The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 232 - AVS Forum
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post #6931 of 11006 Old 02-02-2014, 08:44 AM
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avman09,

I think you're splitting hairs. The voltage signal provided by the AVR's amps (when bass management is disabled) has the full bandwidth audio. The high-pass and low pass filters in the speakers are what minimize the current flow, not something in the AVR. Without those in-speaker filters, full current would flow at all frequencies. In contrast, when filters are placed between the preamps and the amps (which is what is done in active bi-amping), the amps would not deliver any voltages at out-of-bandpass frequencies.

edited to add

Of course, Keith managed to beat me to this comment, but I'll leave it since the viewpoint is slightly different.

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post #6932 of 11006 Old 02-02-2014, 08:58 AM
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^^
What they both said. smile.gif

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post #6933 of 11006 Old 02-02-2014, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

avman09,

I think you're splitting hairs. The voltage signal provided by the AVR's amps (when bass management is disabled) has the full bandwidth audio. The high-pass and low pass filters in the speakers are what minimize the current flow, not something in the AVR. Without those in-speaker filters, full current would flow at all frequencies. In contrast, when filters are placed between the preamps and the amps (which is what is done in active bi-amping), the amps would not deliver any voltages at out-of-bandpass frequencies.

edited to add

Of course, Keith managed to beat me to this comment, but I'll leave it since the viewpoint is slightly different.

Now you did say without those in-speaker filters full current would flow at all frequencies so I hope we can all agree that with the in-speaker filters remain as they are in passive biamp scenario, full current would NOT flow at all frequencies and that is all I am saying. If that is splitting hair okay then maybe it is, I can go along with that though I thought it needed to be clear. Thanks!
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post #6934 of 11006 Old 02-02-2014, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I am saying that a full range signal is sent from the AVR, which it is. What happens downstream isn't relevant to this discussion, although clearly you are right that if the speakers are disconnected zero signal will flow.  The point is, which you seem to be missing, that the passive biamping of the speakers serves no purpose because  proper biamping requires an active crossover between the pre and power amps, which is not the case in the situation under discussion. Similarly, removal of the speaker jumper straps will not somehow bring about biamping and will not cause the signal from the AVR to be split in frequencies in any way at all - hence the assertion that a full range signal is being sent. The technical considerations you mention are interesting but not relevant to the matter at hand.

I did not miss that point at all regarding active vs passive, I was focussed on the statements about "full range being sent....", to me that implied sending downstream from the amp output (vs input). Now I've been told I was splitting hair so I guess that's the problem from start.
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post #6935 of 11006 Old 02-02-2014, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Seriously, you are splitting hairs. The two separate signals sent to each pair of amps are NOT FILTERED SEPARATELY BY THE RECEIVER. The filtering happens downstream. Each amp channel receives an identical duplicated signal from the processor. That is all that matters in the context of this discussion.

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post #6936 of 11006 Old 02-02-2014, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Seriously, you are splitting hairs. The two separate signals sent to each pair of amps are NOT FILTERED SEPARATELY BY THE RECEIVER. The filtering happens downstream. Each amp channel receives an identical duplicated signal from the processor. That is all that matters in the context of this discussion.

bp, of course the two separate signals are not filtered by the receiver coz there is no sucha filter in the receiver, that's true, but let's stop here for a moment. First of all in electronics we don't use words like "upstream" and "downstream". In this very case this is a closed circuit consisting of the following components:

Power output -> Hi-pass filter in speaker box -> tweeter, and
Power output -> Lo-pass filter in speaker box -> woofer

These above make up one circuit, regardless of where the filter is physically located, or in other words, circuit wise it doesn't matter whether the HP/LP filters are in the AVR's box or in the speaker's box as long as they form a closed circuit.

