The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 221 - AVS Forum
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post #6601 of 10700 Old 01-12-2014, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

I would go in and make sure you don't have Dynamic Volume on. Fwiw, at "0" on the Main Volume after running Audyssey you should definitely be getting louder than 88 dB peaks. {Edit: They should be over 100 dB for that movie and with your speakers.}

Or any offset on.
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post #6602 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 01:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

I would go in and make sure you don't have Dynamic Volume on. Fwiw, at "0" on the Main Volume after running Audyssey you should definitely be getting louder than 88 dB peaks. {Edit: They should be over 100 dB for that movie and with your speakers.}

Thanks! IIRC, yes, Dynamic Volume is on. I'll turn it off and see what changes take place.

With the SR5008, we listened to the television at -55dB and -50dB. With the 4520, currently we're listening at -20dB. It's a huge disparity between the two units and of course, the SR5008 is technologically, the inferior unit.

Tomorrow, I will take the time to learn more about dialing the system in and take a few room measurements so as to see how well XT32/SubEQ HT do with our subwoofers.

-
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post #6603 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 01:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

For movies, I listen to obviously louder, for music I listen at much lower volumes because it's just constant volume (pressure) versus a majority of talking in movies. So, I guess try the same test with your favorite kind of musical CD.

I also think it's going to depend on what kind of speaker you are listening to and if your hearing can support hearing finer detail still? It seems like a majority of the folks whom get extremely into audiophile grade equipment have "aged" ears.

I'm still younger (in my 30s), and based on tests still have extremely good hearing with fall off at 17khz. So small amounts of distortion are very apparent to me, and drive my ears nuts.

But, for some, they might not notice the differences?

I really got the McIntosh gear to support listening to music, for movies I will think that the AVR-4520ci is going to be fine at -18db.

Yes, I have aged ears which cut off about 14kHz to 15kHz. We have horn loaded mains and I have some distracting distortion so I'm looking at pulling the horn and adding damping material to the horn bell.

-
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post #6604 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

Well I've heard a lot of discussion in the past, when to get an aftermarket amp. So I figured I would post up my real world testing results of VERY high end amps (MC275Mk6s in Mono, and MC601s Mono Blocks) vs. the built in AVR-4520ci amps.

My methodology was:

Left speaker , built in AVR-4520ci amp
Right speaker, external amps (McIntosh gear)
Level matched the Left and Right with a SPL meter
Running in pure/direct stereo mode to avoid confusion (with Audyssey Disabled, and sub-woofer turned off)
Controlled by a computer over HDMI
Using a built in audio playback software with FLACS to quickly move the Left / Right Balance to A/B the two amps.

One thing I will say, the AVR-4520ci can put out a lot of power (over 280W peak, 190W rms) in stereo mode. My speakers B&W CM9's are very efficient, so to listen at moderate volume I'm using very little power (McIntosh is saying around 3 watts RMS, and around 30 watts peak, which is trying to figure out where it falls on their log scale).

For my setup, I start noticing AVR-4502ci built in amps distortion starting at -18db, that gets unbearable by -10db, the McIntosh gear never picks up distortion all the way to 0db, it just keeps going! The louder it gets, the better it sounds!!

At around -20db before the distortion really starts, the built in AVR-4520ci built in amps are AMAZING! A/B'ing them back and forth showed very subtle details, with the McIntosh gear I could hear extra detail such as string picking, breathing, cymbals, crowd noise. It was great, but not worth the extra money at this volume (in my opinion)

At anything from -15db and down, it's night and day difference and well worth the price.

So, basically, if your room is big enough or you listen to music from -15db or louder, the stock amps can't hang in comparison to higher end gear. If your room is smaller, or you listen to lower volumes (-18 and quieter), don't worry about external amps. Not worth the price in my opinion.

This just speaks to the quality of how amazing of a deal we get with our AVR-4520ci and how well built the 9 amplifier inside the amp are!

I hope this was helpful to some!

