The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 223 - AVS Forum
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post #6661 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post
 
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I have not insulted you. Please do not make such accusations unless you can substantiate them. I accept in advance the apology I am sure you will make for that accusation.

When you put statements like "LOL" talking about contributions to this thread (even if SUBJECTIVE test results), it's insulting. I will not apologize, and I find your replies extremely condescending.
 

 

Really?  The LOL was in response to a post by AustinJerry, not to one by you. Nobody has insulted you in this thread. Your unwillingness to apologize for an unjustified accusations speaks volumes.

 

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 The problem is there is no good lab test results out there from the Denon AVR-4520ci. We can go pull data from the much more expensive Marantz units (like the pearl, which is a $3500 no expense spent amp or the POA-A1 Denon Reference series) and see that in FFT measurements with a 1khz injection shows a >40db 2nd harmonic distortion from both units. You can look at burst tests from the even more expensive Marantz PM-11S3 where these harmonics are significantly less but then review additional burst style testing and observe a recorded 1% distortion (even though the THD-N sweep looked amazing). These simulate music much better since classical music has massive transients throughout, well . . . almost all music has massive transients. All the before mentioned units are major steps up from the AVR-4520ci if you talk to Denon or Marantz designers. Go listen to any of these, I think you would be surprised. We can also look at the rated SNR for the Denon AVR-4520ci and see its stated at 105db (124db on the MC601s).

We can go back and forth trying to compare lab test results from comparable units, but in the end I trust my ears. For the product I'm trying to integrate if the difference is negligible it's gone from my system, if the quality improves it stays.

My posts shouldn't be a set in stone recommendation for ANYONE out there, is is solely my subjective observation trying to create a rough test methodology in house without involving additional test equipment. Could I drag this amplifier to my lab to test it's power quality? Sure. Do I need to? No. Because when I listen to music I'm going to use my ears and nothing else . .

So if anyone is thinking of going to an external amplifier for increased clarity, go bring one in your house, listen and make your own decisions. It took so long for me to even consider one because posts from you, and others on the AVR-4311ci thread mentioning that it would make no difference.

I urge other thread members to not be scared to try another product, just don't be surprised if it doesn't deliver night and day differences across all volume levels. The AVR-4520ci is a damn good product for the price.

Cheers!
 
Like I said, all subjective opinion, presented as fact. You have nothing to say to the objective, factual posts made by myself, batpig and others?  So be it. But simply repeating your opinion with nothing to back it up won't cut a lot of ice in a science forum.
 
EDIT: Selden raises the interesting point that if your unit really is distorting the sound, then it is broken. A lot of people have measured their 4520 units using REW and/or OmniMic and found nothing at all to support your experience. So, as nobody in the thread but you is hearing this distortion, it does seem eminently possible that your unit is broken and therefore should be returned for replacement or repair.
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post #6662 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

kamiraa,

Do you have access to OmniMic or REW?

If so, there's no need to extrapolate from published bench tests. You can measure the quality of the sound that the devices produce in your room, and determine whether or not you have a defective 4520.

Hi Selden,

Yes I have REW and a few mics.

But, I can assure you it's not a defective unit. It's not like I'm hearing it static all over the place. I have sensitive ears and low levels of distortion drive my ears nuts. It just doesn't sound right, and I can feel a fatigue after a few seconds. Usually I listen to my music lower (-25 ish). For certain items I will go higher. I guess I always picked those levels because my ears left safe at those levels, no fatigue after full album listening.

I played around with a local stores AV8801 vs. AVR-4520ci vs. an entry level MA5200 integrated (100 watt). In direct mode I was able to duplicate similar findings on their equipment.

The McIntosh I can go much higher without ear fatigue, but I'm still keeping it reasonable.

But, never the less, when I re-mic the room I'll take some measurements.
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post #6663 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

Hi Selden,

Yes I have REW and a few mics.

But, I can assure you it's not a defective unit. It's not like I'm hearing it static all over the place. I have sensitive ears and low levels of distortion drive my ears nuts. It just doesn't sound right, and I can feel a fatigue after a few seconds. Usually I listen to my music lower (-25 ish). For certain items I will go higher. I guess I always picked those levels because my ears left safe at those levels, no fatigue after full album listening.