avman is not splitting hair, he's just trying to put you guys on the right track! Hope this helps. smile.gif Take care! smile.gif
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post #6937 of 11006 Old 02-02-2014, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Jesus. Nobody is disputing the technical details. You guys are completely missing the point. You have added absolutely nothing besides perpetuating this silly, unnecessary side discussion. Enjoy yourself.
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post #6938 of 11006 Old 02-02-2014, 02:53 PM
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So, very useful discussion, in my opinion, about the passive bi-amping. Since I'm an electrician, I understand exactly what @mogorf and @avman are saying about the closed circuit in this case. What I do not understand is - why the hell, since the AVR is an audio processor, it can't actually process the correct frequencies for the bi-amped speakers? It can process 2 channels into more channels, but can't split a simple digital signal into two different signals - one containing the high frequencies and the other - the low frequencies... That's a bit stupid if correct - it's a simple math problem that should be easily calculated by the audio system's processor. Also you're saying that the hardware frequency filters are not "brick walls", however a digital frequency filter is/could be a brick (or even adamantium) wall.
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post #6939 of 11006 Old 02-02-2014, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wysiwygbg View Post

So, very useful discussion, in my opinion, about the passive bi-amping. Since I'm an electrician, I understand exactly what @mogorf and @avman are saying about the closed circuit in this case. What I do not understand is - why the hell, since the AVR is an audio processor, it can't actually process the correct frequencies for the bi-amped speakers? It can process 2 channels into more channels, but can't split a simple digital signal into two different signals - one containing the high frequencies and the other - the low frequencies... That's a bit stupid if correct - it's a simple math problem that should be easily calculated by the audio system's processor. Also you're saying that the hardware frequency filters are not "brick walls", however a digital frequency filter is/could be a brick (or even adamantium) wall.

As far as I know it's the Onkyo 818 that offers digital crossover on-board the AVR the way you described above. But I could be wrong. cool.gif
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post #6940 of 11006 Old 02-02-2014, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wysiwygbg View Post

So, very useful discussion, in my opinion, about the passive bi-amping. Since I'm an electrician, I understand exactly what @mogorf and @avman are saying about the closed circuit in this case. What I do not understand is - why the hell, since the AVR is an audio processor, it can't actually process the correct frequencies for the bi-amped speakers? It can process 2 channels into more channels, but can't split a simple digital signal into two different signals - one containing the high frequencies and the other - the low frequencies... That's a bit stupid if correct - it's a simple math problem that should be easily calculated by the audio system's processor. Also you're saying that the hardware frequency filters are not "brick walls", however a digital frequency filter is/could be a brick (or even adamantium) wall.

 

It could be, as you say, but the AVR manufacturers have decided not to include active crossovers in their units and that's that. The Onkyo 818 has active XOs but, AFAIK, it is unique in that respect and I have no idea how well implemented they are.

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post #6941 of 11006 Old 02-02-2014, 03:39 PM
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My point is - I can do it manually in software, for example in Sony Vegas. I can filter any 8-channel FLAC file into 10-channel, filtering it however I want, but I can't pass it through HDMI, because of 8-channel limit. Why can't the 2013, 21st century, at least 7 years since digital processing was integrated into AV receivers, do it internally for Bi-Amp setups?
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post #6942 of 11006 Old 02-02-2014, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Because they don't need to, receiver bi-ampiing exists as a marketing feature targeting towards people who feet about "wasting" amp channels. It's no accident that this "feature" came into existence when 7ch receivers became ubiquitous but everyone was still running 5.1 setups; it created a new class of AVR consumer who felt like they were wasting money on extra amp channels.

Obviously they COULD implement an additional layer of digital filters and do active splitting of the signal before it ever hits the amps, but that would require additional resources in terms of engineering and DSP which wouldn't translate into any new sales because the current implementation satifies the needs of those who use and don't know any better.