 

 

From a scientific POV, there are some problems with the test. First of all, it is a sighted test. Sighted tests are never used in any industry where A and B are compared with each other. This is because once the testee knows the identity of A and B and which is which, expectation bias enters the equation. Expectation bias is well documented - this is as good a starting place as any to learn more about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimenter's_bias

 

Here is a list of most of the biases which human beings are subject to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

 

These biases cannot be controlled or 'switched off'.  This raises the question of whether the same findings, in the test above, would have been made if the test had been conducted 'blind'.

 

Also, levelling the source SPLs has been shown to be required at the very minimum of ±0.5dB, with many experienced testers requiring ±0.1dB. Experience has shown that, although human beings cannot consciously hear these small level differences as level differences, they are sufficient to bias the test such that the louder unit is invariably preferred and perceived as 'better sounding'. Level matching needs to be done using a decent voltmeter connected to the output terminals of the units under test. Using a SPL meter, even a very good one, invalidates the test unfortunately.

 

Note I am not saying that McIntosh amplifiers are not better, or worse, or just the same, as any other amplifiers. They may be, or may not be. But a test of the sort described above doesn't help in establishing any of those posits as true or false. Only a properly conducted, blind (preferably double blind) ABX test in controlled conditions, level matched, with instant source switching etc, would reveal any differences that did, or did not, exist between the two units.

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post #6605 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

With the SR5008, we listened to the television at -55dB and -50dB. With the 4520, currently we're listening at -20dB. It's a huge disparity between the two units and of course, the SR5008 is technologically, the inferior unit.
The volume numbers are not absolute and are pretty meaningless even after Audyssey calibration. It's pretty doubtful you'd run out of headroom before distortion at lower measured dB on the 4520.

Technically a 3 dB increase is a doubling of volume, does the receiver actually do that? Of course not.
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From a scientific POV, there are some problems with the test. First of all, it is a sighted test. Sighted tests are never used in any industry where A and B are compared with each other. This is because once the testee knows the identity of A and B and which is which, expectation bias enters the equation. Expectation bias is well documented - this is as good a starting place as any to learn more about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimenter's_bias

Here is a list of most of the biases which human beings are subject to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

These biases cannot be controlled or 'switched off'.  This raises the question of whether the same findings, in the test above, would have been made if the test had been conducted 'blind'.

Also, levelling the source SPLs has been shown to be required at the very minimum of ±0.5dB, with many experienced testers requiring ±0.1dB. Experience has shown that, although human beings cannot consciously hear these small level differences as level differences, they are sufficient to bias the test such that the louder unit is invariably preferred and perceived as 'better sounding'. Level matching needs to be done using a decent voltmeter connected to the output terminals of the units under test. Using a SPL meter, even a very good one, invalidates the test unfortunately.

Note I am not saying that McIntosh amplifiers are not better, or worse, or just the same, as any other amplifiers. They may be, or may not be. But a test of the sort described above doesn't help in establishing any of those posits as true or false. Only a properly conducted, blind (preferably double blind) ABX test in controlled conditions, level matched, with instant source switching etc, would reveal any differences that did, or did not, exist between the two units.
I can tell you for one, I don't have bias towards the 'perceived better' items, heck, I find less expensive items better in a lot of scenarios.

While I agree the only way to properly test is measured identical I'd suggest that in that scenario, probably nobody would tell a difference.

I've demoed speakers in Magnolia and its really funny when they A/B compare receivers and one is louder and the employee is nodding their head as if it sounds better. In that case, the louder reciever was a Pioneer and I certainly do not like them, at all. To me, Pioneers I've heard sound muddy, and I've 'blind' tested that thought in several occasions and can always spot Pioneer sound, interestingly enough, I liked their car audio gear, back when it included Burr Brown DAC's.

