The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 238 - AVS Forum
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post #7111 of 8885 Old 02-23-2014, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss3740 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You need sufficient amp power to be able to play content at the levels you require, without clipping or any other distortion. That's it. If your current amplification can't do that (which it seems like from your Jeff beck comment) then you need more power. Otherwise, more power than you need is pointless - power left on the table serves no purpose. You may have very insensitive speakers, or you may like listening insanely loud because the amps in the Denon should be more than enough. But if they aren't then all you can do is switch units or go to separates.

Here's a useful SPL calculator which can serve as a guide to how much power you need.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Thanks

I'll go out on a limb here and try to describe......
With the old Marantz, you could "feel It", in your chest,.... the impact.
It pounds on you, like a live band. You know what I mean? 

 

That sounds like a description of mid-bass slam to me. I can't see what it has to do with amplifiers unless the amp is simply underpowered for what is being asked of it in terms of driving speakers to the SPLs required. Like I said before, either you have enough power or you don't.  We’d need to see the sensitivity of your speakers, the seating distance from them and the SPL in decibels that you are after. Then we could easily figure out if your current unit has enough power or not. 

 

 

Quote:

With the Denon, it can be so loud it hurts your ears, but your not "in" the music. Its just loud nothing. And you can't "feel" anything. And nobody has mentioned why the old unit drew 12 amps when turned up, and the most this thing uses is 4.5....
 
If the music sounds "so loud it hurts your ears" then chances are you are running your amp into clipping. That would indicate that you are pushing it beyond what it is designed to do, which could indicate that it is underpowered for your needs. A good system does not 'sound loud' when it is pushed hard. I frequently, for example, only realise at just what insane levels I am listening at if I feel the need to speak during the performance - you know, either to say to someone listening with me "****ing hell, doesn't this sound great!" or to say the same thing out loud to myself - and then I realise that even though I am SHOUTING, I cannot actually hear a word I am saying. But the content doesn't 'sound loud' - it sounds exactly the same as it sounds when playing softly, but LOUDER.
 
If you are drawing 12 amps from a 110 volt circuit, then you are using more than 1,300 watts. Does the old unit deliver 1,300 watts in total?  If it does, then perhaps it is just a lot more powerful. By comparison, drawing 4.5 amps indicates a wattage of about 500, which seems reasonable for a multichannel unit specced at about 150 watts per channel when all channels are going full chat.  Fact is, if your speakers and your SPL requirements call for 1,300 watts and you have only 500, there's your answer.
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post #7112 of 8885 Old 02-23-2014, 01:22 PM
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^ good answer!

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post #7113 of 8885 Old 02-23-2014, 01:26 PM
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post #7114 of 8885 Old 02-23-2014, 01:36 PM
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post #7115 of 8885 Old 02-23-2014, 02:01 PM
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Hi Folks

Just a couple of quick capability questions: (I'm upgrading from an AVR-4306 (digital died), with currently a 5.1 setup soon to be 7.1 I have the FL/FR speakers on a separate 2 chan power amp)

1) I read that you need a second set of L/R speakers to use pure direct - is this right? On my 4306 I just had it so that when I go to CD it is in pure direct with the L/R of my 5.1 setup.

2) Regarding audio to zone 2/3. So the preouts work all the time (?), and if you have say 7.1 you can then only power one extra zone in stereo or 2 in mono - but with extra power amps as many as you like even with a 9.1 setup? Does this change in my particular setup where I am using an extra power amp for my L/R channels? I don't know if those unused amps in the 4520 can then be reassigned to another zone, as that would screw up the pre-out function of the L/R channels?
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post #7116 of 8885 Old 02-23-2014, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss3740 View Post

Thanks

I'll go out on a limb here and try to describe......
With the old Marantz, you could "feel It", in your chest,.... the impact.
It pounds on you,.... like a live band. You know what I mean? With the Denon, it can be so loud it hurts your ears, but your not "in" the music. Its just loud nothing.It all runs together. Not distorted, just blah... And you can't "feel" anything. And nobody has mentioned why the old unit drew 12 amps when turned up, and the most this thing uses is 4.5....

