The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 253 - AVS Forum
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post #7561 of 10751 Old 04-05-2014, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post


I just tested this on my X4000 -- the Front Bypass option disappears if you only have FR/FL speakers. I went to Speaker Config and turned off everything but 2.1 speakers and it disappeared as an option. I added the center channel back and it reappeared.

If you REALLY want this option, a workaround would be to run Audyssey with another speaker temporarily hooked up to the center channel output so Audyssey detects it, then unhook it when you are done. Ensure all inputs are set to STEREO surround mode (so no content to the "fake" center) and your Front Bypass option comes back, so you will have EQ only on the subwoofer with 2.1.

 

Ah, thanks for getting into this Mister Batpig. It proves I'm not losing my mind, they must have disabled this handy feature for simple 2.1 soles like myself ;) I regret doing the last firmwareupdate so I already e-mailed this issue to Denon, I must be the only guy on the planet with this request so I'm not expecting a lot. When you think of it, it's not logical they throw away a very nice sub eq for music listening ... also Audyssey is 'against' this bypass feature so this won't speed things up for me :)

 

Still loving my 4520 though, it's really a powerfull beast that doesn't make me miss my Pearl Lite stereo amp. Also Batpig, Denon should hire you! (if they didn't already!)

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post #7562 of 10751 Old 04-05-2014, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

Not only that, but isn't the Atmos bitstream going to be something different than what's already included in the BD spec? In other words, just having a receiver with an Atmos decoder doesn't help you if the disc you're trying to play doesn't have an Atmos track and your BD player can't read that track properly.
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

No that is incorrect.
More info here (or a link) please. How could you (or anyone) know how the consumer version of Atmos or DTS-UHD is going to work at this point when no products have yet been announced? Just because it works one way in the cinema doesn't mean it'll work that same way at home.

Here's a quote I read over in the Dolby Atmos thread that seems appropriate to re-post here:
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Everything you might've read on the net at this point is pure speculation and conjecture... so for you to expect Dolby to announce specifics on a product that doesn't exist at this point wouldn't make sense.

And even if there were a product in the pipeline, it would be pure NDA...
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post #7563 of 10751 Old 04-05-2014, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

Not only that, but isn't the Atmos bitstream going to be something different than what's already included in the BD spec? In other words, just having a receiver with an Atmos decoder doesn't help you if the disc you're trying to play doesn't have an Atmos track and your BD player can't read that track properly.
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

No that is incorrect.
More info here (or a link) please. How could you (or anyone) know how the consumer version of Atmos or DTS-UHD is going to work at this point when no products have yet been announced? Just because it works one way in the cinema doesn't mean it'll work that same way at home.
 

 

I know because the information has been published and I have read it. They don't just create this sort of thing overnight - it has been in development for a considerable time. It has nothing to do with how it works in cinemas and how that is different from how it works at home - what we are discussing is how Atmos will be implemented via Blu-ray.

 

First off I’d suggest you make yourself more familiar with how Atmos itself works, and this White Paper from Dolby will help with that - I have added it to my Public DropBox folder so you can download it:

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9653266/Dolby-Atmos-Next-Generation-Audio-for-Cinema%20(1).pdf

 

The above PDF is a very useful guide to how the whole tech works and how clever it is in the sense that it is entirely scalable to work just fine even with a 2.0 soundbar.

 

Atmos soundtracks can in fact be placed on Blu-ray discs right now and played back through existing Blu-ray players. The players will simply output the Atmos bitstream through their HDMI outputs to any AVR with suitable Atmos decoders - the things that will be launched at CEDIA this September.

 

The soundtracks are a collection of audio objects with metadata (instructions for where those objects should image). Those audio objects all start off as uncompressed PCM in the studio, but can be packed losslessly using TrueHD for delivery on Blu-ray.

 

It would be a little silly for Denon, Onkyo etc to launch object-enabled AVRs in September if there was no means of getting the object-based audio into them. Currently I have not read a single authoritative article which has said that new players will be required for Atmos movies.

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post #7564 of 10751 Old 04-05-2014, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

To get an insight into how Atmos will work with current Blu-ray discs, this article contains good info:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Industry_Trends/Michael_S._Palmer/Dolby/HDD_Demos_Dolby_Atmos_and_Dolby_TrueHD_Advanced_96K_Upsampling/9450

Atmos soundtracks can in fact be placed on Blu-ray discs right now and played back through existing Blu-ray players. The players will simply output the Atmos bitstream through their HDMI outputs to any AVR with suitable Atmos decoders - the things that will be launched at CEDIA this September.
I guess I'm slow -- how does the article you linked to explain how Atmos will be implemented on BD? As far as I can tell, it doesn't. In fact, the end of the article says this:

"Dolby Atmos won't be in our homes anytime soon"

The article says nothing about how Atmos will be implemented on BD.

