The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 231 - AVS Forum
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post #6901 of 10772 Old 01-31-2014, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wysiwygbg View Post

...You say that the "passive crossover inside the speaker is going to do the work of filtering out the relevant frequencies", however in the speaker's manual it is stated that in Bi-Amp mode the passive crossover for the low/high frequencies is not used at all - it is hardwarely disabled/skipped when you remove the metallic plate that connects the knobs you connect the cables to. So I assume this will have to have "some" improvement in the quality, however small it could be...

No that is not at all how I'd interpret what your OM says, which is:

"The outer connection panel and internal dividing network of the
TL260 is designed so that separate sets of speaker cables can be
attached to the low-frequency transducer and midrange/high-
frequency transducer portions of this dividing network. This is
called bi-wiring. Bi-wiring can provide several sonic advantages

and considerably more flexibility in power amplifier selection."

 

This looksto be no different than any standard biwirable speaker's crossover though the verbiage varies from one OEM to another. You'll find some language about biamping increasing SQ in your Denon OM as well.  My Dali MS5s are triwirable! 

 

But here's the bottom line-if removing the jumper actually disabled the HPF from the tweets, JBL would have to issue a bold warning in the OM that you must have an active HPF in the signal path to the tweets to protect them from the low freqs that will easily blow them. The tweets have to be protected-that is the function of the xover, and that function is not disabled by removing the jumpers.

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post #6902 of 10772 Old 02-01-2014, 06:35 AM
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When listening to Pandora, I've noticed almost exclusively commercial free air time. Does anyone know if D&M made licensing arrangements to offer this wonderful option to their customers? If so, I applaud them.
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post #6903 of 10772 Old 02-01-2014, 06:38 AM
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Not sure of any arrangement, but certainly much better than the constant commercials when using a laptop. I went for over 6 months without any commercials on my X4000 at all and then one day an AT&T commercial popped up about once an hour and then a few weeks later Pandora's own commercial to upgrade to Pandora One popped up every 30 minutes or so. As I listen to it 6-8 hours/day I decided that it was worth making the $40 1 year subscription for Pandora One to support the company. No change in audio quality using th AVR, but it is commercial free.

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post #6904 of 10772 Old 02-01-2014, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post

Oh, right. Duh. Yeah, you are right. Of course I will yield to the Grandmaster. tongue.gif

I remember seeing that and wondering why I'd ever buy an amplifier if even at peak levels I wasn't using even 10% of the 4520 output. Thinking that perhaps the addition of an Emotiva or similar would be a perception improvement only.

Unless you room is big and you listen very loud your thinking is likely in the right direction. Base on past bench tests of Denon mid range AVRs I am quite confident the 4520 can output more than 140W per channel both channel driven and likely exceed 200W into a 4 ohm load. With 7 channel driven, it's output will probably be closer to 100 to 120W per channel into 8 ohm. Definitely not 20W, but people who want to sell you external amp may tell you that and would be almost understandable.
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post #6905 of 10772 Old 02-01-2014, 07:05 AM
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I'm willing to bet at least 100W into 7 channels.

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post #6906 of 10772 Old 02-01-2014, 07:11 AM
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I'll call your 100W and raise you 5W. smile.gif

Denon AVRs on average can put out about 65-70% of marketed power rating (ie. 150W) into 7CH.

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post #6907 of 10772 Old 02-01-2014, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wysiwygbg View Post


You say that the "passive crossover inside the speaker is going to do the work of filtering out the relevant frequencies", however in the speaker's manual it is stated that in Bi-Amp mode the passive crossover for the low/high frequencies is not used at all - it is hardwarely disabled/skipped when you remove the metallic plate that connects the knobs you connect the cables to.

 

I am trying to picture in my mind the internal circuitry of the speaker that would take the passive crossover out of the loop by simply removing the jumper straps between the binding posts.  Does the user's manual have a circuit schematic that you could share with us?  What make/model speakers are these?

