The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 220 - AVS Forum
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post #6571 of 8868 Old 01-11-2014, 11:50 AM
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After spending 4 hours over the past couple days tinkering, I have qty(3) negative comments:
1.) There are some features that cannot be accessed without the remote (Insta-Preview is the obvious one, and I assume there are others I haven't discovered yet). I understand the intention of the 'clean look' of the face, but that's why there is a door on the face, to hide buttons from view. The 4520 is almost as spartan behind the door as it is on the face of the unit.
2.) It misjudges subwoofer distance (14ft away, Audyssey thinks it is 26ft), and in my opinion it SEVERELY under-emphasizes sub output without user intervention. I ran 8-point calibration TWICE, without improvement. I know sub distance is traditionally inexact in the past, but I bought this in anticipation of its amazing subwoofer calibration abilities. In it's final setup, it will control multiple subs, so observing qty(2) deficiencies in this temporary setup with a single 15" sub makes me question its effectiveness with blending multiple 18" subs in different places in the room.
3.) OSD - nothing displayed on HDMI-out1 or HDMI-out2 for Pandora or Internet Radio or Network access (DLNA access of pictures or music). Now that I see the trend (all network-centered content) I believe this could be a defect of a partifcular chip/section my particular unit. All other inputs have OSD, and even in Pandora, etc I can bring up Setup menus, there isjust no 'Now Playing' display under any circumstances (I've performed multiple resets, and toggled the OSD settings).

I'm planning to keep the unit, and perhaps take it in for service. It is overall a very nicely built and configurable receiver, and I am looking forward to a 11.2 system. I had a Pioneer Elite SC-57 that I returned because it had an unsatisfactory proprietary calibration and terrible user interface. Aas owner of a Kuro plasma, previous Pioneer Elite VSX-33TX (I still use this decade-old receiver - great sound and great features, poorly developed menu structure) and a Pioneer 6-disc in-dash car DVD receiver, I see that Pioneer continues to be universally poor in execution of its menus / user interfaces. I also tried an Onkyo that I returned because it had audible signal noise thru the HDMI ports. BTW - I never thought of HDMI transmitting noise, but it is made of copper wires - I wish HD-surround formats could be transmitted via optical-digital, because it allows components to be electrically isolated from each other.

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post #6572 of 8868 Old 01-11-2014, 11:51 AM
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So I'm joining this topic, since I just got my 4520 today. I upgraded from AVR-1909 which I was using since 2008 and it still is a great receiver in my opinion, however for christmas I got a pair of JBL TL260's which the 1909 can't power completely and it needed upgrading. I have read all posts in the topic containing the word "fan" in them, because after 3 hours of listening quietly, it seems to me that the 4520 is a bit hotter than the 1909. It's staying on the top shelf with all the free space on all sides of it, but it still seems hot to me. Using a flashlight I can see that there are 2 fans on the bottom of the 4520 which are not running. I can see that many people here are using external fans, but I'm thinking of somehow connecting the internal fans to my PC's fan controller to run at least on 5V at all times, and also I'm thinking of changing the fans themselves with NoiseBlocker Multiframe S3's. Can someone please link to the Service Manual of this model so I could check if I can do what I want, before opening the 4520 and find out it was pointless? Thank you smile.gif.
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post #6573 of 8868 Old 01-11-2014, 12:31 PM
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I measured the temperature of the 4520 after it had been running quite some time, and I measured 130 degrees F. At the hottest part of the case. My unit is on an open shelf with free air circulation on all sides. I don't think this temperature is overly hot or a cause for concern. I have never seen or heard the internal fans turn on, which would be an indication of overheating.