My posts probably come across as extremely skeptical because you're the only one on the forums who claims to "know" how Atmos will be implemented on BD. Most of the film guys in the Atmos thread imply it's still up in the air and that "4K BD" (for lack of a better term) will probably be the first place we'll see it.

We can take this to PM or a different thread if you like -- I think I've probably clogged up the 4520 thread enough as it is.
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post #7565 of 10751 Old 04-05-2014, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwa View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

To get an insight into how Atmos will work with current Blu-ray discs, this article contains good info:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Industry_Trends/Michael_S._Palmer/Dolby/HDD_Demos_Dolby_Atmos_and_Dolby_TrueHD_Advanced_96K_Upsampling/9450

Atmos soundtracks can in fact be placed on Blu-ray discs right now and played back through existing Blu-ray players. The players will simply output the Atmos bitstream through their HDMI outputs to any AVR with suitable Atmos decoders - the things that will be launched at CEDIA this September.
I guess I'm slow -- how does the article you linked to explain how Atmos will be implemented on BD? As far as I can tell, it doesn't. In fact, the end of the article says this:

"Dolby Atmos won't be in our homes anytime soon"

The article says nothing about how Atmos will be implemented on BD.

My posts probably come across as extremely skeptical because you're the only one on the forums who claims to "know" how Atmos will be implemented on BD. Most of the film guys in the Atmos thread imply it's still up in the air and that "4K BD" (for lack of a better term) will probably be the first place we'll see it.

We can take this to PM or a different thread if you like -- I think I've probably clogged up the 4520 thread enough as it is.

 

Sorry  - I linked to the wrong article - I edited my post while you were replying - my bad.

 

I don't claim to know how they will implement it on BD. I have no idea. What I am saying is that it will be implemented on BD and we won't need new players. There has been no leaking of info about new BD players being launched at CEDIA - but huge amounts about new object-enabled AVRs.  All that the disc needs to do is to contain the bitstream that has the Atmos information encoded into it. I can't see why anyone would think a new player would be needed. If you have some info that says different, I'd be keen to see it.

 

Might be worth reading the amendment to my post for more info on how Atmos will be encoded into the TrueHD codec. It will be a simple bitstream from the original PCM track - why would it require new player technology?

 

And it will definitely be in homes some time soon - from September this year!  Although, realistically, it may be the end of the year before the AVRs are in the stores.

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post #7566 of 10751 Old 04-05-2014, 12:26 PM
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Whoa, I see you edited your original post so the parts I originally quoted are no longer there.
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Atmos soundtracks can in fact be placed on Blu-ray discs right now and played back through existing Blu-ray players. The players will simply output the Atmos bitstream through their HDMI outputs to any AVR with suitable Atmos decoders - the things that will be launched at CEDIA this September.

The soundtracks are a collection of audio objects with metadata (instructions for where those objects should image). Those audio objects all start off as uncompressed PCM in the studio, but can be packed losslessly using TrueHD for delivery on Blu-ray.

I've seen some discussion of how Atmos soundtracks/extensions could be implemented, but nothing on the way they will be implemented. So, where's that info? Plus, I've read there might be a capacity issue with Blu-ray.

Bottom line -- I've seen nothing that states categorically that the methodology you explained in your quote is the way Atmos in the home will work in practice. Please, a link -- if that's the way it's gonna work, then it's got to be written down somewhere.
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It would be a little silly for Denon, Onkyo etc to launch object-enabled AVRs in September if there was no means of getting the object-based audio into them. Currently I have not read a single authoritative article which has said that new players will be required for Atmos movies.
Well, I guess this is where we definitely agree, but we're drawing two conclusions from it. You're saying that there must exist a way for getting object-based audio into the new receivers since new AVRs and processors are launching in September. I'm saying that I'm skeptical that new object-based audio hardware is launching in September since we haven't seen details of the delivery method yet.

