The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 10:10 AM
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As I sit here watching the rain and wind build while reading the thread, I have a question for the RS-232 folks.  Is there really any benefit (other than feedback on input commands) btwn RS-232 and IR?  I am using direct IR inputs with my URC MX-3000, but also have RS-232 available on the Denon and Oppo BD-93.  Just curious, thanks.


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post #632 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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if you are going to compare "raw" sound quality and at least try to be objective you need to level match and also turn off the equalizer. You want to eliminate as many variables as possible.

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post #633 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staaled View Post

Will the 4520 accept DSD through HDMI ?

yep. But if may still be better to have the player decode and just send PCM to the receiver, see this thread for more info: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1429939/low-bass-output-when-listening-to-sacds-using-the-dsd-setting

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post #634 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strider- View Post

No, it's an IR remote like all the others. Your best bet is to just use the remote app for your smartphone (Android or iOS). If you want to do anything more complicated, you'll probably need to setup an IR distribution system.


Thanks! I knew that the iPod Touch control was available (at present, I have no Droid devices), but I am a little miffed that such a stellar top-of-the-line AVR would not have an included rf-remote. Maybe it's becoming a little old skool, but it still should be included on a receiver like this IMHO. It just adds to the cost to have to buy rf-remotes for both upstairs and downstairs. I have so far avoided setting up IR-distrib.
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post #635 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flint350 View Post

As I sit here watching the rain and wind build while reading the thread, I have a question for the RS-232 folks.  Is there really any benefit (other than feedback on input commands) btwn RS-232 and IR?  I am using direct IR inputs with my URC MX-3000, but also have RS-232 available on the Denon and Oppo BD-93.  Just curious, thanks.

I would expect RS-232 to be more useful than IR for people who have whole-house control systems like Crestron.

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post #636 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flint350 View Post

As I sit here watching the rain and wind build while reading the thread, I have a question for the RS-232 folks.  Is there really any benefit (other than feedback on input commands) btwn RS-232 and IR?  I am using direct IR inputs with my URC MX-3000, but also have RS-232 available on the Denon and Oppo BD-93.  Just curious, thanks.

i don't use the feedback (urc is one way only), but using serial allows "more control" over the unit...

one example is that you can get the jackrabbit volume control under control... and you can set specific values for many variables.. and so on...

ps. stay safe...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

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post #637 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

You're not going to get a fair representation of power consumption by looking at the printed results in the manual, rather the best way to rate them is via comparable benchmark testing. Regardless, the difference between the models will be moot in everyday usuage.

has there been an all channels driven test( with associated distortion ratings) of the 4520 yet?

I agree with you on the manufacturers printed material being questionable

I have seen results above and below( sometimes significantly) the manufacturers published ones



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post #638 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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no, it's only been out like a month. Not going to happen that soon. It takes a while for pro reviewers to get these models reviewed and tested.

as an FYI, the 4810, 4310, and 4311 were all bench tested to put out well over 100 w/ch with all channels driven. No reason to expect the 4520 to be much different. Actually, it's worth noting that the 4810 did worse with the full ACD test because a power limiter kicked in, but this has been true for other 9 ch models too (e.g. from Onko). I think it's pretty safe to assume that the 4520 will also be able to put out 100+ w/ch to all channels with any "real world" content.

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post #639 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 01:54 PM
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Has anyone done a comparison between the Onkyo 3010 and the 4520, yet? I am leaning towards getting one of these.