In the end, for the price of a 4520, I see no better alternative options.
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post #6606 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

From a scientific POV, there are some problems with the test. First of all, it is a sighted test. Sighted tests are never used in any industry where A and B are compared with each other. This is because once the testee knows the identity of A and B and which is which, expectation bias enters the equation. Expectation bias is well documented - this is as good a starting place as any to learn more about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimenter's_bias

Here is a list of most of the biases which human beings are subject to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

These biases cannot be controlled or 'switched off'.  This raises the question of whether the same findings, in the test above, would have been made if the test had been conducted 'blind'.

Also, levelling the source SPLs has been shown to be required at the very minimum of ±0.5dB, with many experienced testers requiring ±0.1dB. Experience has shown that, although human beings cannot consciously hear these small level differences as level differences, they are sufficient to bias the test such that the louder unit is invariably preferred and perceived as 'better sounding'. Level matching needs to be done using a decent voltmeter connected to the output terminals of the units under test. Using a SPL meter, even a very good one, invalidates the test unfortunately.

Note I am not saying that McIntosh amplifiers are not better, or worse, or just the same, as any other amplifiers. They may be, or may not be. But a test of the sort described above doesn't help in establishing any of those posits as true or false. Only a properly conducted, blind (preferably double blind) ABX test in controlled conditions, level matched, with instant source switching etc, would reveal any differences that did, or did not, exist between the two units.
I can tell you for one, I don't have bias towards the 'perceived better' items, heck, I find less expensive items better in a lot of scenarios.
 

 

Then you are the one and only person in the world who is not subject to expectation bias, or who has the ability to control it. 

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post #6607 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 05:22 AM
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Then you are the one and only person in the world who is not subject to expectation bias, or who has the ability to control it. 
I'd say I can expect something, but it doesn't affect my ability to make a decision based on facts. A lot of people have Ownership Bias, if anything, I am more critical of things I own.

(Also, not to split hairs, but I said I do not have a defaulted bias towards perceived better items, not no bias at all ever.)
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post #6608 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Then you are the one and only person in the world who is not subject to expectation bias, or who has the ability to control it. 
I'd say I can expect something, but it doesn't affect my ability to make a decision based on facts. A lot of people have Ownership Bias, if anything, I am more critical of things I own.

(Also, not to split hairs, but I said I do not have a defaulted bias towards perceived better items, not no bias at all ever.)

 

The problem with cognitive human behavior wrt to bias, including expectation bias, is that it is not possible to control it even when we are aware of it. This is not 'bias' in the normal sense of the word, where for example, we might say someone is 'biased' in favor of a particular make of car or whatever. It is an inherent part of our cognitive behavior mechanisms. It's similar, in a sort of way, to the physical fact that you are unable to not blink if I thrust my finger towards your eye, even though I have guaranteed to you that I will not poke you in the eye. You still blink. Or when you have that test at the optometrist where they blow a puff of air on to your eye. You cannot not jump.

 

If you are interested in learning more about expectation bias, and how it is used against you by salesmen, and how your brain uses it against you all the time, this article by Tom Nousaine is well written and informative:

 

http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/Can%20You%20Trust%20Your%20Ears.pdf

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post #6609 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Thanks! IIRC, yes, Dynamic Volume is on. I'll turn it off and see what changes take place.

With the SR5008, we listened to the television at -55dB and -50dB. With the 4520, currently we're listening at -20dB. It's a huge disparity between the two units and of course, the SR5008 is technologically, the inferior unit.

Tomorrow, I will take the time to learn more about dialing the system in and take a few room measurements so as to see how well XT32/SubEQ HT do with our subwoofers.

-

Hello,
That is surprising to read. Is the volume disparity the same with Audyssey disengaged? While the 4520 does not have a very impressive amplifier stage, I would be shocked to find out it is less powerful then a SR5008. Due to the type of speakers I use my 4520 has always been in preamp only mode.
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AD

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Does a dam good job of driving my Paradigm ceiling surrounds.

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post #6611 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post
 
 
My first impressions of the 4520ci are, it's clear, clean and doesn't have as much output as a Marantz SR5008 that it's replacing. confused.gif

(i was listening at +/- 0dB and was unimpressed over that of the SR5008)

Listening to the Comcast provided, "Master and Commander" main battle scene using "Pure Direct."