I played around with a local stores AV8801 vs. AVR-4520ci vs. a cheaper MA5200 integrated (100 watt). In direct mode I was able to duplicate similar findings on their equipment.

The McIntosh I can go much higher without ear fatigue, but I'm still keeping it reasonable.

Does this mean we might expect some objective measurements from you to demonstrate the massive distortion that you claim to be hearing from the 4520?
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post #6664 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 08:29 AM
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Mate, you have to understand that different forums have different concepts. The gist is that most members in AVS, and this is a big generalisation, don't subscribe to the "amps sound different" idea. It has been debated and fought over and the mods step in and it happens again elsewhere.
I think that the sound improved when I added my MF A 5.5 stereo amp in HT bypass, but I find no need to fight the detractors who don't believe me.
It's ok, I let it slide, and I focus on the many useful tips and info I have learnt from AVS.

Cheers

Like KBarnes, I believe most external power amplifiers are bought because they are wanted, not because they are needed or have a sonic impact on a sound system. All amplifiers do not sound the same. However most of the solid state high fidelity ones do. When noise, distortion and variation from a flat frequency response are in the inaudible range, then audible differences normally result from hearing bias, something that affects all of us. The Denon receivers certainly have inaudible noise, distortion and variation from a flat frequency response. If you were to compare the receiver to the external amp with a bias controlled test, the audible differences would most likely disappear. As a veteran of many such tests, I can say this with confidence.
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post #6665 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

Mate, you have to understand that different forums have different concepts. The gist is that most members in AVS, and this is a big generalisation, don't subscribe to the "amps sound different" idea. It has been debated and fought over and the mods step in and it happens again elsewhere.
I think that the sound improved when I added my MF A 5.5 stereo amp in HT bypass, but I find no need to fight the detractors who don't believe me.
It's ok, I let it slide, and I focus on the many useful tips and info I have learnt from AVS.

Cheers

Good post Pete! That's why I'm not getting to wound up about it. I'm not here to change anyone's opinions, just lend an unbiased hand to a open community.

In the end, I'm not here to impress anyone, sell anything, or lead people off the cliff. I'm here just to enjoy MY system, and if it helps MY system, I'll post my observations.

Have a great week!
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post #6666 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 08:33 AM
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Does this mean we might expect some objective measurements from you to demonstrate the massive distortion that you claim to be hearing from the 4520?

If I get some time I'll take some measurements for sure. It's a curiosity thing after all. I have no problem posting my findings.

But, I'm not going to rush around and try to prove something that my ears have already told me. When I move the sub next month I'll play around before and after. But, I'm not going to turn this into a random argument on a forum.
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post #6667 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 08:33 AM
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You judge the sound quality capability of equipment by weight

Yes. Actually. Compared to even Denon's x08 Series (including the aforementioned 4810), there has been a change. Do not really care that much, but compared to comparably priced Denon models of the past, the amplifier stage has been slightly decontented. So when talking about Class AB AVR's, I do think weight can be an indication.

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post #6668 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 08:55 AM
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^^ If weight equals sound quality, the ultimate Denon AVR would have been the 5805 series. And from this picture on the Denon site, it's every bit as much a behemoth as when I saw it at United Audio Center. At 97 lbs per the spec sheet, I hope you have sturdy shelves:

http://usa.denon.com/us/Product/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?PCatId=AVSolutions(DenonNA)&CatId=AVReceivers(DenonNA)&Pid=AVR5805MK2(DenonNA)

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post #6669 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 09:39 AM
 
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Another question. Since I do not have HDMI connections with the present 5803A I just ran the HDMI cable from the FIOS box to the TV and then an optical audio cable from the FIOS box to the 5803A. For most TV viewing I use the internal TV speakers. For the 4520CI, if I run the HDMI from the FIOS Box to the HDMI Sat/Cable Input and then the HDMI Monitor 1 out to the TV, can I still use the internal TV speakers if I do not power on the 4520? I don't want to turn on the 4520 when I am watching regular programming. Probably an obvious answer such as don't connect it that way but I won't be getting the new unit until the end of the week.

I have things connected the way you suggest.....or I think I do.