HD-A1 + XBOX Add-On + PS3 = Format Neutral
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post #640 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 01:55 PM
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ok

I noticed that Magnolia Home Theater has it in their showrooms now....at close to retail...in Chicagoland anyway....dont have it in Indianapolis and the sales guy there wasnt sure when they were going to be receiving them

I "touched" one a bit the other day. I didnt have time for the guy to give me a demo

Their set up seems to be( if they have the 2-3 demo room set up in that particular location)...Denon 4520..Yamaha 3020 and Pioneer SC67 all in the same demo room

So it might be fairly easy to demo all three when you are there

Also saw a couple of open box 4311's at about 40% of what they are asking for the 4520



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post #641 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

no, it's only been out like a month. Not going to happen that soon. It takes a while for pro reviewers to get these models reviewed and tested.
as an FYI, the 4810, 4310, and 4311 were all bench tested to put out well over 100 w/ch with all channels driven. No reason to expect the 4520 to be much different. Actually, it's worth noting that the 4810 did worse with the full ACD test because a power limiter kicked in, but this has been true for other 9 ch models too (e.g. from Onko). I think it's pretty safe to assume that the 4520 will also be able to put out 100+ w/ch to all channels with any "real world" content.


interesting...and hard to believe in the case of the 4310. I owned one of those and it for me was very disappointing...and was sold quickly
I see many of the units have "MUCH " lower power with all channels driven...case in point the Yamaha aventage series...I think the A3000, as I recall from a test result only pushes about 62 watts with ACD
I have anA3000..that replaced an Onkyo 875. It sounds better and more neutral than the Onkyo. However its running book shelf speakers. If I were using it with towers I would have stayed with the Onkyo as its much more powerful and dynamic...though it can sound "heavy and muddy" at times

I will wait to see what the bench testing reveals on the 4520


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post #642 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 02:10 PM
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acd tests are likely the most over-rated (and misunderstood) tests that exist...

not that they are completely useless... but "real world" and "acd" are two different things...

- chris

 

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post #643 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TazExprez View Post

Has anyone done a comparison between the Onkyo 3010 and the 4520, yet? I am leaning towards getting one of these.

probably cant go wrong there with either choice...and if you hear that there are any thing but modest differences in sound....its likely just a matter of personal subjective taste

On another note...if you can live with either last years 3009/5009 and are nears a Fry's electronics...they are selling the 5009 for about 1/3 of retail

I just bought one there last week

It is not a big necessity ,for me,..to have a lot of "tricks"...anything made in the last 2-3 years ( at this level of component) fills my needs
I only listen to discreet channels and dont run addtional zones....so things such as 11.4 dont really reel me in
Unless..ofcourse there has been a major improvement in sound quality to go with the 11.4 and new tricks


Warren

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post #644 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

interesting...and hard to believe in the case of the 4310. I owned one of those and it for me was very disappointing...

here you go: http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-4310ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Quote:
HT Labs Measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 113.8 watts
1% distortion at 131.0 watts

Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 104.6 watts
1% distortion at 116.6 watts


I have a strong feeling your "disappointment" wasn't due to amplifier power. This is probably one of the more overrated stats on many AVR's -- even if one puts out 80 w/ch and the other 110 w/ch, that is really meaningless in real world use (less than 1dB difference in headroom).

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post #645 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

acd tests are likely the most over-rated (and misunderstood) tests that exist...
not that they are completely useless... but "real world" and "acd" are two different things...


that would seem to depend on what "real world" means to the owner wouldn't it?

There are so many different scenarios of listening areas etc



Warren

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post #646 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

acd tests are likely the most over-rated (and misunderstood) tests that exist...

not that they are completely useless... but "real world" and "acd" are two different things...

also a very good point... so many people get hung up on these "all channels driven" tests but they aren't necessarily correlated with real world performance, unless you like sitting there pumping sine wave test tones to your speakers for fun tongue.gif

here's a good article on the topic: http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/the-all-channels-driven-acd-amplifier-test

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post #647 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

here you go: http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-4310ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
I have a strong feeling your "disappointment" wasn't due to amplifier power. This is probably one of the more overrated stats on many AVR's -- even if one puts out 80 w/ch and the other 110 w/ch, that is really meaningless in real world use (less than 1dB difference in headroom).

could be...but connecting 3 different AVR's to the same speakers with the same source material in the same room...the 4310 was the only one of the 3 that clipped and shut down

Granted I was pushing it VERY hard...as I was with the other 2 units with a very low impedance load



