade is going to be switching out all 5 HT speakers to something with a sensitivity of 98dbs and above with 4ohm capabilities such as JTRs. By pairing them with the 4520ci, I'll be able to get the most out of my 4520ci and it will be a huge improvement. Low sensitivity speakers can only do so much.

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post #6410 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 12:01 PM
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Sound and Vision Magazine is currently reviewing the 4520 and I can't wait to hear their impression and specifically how it compares to the 7008.

Indecision may or may not be my problem.
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post #6411 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Although they both feature Audyssey MultEQ XT32 and Sub EQ HT (dual sub calibration), it's not the 25W that would make the difference, rather the fact that the 4520CI is designed to power 4-ohm speakers to reference level volume whereas the 7008 is only designed for 6ohm+ speakers.

Another thing to consider is the maximum wattage rating of the speakers. If that's significantly (2-3x) higher than the 100W/ch provided by the receivers, external amps might be appropriate if you want to be able to listen to movies closer to reference sound levels. Quality external amps can also increase the sound level at which distortion becomes audible. Some people have argued that increased distortion is often what causes soundtracks to seem to be too loud when listening below reference.

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post #6412 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

I also have low sensitivity speakers (89dbs) and by getting the 4520ci the sound quality improved drastically and has given me many useful functions. My next upgrade is going to be switching out all 5 HT speakers to something with a sensitivity of 98dbs and above with 4ohm capabilities such as JTRs. By pairing them with the 4520ci, I'll be able to get the most out of my 4520ci and it will be a huge improvement. Low sensitivity speakers can only do so much.

I think this results from hearing bias. You can take the weakest AVR in the business and the most powerful from the major manufacturers and the difference in level clipping would be barely audible. Reality is that we are using about 1 or 2 watts per channel on average with peaks up in the area of 20 watts for a typical home audio environment. Even less when one employs a powered subwoofer. AVR amplifier power is pretty close to being a meaningless specification. But folks have been trained to think it is critical for some reason.
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post #6413 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 01:43 PM
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I think this results from hearing bias. You can take the weakest AVR in the business and the most powerful from the major manufacturers and the difference in level clipping would be barely audible. Reality is that we are using about 1 or 2 watts per channel on average with peaks up in the area of 20 watts for a typical home audio environment. Even less when one employs a powered subwoofer. AVR amplifier power is pretty close to being a meaningless specification. But folks have been trained to think it is critical for some reason.

Yeah that's why I'm getting more efficient speakers but not because I need them but because I'm going for above reference capabilities. I got the 4520ci because of the Audyssey XT32 and because Of the dual sub EQ ability. I don't know how to manually EQ yet biggrin.gif

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post #6414 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

I think this results from hearing bias. You can take the weakest AVR in the business and the most powerful from the major manufacturers and the difference in level clipping would be barely audible. Reality is that we are using about 1 or 2 watts per channel on average with peaks up in the area of 20 watts for a typical home audio environment. Even less when one employs a powered subwoofer. AVR amplifier power is pretty close to being a meaningless specification. But folks have been trained to think it is critical for some reason.

Yeah that's why I'm getting more efficient speakers but not because I need them but because I'm going for above reference capabilities. I got the 4520ci because of the Audyssey XT32 and because Of the dual sub EQ ability. I don't know how to manually EQ yet biggrin.gif

While the low amp power usage might be correct for average soundtrack levels, it's not correct for the peak levels involved in some louder scenes if you're listening at reference level. Explosions, for example. can have much higher power requirements. People have reported damaging tweeters and midrange speakers. Remember that modern receivers like the 4520 calibrate their output so that they will attempt to deliver 105dB peaks when the volume control knob is set for reference level playback (80 absolute or 0 relative volume settings on D&M receivers). Loud as it seems, calibration is done at a relatively low 75dB, and the receiver has no way to know if your amp+speaker system can actually deliver higher sound levels. If the amps can't do it, but you force them to try, they'll clip. If the speakers can't do it, they might be damaged.

FWIW, Master and Commander is one movie known to produce very high sound levels during its sea battle scenes. The train crash in Super 8 is another example.