Honestly, I feel like something new is coming at the end of this year. I'm just surprised that there's not more concrete info available about it -- and that's what's driving my skepticism.
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post #7567 of 10751 Old 04-05-2014, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

Whoa, I see you edited your original post so the parts I originally quoted are no longer there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Atmos soundtracks can in fact be placed on Blu-ray discs right now and played back through existing Blu-ray players. The players will simply output the Atmos bitstream through their HDMI outputs to any AVR with suitable Atmos decoders - the things that will be launched at CEDIA this September.

The soundtracks are a collection of audio objects with metadata (instructions for where those objects should image). Those audio objects all start off as uncompressed PCM in the studio, but can be packed losslessly using TrueHD for delivery on Blu-ray.

I've seen some discussion of how Atmos soundtracks/extensions could be implemented, but nothing on the way they will be implemented. So, where's that info? Plus, I've read there might be a capacity issue with Blu-ray.

Bottom line -- I've seen nothing that states categorically that the methodology you explained in your quote is the way Atmos in the home will work in practice. Please, a link -- if that's the way it's gonna work, then it's got to be written down somewhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It would be a little silly for Denon, Onkyo etc to launch object-enabled AVRs in September if there was no means of getting the object-based audio into them. Currently I have not read a single authoritative article which has said that new players will be required for Atmos movies.
Well, I guess this is where we definitely agree, but we're drawing two conclusions from it. You're saying that there must exist a way for getting object-based audio into the new receivers since new AVRs and processors are launching in September. I'm saying that I'm skeptical that new object-based audio is launching in September since we haven't seen details of the delivery method yet.

Honestly, I feel like something new is coming at the end of this year. I'm just surprised that there's not more concrete info available about it -- and that's what's driving my skepticism.

 

Yeah, we are cross-posting in real time :)  I doubt there will be a capacity issue - the BDA is already publishing info on how current BD tech can be pushed to 100 gig capacity (for potential 4k releases).  And you're assuming that object-based audio will require vastly more data space - the audio files on discs aren't all that huge anyway.

 

Object based audio is definitely launching in September...  no industry insider I have read has denied that when asked. I guess we'll have to wait and see ....

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post #7568 of 10751 Old 04-05-2014, 12:34 PM
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Honestly, what's more germaine to the discussion (at least in the context of the 4520) is info these forthcoming object-enabled AVRs. You say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

There has been no leaking of info about new BD players being launched at CEDIA - but huge amounts about new object-enabled AVRs.

...

And it will definitely be in homes some time soon - from September this year!  Although, realistically, it may be the end of the year before the AVRs are in the stores.
Other than an off-handed comment in an article posted at Audioholics, I've searched and searched and can't find any of the huge amounts of leaks regarding the object-enabled AVRs that are coming. There are definitely a lot of coy comments from industry insiders, and where there's smoke there's usually fire...I guess I'm just surprised there's not more concrete info out there if hardware is coming in September.

Can you link to some of that info? I'm not trying to be argumentative; I'm simply trying to add information to the discussion as to whether the 4520 is a good buy given the prices right now -- and based on what we do (or don't) know about its replacement.

In my case, my Onkyo 5008 up and died on me, so I was forced to get a replacement (the 4520) earlier than expected. Oh well, I got an awesome price on it, so if Atmos is coming at the end of the year, I can probably swing an upgrade. smile.gif
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post #7569 of 10751 Old 04-05-2014, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

There are definitely a lot of coy comments from industry insiders, and where there's smoke there's usually fire...I guess I'm just surprised there's not more concrete info out there if hardware is coming in September.

Can you link to some of that info? I'm not trying to be argumentative; I'm simply trying to add information to the discussion as to whether the 4520 is a good buy given the prices right now -- and based on what we do (or don't) know about its replacement.

In my case, my Onkyo 5008 up and died on me, so I was forced to get a replacement (the 4520) earlier than expected. Oh well, I got an awesome price on it, so if Atmos is coming at the end of the year, I can probably swing an upgrade. smile.gif

 

I am guessing that the manufacturers are keeping quiet about what is coming because if they announce game-changing new units -- with Atmos, 4kUHD, HDMI 2.0 and possibly Dolby Vision -- are coming in September, then they will have killed dead sales of current units between now and then. Already more and more people are telling me they have decided to wait until CEDIA before making any decision to replace their current AVR or processor. The theme of CEDIA this year, BTW, is "hyperchange is here".