I also don't think it's as trivial as you are making it out to be -- how would the receiver know at what frequency to filter the signal into high / low portions? Every speaker is going to be different, so would that require another calibration step where it pings the high / low portions of the speaker separately and then calibrates a second crossover point? Or else have just a user adjustable filter? And how do you know the slope should be on each end of the filter? The internal crossover of the speaker has been custom designed and optimized to work with the driver configuration.

The point isn't that it's impossible to do it the "right" way, but Implementing it would require SOME resources on the part of the manufacturer that wouldn't have a positive ROI. It's a margin driven business and they aren't going to waste their time engineering solutions to problems for what amounts to a tiny niche who cares.

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post #6943 of 11006 Old 02-02-2014, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by flyguyjake View Post

I'm running all Klipsch reference speakers. Do I need an emotiva amp? Now y'all got me scared! lol I bought this 4520ci because of it's rated per channel output. If I added an external amp, would I notice a difference? I did notice a huge difference going from dolby 5.1 to dts-hd.

This 4520ci replaced a failing 4308ci and I immediately noticed a huge improvement.

My guess is that you wouldn't benefit from an Emotiva amp with your Klipsch speakers...That said, I started a thread in the Audio Theory and chat dealing with Klipsch Speakers and Audyssey here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1514970/klipsch-speakers-and-audyssey-setup-discussion If anyone wants to post the numbers they got with Audyssey and discuss their results please do so.
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post #6944 of 11006 Old 02-02-2014, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post


The point isn't that it's impossible to do it the "right" way, but Implementing it would require SOME resources on the part of the manufacturer that wouldn't have a positive ROI. It's a margin driven business and they aren't going to waste their time engineering solutions to problems for what amounts to a tiny niche who cares.

Oh really? I remember once Chris K. explained that the reason for having a myriad of frequencies to set the LPF for the LFE despite the industrial default of 120 Hz is because the AVR makers said: our customers like to tweak. smile.gif
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post #6945 of 11006 Old 02-02-2014, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Because they don't need to, receiver bi-ampiing exists as a marketing feature targeting towards people who feet about "wasting" amp channels. It's no accident that this "feature" came into existence when 7ch receivers became ubiquitous but everyone was still running 5.1 setups; it created a new class of AVR consumer who felt like they were wasting money on extra amp channels.

Obviously they COULD implement an additional layer of digital filters and do active splitting of the signal before it ever hits the amps, but that would require additional resources in terms of engineering and DSP which wouldn't translate into any new sales because the current implementation satifies the needs of those who use and don't know any better.

I also don't think it's as trivial as you are making it out to be -- how would the receiver know at what frequency to filter the signal into high / low portions? Every speaker is going to be different, so would that require another calibration step where it pings the high / low portions of the speaker separately and then calibrates a second crossover point? Or else have just a user adjustable filter? And how do you know the slope should be on each end of the filter? The internal crossover of the speaker has been custom designed and optimized to work with the driver configuration.

The point isn't that it's impossible to do it the "right" way, but Implementing it would require SOME resources on the part of the manufacturer that wouldn't have a positive ROI. It's a margin driven business and they aren't going to waste their time engineering solutions to problems for what amounts to a tiny niche who cares.

The additional layer is actually already there, because you can select all 4 channels (front & front wide) as small (if in 9.1 config of the receiver) and use one "filter" RIGHT NOW to cut off frequencies. I believe they just need to utilize it better.
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post #6946 of 11006 Old 02-02-2014, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't think that's how the DSP signal path works. What you are referring to happens simultaneously on two separate channels of audio. Each channel is processed separately through the bass management block and filtered. What you propose would almost certainly require an "additional layer" because a SINGLE incoming channel (eg. FL) would have to pass through two complete sets of crossover filters (LPF + HPF). First the signal would need to be split by two filters into the hi and low portions for the speaker, and then additionally the standard bass management block where the signal is filtered hi/low for redirection to the subwoofer.

Again, the point being it requires them to do SOMETHING. And for little potential benefit to their bottom line.