My recommendation would be to stop worrying about temperature and enjoy your new system.
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post #6574 of 8868 Old 01-11-2014, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WHATTHEDILEO View Post
 


It misjudges subwoofer distance (14ft away, Audyssey thinks it is 26ft), 
 

 

The 'distance' setting is really nothing to do with 'distance' as such. A better name for this on-screen item would be 'delay' because that is what it actually is. Audyssey is not measuring the 'distance' of the speaker under test (in your case here, the sub), it is measuring the delay between the sound leaving the AVR and arriving, via the sub, at the mic. Audyssey does this with a very good degree of accuracy. It is perfectly normal for the actual, physical distance of the sub from the MLP to be significantly less than the 'distance' (delay) reported by Audyssey. This is because Audyssey has 'taken into account' the delays inherent in the subwoofer which are caused by DSP in the sub's circuits. You may have observed that Audyssey sets the 'distances' for the satellite speakers pretty accurately, in relation to their actual distances (because no inherent delay is there in a passive speaker). It is unlikely that the Audyssey algorithms will measure the distance/delay for one speaker (eg the centre) correctly but then measure incorrectly for another speaker (eg the Sub).

 

The objective, of course, is to have all sound arrive at the MLP at the same time. It is clearly impossible for Audyssey to physically relocate the sub to achieve this, so it does it a different way. It increases the 'distance' setting (the delay) from the actual 14 feet to 26 feet - an additional 12 feet. Sound travels at approx 1130 feet in one second. So it will travel 12 feet in approx 11 milliseconds. What this means in your case is that Audyssey has worked on the basis that the sub is 12 feet further away than it really is, so the AVR needs to 'start' the sound 11ms 'early' in order that it arrives at your ears at the same time as the sound from the other speakers when the system is being used. The 11ms is the time by which the signal is delayed due to the processing going on inside the Sub's amp. This is covered in the Audyssey FAQ:

 

f)1.    Why has Audyssey set my sub distance much greater than it actually measures?

 

So, far from being some sort of 'mistake', or 'misjudgement' Audyssey is working properly in the context of the system it is measuring.

 

Quote:
... and in my opinion it SEVERELY under-emphasizes sub output without user intervention. I ran 8-point calibration TWICE, without improvement. I know sub distance is traditionally inexact in the past, but I bought this in anticipation of its amazing subwoofer calibration abilities. In it's final setup, it will control multiple subs,

 

Audyssey aims to deliver its target curve after calibration. Many people are unused to accurate bass. They may have spent years listening to room influences on the bass frequencies which can produce peaks of up to 20dB very commonly in an untreated room. When these peaks are removed by equalization, there is often a sense that 'something is missing' - and it is: the big peaks! If you use independent measuring after running Audyssey you will see that the bass is usually fairly accurate at reference level (Audyssey's objective) assuming the subs are capable of performing to the required standard.If you are listening below Reference Level (for movies) you will need to engage Dynamic EQ which will boost the bass to bring it perceptually back to where it would be at Reference, even at levels well below Reference. Turn on Dynamic EQ if you haven't already done so.  Of course, some people have a preference for boosted bass, which is fine, but it is always the best policy to start with Reference and then to move on to Preference once a base line has been established.

 

See also here:

 

f)5.    Since I ran Audyssey everything sounds great - but where has my bass gone?

 

And here for info on Dynamic EQ:

 

g)2.   What is Dynamic EQ?

 

Quote:
... so observing qty(2) deficiencies in this temporary setup with a single 15" sub makes me question its effectiveness with blending multiple 18" subs.

 

You are questioning its effectiveness based on 'deficiencies' which are based on misunderstandings. I can assure you that MultEQ XT32 is the best way to electronically EQ your bass frequencies at anything like an affordable price. There is considerable information in the Audyssey FAQ which may be of help - linked above for contextual references and in my signature.

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post #6575 of 8868 Old 01-11-2014, 01:26 PM
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^^ Make that MultiEQ comment "at an affordable price and to EQ without considerable measurement experience or without acquiring esoteric standalone tools".

Otherwise XT32 in particular's a fantastic bang for the buck and learning curve, period.

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post #6576 of 8868 Old 01-11-2014, 01:50 PM
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When new, my 4520 ran from 110-130 +/- so I bought a cheapie USB fan that I programmed to turn on at 120.
Now, after using it for almost a year the fan never turns on. The 4520 runs between 100-110 now, so for whatever reason my unit has cooled down almost 20 degrees since new.

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post #6577 of 8868 Old 01-11-2014, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

^^ Make that MultiEQ comment "at an affordable price and to EQ without considerable measurement experience or without acquiring esoteric standalone tools".