At +/- 0 dB, SPL measures between 60dB and 88dB.

...???

(again, tomorrow I start measuring the room to see if I can find out what's what with what)

-

 

When you use Pure Direct you are bypassing both bass management and Audyssey, so your results have to be taken in that context. I assume you have run Audyssey?  If so, assuming the rest of the system is capable, you will get Reference Level at 0dB on the MV.  Most people find Reference Level to be way, way too loud for a domestic room. For example, I listen at what I call 'domestic Reference' which is about -5dB on the MV - this roughly equates to what I believe I hear in a commercial cinema. It is very loud. 

 

Reference Level is 85dB average and 105dB peaks (115dB peaks LFE channel) so at 0dB your system should peak at the very loud level of 105dB!

 

So something isn't right.

 

I would run Audyssey in accordance with the 101 Guide and the FAQ (see my signature for links). I would then disable Dynamic Volume (disabled by default in Onkyo - don't know about Denon so check) and enable Dynamic EQ (enabled by default after running Audyssey in Onkyo - again, IDK about Denon so check). Then set your SPL meter to C weighting and Slow response and turn the MV to 0dB, using a movie as content. Choose a movie with some good action scenes as they will play loud. if your SPL meter has a peak hold button, use it as appropriate and see what the peaks measure. You should find that the peaks are now something like 105dB. And you will find it very loud. 

 

I'd delay measuring the room until you have got the AVR working as it should. It is definitely not working properly if it has been calibrated and you are using Audyssey and Dynamic EQ.

 

Please report back after running Audyssey and tell us what you find with Audyssey and DEQ engaged and with the system running in a regular mode - ie NOT Pure Audio or Direct.

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post #6612 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Audiodork View Post
 
 
That is surprising to read. Is the volume disparity the same with Audyssey disengaged? While the 4520 does not have a very impressive amplifier stage, I would be shocked to find out it is less powerful then a SR5008. Due to the type of speakers I use my 4520 has always been in preamp only mode.
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Evidence for that 'fact' is where?

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post #6613 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 06:45 AM
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Thanks! IIRC, yes, Dynamic Volume is on. I'll turn it off and see what changes take place.

With the SR5008, we listened to the television at -55dB and -50dB. With the 4520, currently we're listening at -20dB. It's a huge disparity between the two units and of course, the SR5008 is technologically, the inferior unit.

Tomorrow, I will take the time to learn more about dialing the system in and take a few room measurements so as to see how well XT32/SubEQ HT do with our subwoofers.

-

Hey Beeman458, I too had Dynamic volume on at one point and somebody on here recommended me to try it set to off. When I did that, I loved the bass especially a lot more! Anytime you run audyssey it will automatically turn dynamic volume on, so you will have to turn it off anytime you run it.

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post #6614 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 06:53 AM
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Hey Beeman458, I too had Dynamic volume on at one point and somebody on here recommended me to try it set to off. When I did that, I loved the bass especially a lot more! Anytime you run audyssey it will automatically turn dynamic volume on, so you will have to turn it off anytime you run it.

 

Just for my own personal knowledge base on Audyssey, can someone confirm that in Denons, Audyssey automatically turns on Dynamic Volume after it has been run?  Thanks.

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post #6615 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 06:54 AM
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No,that is not the case on all models. At the end of the Audyssey Setup, the user is asked whether to enable Dynamic Volume or not ... YES/NO.

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post #6616 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 06:56 AM
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No,that is not the case on all models.

 

Thanks JD, so I assume from your reply that it is the case on some models. OK - I will bear that in mind when discussing this aspect of Audyssey wrt to Denons and advise users to check. Thanks again.

 

(It seems an extraordinary choice, BTW).