 

It's difficult to post a link because all the info I have has been gleaned from odd comments here and there rather than a definitive 'article'. Everything has been locked down tight, which reinforces the notion that what is coming is going to be a revolution not an evolution. I have also been given odd snippets of information which I have promised not to pass on. Overall, the overwhelming impression I have is that there is a 'perfect storm' of change coming this September. What can it be?  Not HDMI 2.0/HDCP 2.2 or 4k, although they will surely come of age in the fall - these technologies are already well-known. Dolby Vision?  Well maybe... DV is the main event as far as Dolby are concerned (see here) simply because every home has a TV whereas HTs are comparatively rare. So this leaves Atmos, and maybe its DTS equivalent, as the main event. Maybe Auro as well although personally I think a channel based solution is likely to wither on the vine.

 

Hey - look how much crow you'll be able to make me eat if I'm wrong!  LOL!

 

Sorry to hear the Onkyo died on you. I am a longtime Onkyo user and currently use the 5509 processor. It will be for sale early next year ;)

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post #7570 of 10751 Old 04-05-2014, 03:20 PM
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^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

 

Thanks for the discussion, guys.  As one currently pondering whether to purchase the 4520 or wait and see what's down the pike, it's been very useful to me even if more speculative than authoritative.

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post #7571 of 10751 Old 04-05-2014, 06:04 PM
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Ok so Denon went from the 4311 to 4520. What do you think the next model number will be? BTW, I've decided to wait until summer 2015 to get the new Denon, whatever it will be called.biggrin.gif
Would be nice if Denon do software update 4520 when Hdmi2.0 comes out.
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post #7572 of 10751 Old 04-05-2014, 06:30 PM
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Would be nice if Denon do software update 4520 when Hdmi2.0 comes out.

You mean a general update or are you hoping for HDMI 2.0 (which can't happen of course)?

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post #7573 of 10751 Old 04-05-2014, 06:50 PM
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You mean a general update or are you hoping for HDMI 2.0 (which can't happen of course)?
Yeah they want to make more money on the new 2.0 hdmi when it comes out.
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post #7574 of 10751 Old 04-05-2014, 09:59 PM
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I noticed today that Accessories4Less have lowered the price on the refurbished 4520s and it feels quite tempting for me.

Currently running a 4310 in a stereo setup and pretty happy with it to be honest, but I'm thinking that the Audyssey XT32 and hopefully better amps would make a noticeable improvement in SQ.
On the other hand, I'm a little nervous about the 4520 lacking HDCP 2.2 (and most likely not receiving or supporting a FW upgrade for this in the future) and (to a lesser extent) 4K/60Hz.

I would like to ask people who upgraded from 4310 to 4520 if they feel it was worth it and also how do you guys feel about refurbished Denons.

Thank you.
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post #7575 of 10751 Old 04-06-2014, 02:31 AM
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Yeah they want to make more money on the new 2.0 hdmi when it comes out.

Yeah with a new 18Gbps HDMI chipset that that passes 4K 60fps.

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post #7576 of 10751 Old 04-06-2014, 02:53 AM
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Ok so Denon went from the 4311 to 4520. What do you think the next model number will be? BTW, I've decided to wait until summer 2015 to get the new Denon, whatever it will be called.biggrin.gif

My money is on 5200.

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post #7577 of 10751 Old 04-06-2014, 05:17 AM
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Yeah with a new 18Gbps HDMI chipset that that passes 4K 60fps.
Sound like you want to get one.
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post #7578 of 10751 Old 04-06-2014, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
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I noticed today that Accessories4Less have lowered the price on the refurbished 4520s and it feels quite tempting for me.

Currently running a 4310 in a stereo setup and pretty happy with it to be honest, but I'm thinking that the Audyssey XT32 and hopefully better amps would make a noticeable improvement in SQ.
On the other hand, I'm a little nervous about the 4520 lacking HDCP 2.2 (and most likely not receiving or supporting a FW upgrade for this in the future) and (to a lesser extent) 4K/60Hz.

I would like to ask people who upgraded from 4310 to 4520 if they feel it was worth it and also how do you guys feel about refurbished Denons.

Thank you.
As long it's authorize dealer.
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post #7579 of 10751 Old 04-06-2014, 07:59 AM
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Quick question: I see all these pictures of frequency response graphs, is that something the receiver shows on-screen? Does Audyssey show before and after graphs?

NHT speakers, Denon 4520, 65VT50
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post #7580 of 10751 Old 04-06-2014, 08:18 AM
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No. What your seeing is probably graphs from REW with a calibrated mic.
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post #7581 of 10751 Old 04-06-2014, 09:28 AM
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That's lame! Doesn't it measure the response anyway? Why not simply show an on-screen graph?