Otherwise XT32 in particular's a fantastic bang for the buck and learning curve, period.

 

Yes, agreed.

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post #6578 of 8868 Old 01-11-2014, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

When new, my 4520 ran from 110-130 +/- so I bought a cheapie USB fan that I programmed to turn on at 120.
Now, after using it for almost a year the fan never turns on. The 4520 runs between 100-110 now, so for whatever reason my unit has cooled down almost 20 degrees since new.

 

Some things do get cooler as they age. Clint Eastwood, for example ;)

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post #6579 of 8868 Old 01-11-2014, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I measured the temperature of the 4520 after it had been running quite some time, and I measured 130 degrees F. At the hottest part of the case. My unit is on an open shelf with free air circulation on all sides. I don't think this temperature is overly hot or a cause for concern. I have never seen or heard the internal fans turn on, which would be an indication of overheating.

My recommendation would be to stop worrying about temperature and enjoy your new system.

So 130*F is like 54*C on the case, which means that the radiator under it is at least 60-65*C, and I don't like electronic devices working at over 40*C in my house smile.gif. The thing smells of brand new hardware that's running hotter than it should biggrin.gif. I will fix it for sure! I probably will even without the Service Manual. The NB S3's shouldn't put out any noise at 5V - very very silent fans smile.gif. Did you know that cooler hardware consumes less electricity to work?
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post #6580 of 8868 Old 01-11-2014, 04:10 PM
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I actually used an infrared thermometer to read the temp of the heat sinks under the case. The case is not hot to the touch, so I am not concerned. After all, Denon puts fans inside the case to deal with overheating, and they never turn on. What does that tell us?
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post #6581 of 8868 Old 01-11-2014, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I actually used an infrared thermometer to read the temp of the heat sinks under the case. The case is not hot to the touch, so I am not concerned. After all, Denon puts fans inside the case to deal with overheating, and they never turn on. What does that tell us?
That every single unit is broken. wink.gif
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post #6582 of 8868 Old 01-11-2014, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

1. No audio should be required.
2.. Yes.

Note, the Dell monitor will have to be capable of receiving standard TV video resolution.

Thanks JD, media room is all set waiting on the delivery this week.
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post #6583 of 8868 Old 01-11-2014, 05:51 PM
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The question of cooling comes up every few weeks. Depending on your setup, adding a fan is quite cheap insurance for a $2000+ component. Heat kills electronics.
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post #6584 of 8868 Old 01-11-2014, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I actually used an infrared thermometer to read the temp of the heat sinks under the case. The case is not hot to the touch, so I am not concerned. After all, Denon puts fans inside the case to deal with overheating, and they never turn on. What does that tell us?

Given the fact that they don't give me 10 year warranty, but 2 years, means to me, that it is possible, that someone calculated a way for this device (and any other device with the same warranty length) to fail not long after it's guarantee is over. It's also possible they had a large delivery of fans by mistake, and had to find a place to put them, if they actually have set them to start working at too high temperatures, measured with a better than an infrared thermometer tool - my hand! Also I don't like electronics running hot here, because it's a fire hazzard - if I can keep 'em cool, I do it.
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post #6585 of 8868 Old 01-11-2014, 07:24 PM
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I wouldn't go as far as saying its a fire hazard but excessive heat does shorten the life of electronics. Usually it would be failures involving transistors or capacitors, but anything can burn up to stop it from working. I have seen traces on boards burn up.

Even dust build up mixed with a little bit of humidity can cause a short as well.

The manufacturer does not calculate that "shortly a after a warranty their item is doom to fail". It's more of how long do they want the responsibly of having to take care of the cost of an item.

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post #6586 of 8868 Old 01-11-2014, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wysiwygbg View Post

Given the fact that they don't give me 10 year warranty, but 2 years, means to me, that it is possible, that someone calculated a way for this device (and any other device with the same warranty length) to fail not long after it's guarantee is over. It's also possible they had a large delivery of fans by mistake, and had to find a place to put them, if they actually have set them to start working at too high temperatures, measured with a better than an infrared thermometer tool - my hand! Also I don't like electronics running hot here, because it's a fire hazzard - if I can keep 'em cool, I do it.