Personally, I like to watch BDs with the volume control set to about -20, which sounds loud enough to me, but not too loud. So peaks would be about 85dB, well within my system's capabilities (87dB sensitivity speakers). Many other people report a similar volume preference. According to the Crown calculator, a 11Watt amp would be adequate for that. For 95dB peaks (-10 on the volume control, 2x the apparent volume level), 10x the power at 110 Watts would be needed. My speakers are rated at 250 Watts max, and my amps at 150 W/ch, so that should be OK too. Reference level volume setting of 0 with 105dB peaks, though, would be another factor of 10 in power. Trying to deliver over 1 KW per channel would fry things rather thoroughly.

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post #6415 of 8844 Old 12-15-2013, 02:54 PM
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While the low amp power usage might be correct for average soundtrack levels, it's not correct for the peak levels involved in some louder scenes if you're listening at reference level. Explosions, for example. can have much higher power requirements. People have reported damaging tweeters and midrange speakers. Remember that modern receivers like the 4520 calibrate their output so that they will attempt to deliver 105dB peaks when the volume control knob is set for reference level playback (80 absolute or 0 relative volume settings on D&M receivers). Loud as it seems, calibration is done at a relatively low 75dB, and the receiver has no way to know if your amp+speaker system can actually deliver higher sound levels. If the amps can't do it, but you force them to try, they'll clip. If the speakers can't do it, they might be damaged.

FWIW, Master and Commander is one movie known to produce very high sound levels during its sea battle scenes. The train crash in Super 8 is another example.

Personally, I like to watch BDs with the volume control set to about -20, which sounds loud enough to me, but not too loud. So peaks would be about 85dB, well within my system's capabilities (87dB sensitivity speakers). Many other people report a similar volume preference. According to the Crown calculator, a 11Watt amp would be adequate for that. For 95dB peaks (-10 on the volume control, 2x the apparent volume level), 10x the power at 110 Watts would be needed. My speakers are rated at 250 Watts max, and my amps at 150 W/ch, so that should be OK too. Reference level volume setting of 0 with 105dB peaks, though, would be another factor of 10 in power. Trying to deliver over 1 KW per channel would fry things rather thoroughly.

Yep that's why I figure if I go with speakers that have 10dbs or more sensitivity, larger woofers, and more max wattage ability, then I can achieve higher volumes, larger soundstage, less distortion, and less strain on the 4520ci receiver at or above reference volumes which is where I listen at. One example would be to pair the receiver with some JTR 228's, that would give me the capabilities I'm looking for. It pretty much comes down to a persons room size and design, and ones tastes. I'm aiming for a bit more than the average setup biggrin.gif

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post #6416 of 8844 Old 12-16-2013, 11:08 AM
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Personally, I like to watch BDs with the volume control set to about -20, which sounds loud enough to me, but not too loud. So peaks would be about 85dB, well within my system's capabilities (87dB sensitivity speakers). Many other people report a similar volume preference.

I find I prefer around -6 to -8 from reference for most movies.
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FWIW, Master and Commander is one movie known to produce very high sound levels during its sea battle scenes. The train crash in Super 8 is another example.

Master and Commander is an awesome sound track. I'll have to re-visit Super 8 one of these days.
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I think this results from hearing bias. You can take the weakest AVR in the business and the most powerful from the major manufacturers and the difference in level clipping would be barely audible. Reality is that we are using about 1 or 2 watts per channel on average with peaks up in the area of 20 watts for a typical home audio environment. Even less when one employs a powered subwoofer. AVR amplifier power is pretty close to being a meaningless specification. But folks have been trained to think it is critical for some reason.

Wimpy / low powered AVR + tiny / cheap satellite speakers = mad.gif My first home theater consisted of a $ 250 underpowered AVR and tiny speakers in too big a great room ( hey - I didn't know better ). During a cannon blast in the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie, my AVR shut down in protection mode. eek.gif I've been using a much bigger hammer for the job ever since ( AVR and speaker wise ) ! Live and learn as they say. smile.gif
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post #6417 of 8844 Old 12-16-2013, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I think this results from hearing bias. You can take the weakest AVR in the business and the most powerful from the major manufacturers and the difference in level clipping would be barely audible. Reality is that we are using about 1 or 2 watts per channel on average with peaks up in the area of 20 watts for a typical home audio environment. Even less when one employs a powered subwoofer. AVR amplifier power is pretty close to being a meaningless specification. But folks have been trained to think it is critical for some reason.