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post #6947 of 11006 Old 02-02-2014, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I don't think that's how the DSP signal path works.
I don't know how and why do you think digital signal processing works. It should be easily manipulateable in software - hence the word digital processing. So what they need to do is write the correct subroutines for the DSP to do what I'm asking for.
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Again, the point being it requires them to do SOMETHING. And for little potential benefit to their bottom line.
Of course it (the end user from whom they get their paychecks) requires "them" to do something. Isn't this the definition of progress? By doing nothing - no progress is ever made.
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post #6948 of 11006 Old 02-02-2014, 06:58 PM
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If I were a manufacturer, and I could figure out a way to implement internal crossovers to allow active biamping with either a lookup table or complete configurability to allow crossover anywhere between say 600 Hz (my former Maggie 16s) and 3 or 4000 kilohertz, with slopes varying at least from first to fourth order, separately selectable, and with internal level controls to make up for the pad that's likely on the tweeter to keep the output in proper balance with the woofer, and a switchable, similarly variable, notch filter to take care of the resonance present in many metal tweeters, normally handled by the high pass section of the crossover, I would not do it.

First, it would make me a pariah in the industry. "Buy my receiver, and immediately rip the crossovers out of your speakers." Speaker mfrs are going to react to that how?

More importantly, in a world where even fairly well educated folks can go around and around about this stuff, sorry, I'm not going to give every Tom Dick and Harriett the ability to miswire the low passed amp into the tweeter and immediately destroy their speakers. I don't need the headaches, and as litigious as my country is, I don't think I can write a warranty exception that will prevent me spending at least a goodly share of my profits on costs of defense, let alone if I lose some class action case alleging I knew or should have known that a significant percentage of customers would kill their speakers if I invited them to to this . . . .

And if you don't rip the crossovers out of the speakers, and actively biamp ahead of them, you of course create a huge hole in the frequency response since you are now low passing a low passed signal, and high passing a high passed signal.
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post #6949 of 11006 Old 02-02-2014, 07:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Well said. That was what I was getting at before with my comments about how it's not as easy as it's being made out to be in actual practice -- the internal crossover circuitry is specifically designed for the speaker. Where's the filter frequency going to be set? At what slope? And for what benefit going to all the trouble to implement it?

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post #6950 of 11006 Old 02-02-2014, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Oh really? I remember once Chris K. explained that the reason for having a myriad of frequencies to set the LPF for the LFE despite the industrial default of 120 Hz is because the AVR makers said: our customers like to tweak. smile.gif

That's something we tend to forget here in the rarified world of AVS: these AVRs aren't designed for the average AVS Audyssey or Denon thread reader, they're designed for the person buying a big hunk of metal at the brick and mortar store of their choice. The average Joe associates tweaks of things they think they can control with user friendliness, and hence value. And even here, there's disagreement about whether LPF for the LFE should be 80 or 120. Hence having relatively safe functionality to raise or lower this control isn't a bad thing. It's no more a loaded weapon than controlling volume.

Of course, that doesn't make using a particular level of LPF for LFE a good thing....but that's the price we pay for a consumer society LOL.

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post #6951 of 11006 Old 02-04-2014, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post

Dropped by 4520 off at a gold service center for denon 1 1/2 weeks ago. Just checked in & the part is out of stock.. Assuming it's the HDMI board. No ETA, they expect "a few more weeks". Unreal... What other receivers are out there? should I go to Marantz? (same as denon I suppose)

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That could happen to any brand. You were just the unfortunate one this time. It sucks and I feel for you!

Ended up getting lucky & sending a tweet to https://twitter.com/DenonAmerica who helped me push the repair center. Turns out the repair center was just being lazy & blamed denon, they hadn't even gotten to it.

So Denon send me a brand new unit! Everythings hooked up and working, So far, love the receiver. Haven't tinkered much yet though.