It really sounds like to me you need to combine a pre/pro sound you like with separate amplification. Something I've been doing for close to 20 years now with my main music and HT system due to the size of the main speakers I've run. As far as any hints what to check out, I have made enough mention here in the last week of what I'm currently listening to having moved aside my 4520. There are several good options in related products you may want to audition.

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post #7117 of 8885 Old 02-23-2014, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


Thanks, and I think we are zeroing in on this


M&K B1600 Bookshelf Speakers

SPECIFICATIONS
IMPEDACE: 4 ohms
MINIMUM POWER: 10 watts RMS
RECOMMENDED POWER: 25 - 200 watts RMS or more
MAXIMUM POWER: 200 watts RMS unclipped peaks
FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 30 Hz - 20 Khz [+ or -] 2db
MAGNETICALLY SHIELDED: yes
DIMENSIONS (H x W x D): 11-5/8" x 7-1/2" 10-1/4"
WEIGHT: 12 lbs.

Here are my speakers. There are 7 of them. And 2 MK subs. I could not find any efficiency specs. I think the 4250 just does not have enough butt to run them as the Marantz 7500 did. The current draw is coming from my Furman Elite 15-DM. It is registering all current, TV, OPPO, and Denon. I think one of the subs goes thru it to, but nothing has changed ,other than the swap in receivers, and the current draws are as I specified. With the Marantz in place ,it drew 12 and the Denon 4. The old Marantz was rated at 105.. Something is telling me the Denon is overrated. What else could it be
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post #7118 of 8885 Old 02-23-2014, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss3740 View Post

Thanks, and I think we are zeroing in on this


M&K B1600 Bookshelf Speakers

SPECIFICATIONS
IMPEDACE: 4 ohms
MINIMUM POWER: 10 watts RMS
RECOMMENDED POWER: 25 - 200 watts RMS or more
MAXIMUM POWER: 200 watts RMS unclipped peaks
FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 30 Hz - 20 Khz [+ or -] 2db
MAGNETICALLY SHIELDED: yes
DIMENSIONS (H x W x D): 11-5/8" x 7-1/2" 10-1/4"
WEIGHT: 12 lbs.

Here are my speakers. There are 7 of them. And 2 MK subs. I could not find any efficiency specs. I think the 4250 just does not have enough butt to run them as the Marantz 7500 did. The current draw is coming from my Furman Elite 15-DM. It is registering all current, TV, OPPO, and Denon. I think one of the subs goes thru it to, but nothing has changed ,other than the swap in receivers, and the current draws are as I specified. With the Marantz in place ,it drew 12 and the Denon 4. The old Marantz was rated at 105.. Something is telling me the Denon is overrated. What else could it be

I take back my recommendation re separates given the size of your system. Your system is reminiscent of the M&K K7 + K4 +2x K9 based 7.2 system I used to run at my weekender before I swapped out to Martin Logan Motion Series. In that system I always had great sound out of the receivers I used during the time I had them, mainly Integras, both an 80.1 and later a 70.3. Both ran that system without raising a sweat. I obviously run ML nowadays, but I did notice a big performance jump when I bought a Pioneer LX-87(SC-79) end of last year, performances exceptionally well with compact Martin Logan speakers.

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post #7119 of 8885 Old 02-23-2014, 06:46 PM
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Wow, I see Amazon has this for very good deal.....so the rumor mill has gotta be saying the next top tier Denon AVR is around the corner?
http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-4520CI-Networking-Theater-Receiver/dp/B0092KZCKC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393209813&sr=8-1&keywords=4520CI
Quote:
List Price: $2,499.00
Price: $1,508.98 & FREE Shipping
You Save: $990.02 (40%)
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post #7120 of 8885 Old 02-23-2014, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ss3740 View Post

Something is telling me the Denon is overrated. What else could it be
That you don't know enough about this situation to justify bashing a brand.