I HDMI from the cable box to the #1 HDMI input connection on the flat screen.

I use the optical out from the cable box, to the 4520ci and internally, set the input for the cable box in, to optical.

The blu-ray player is connected, HDMI out from the blu-ray player to the HDMI input on the 4520ci.

Then connect the HDMI out from the 4520ci to the #2 HDMI input connection on the flat screen.

(speakers and subwoofers connected accordingly)

Doing what I suggest in the above, allows for the AVR to reproduce sound or to use the flat screen speakers to produce sound. If the AVR is left off, the choices are, use the cordless headphones or the flat screen speakers. This way the wife has simplicity as all the switching causes her confusion but she's good with the flat screen and cordless headphones.

The rub, when the blu-ray player is used, the user loses use of the headphones and one has to toggle between the connections for the flat screen inputs. Yes. All the toggling is a bit of a pain but doing what I suggest in the above, gives you the connectivity that you ask about.

Hope the above helps with your question.
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post #6670 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

^^ If weight equals sound quality, the ultimate Denon AVR would have been the 5805 series. And from this picture on the Denon site, it's every bit as much a behemoth as when I saw it at United Audio Center. At 97 lbs per the spec sheet, I hope you have sturdy shelves:

http://usa.denon.com/us/Product/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?PCatId=AVSolutions(DenonNA)&CatId=AVReceivers(DenonNA)&Pid=AVR5805MK2(DenonNA)

A reference style amplifier, technically needs a lot of capacitance on the front side. The PS, and cap bank itself eats up a lot of weight. The more power, larger values required, more weight.

Obviously there is a crossover point in benefit vs. size/weight/cost.
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post #6671 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You judge the sound quality capability of equipment by weight

Yes. Actually. Compared to even Denon's x08 Series (including the aforementioned 4810), there has been a change. Do not really care that much, but compared to comparably priced Denon models of the past, the amplifier stage has been slightly decontented. So when talking about Class AB AVR's, I do think weight can be an indication.

 

I can't work out if you are being serious or not... ;)

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post #6672 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

^^ If weight equals sound quality, the ultimate Denon AVR would have been the 5805 series. And from this picture on the Denon site, it's every bit as much a behemoth as when I saw it at United Audio Center. At 97 lbs per the spec sheet, I hope you have sturdy shelves:

http://usa.denon.com/us/Product/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?PCatId=AVSolutions(DenonNA)&CatId=AVReceivers(DenonNA)&Pid=AVR5805MK2(DenonNA)

I use my 4520CI in Preamp Only Mode. I am running an Aragon 8008bb, Parasound 2205AT, and 1000a to drive my speakers. If I was using an AVR to drive my speakers than indeed the 5805 would most likely have the most headroom of Denon AVR's.
Also, I never said a word about SQ. Fool's road to go down...

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I use my 4520CI in Preamp Only Mode. I am running an Aragon 8008bb, Parasound 2205AT, and 1000a to drive my speakers. If I was using an AVR to drive my speakers than indeed the 5805 would most likely have the most headroom of Denon AVR's.

How much headroom are you guys wanting above reference level playback?
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post #6674 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

kamiraa,

Do you have access to OmniMic or REW?

If so, there's no need to extrapolate from published bench tests. You can measure the quality of the sound that the devices produce in your room, and determine whether or not you have a defective 4520.

Hi Selden,

Yes I have REW and a few mics.

But, I can assure you it's not a defective unit. It's not like I'm hearing it static all over the place. I have sensitive ears and low levels of distortion drive my ears nuts. It just doesn't sound right, and I can feel a fatigue after a few seconds. Usually I listen to my music lower (-25 ish). For certain items I will go higher. I guess I always picked those levels because my ears left safe at those levels, no fatigue after full album listening.

I played around with a local stores AV8801 vs. AVR-4520ci vs. an entry level MA5200 integrated (100 watt). In direct mode I was able to duplicate similar findings on their equipment.

The McIntosh I can go much higher without ear fatigue, but I'm still keeping it reasonable.

But, never the less, when I re-mic the room I'll take some measurements.