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post #6617 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 07:01 AM
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No,that is not the case on all models. At the end of the Audyssey Setup, the user is asked whether to enable Dynamic Volume or not ... YES/NO.
Is it dynamic EQ that I am confusing this with?

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post #6618 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 07:03 AM
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Is it dynamic EQ that I am confusing this with?

On my Denon AVR-4311ci it engages both after running audyssey. For the record, I turn off Dyn Volume and leave DEQ on.
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post #6619 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 07:07 AM
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On my Denon AVR-4311ci it engages both after running audyssey. For the record, I turn off Dyn Volume and leave DEQ on.
Sorry, I should have said that I have the 4520. I know one of them is automatically turned on and the other is asked, but I do not remember which one it is.

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post #6620 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 07:44 AM - Thread Starter
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No guys it asks you the question at the end of auto setup. DEQ is turned on automatically but many assume DV is too because it's easy to just click OK at the end of auto setup without trading the actual question.

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post #6621 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


With the SR5008, we listened to the television at -55dB and -50dB. With the 4520, currently we're listening at -20dB. It's a huge disparity between the two units and of course, the SR5008 is technologically, the inferior unit.

-

You almost certainly has Dynamic Volume turned on in the 5008 when watching tv. Most programming would be almost inaudible at -50 without some processing to enhance the lower level content.

The Marantz and Denon lines are basically clones internally. There is no way the lower level model has more power than the higher level model. It's just a difference in one of the many other variables which could be confounding the test. In theory after calibration the two receivers should put out the exact same SPL at the same volume number -- assuming all else is equal (which can be the tricky part with so many settings). Any differences in power would only show up at the very upper limits when one of the units begins to distort.

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post #6622 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 09:34 AM
 
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Technically a 3 dB increase is a doubling of volume, does the receiver actually do that? Of course not.

Just saying. A 3dB increase in power, doubles output but it takes approximately a +10dB to double perceived volume and thanks for your thoughts.
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

When you use Pure Direct you are bypassing both bass management and Audyssey, so your results have to be taken in that context. I assume you have run Audyssey?  If so, assuming the rest of the system is capable, you will get Reference Level at 0dB on the MV.  Most people find Reference Level to be way, way too loud for a domestic room. For example, I listen at what I call 'domestic Reference' which is about -5dB on the MV - this roughly equates to what I believe I hear in a commercial cinema. It is very loud. 

Reference Level is 85dB average and 105dB peaks (115dB peaks LFE channel) so at 0dB your system should peak at the very loud level of 105dB!

So something isn't right.

I would run Audyssey in accordance with the 101 Guide and the FAQ (see my signature for links). I would then disable Dynamic Volume (disabled by default in Onkyo - don't know about Denon so check) and enable Dynamic EQ (enabled by default after running Audyssey in Onkyo - again, IDK about Denon so check). Then set your SPL meter to C weighting and Slow response and turn the MV to 0dB, using a movie as content. Choose a movie with some good action scenes as they will play loud. if your SPL meter has a peak hold button, use it as appropriate and see what the peaks measure. You should find that the peaks are now something like 105dB. And you will find it very loud. 

I'd delay measuring the room until you have got the AVR working as it should. It is definitely not working properly if it has been calibrated and you are using Audyssey and Dynamic EQ.

Please report back after running Audyssey and tell us what you find with Audyssey and DEQ engaged and with the system running in a regular mode - ie NOT Pure Audio or Direct.

Thanks for the above thoughts. Audyssey has been run and the system is a very reference capable system. I didn't realize that Pure Direct disengaged Audyssey, I'll reengage Audyssey and disengage Dynamic Volume.
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post #6624 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Thanks for the above thoughts. Audyssey has been run and the system is a very reference capable system. I didn't realize that Pure Direct disengaged Audyssey, I'll reengage Audyssey and disengage Dynamic Volume.
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post #6625 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post


I've been looking for data for the real distortion numbers from the AVR-4520ci and can't find anything. But, I know the McIntosh gear is around 0.001% THD across the full power spectrum and all audible frequencies.