 

And also to the point, if the passive crossover in the speaker is disabled. as alleged, and there is no active crossover between the pre and power amps (which there isn’t in this case) then what precisely would be doing the crossover?  Something has to send HF to the tweeter and Mid/low to the woofer, so if it isn't the speaker crossover any more, then what is it?  The answer, of course, as I know you know, is that the crossover in the speaker is not bypassed by the simple act of removing the jumper strap on the back of the speaker.

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post #6908 of 10772 Old 02-01-2014, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
 
Well, it is what it is. Being able to backup and restore configuration files is a tremendous advantage. Ask an Onkyo owner if they would be unhappy being able to save configurations if it took 10 minutes. If this were something you needed to do ten times a day, then I agree, ten minutes would be tedious. But you save a configuration file occasionally, so I'm just not understanding why you think it is absolutely inadequate.

 

You can ask me, as an Onkyo owner, and I'd tell you that I would willingly trade some of the "less useful" features of my Onkyo 5509 for the ability to backup the configuration over the network, even if it took twice as long as Denon's 10 minutes. 

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post #6909 of 10772 Old 02-01-2014, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

And also to the point, if the passive crossover in the speaker is disabled. as alleged, and there is no active crossover between the pre and power amps (which there isn’t in this case) then what precisely would be doing the crossover?  Something has to send HF to the tweeter and Mid/low to the woofer, so if it isn't the speaker crossover any more, then what is it?  The answer, of course, as I know you know, is that the crossover in the speaker is not bypassed by the simple act of removing the jumper strap on the back of the speaker.

I think either he misread the manual or the manual misstated. The crossover has got to be still in use but are separated such that part of it would be connected to the bass or mid and bass drivers and the other part (half?) to the tweeter or tweeter and mid range driver(s). That would provide two separate paths for the signal to flow from the amp terminals to the split speaker terminals, whether the effect is audible or not is another debate, most people think not. I also am sure you know that already.
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post #6910 of 10772 Old 02-01-2014, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avman09 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

And also to the point, if the passive crossover in the speaker is disabled. as alleged, and there is no active crossover between the pre and power amps (which there isn’t in this case) then what precisely would be doing the crossover?  Something has to send HF to the tweeter and Mid/low to the woofer, so if it isn't the speaker crossover any more, then what is it?  The answer, of course, as I know you know, is that the crossover in the speaker is not bypassed by the simple act of removing the jumper strap on the back of the speaker.

I think either he misread the manual or the manual misstated. The crossover has got to be still in use but are separated such that part of it would be connected to the bass or mid and bass drivers and the other part (half?) to the tweeter or tweeter and mid range driver(s). That would provide two separate paths for the signal to flow from the amp terminals to the split speaker terminals, whether the effect is audible or not is another debate, most people think not. I also am sure you know that already.

 

And each amp channel is sending a full range signal.

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post #6911 of 10772 Old 02-01-2014, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avman09 View Post

I think either he misread the manual or the manual misstated. The crossover has got to be still in use but are separated such that part of it would be connected to the bass or mid and bass drivers and the other part (half?) to the tweeter or tweeter and mid range driver(s). That would provide two separate paths for the signal to flow from the amp terminals to the split speaker terminals, whether the effect is audible or not is another debate, most people think not. I also am sure you know that already.

Yes. Apparently I've misread the manual - the crossover is not "disabled", but is working only for the "high" frequency part of the speaker, and the "low" frequency part is directly connected to the second Amp of the receiver.

In this configuration the speaker should get the power from one amp for bass (no filter/crossover there, so full-range) and another amp for the mids+tweeter (with their dedicated filter/crossover, again full-range), which in the end should do something like "double" the power to the speaker?
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post #6912 of 10772 Old 02-01-2014, 09:19 AM
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^The entire biwire/biamp issue has been covered many times in these threads and there are few who feel that such "passive biamping" using two amp channels of the AVR is audibly beneficial.  Especially if one is using true biamping, i.e., a powered sub to handle the most power-hungry and demanding lower bass freqs, fed its own signal from an active xover to relieve the speaker and the AVR of the most challenging tasks. (edit-added: in your case I assume you have a powered sub and the 12" woofer in the speaker is what benefits from not having to manage the very low freqs.) 