Maybe XT32 has fine tuned your setup correctly and you have never heard a correct setup before?? So you get chest thumping bass out of those small speakers? That's amazing and I really need to demo those speakers!

I think Kbarnes701 hit the nail on the head with the power specs. Maybe you have your settings different between the two avr's? I don't know but it is really hard to understand your issue over the forum.

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post #7121 of 8885 Old 02-23-2014, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss3740 View Post

Thanks, and I think we are zeroing in on this


M&K B1600 Bookshelf Speakers

SPECIFICATIONS
IMPEDACE: 4 ohms
MINIMUM POWER: 10 watts RMS
RECOMMENDED POWER: 25 - 200 watts RMS or more
MAXIMUM POWER: 200 watts RMS unclipped peaks
FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 30 Hz - 20 Khz [+ or -] 2db
MAGNETICALLY SHIELDED: yes
DIMENSIONS (H x W x D): 11-5/8" x 7-1/2" 10-1/4"
WEIGHT: 12 lbs.

Here are my speakers. There are 7 of them. And 2 MK subs. I could not find any efficiency specs.

Not knowing the sensitivity of those speakers I can't say with certainty that the 4520 needs the help of a power amp but with seven 4 ohm speakers, adding a mult channel amp will likely be a good idea. Even a two or three channel amp would at least take a lot of load off the AVR.
Quote:
I think the 4250 just does not have enough butt to run them as the Marantz 7500 did.

I doubt that is the case. The 7500's rated power consumption is 680W, vs the 4520's 780W. We don't really know how D&M rate their unit's power consumption but at least in relative sense the Denon would be the more powerful one base on specs. Mid range to flag ship Denon models in the past performed well in lab measurements by HTM and HCC. They often outperformed equivalent Marantz models in both 2 channel and multichannel outputs by clear margins.
Quote:
The current draw is coming from my Furman Elite 15-DM. It is registering all current, TV, OPPO, and Denon. I think one of the subs goes thru it to, but nothing has changed ,other than the swap in receivers, and the current draws are as I specified. With the Marantz in place ,it drew 12 and the Denon 4.

Does the Furman display peak currents? The Marantz SR7500 could certainly draw 10 to 12A in terms of very short duration momentary peaks but so can the Denon. Did you compare the current draw between the two when playing the same material at the same volume?
Quote:
The old Marantz was rated at 105.. Something is telling me the Denon is overrated. What else could it be

I doubt the Denon is any more overrated than the Marantz. Assuming you did a fair comparison, that is comparing their current draw under exactly same conditions, it is hard to see how the Marantz could draw 3X (actullay even more if you deduct the draw by the TV, Oppo and the sub) more current than the Denon, unless there is something wrong with that Marantz unit.
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post #7122 of 8885 Old 02-23-2014, 08:35 PM
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Help please: I started the firmware update but receive a "Connection Fail 03" error. It cycles through a retry a couple of times but fails again with the same error. All this with a hardwire connection that seems to be stable. Thoughts on how to fix it?
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post #7123 of 8885 Old 02-23-2014, 10:23 PM
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Help please: I started the firmware update but receive a "Connection Fail 03" error. It cycles through a retry a couple of times but fails again with the same error. All this with a hardwire connection that seems to be stable. Thoughts on how to fix it?

I tried 5 times to get the firmware update to go through and finally I just gave up. You'll have to do a hard/deep reset now to get your AVR out of that loop.

* Power off the AVR
* Press and hold the up and down arrow buttons under the front door while turning the unit back on. (You can release the power button)
* Watch for the display to flash 5 times and then release the up/down arrow buttons.

Your AVR is now restored to out of the box factory new.

On a side note I spoke with Denon about this issue and they informed me that unless I was having problems, I shouldn't do the firmware updates. Firmware updates are only for external device compatibility and not internal hardware functionality improvement.