 

 

I'm still trying to comprehend the original statement that distortion from the 4520 amps becomes "unbearable" at MV -10.  No one else is concerned with this statement?  What is "unbearable"?  .01% THD vs. the McIntosh .001% THD?  What level of THD is audible?

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post #6626 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 10:15 AM
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Thanks for the write up and test but I hope your conclusions are not correct. I listen to music at 85-90 dBs at 13' from the center of my mains which usually puts the mv at between -8 and -18 depending on the recording.
I have 58 year old ears which are far from perfect but I hope they're not bad enough that I'm missing all that distortion. I just can't believe that it's that bad.

Doug

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post #6627 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 10:31 AM
 
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What level of THD is audible?

For some, I think it become audible at 0.1. Anything below 0.08 and my understanding, you're golden.
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post #6628 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

When you use Pure Direct you are bypassing both bass management and Audyssey, so your results have to be taken in that context. I assume you have run Audyssey?  If so, assuming the rest of the system is capable, you will get Reference Level at 0dB on the MV.  Most people find Reference Level to be way, way too loud for a domestic room. For example, I listen at what I call 'domestic Reference' which is about -5dB on the MV - this roughly equates to what I believe I hear in a commercial cinema. It is very loud. 

Reference Level is 85dB average and 105dB peaks (115dB peaks LFE channel) so at 0dB your system should peak at the very loud level of 105dB!

So something isn't right.

I would run Audyssey in accordance with the 101 Guide and the FAQ (see my signature for links). I would then disable Dynamic Volume (disabled by default in Onkyo - don't know about Denon so check) and enable Dynamic EQ (enabled by default after running Audyssey in Onkyo - again, IDK about Denon so check). Then set your SPL meter to C weighting and Slow response and turn the MV to 0dB, using a movie as content. Choose a movie with some good action scenes as they will play loud. if your SPL meter has a peak hold button, use it as appropriate and see what the peaks measure. You should find that the peaks are now something like 105dB. And you will find it very loud. 

I'd delay measuring the room until you have got the AVR working as it should. It is definitely not working properly if it has been calibrated and you are using Audyssey and Dynamic EQ.

Please report back after running Audyssey and tell us what you find with Audyssey and DEQ engaged and with the system running in a regular mode - ie NOT Pure Audio or Direct.

Thanks for the above thoughts. Audyssey has been run and the system is a very reference capable system. I didn't realize that Pure Direct disengaged Audyssey, I'll reengage Audyssey and disengage Dynamic Volume.

 

Please let us know the outcome.

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post #6629 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 12:53 PM
 
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Here's where I'm at with setup. I haven't rerun Audyssey yet. Still working with the original setup and calibration.

I ran through the levels and found them to be five and ten dB low. confused.gif So I'm going give the other Audyssey microphone a try and see what's what with that.

I also find the auto on feature for the subs doesn't work with the 4520 where it worked fine with the SR5008. When the 4520 is turned up to +/- 0dB, the sound is clear/clean and there's not noticeable distortion and my wife's ears aren't hurt. So it seems the 4520, with XT32 gives cleaner sound but I have to figure out why the volume seems to be held back fifteen or twenty dB.

All levels have been turned up to a pink noise level of 75dB but volume still seems to be low when watching a Comcast provided, cable channel movie: "Die Hard 2."

When using the SR5008, I had Dynamic Volume on Low or Light so I set the controls to Dynamic Volume "ON" set to "Light."

I'm replicating the setup with the SR5008. Overall, I find the 4520 sets everything 10dB to 15dB lower than the SR5008.

From research, the SR5008 was tested to 85wpc, all channels driven and the 4520 is tested to 125wpc, all channels driven. Speakers are set to 8ohm.

Baby steps.
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post #6630 of 10700 Old 01-13-2014, 12:58 PM
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BeeMan,

What are you using to measure the soundlevels?

Selden

Marantz SR7009/7.1.4/FH+TM/DefTech PM1000/LCR+TM amped
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