 

As to doubling the power, you are actually simply providing the availability for more power, limited of course by the design by which all the amps are all supplied by a single power supply in the AVR.  But to what advantage? The tweeter uses only tiny amounts of power (under 1W), far less than midrange woofer drivers. 

 

So it may or may not help SQ, but passive biamping won't do any harm. 


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post #6913 of 10772 Old 02-01-2014, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

... "passive biamping" ...
Isn't this active bi-amping? Passive bi-amping is when you use a single amp, but 2 pairs of wires to the speaker, if I'm not mistaken?
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Especially if one is using true biamping, i.e., a powered sub to handle the most power-hungry and demanding lower bass freqs, fed its own signal from an active xover to relieve the speaker and the AVR of the most challenging tasks.
How is using a powered sub connected to any type of bi-amping? It is a different speaker.
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As to doubling the power, you are actually simply providing the availability for more power, limited of course by the design by which all the amps are all supplied by a single power supply in the AVR.
How does the fact that the amps are all supplied by a single power supply connected to the output power of the amps themselves? A single amp is supposedly outputting up to 150W on the 4520, so bi-amping on 2 different amps should mean thiss output is doubled - 150W to the bass, and another 150W to the tweeter+mids of the speaker.
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But to what advantage? The tweeter uses only  tiny amounts of power  (under 1W), far less than midrange/woofer drivers.
Yes - the tweeter uses only ~1W, but in the speakers I'm talking about (JBL TL260) the bi-amping is not powering only the bass and only the tweeter, but the bass (1st amp) and the tweeter+mids (2nd amp), which if we look at the satellite speakers of the same JBL series (the Studio L830), which has the same sized speakers as the 260's mids+tweeter, that should mean this part of the 260's is at least 90W.

Am I missreading something again? smile.gif
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post #6914 of 10772 Old 02-01-2014, 10:25 AM
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I cannot post anymore right now, I have to leave to moderate a clinical presentation. Others may be able to address the details or I'll take this up later.  And most of this info is readily available via search.


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post #6915 of 10772 Old 02-01-2014, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

... "passive biamping" ...
Isn't this active bi-amping? Passive bi-amping is when you use a single amp, but 2 pairs of wires to the speaker, if I'm not mistaken?
You're describing bi-wiring, which also provides no enhancement to the quality of the sound you hear. When bi-wiring changes the sound, it's because of distortions introduced by the "special" bi-wiring cables.
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Especially if one is using true biamping, i.e., a powered sub to handle the most power-hungry and demanding lower bass freqs, fed its own signal from an active xover to relieve the speaker and the AVR of the most challenging tasks.
How is using a powered sub connected to any type of bi-amping? It is a different speaker.