 

There is definitely something wrong somewhere if you experience listening fatigue after a "few seconds" and if you can only listen at relatively low levels without hearing distortion. Neither of these should apply with a unit like the 4530, and it is significant that nobody else is reporting this, or anything like it. The first instinct would be a broken unit.  I am sure everyone will look forward to your measurement results.

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post #6675 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 10:04 AM
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Fellow came to my house with a hard drive. We hooked up with USB. Guess NTFS isn't compatible? Just sat there waiting for network.

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post #6676 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

Hi Selden,

Yes I have REW and a few mics.

But, I can assure you it's not a defective unit. It's not like I'm hearing it static all over the place. I have sensitive ears and low levels of distortion drive my ears nuts. It just doesn't sound right, and I can feel a fatigue after a few seconds. Usually I listen to my music lower (-25 ish). For certain items I will go higher. I guess I always picked those levels because my ears left safe at those levels, no fatigue after full album listening.

I played around with a local stores AV8801 vs. AVR-4520ci vs. a cheaper MA5200 integrated (100 watt). In direct mode I was able to duplicate similar findings on their equipment.

The McIntosh I can go much higher without ear fatigue, but I'm still keeping it reasonable.

Does this mean we might expect some objective measurements from you to demonstrate the massive distortion that you claim to be hearing from the 4520?

 

I hope so, but I'd bet you $10 we won't ever see any. My conviction at this stage is that it is not possible, unless his unit is broken. A properly performing system should be able to play at movie Reference Level (105dB peaks, 115dB peaks LFE) with no listener fatigue at all, even after hours of listening. The 4520 should be able to play at more than -25dB MV with zero audible distortion. Something is very wrong. 

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post #6677 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

Mate, you have to understand that different forums have different concepts. The gist is that most members in AVS, and this is a big generalisation, don't subscribe to the "amps sound different" idea. It has been debated and fought over and the mods step in and it happens again elsewhere.
I think that the sound improved when I added my MF A 5.5 stereo amp in HT bypass, but I find no need to fight the detractors who don't believe me.
It's ok, I let it slide, and I focus on the many useful tips and info I have learnt from AVS.

Cheers

Like KBarnes, I believe most external power amplifiers are bought because they are wanted, not because they are needed or have a sonic impact on a sound system. All amplifiers do not sound the same. However most of the solid state high fidelity ones do. When noise, distortion and variation from a flat frequency response are in the inaudible range, then audible differences normally result from hearing bias, something that affects all of us. The Denon receivers certainly have inaudible noise, distortion and variation from a flat frequency response. If you were to compare the receiver to the external amp with a bias controlled test, the audible differences would most likely disappear. As a veteran of many such tests, I can say this with confidence.

 

100% +1. His 4520 must be broken. Or something. I do hope he didn't rush out and spend $14,000 on an alternative amplifier instead of returning a broken unit for replacement or repair!

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post #6678 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 10:06 AM
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How much headroom are you guys wanting above reference level playback?

This whole thing is getting twisted. This whole thing stemmed from a question directed elsewhere about a Marantz SR seemingly having more power than their 4520. Something that still does not make sense to me.

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post #6679 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 10:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Fellow came to my house with a hard drive. We hooked up with USB. Guess NTFS isn't compatible? Just sat there waiting for network.

No, FAT format only IIRC. It's discussed in the manual.
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post #6680 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 10:08 AM
 
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I have sensitive ears and low levels of distortion drive my ears nuts. It just doesn't sound right, and I can feel a fatigue after a few seconds.

Do you have any horns in your speaker system. The reason I ask, the horn bells could need some damping material applied to reduce distortion due to horn vibration.
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post #6681 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 10:12 AM
 
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This whole thing is getting twisted.

I'm sure your above is not directed to my question as I don't know about what you're referencing. Can anybody answer the question I posed as to how much headroom are you guys wanting above continual reference playback levels?
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post #6682 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 10:23 AM
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I'm sure your above is not directed to my question as I don't know about what you're referencing. Can anybody answer the question I posed as to how much headroom are you guys wanting above continual reference playback levels?

Not to worry there. Obvs if reference levels (or whatever level decided as such by the end user) can be achieved with the internal amplifiers, it begins and ends there.