For those that have the receiver in another room, how do you do the Audyssey microphone setup? run an extension to the mic?
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post #6952 of 11006 Old 02-04-2014, 12:12 AM
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Got a question on using a speaker selector temporarily on zone 2 for now until I complete the wiring and eventually get a dedicated WHA system set up with zone control keypads down the road.

I am using 7.1 in my main zone and that's it, I want to wire up 2 ceiling speakers in the bdrm/bath area, tie in my 2 outdoor patio speakers and possibly 1 more set of ceiling speakers for now somewhere else in the house. All for just background music or the news audio that's on in the main zone here and there. More then likely all 3 pairs in the 3 different areas will probably never be on at the same time but wanna make sure either way that I will not harm the AVR at all.

The 4-16 ohm ratings/settings in the manual are confusing me a bit so any help would be great.

This is the 8 ohm selector I have laying around I was planning on using http://www.rocketfishproducts.com/products/home-theater/RF-SSVC4.html

The 2-4 ceiling speakers I get will more then likely be 8 ohm as well, my current pair of outdoor KHO-7 Klipsch are 8 ohm.

I dont really want to install any IM VC's right now because like I said I will be eventually wiring in a WHA system with keypads in each zone, I want to be able to use the Denon App on my phone to control the volume for now on whichever speakers are selected to be on at the selector switch.

Should the AVR zone 2 amp handle 2 of my areas at least or possibly all 3 if on the rare occasion it happened ?
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post #6953 of 11006 Old 02-04-2014, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post

For those that have the receiver in another room, how do you do the Audyssey microphone setup? run an extension to the mic?

Yup that's prob the easiest way.

 

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post #6954 of 11006 Old 02-04-2014, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by roadking00 View Post

Got a question on using a speaker selector temporarily on zone 2 for now until I complete the wiring and eventually get a dedicated WHA system set up with zone control keypads down the road.

I am using 7.1 in my main zone and that's it, I want to wire up 2 ceiling speakers in the bdrm/bath area, tie in my 2 outdoor patio speakers and possibly 1 more set of ceiling speakers for now somewhere else in the house. All for just background music or the news audio that's on in the main zone here and there. More then likely all 3 pairs in the 3 different areas will probably never be on at the same time but wanna make sure either way that I will not harm the AVR at all.

The 4-16 ohm ratings/settings in the manual are confusing me a bit so any help would be great.

This is the 8 ohm selector I have laying around I was planning on using http://www.rocketfishproducts.com/products/home-theater/RF-SSVC4.html

The 2-4 ceiling speakers I get will more then likely be 8 ohm as well, my current pair of outdoor KHO-7 Klipsch are 8 ohm.

I dont really want to install any IM VC's right now because like I said I will be eventually wiring in a WHA system with keypads in each zone, I want to be able to use the Denon App on my phone to control the volume for now on whichever speakers are selected to be on at the selector switch.

Should the AVR zone 2 amp handle 2 of my areas at least or possibly all 3 if on the rare occasion it happened ?

As long as the main zone and all Zone 2 speakers are not running at the same time you should be fine especially with background level audio only. If the AVR should shut down, simply add a 2CH external amp to power the Zone 2 speakers via the Zone 2 pre-out.

http://www.amazon.com/AudioSource-AMP-100-Stereo-Power-Amplifier/dp/B00026BQJ6

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post #6955 of 11006 Old 02-05-2014, 07:35 AM
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Thanks JD for the reply, I'll eventually get caught up with all this knowledge from being here....
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post #6956 of 11006 Old 02-05-2014, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Important points:

1. It doesn't matter which you connect to the lows vs. the highs because there is no active crossover inside the receiver splitting the signal into high/low components; rather, each set of amps set for bi-amping is producing a simple duplicate, full range signal. The passive crossover inside the speaker is going to do the work of filtering out the relevant frequencies (another reason why it's sort of pointless)