What's different is that when bass management is enabled, the frequencies sent to the subwoofer are not sent to the other speaker amplifier channels at all. (Of course, that's a slight exaggeration: the crossover filters aren't brick-walls.) Passive bi-amping still sends all frequencies to both of the amps driving the high frequency drivers and the low frequency drivers. Active bi-amping uses external active (digital) crossover networks to ensure that only the desired frequencies are sent to the appropriate amps and thus to the speaker drivers connected to those amps.
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As to doubling the power, you are actually simply providing the availability for more power, limited of course by the design by which all the amps are all supplied by a single power supply in the AVR.
How does the fact that the amps are all supplied by a single power supply connected to the output power of the amps themselves? A single amp is supposedly outputting up to 150W on the 4520, so bi-amping on 2 different amps should mean thiss output is doubled - 150W to the bass, and another 150W to the tweeter+mids of the speaker.
The total power available to all of the receiver's internal amps is limited by the receiver's single power supply which they all share in common. The only way to avoid this kind of limitation is to use separate monoblock amps, each with its own power supply. No currently available receiver has a power supply that's actually large enough to drive all of its amps to full capacity simultaneously. The least expensive receviers can barely provide enough power to drive a single amp channel at its rated power. Very few soundtracks actually would put that kind of stress on the receiver, of course.
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But to what advantage? The tweeter uses only  tiny amounts of power  (under 1W), far less than midrange/woofer drivers.
Yes - the tweeter uses only ~1W, but in the speakers I'm talking about (JBL TL260) the bi-amping is not powering only the bass and only the tweeter, but the bass (1st amp) and the tweeter+mids (2nd amp), which if we look at the satellite speakers of the same JBL series (the Studio L830), which has the same sized speakers as the 260's mids+tweeter, that should mean this part of the 260's is at least 90W.

Am I missreading something again? smile.gif

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post #6916 of 10772 Old 02-01-2014, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

And each amp channel is sending a full range signal.

Not quite, one will send mostly low frequencies because the mid/hi are getting blocked to a point though not totally (not a brick wall) by the part of the separated crossover, likewis the other amp won't be sending full range either.
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post #6918 of 10772 Old 02-01-2014, 05:16 PM - Thread Starter
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No. Each channel in the receiver is outputting a duplicate full range signal. What happens downstream in terms of the speaker's crossover isn't relevant in that context.

Or to think of it another way, the receiver itself isn't applying separate filtering to each "half" of the biamped signal it outputs.

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post #6919 of 10772 Old 02-01-2014, 05:40 PM
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Each channel is outputting the same full range signal - voltage wise only. The speakers separate passive crossover sections will affect the current drawn from each channel differently. The 'bass channel' will output lower frequency current signals, whilst the 'high/mid channel' will output higher frequency current signals. The two channels will output different overall power levels given by V x I. Generally the mid/high channel will be called upon to output less power than the bass channel.
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FWIW, at full reference, 5.2, the top of the 4520 doesn't get hot to the touch as was the case with the Marantz SR5007 that was recently replaced with the 4520.

Each channel in the 4520 is discreet so what ever is happening on the one channel, does not impact what's happening on the other channels. And with the speakers crossed over at 80Hz, all the heavy duty bass duty is shifted to the subs.

Properly set up, this is a screaming good AVR with, my understanding, (9.2 channel vs 11.2 channel) the guts of the Marantz AV8801. What am I missing or not understanding?

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post #6921 of 10772 Old 02-02-2014, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

And each amp channel is sending a full range signal.

Not quite, one will send mostly low frequencies because the mid/hi are getting blocked to a point though not totally (not a brick wall) by the part of the separated crossover, likewis the other amp won't be sending full range either.

 

Not correct. There is no active crossover in the AVR so a full range signal is always sent.

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post #6922 of 10772 Old 02-02-2014, 06:58 AM
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Not correct. There is no active crossover in the AVR so a full range signal is always sent.

Not quite. If not using pure direct, is it still a full range signal?

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post #6923 of 10772 Old 02-02-2014, 07:09 AM
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Not full range per se as the crossover to the sub is still taken into account if the speakers are set to SMALL/80Hz. However, the point is the same exact signal is passed to the "bi-amp" speaker posts as is passed to the Front A speaker posts (ie. doesn't matter which set of AVR speaker posts you connect to either the HF or LF posts on the speaker).

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post #6924 of 10772 Old 02-02-2014, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
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Not correct. There is no active crossover in the AVR so a full range signal is always sent.

Not quite. If not using pure direct, is it still a full range signal?