Ummm .. that would be 3 years actually. smile.gif And not sure about Bulgaria, but here in the states, if purchased with a credit card, the card issuer will often add an extra 4th year for free as well. smile.gif

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post #6587 of 8868 Old 01-11-2014, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wysiwygbg View Post


Given the fact that they don't give me 10 year warranty, but 2 years, means to me, that it is possible, that someone calculated a way for this device (and any other device with the same warranty length) to fail not long after it's guarantee is over. It's also possible they had a large delivery of fans by mistake, and had to find a place to put them, if they actually have set them to start working at too high temperatures, measured with a better than an infrared thermometer tool - my hand! Also I don't like electronics running hot here, because it's a fire hazzard - if I can keep 'em cool, I do it.

I don't know why this has evolved into an argument.  I simply expressed an opinion that I didn't think this unit runs hot.  There is certainly nothing wrong with providing extra cooling.

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post #6588 of 8868 Old 01-12-2014, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Given the fact that they don't give me 10 year warranty, but 2 years, means to me, that it is possible, that someone calculated a way for this device (and any other device with the same warranty length) to fail not long after it's guarantee is over.

That's a stretch.
If Denon designed their units, especially their higher end stuff to fail after three years they'd have gone out of business years ago I would think.
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post #6589 of 8868 Old 01-12-2014, 07:40 AM - Thread Starter
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So THAT part's the stretch but nobody's bothered by the "they got a mistake shipment of fans and had to find a place to put them" theory. tongue.gif
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post #6590 of 8868 Old 01-12-2014, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

So THAT part's the stretch but nobody's bothered by the "they got a mistake shipment of fans and had to find a place to put them" theory. tongue.gif

+1! I forgot to touch on that subject. Yeah that sounds like a conspiracy theorists idea lol.

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post #6591 of 8868 Old 01-12-2014, 11:20 AM
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Pain Infliction and AV_mike,

Thanks for the help! I decided to go ahead and get the X4000 from a local dealer (not the same model, but may still help others). It seemed that there weren't many options to solve the issue that would cause me to get a different receiver. While they do come on almost instantly, there is a .5 sec delay between them, which is just enough that I haven't had any problems in about 20 power cycles. I do have a Harmony 900, so it's good to know there is another option if it starts acting up.

Thanks again!
Mike
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post #6592 of 8868 Old 01-12-2014, 03:30 PM
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Well I've heard a lot of discussion in the past, when to get an aftermarket amp. So I figured I would post up my real world testing results of VERY high end amps (MC275Mk6s in Mono, and MC601s Mono Blocks) vs. the built in AVR-4520ci amps.

My methodology was:

Left speaker , built in AVR-4520ci amp
Right speaker, external amps (McIntosh gear)
Level matched the Left and Right with a SPL meter
Running in pure/direct stereo mode to avoid confusion (with Audyssey Disabled, and sub-woofer turned off)
Controlled by a computer over HDMI
Using a built in audio playback software with FLACS to quickly move the Left / Right Balance to A/B the two amps.

One thing I will say, the AVR-4520ci can put out a lot of power (over 280W peak, 190W rms) in stereo mode. My speakers B&W CM9's are very efficient, so to listen at moderate volume I'm using very little power (McIntosh is saying around 3 watts RMS, and around 30 watts peak, which is trying to figure out where it falls on their log scale).

For my setup, I start noticing AVR-4502ci built in amps distortion starting at -18db, that gets unbearable by -10db, the McIntosh gear never picks up distortion all the way to 0db, it just keeps going! The louder it gets, the better it sounds!!

At around -20db before the distortion really starts, the built in AVR-4520ci built in amps are AMAZING! A/B'ing them back and forth showed very subtle details, with the McIntosh gear I could hear extra detail such as string picking, breathing, cymbals, crowd noise. It was great, but not worth the extra money at this volume (in my opinion)

At anything from -15db and down, it's night and day difference and well worth the price.

So, basically, if your room is big enough or you listen to music from -15db or louder, the stock amps can't hang in comparison to higher end gear. If your room is smaller, or you listen to lower volumes (-18 and quieter), don't worry about external amps. Not worth the price in my opinion.