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post #7124 of 8885 Old 02-23-2014, 11:35 PM
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On a side note I spoke with Denon about this issue and they informed me that unless I was having problems, I shouldn't do the firmware updates. Firmware updates are only for external device compatibility and not internal hardware functionality improvement.
I haven't updated in a long while and have disabled the notification. If you look at the change log it usually is fixing comparability issues with streaming services. I don't use those, so I don't care. If I see something with an actual operational change, I'd update.
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post #7125 of 8885 Old 02-24-2014, 03:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss3740 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
 

Thanks, and I think we are zeroing in on this


M&K B1600 Bookshelf Speakers

SPECIFICATIONS
IMPEDACE: 4 ohms
MINIMUM POWER: 10 watts RMS
RECOMMENDED POWER: 25 - 200 watts RMS or more
MAXIMUM POWER: 200 watts RMS unclipped peaks
FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 30 Hz - 20 Khz [+ or -] 2db
MAGNETICALLY SHIELDED: yes
DIMENSIONS (H x W x D): 11-5/8" x 7-1/2" 10-1/4"
WEIGHT: 12 lbs.

Here are my speakers. There are 7 of them. And 2 MK subs. I could not find any efficiency specs. I think the 4250 just does not have enough butt to run them as the Marantz 7500 did. The current draw is coming from my Furman Elite 15-DM. It is registering all current, TV, OPPO, and Denon. I think one of the subs goes thru it to, but nothing has changed ,other than the swap in receivers, and the current draws are as I specified. With the Marantz in place ,it drew 12 and the Denon 4. The old Marantz was rated at 105.. Something is telling me the Denon is overrated. What else could it be

 

You left out the sensitivity of the speakers. M&K usually go for around 89dB/watt/metre - I googled briefly but couldn’t find the info. The 4530 is definitely capable of driving 4 ohm speakers and there are many users here doing just that without problem so it isn't the impedance that is the issue. Similarly, the 4520 has more than enough grunt to power these speakers to decent levels. If my estimate of 89dB sensitivity is correct (I have a lot of experience with M&K speakers) then you need just 1 watt to hit 89dB at 1 metre, which is pretty loud anyway. 40 watts from a listening distance of 9 feet will give you about 100dB, which is louder than most people listen. As the 4520 is more than able to deliver 40 watts to all channels, then you are not lacking power, assuming you are not sitting 20 feet from the speakers of course. If you are, move closer.

 

WRT to the current draw it is what it is. There is a simple rule of physics which determines the relationship between volts, amps and watts as you probably know. The Marantz cannot draw 12 amps, end of. I am not disputing what your gizmo tells you, just that it is not possible unless we break the laws of physics, and Scottie was right on that one even if he was so often wrong about dilythium crystals. I am not sure what is going on there but an amp rated at 105 wpc (2 channels driven) cannot draw 12 amps. Typically it would perhaps run about 70 watts with 7 channels driven, so that is 490 watts total - on a 110 volt mains, that would give a current draw of about 4.5 amps. Like I said before the marantz would have to be on about 1,300 watts to do 12 amps - or close to 200 watts per channel. No way.

 

Bottom line is this IMO: you do not have an amplifier problem. Whatever problem you feel you do have is difficult to diagnose at distance. You have good subs so you should be getting plenty of mid-bass slam.

 

You haven’t mentioned the crossover setting you are using. If it is the commonly used 80Hz, try upping it to 100Hz and let the subs do more of the heavy lifting. I have the much bigger M&K S150s and I cross them at 100Hz for the same reason - to let my dual Submersives do what they were designed in heaven to do...

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post #7126 of 8885 Old 02-24-2014, 03:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuz1 View Post

Help please: I started the firmware update but receive a "Connection Fail 03" error. It cycles through a retry a couple of times but fails again with the same error. All this with a hardwire connection that seems to be stable. Thoughts on how to fix it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyguyjake View Post

I tried 5 times to get the firmware update to go through and finally I just gave up. You'll have to do a hard/deep reset now to get your AVR out of that loop.