 

What JD said :)

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post #6925 of 10772 Old 02-02-2014, 07:28 AM
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Here is a link to a PDF article from Electro-Voice that provides information about "Crossovers and Biamping".

www.electrovoice.com/downloadfile.php?i=2325
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^^^^^^^^^^^^
The Bi-amp configurations referred to in that article would commonly be called Active Bi-amp - as an Active Low-Level crossover is employed between pre-amp and power-amp stages.
What has been briefly discussed here would be called Passive Bi-amp.
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post #6927 of 10772 Old 02-02-2014, 08:10 AM
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You know what's boring? Another conversation about passive biamping in this thread. It comes up every time someone realizes they can do it and posts up a question about it without researching it. Just do a search. You will see why 150+150 does not equal 300 when it comes to biamping using only the AVR's amps. You will also learn how few watts you probably need to make your ears bleed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Not correct. There is no active crossover in the AVR so a full range signal is always sent.

Sorry you are incorrect. As AV_Mike said, the voltage at the amp output will be full range but not the current. Consider this, if you have the amp turned on but the speaker wires disconnected at the speaker terminals so the impedance seen by the amp is infinite and you would agree that current will be zero meaning there will be no signal flow in the wires right? Similarly, the high impedance imposed by the high pass filter of the tweeter/crossover will limit the lower frequency signals so the amp is unable to send a full range signal. Remember current flows need a complete path, i.e. 2 wires, the amp just cannot send a low frequency signal to the speaker terminal with no return path. So if it gets blocked due to the high impedance of that particular frequency, there will no flow, period. Of course in reality filters are not brick walls so they don't block 100% of any unwanted signal.

I understand this concept is not always easy to understand unless one has a solid background in electrical circuit theories but it is a fact. Don't believe me, but ask someone you know who teaches circuit theory or EE friends who know circuit theory well.
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post #6929 of 10772 Old 02-02-2014, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Not full range per se as the crossover to the sub is still taken into account if the speakers are set to SMALL/80Hz. However, the point is the same exact signal is passed to the "bi-amp" speaker posts as is passed to the Front A speaker posts (ie. doesn't matter which set of AVR speaker posts you connect to either the HF or LF posts on the speaker).

With due respect JD this time you are not correct. The signal sent by each amp (we are tallking passive biamping) to each pair of speaker terminals with the jumper removed are different. They have to be different because each amp sees a different filter at the other end. I am not saying that would result in sound quality difference at all. I am just defending electrical circuit theory.
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post #6930 of 10772 Old 02-02-2014, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by avman09 View Post
 
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Not correct. There is no active crossover in the AVR so a full range signal is always sent.

Sorry you are incorrect. As AV_Mike said, the voltage at the amp output will be full range but not the current. Consider this, if you have the amp turned on but the speaker wires disconnected at the speaker terminals so the impedance seen by the amp is infinite and you would agree that current will be zero meaning there will be no signal flow in the wires right? Similarly, the high impedance imposed by the high pass filter of the tweeter/crossover will limit the lower frequency signals so the amp is unable to send a full range signal. Remember current flows need a complete path, i.e. 2 wires, the amp just cannot send a low frequency signal to the speaker terminal with no return path. So if it gets blocked due to the high impedance of that particular frequency, there will no flow, period. Of course in reality filters are not brick walls so they don't block 100% of any unwanted signal.

I understand this concept is not always easy to understand unless one has a solid background in electrical circuit theories but it is a fact. Don't believe me, but ask someone you know who teaches circuit theory or EE friends who know circuit theory well.

 

I am saying that a full range signal is sent from the AVR, which it is. What happens downstream isn't relevant to this discussion, although clearly you are right that if the speakers are disconnected zero signal will flow.  The point is, which you seem to be missing, that the passive biamping of the speakers serves no purpose because  proper biamping requires an active crossover between the pre and power amps, which is not the case in the situation under discussion. Similarly, removal of the speaker jumper straps will not somehow bring about biamping and will not cause the signal from the AVR to be split in frequencies in any way at all - hence the assertion that a full range signal is being sent. The technical considerations you mention are interesting but not relevant to the matter at hand.

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