This just speaks to the quality of how amazing of a deal we get with our AVR-4520ci and how well built the 9 amplifier inside the amp are!

I hope this was helpful to some!

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post #6593 of 8868 Old 01-12-2014, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

Well I've heard a lot of discussion in the past, when to get an aftermarket amp. So I figured I would post up my real world testing results of VERY high end amps (MC275Mk6s in Mono, and MC601s Mono Blocks) vs. the built in AVR-4520ci amps.

My methodology was:

Left speaker , built in AVR-4520ci amp
Right speaker, external amps (McIntosh gear)
Level matched the Left and Right with a SPL meter
Running in pure/direct stereo mode to avoid confusion (with Audyssey Disabled, and sub-woofer turned off)
Controlled by a computer over HDMI
Using a built in audio playback software with FLACS to quickly move the Left / Right Balance to A/B the two amps.

One thing I will say, the AVR-4520ci can put out a lot of power (over 280W peak, 190W rms) in stereo mode. My speakers B&W CM9's are very efficient, so to listen at moderate volume I'm using very little power (McIntosh is saying around 3 watts RMS, and around 30 watts peak, which is trying to figure out where it falls on their log scale).

For my setup, I start noticing AVR-4502ci built in amps distortion starting at -18db, that gets unbearable by -10db, the McIntosh gear never picks up distortion all the way to 0db, it just keeps going! The louder it gets, the better it sounds!!

At around -20db before the distortion really starts, the built in AVR-4520ci built in amps are AMAZING! A/B'ing them back and forth showed very subtle details, with the McIntosh gear I could hear extra detail such as string picking, breathing, cymbals, crowd noise. It was great, but not worth the extra money at this volume (in my opinion)

At anything from -15db and down, it's night and day difference and well worth the price.

So, basically, if your room is big enough or you listen to music from -15db or louder, the stock amps can't hang in comparison to higher end gear. If your room is smaller, or you listen to lower volumes (-18 and quieter), don't worry about external amps. Not worth the price in my opinion.

This just speaks to the quality of how amazing of a deal we get with our AVR-4520ci and how well built the 9 amplifier inside the amp are!

I hope this was helpful to some!

Nice test and write up!

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post #6594 of 8868 Old 01-12-2014, 04:21 PM
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Yea, very interesting I'm curios what was the SPL when the 4520 started to distort? I can get around 105dbl when my paradigm s.6s start to sound stressed.
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post #6595 of 8868 Old 01-12-2014, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ingersol1211 View Post

Yea, very interesting I'm curios what was the SPL when the 4520 started to distort? I can get around 105dbl when my paradigm s.6s start to sound stressed.

Since SPL based on pressure, it will depend on the room and distance you are listening at.

For me, about 12 feet speaker to ear, it was around 82dbA.
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post #6596 of 8868 Old 01-12-2014, 05:30 PM
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Thanks Kamiraa, your right so many variables involved, when I took my readings I was about 7 ft. In front of my speakers which are about 8ft. apart with a SPL meter in one hand and the remote in the other and unfortunately no hearing protection as my ears rang for awhile afterwords.
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post #6597 of 8868 Old 01-12-2014, 06:14 PM
 
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For my setup, I start noticing AVR-4502ci built in amps distortion starting at -18db, that gets unbearable by -10db, the McIntosh gear never picks up distortion all the way to 0db, it just keeps going! The louder it gets, the better it sounds!!

...confused.gif

Just received and got a 4520ci up and running. What are you posting about? confused.gif

I have no context to understand what you're sharing.

Tomorrow I pull out REW and start measuring the room. At this point, I'm about as uniformed and ignorant as a neophyte to the 4520 can be.

(+8dB and it gets unbearable?) WTF! confused.gif

My first impressions of the 4520ci are, it's clear, clean and doesn't have as much output as a Marantz SR5008 that it's replacing. confused.gif

(i was listening at +/- 0dB and was unimpressed over that of the SR5008)

Listening to the Comcast provided, "Master and Commander" main battle scene using "Pure Direct."

At +/- 0 dB, SPL measures between 60dB and 88dB.