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post #6683 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 10:30 AM
 
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Not to worry there. Obvs if reference levels (or whatever level decided as such by the end user) can be achieved with the internal amplifiers, it begins and ends there.

Thanks! The way the post read that was the genesis of my question, gave me the impression that folks here wanted a boatload of headroom above continuous reference level playback capability.

Our front three are 100db/99dB/100dB sensitivity. And with room reinforcement, I average them at 90dB/4m sensitivity and would expect that it will take 32wpc to obtain 105dB playback and the 4520ci is capable of 125wpc continuous (6dB headroom above reference playback), all channels driven, at a nominal 8ohms. With the 4520ci having 4ohm capability, based on the above, I expect that it's more than enough amplifier to keep up with continuous reference level playback.

...confused.gif

(at just a week old, I'm new to this receiver and still getting to know it's capabilities)

-
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post #6684 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 10:44 AM
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I am guessing about any AVR would drive your front stage to reference levels and beyond. That is awesome and my next speakers will be efficient. I am using Martin Logan Vantages, Stage, Vista, and Montages for my speaker array and aside from the Montages I would be reticent to use the 4520 to drive them.

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post #6685 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 10:52 AM
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I am guessing about any AVR would drive your front stage to reference levels and beyond. That is awesome and my next speakers will be efficient. I am using Martin Logan Vantages, Stage, Vista, and Montages for my speaker array and aside from the Montages I would be reticent to use the 4520 to drive them.

 

I do like sensitive speakers - they have a great sense of dynamic range and reduce the requirements for amplification to nice, easy levels that pretty much any modern AVR can accomplish, as you suggest. Combined with good power handling, they can bring a terrific sense of huge dynamics and excitement to a HT, especially on those high-demand peaks when played loud. Sensitivity is always one of the big factors for me when choosing speakers.

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post #6686 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 10:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Audiodork View Post

...I would be reticent to use the 4520 to drive them.

...confused.gif

Why? It's suppose to have the guts of the Marantz AV8801 pre/pro. Are you saying the 4520's amplifier section is not refined enough for the Martin Logan series of speakers?

...confused.gif

(i love the Martin Logan series)
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post #6687 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 12:12 PM
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How much headroom are you guys wanting above reference level playback?

THX reference level includes the headroom. Your system doesn't need to go beyond 105 db ever in order to meet the specification.
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post #6688 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

...confused.gif

Why? It's suppose to have the guts of the Marantz AV8801 pre/pro. Are you saying the 4520's amplifier section is not refined enough for the Martin Logan series of speakers?

...confused.gif

(i love the Martin Logan series)

Martin Logan speakers are hard to drive, the Montis can drop to nearly 0.52 ohm at its top range (20khz). I still think the AVR-4520ci should be able to drive it though, its a 4 ohm rated setup. Martin Logan did re-design work on their last line and said they are compatible to be ran by all 4ohm amps.
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post #6689 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

100% +1. His 4520 must be broken. Or something. I do hope he didn't rush out and spend $14,000 on an alternative amplifier instead of returning a broken unit for replacement or repair!

I agree with his statement. I wanted them like I want most things. I spent hours looking at the amps and said this is ridiculous wasting so much time looking at something, let me purchase a pair, test them and if the delta improvement is not worth it they will be resold. Basically, get it out of my mind, so I stop wasting time.

McIntosh for the most part has an extremely high resell rate, so I wasn't risking much. I honestly figured I would purchase these, test them to get it out of my "system", and they would be sold 2-3 months later.

I hate open ended questions, such as "will this create an improvement" So I dropped the dime, and tested like much equipment before this.

I calculated I would need more power in the near future, my current room is 22ft by 15ft. My next room will be significantly bigger so having more power is never a bad thing.

The next upgrade will be moving over to an AV8801 only for the balanced outputs, no other reason but noise rejection. Anyways, that's the jest of everything.
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post #6690 of 8741 Old 01-15-2014, 12:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post

THX reference level includes the headroom. Your system doesn't need to go beyond 105 db ever in order to meet the specification.

Oh good. The last time I drove the system to max reference (100dB to 110dB) everything acted as if they wanted to jump off the shelves. tongue.gif

(FOTP, the barrel roll during the crash scene, MVC set to +/-0dB)

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