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post #7582 of 10751 Old 04-06-2014, 09:34 AM
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That's lame! Doesn't it measure the response anyway? Why not simply show an on-screen graph?

 

+ add a function to save it to a USB device in the front panel :cool: not gonna happen, but would be nice.

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post #7583 of 10751 Old 04-06-2014, 09:48 AM
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I would like to ask people who upgraded from 4310 to 4520 if they feel it was worth it and also how do you guys feel about refurbished Denons.

Thank you.

 

I'm also running 2.1 with a 4520. I had a Marantz Pearl Lite before this (sub connected on preamp output) I'm happy with this receiver, after Audyssey calibration I was shocked by the Sub eq quality of this unit, the bass is totally amazing in a lot of music genres and movies. I'm running b&w 684 fronts and they tend to sound a bit 'muffled' on the midside ... Audyssey pulls this straight, although accoustical / unplugged recordings still sound better on Pure Direct. The webinterface is handy to, although it feels a bit 90's :) My girl is also a fan because of the ipad controls icw DS Audio, she loves streaming from the Synology to the Denon.

 

I have no experience with refurbished units, besides shelf models there is no such thing here in Belgium.

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post #7584 of 10751 Old 04-06-2014, 09:51 AM
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As long it's authorize dealer.
Accessories4less is an Authorized Dealer... That is where I bought mine. If I would have known that I could get it for almost the same price from AVS... I would have bought it here instead, and got a BNIB one though.

Denon 4520ci, (3) JBL 2360As/EV DHA-1s, (3) 1/4 Pie bass bins, MiniDSP 2x4s, (4) Klipsch HIPs, (2) Klipsch KP3002s, PS3, XBox 360, (3) Intel NUCs, Monoprice Redmere, Monster HTPS7000, 2 SUPER SPUD subs, Panasonic AE8000us SeymourAV 180 (195" diagonal) scope screen, Yamaha P7000s (for the subs), (2) Yamaha P2500s amps for the front (3) bass bins.
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post #7585 of 10751 Old 04-06-2014, 10:01 AM
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Accessories4less is an Authorized Dealer... That is where I bought mine. If I would have known that I could get it for almost the same price from AVS... I would have bought it here instead, and got a BNIB one though.
The way I see it when it is your money, buy it any store you want too.
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post #7586 of 10751 Old 04-06-2014, 11:06 AM
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I don't know if anybody has posted about the Sound and Vision magazine article on the 4520 yet or not, but I did get it in the mail a couple of days ago. I got pretty good reviews.

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MY THEATER......The Thompson Theater 11.9 channels

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post #7587 of 10751 Old 04-06-2014, 11:14 AM
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That's lame! Doesn't it measure the response anyway? Why not simply show an on-screen graph?

It doesn’t measure the post-calibration setup so it is impossible to show an 'after' graph. And only Audyssey Pro shows any graphs anyway - but they are only mathematical predictions so they aren't worth much. The only way to measure the room's response after running Audyssey is with REW etc.

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post #7588 of 10751 Old 04-06-2014, 11:51 AM
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I don't know if anybody has posted about the Sound and Vision magazine article on the 4520 yet or not, but I did get it in the mail a couple of days ago. It got pretty good reviews.


I saw that review too. wink.gif But they forgot to mention that the 4520 is used in the theater profiled on page 30-31 of the same issue wink.gif



Chasen The Dream Theater
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post #7589 of 10751 Old 04-06-2014, 11:54 AM
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That's really awesome that your theater is in the magazine! Fantastic theater as well!

MY THEATER......The Thompson Theater 11.9 channels

"Is not love not unlike the unlikely not it is unlikened to?"
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post #7590 of 10751 Old 04-06-2014, 02:04 PM
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As I noted earlier in the week, Denon has a "temporarily" price drop on the 4520 for the next few weeks and then the price goes back up again. The replacement flagship model is not due out until the end of this year. D&M should be making a public announcement by the end of April/early May on the new 2014 models, although there might not be an news on the flagship until later this summer.

Does anyone know if hdbaset is being considered in the 2014 receivers? I would love to be able to use my existing in-wall ethernet cables to send alternate hdmi output off the receiver from my living room to my bedroom hdtv. Long hdmi cable runs are not practical for me.
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