2. The mode he told you to use (7.1ch/2ch Front Bi-Amp) is the WRONG mode to use. That mode is used for when you have a SEPARATE pair of dedicated 2ch speakers, independent of a standard 7.1ch setup. The primary 7 pairs of binding posts power the 7.1 setup, and the Front Height + Front Wide posts are used to bi-amp a second pair of 2ch speakers. When in this Amp Assign setting toggling from a multich surround mode to a 2ch mode will automitacally mute the 7.1 setup and activate the 4 channels assigned to bi-amp (internally switching a pair of amps to pair with the 8th/9th channels). You can see this diagrammed in the chart on pg 181, and as the flow chart on pg 140 indicates this mode limits you to a standard 7.1ch config (5.1+SB) for the main setup, because the FWide and FHeight terminals are dedicated to bi-amping the 2ch rig. Any time you see the "2ch" in an Amp Assign setting name, that is Denon-ese for a SEPARATE pair of 2ch speakers distinct form the main multich rig.

3. The correct setting you want is "7.1ch/Bi-Amp". After you set the Amp Assign mode to "7.1ch/Bi-Amp" then you use the "Main Speakers" setting (pg. 100 or 141 of the manual) to designate which two of the "extra" channels beyond 5.1 you want to have available. Then you wire the 2nd pair for bi-amp connection to the pair of speaker channel binding posts you will NOT be using. For example, if you set "Main Speakers" to "S.Back/F.Height" then you are telling the receiver you want the option to use Surround Back or Front Height speakers. This means the Front Wide speakers will NOT be used and therefore you wire the bi-amp connection to the Front WIDE speaker terminals.

4. Note that with this setting you can still use Audyssey to calibrate a full 9ch setup, but because 2 channels are being used for bi-amp only 7 total channels can be in use at any time. So in the above example, when you are using the F.Wide speaker posts for bi-amping, you can have calibrate 9 channels (5.1 + F.Height + Surr.Back) but can only actually run a maximum of 7 channels in actual use, i.e. 5.1 plus your choice of Front Height or Surround Back depending on surround mode.

So I've followed your instructions and Bi-Amped the TL260's today. I can't tell about sound quality, but the speakers are obviously louder than when single-amped. Audyssey worked correctly and everything is setup as I wanted it to be. Thank you again for your explanation smile.gif.
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post #6957 of 11006 Old 02-05-2014, 06:15 PM
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^Glad to hear it's working out for you. 

BTW, did you hear the pattern of 10 Audyssey chirps come out of the fronts twice during each mic position (10 for highs and 10 for lows)?

Don't know what you mean by "obviously louder".  I'd think the channel trim should be just about the same, so they should sound just about as loud as before at any given MV setting.


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post #6958 of 11006 Old 02-05-2014, 06:46 PM
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I haven't heard anything - I clicked Start on the Audyssey setup and went in the other room, came back 5 minutes later, clicked Save, and that was it, I don't know if there were chirps or other sounds smile.gif. I don't know if it doesn't have to sound louder than before the bi-amping, however it is easily distinguishable difference than before - the whole system sounds louder at the same level of the volume scale.
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post #6959 of 11006 Old 02-06-2014, 02:39 AM
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^^^^^^^^^^
Unless I've completely misunderstood your post, it would appear that you have done a single point Audyssey calibration (did not move the mic to other positions). You really need to give Audyssey more information about your room/speaker interaction, by at least sampling a few places around where your head will be - preferably where most of the listening ears will be when the system is being used.
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post #6960 of 11006 Old 02-06-2014, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wysiwygbg View Post

So I've followed your instructions and Bi-Amped the TL260's today. I can't tell about sound quality, but the speakers are obviously louder than when single-amped. Audyssey worked correctly and everything is setup as I wanted it to be. Thank you again for your explanation smile.gif.

Did you run Audyssey after biwiring? If so, it probably increased the trim levels for each channel. That would make the system louder at the same scale on the MV than it was previously.
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