* Power off the AVR
* Press and hold the up and down arrow buttons under the front door while turning the unit back on. (You can release the power button)
* Watch for the display to flash 5 times and then release the up/down arrow buttons.

Your AVR is now restored to out of the box factory new.

On a side note I spoke with Denon about this issue and they informed me that unless I was having problems, I shouldn't do the firmware updates. Firmware updates are only for external device compatibility and not internal hardware functionality improvement.

If you haven't already, please review post #4 of this thread and try the tips listed there to perform a successful update.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1430049/the-official-denon-avr-4520ci-thread/0_100#post_22413910

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post #7127 of 8885 Old 02-24-2014, 05:53 AM
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Thanks for the replies. I had searched several key words in the thread but hadn't found anything other than the hard reset suggestion. I tried that once but must have done something wrong as it didn't break the loop or fix the issue. I'll try again tonight when I get home.
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post #7128 of 8885 Old 02-24-2014, 07:04 AM
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What are the chances of the 4520CI passing 4K at 60Hz? I realize this is an HDMI 2.0 spec feature, but somethings have been know to work without being advertised as such.
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post #7129 of 8885 Old 02-24-2014, 07:09 AM
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Does the price drop on Amazon signify that they are fixing to release a new model?

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post #7130 of 8885 Old 02-24-2014, 07:40 AM
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Does the price drop on Amazon signify that they are fixing to release a new model?
Interesting... That is a pretty good drop in price.

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post #7131 of 8885 Old 02-24-2014, 08:38 AM
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Can hardly go wrong for something that's not only a fine receiver but also a fine pre-pro.
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post #7132 of 8885 Old 02-24-2014, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
What are the chances of the 4520CI passing 4K at 60Hz? I realize this is an HDMI 2.0 spec feature, but somethings have been know to work without being advertised as such.

Do you have a source device that puts out 4K 60Hz?

Quote:
Thanks, and I think we are zeroing in on this


M&K B1600 Bookshelf Speakers

SPECIFICATIONS
IMPEDACE: 4 ohms
MINIMUM POWER: 10 watts RMS
RECOMMENDED POWER: 25 - 200 watts RMS or more
MAXIMUM POWER: 200 watts RMS unclipped peaks
FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 30 Hz - 20 Khz [+ or -] 2db
MAGNETICALLY SHIELDED: yes
DIMENSIONS (H x W x D): 11-5/8" x 7-1/2" 10-1/4"
WEIGHT: 12 lbs.

Here are my speakers. There are 7 of them. And 2 MK subs. I could not find any efficiency specs. I think the 4250 just does not have enough butt to run them as the Marantz 7500 did. The current draw is coming from my Furman Elite 15-DM. It is registering all current, TV, OPPO, and Denon. I think one of the subs goes thru it to, but nothing has changed ,other than the swap in receivers, and the current draws are as I specified. With the Marantz in place ,it drew 12 and the Denon 4. The old Marantz was rated at 105.. Something is telling me the Denon is overrated. What else could it be

I get plenty of chest pounding slam with my 4520. Of course I have a SVS cylinder sub ( and a SVS SB1000 ) providing the slam. Are you sure your 4520 isn't set with Dynamic volume and Dynamic Equalization set to on, or some other setting that might be doing this? My 4520 defaulted to some settings turned on that I had to turn off - much better sound with those off. Also, if you don't think it has enough power, get yourself a 2 or 3 channel amp to go with it to run the front main speakers.

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post #7133 of 8885 Old 02-24-2014, 08:45 AM
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Could be the subs are at too low a level/volume. I know I much prefer my subs at a louder than recommended (by Audyssey) setting. I have a Behringer amp for my subs and don't listen that loud but setting it higher than recommended sounds far more realistic to me.
All of KBarnes suggestions are also very good.
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post #7134 of 8885 Old 02-24-2014, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Do you have a source device that puts out 4K 60Hz?