Warren

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post #648 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

also a very good point... so many people get hung up on these "all channels driven" tests but they aren't necessarily correlated with real world performance, unless you like sitting there pumping sine wave test tones to your speakers for fun tongue.gif
here's a good article on the topic: http://www.audioholics.com/education/amplifier-technology/the-all-channels-driven-acd-amplifier-test

well...some of this probably brought on by the "smoke and mirrors" statistics that manufacturers give with their units...
either with amp power or levels of distortion that are not realistic...

though on the high end of the spectrum they seem to be much truer......look at a Krell or a McIntosh spec sheet for example



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post #649 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

yep. But if may still be better to have the player decode and just send PCM to the receiver, see this thread for more info: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1429939/low-bass-output-when-listening-to-sacds-using-the-dsd-setting
Thanks.
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post #650 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

acd tests are likely the most over-rated (and misunderstood) tests that exist...
not that they are completely useless... but "real world" and "acd" are two different things...


that would seem to depend on what "real world" means to the owner wouldn't it?

There are so many different scenarios of listening areas etc



Warren

nope, not really... there's a huge difference between pumping test tones and "real world" material... for one, "real world" material is dynamic....

- chris

 

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post #651 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

nope, not really... there's a huge difference between pumping test tones and "real world" material... for one, "real world" material is dynamic....

I wasnt talking about pumping test tones

My point was that speaker differences, listening area size( and shape) and just plain preference of listening levels( and channels) can make "real world" quite different from one owner to the next



Warren

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post #652 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 02:43 PM
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that is not the point... oh well....

- chris

 

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post #653 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

re: rs-232 protocol manual... found it...

linkage if anyone else needs it...

http://www.audioproducts.com.au/downloadcenter/products/Denon/AVR4520BK/Manuals/AVR4520_PROTOCOL_V01.pdf

Chris - Thanks, I added this link to the first post of the thread smile.gif

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post #654 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 06:24 PM
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^^^

my minor contribution to the cause... smile.gif

hooe mine comes in the next couple weeks... should be interesting... smile.gif

- chris

 

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post #655 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 06:38 PM
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post #656 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

^ Still have power, I see. That's good news.

+1

But you're going cold turkey on XT32 on a night that begs for diversion....how did that go?

Stuart

 

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post #657 of 8899 Old 10-29-2012, 09:06 PM
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Thanks for the RS-232 replies and info.  The power here went out briefly this evening but was back inside of half an hour.  I have a 20kw genset that runs the house but decided against too much electronic experimentation for the night as I simply didn't want the high end components suddenly cycling, despite surge/line protection, etc.  This will give me more time to read up on the Emo XPA-3 amps and decide if I really need one! 


Ray
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post #658 of 8899 Old 10-30-2012, 05:23 AM
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Is there anyone that has compared the amp section of this AVR to an external amplifier?
I'm considering using a 20 year old Krell KAV-500 with this unit but I wonder if the internal amp would suffice ?
Anyone?



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post #659 of 8899 Old 10-30-2012, 05:45 AM
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Many thanks for all your effort and tests regarding the Dialog Enhancment (specially to AustinJerry). This sounds like a greate feature for resolving my issue.

But just one additional question. I'm wondering about the HDMI standard. You can read everywhere that HDMI 2.0 is coming out end of this year mostly with additional frame rates for 4k video. In the tech specs for the Denon 4520 the is only 4k support. does anyone know what frame rates are supporte at 4k?
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post #660 of 8899 Old 10-30-2012, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

^ Still have power, I see. That's good news.

yup. still have it now too.. have an indoor swimming pool in basement though, my sump pump gave up the ghost... frown.gif gonna be real fun pumping it out with a wet/dry vac... could be a lot worse though... the shore is destroyed... frown.giffrown.gif gonna look a lot different when i get down there later this week to help a friend clean up (assuming we can even get there)...
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

^ Still have power, I see. That's good news.

+1

But you're going cold turkey on XT32 on a night that begs for diversion....how did that go?

3 words... "top gear marathon"... biggrin.gif

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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