...???

(again, tomorrow I start measuring the room to see if I can find out what's what with what)

-
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post #6598 of 8868 Old 01-12-2014, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post


One thing I will say, the AVR-4520ci can put out a lot of power (over 280W peak, 190W rms) in stereo mode. My speakers B&W CM9's are very efficient, so to listen at moderate volume I'm using very little power (McIntosh is saying around 3 watts RMS, and around 30 watts peak, which is trying to figure out where it falls on their log scale).

For my setup, I start noticing AVR-4502ci built in amps distortion starting at -18db, that gets unbearable by -10db, the McIntosh gear never picks up distortion all the way to 0db, it just keeps going! The louder it gets, the better it sounds!!

At around -20db before the distortion really starts, the built in AVR-4520ci built in amps are AMAZING! A/B'ing them back and forth showed very subtle details, with the McIntosh gear I could hear extra detail such as string picking, breathing, cymbals, crowd noise. It was great, but not worth the extra money at this volume (in my opinion)

At anything from -15db and down, it's night and day difference and well worth the price.


This just speaks to the quality of how amazing of a deal we get with our AVR-4520ci and how well built the 9 amplifier inside the amp are!

I hope this was helpful to some!

 

 

There is something I am not understanding about your post, and I suspect other 4520 owners will be equally concerned.

 

You say that you measured the 4520 as having 190W RMS power in stereo mode.  You say your speakers are very efficient, and that the McIntosh amps are only drawing 3W of power.

 

But then you say that the 4520 starts to distort at -18 on the MV, and becomes unbearable at -10 on the MV, and this is only at about 82dB, measured at your MLP?  How can that be so, if your speakers are so efficient?

 

I must say, if the 4520 amps were distorting unbearably at the modest MV levels you mention, how come we don't have hundreds of postings reporting the same findings?  As I say, I must be misunderstanding your test, because it is really very hard to believe.  :confused:

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post #6599 of 8868 Old 01-12-2014, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

...confused.gif

Just received and got a 4520ci up and running. What are you posting about? confused.gif

I have no context to understand what you're sharing.

Tomorrow I pull out REW and start measuring the room. At this point, I'm about as uniformed and ignorant as a neophyte to the 4520 can be.

(+8dB and it gets unbearable?) WTF! confused.gif

My first impressions of the 4520ci are, it's clear, clean and doesn't have as much output as a Marantz SR5008 that it's replacing. confused.gif

(i was listening at +/- 0dB and was unimpressed over that of the SR5008)

Listening to the Comcast provided, "Master and Commander" main battle scene using "Pure Direct."

At +/- 0 dB, SPL measures between 60dB and 88dB.

...???

(again, tomorrow I start measuring the room to see if I can find out what's what with what)

-

For movies, I listen to obviously louder, for music I listen at much lower volumes because it's just constant volume (pressure) versus a majority of talking in movies. So, I guess try the same test with your favorite kind of musical CD.

I also think it's going to depend on what kind of speaker you are listening to and if your hearing can support hearing finer detail still? It seems like a majority of the folks whom get extremely into audiophile grade equipment have "aged" ears.

I'm still younger (in my 30s), and based on tests still have extremely good hearing with fall off at 17khz. So small amounts of distortion are very apparent to me, and drive my ears nuts.

But, for some, they might not notice the differences?

I really got the McIntosh gear to support listening to music, for movies I will think that the AVR-4520ci is going to be fine at -18db.
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post #6600 of 8868 Old 01-12-2014, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

...confused.gif

My first impressions of the 4520ci are, it's clear, clean and doesn't have as much output as a Marantz SR5008 that it's replacing. confused.gif

(i was listening at +/- 0dB and was unimpressed over that of the SR5008)

Listening to the Comcast provided, "Master and Commander" main battle scene using "Pure Direct."

At +/- 0 dB, SPL measures between 60dB and 88dB.


-

I would go in and make sure you don't have Dynamic Volume on. Fwiw, at "0" on the Main Volume after running Audyssey you should definitely be getting louder than 88 dB peaks. {Edit: They should be over 100 dB for that movie and with your speakers.}
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