Yes, I believe so. OPPO BDP-105D

Of course I have no such display, but that could change one of these days.
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post #7135 of 8885 Old 02-24-2014, 09:05 AM
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Reading through the description of that Oppo, it scales/interpolates to 4k but doesn't seem to actually display 4k content, AFAIK.
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post #7136 of 8885 Old 02-24-2014, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Do you have a source device that puts out 4K 60Hz?

Yes, I believe so. OPPO BDP-105D

Of course I have no such display, but that could change one of these days.

I'm not sure why you would need the Oppo to upscale video - if you have a 4K projector or TV, you could let it do the upscaling. Until we actually have 4K Blu Rays in a few years, I'm not personally concerned with this.
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Could be the subs are at too low a level/volume. I know I much prefer my subs at a louder than recommended (by Audyssey) setting. I have a Behringer amp for my subs and don't listen that loud but setting it higher than recommended sounds far more realistic to me.
All of KBarnes suggestions are also very good.

Good point. I turned my sub levels up too. I like " Preference " levels over " Reference " levels when it comes to bass !

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post #7137 of 8885 Old 02-24-2014, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Sam S View Post


Yes, I believe so. OPPO BDP-105D

Of course I have no such display, but that could change one of these days.

 

The Oppo up-scales to 4K, but the Blu-ray standard is currently 24fps, not 60fps.  The Denon also up-scales to 4K, but it is HDMI 1.4.  It takes HDMI 2.0 to pass 4K at 60fps.

 

I have a 4K display (the Sony XBR65X900a), and its up-scaler does such an excellent job that I have never felt the need to up-scale anywhere else in the video path.  Besides, I still have a Darblet in the path between the Denon and the Sony, and the Darblet does NOT pass 4K.  Until Darbee releases an HDMI 2.0 4K Darblet, I prefer to continue using the one I have.

 

And on top of all this, there is a real scarcity of 4K content available right now.  Youtube has some 4K clips, but to get them into my Sony, I would need a high-end PC/Video card combo that supports HDMI 2.0, which I have no desire to purchase.

 

Believe me, as an early adopter of 4K technology, I have been through a lot of frustration!

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post #7138 of 8885 Old 02-24-2014, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

I'm not sure why you would need the Oppo to upscale video - if you have a 4K projector or TV, you could let it do the upscaling. Until we actually have 4K Blu Rays in a few years, I'm not personally concerned with this.
Good point. I turned my sub levels up too. I like " Preference " levels over " Reference " levels when it comes to bass !
It would be a question to whether it works or not Craig. The earlier Sony Demo last year had 4k@60 Hz being passed via HDMI 1.4 interconnects and ports. HDMI 1.4 passthrough in the AVR probably can handle this, probably at 8 bit depth easily.

Sam S was just inquiring if anyone had this combo and could comment yet. I don't have a 4k display yet, but certainly have a BDP-103D and BDP-105D, both which with a FW update could output 4K@60 Hz which the Sil9616 can do. Also this is in regards to 1080i/60hz content upscaled as 4kx2k for the most part.

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post #7139 of 8885 Old 02-24-2014, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Reading through the description of that Oppo, it scales/interpolates to 4k but doesn't seem to actually display 4k content, AFAIK.

I understand it would not be native 4K @ 60Hz, but I still wouldn't want the signal getting bottle-necked in the AVR.
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post #7140 of 8885 Old 02-24-2014, 10:03 AM
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What are the chances of the 4520CI passing 4K at 60Hz? I realize this is an HDMI 2.0 spec feature, but somethings have been know to work without being advertised as such.

I doubt Denon will do that. This receiver is made in 2012, well before the 2.0 spec was announced. And why would Denon do that when they could easily just sell a new receiver with that "new" feature. It's all about the money! cool.gif

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