Wimpy / low powered AVR + tiny / cheap satellite speakers = mad.gif My first home theater consisted of a $ 250 underpowered AVR and tiny speakers in too big a great room ( hey - I didn't know better ). During a cannon blast in the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie, my AVR shut down in protection mode. eek.gif I've been using a much bigger hammer for the job ever since ( AVR and speaker wise ) ! Live and learn as they say. smile.gif

The problem with generalizations is that there are always exceptions. Here at AVS we get a cross-section of user types, certainly slanted more heavily towards the "enthusiast" than the average random sample of the population, but still a wide variety.

What is said above is definitely true for MOST people -- but because of the exponential nature of power requirements, it can be very NOT true in many cases. If you have some combination of a large room, somewhat inefficient speakers, and the desire to approach or hit reference volumes, then the amplifiers in a receiver can certainly not be up to the task.

So while I fully agree that for most people, "AVR amplifier power is pretty close to being a meaningless specification" -- for example the people who are trying to decide between a 75 w/ch AVR and the 90 w/ch step-up model for a basic moderate volume living room setup -- it is definitely not the case for many folks here. Especially on a thread like this with a high-end unit where the users are going to lean even more heavily to the hardcore enthusiast type.

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post #6418 of 8844 Old 12-16-2013, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Crossovers are not brick walls, they are sloped filters.

The slope should be so steep as to be inaudible in the mains @ 30hz.

Not really true. A typical HPF in the AVR for the top side of the crossover will be 12dB/octave; in theory this will combine with the natural roll-off of the speaker to produce a typical 4th-order (24dB/octave). Even if you assume a full 4th-order slope, the difference between the 80Hz crossover and 30Hz is barely more than an octave.

I will borrow one of Jerry's measurement graphs to illustrate the point -- below is a pre-out measurement (the green trace is the important one, since it's the un-EQ'd pre-out signal). I believe this is an 80Hz crossover (correct me if I'm wrong Jerry), you can clearly see the gradual downward slope below 100Hz. You can see the 12dB/octave slope, as it appears to be an 85dB sweep and the signal at 40Hz (one octave down from 80Hz) is about 73dB (or 85 minus 12).

Note that on this graph, the SPL at 80Hz is approximately 83dB, and then down at 30Hz it's still only down to about 68dB. That would DEFINITELY still be audible, and in the case of the OP who was running extremely loud tones to test max output of the subwoofer, even more so.


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post #6419 of 8844 Old 12-16-2013, 12:21 PM
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Hi,
I have a general Denon question and I'm hoping one of the experts here might have an answer. I have a second 2 channel system which currently has a Pioneer 1021k avr and I'd like to replace that avr with a Denon unit but I need it to connect wirelessly to my router. I called Denon and asked if any of the WiFi adapters would work with the X2000 and the Denon guy said it was a 50/50 chance. He said their units are not made to connect wirelessly but he knows of users who have done that and it worked but he also knew of users who could never get their Denon receivers to connect no matter which adapter they used.
So my question is: does any one here use their Denon avr wirelessly (?) and if so are there any tips as to which adapter or receiver I should be looking at?
I can hook this unit up with a super long ethernet cable to update but that's not practical for everyday listening to Spotify & Pandora.
Thanx

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post #6420 of 8844 Old 12-16-2013, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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There are no WiFi adapters that will work in the sense of something like a USB dongle that you plug into the USB port (like you would on say a laptop PC). However, there are MANY options for adding wireless access using a WiFi bridge, either reporposing an old WiFi router and running it in "bridge mode" or a dedicated bridge like Apple Airport Express or the many available bridges marketed as "gaming adapters".

These WiFi bridges basically grab the wireless signal and then turn it back into a wired signal so you just plug the receiver into the bridge with a short ethernet cable. So as far as the receiver is concerned it's still hooking up to a standard wired network, the AVR doesn't "know" that it's a wireless signal.

The other option is a Powerline Adapter, which involves using the electrical wire of the house to carry the internet signal. You plug in one adapter near the main router, and then the other end is plugged in near your AV rack, and it supplies a wired signal to the AV components.
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