The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 262 - AVS Forum
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post #7831 of 8836 Old 04-23-2014, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

So what is all this talk about the 4520's using cheap components affecting the SQ? So the newer models, as in the one I am buying, has cheaper capacitors and other internal parts and such? Perhaps why it's on sale?

There is not "all this talk". There is ONE PERSON who is a modder who likes to take apart receivers and replace caps and other components, who has a personal vendetta against the 4520 and is aggressively pushing his agenda that it uses cheap components and can be improved dramatically with some simple upgrades. One loud voice should not be something you worry about.
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post #7832 of 8836 Old 04-23-2014, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

There is not "all this talk". There is ONE PERSON who is a modder who likes to take apart receivers and replace caps and other components, who has a personal vendetta against the 4520 and is aggressively pushing his agenda that it uses cheap components and can be improved dramatically with some simple upgrades. One loud voice should not be something you worry about.

Yes I remember him from when it all arose. I has read a few comments yesterday that was more than just him but must have originated from there.
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post #7833 of 8836 Old 04-23-2014, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by luvmusic View Post

All use cheaper components in one way or another. For example: They might use a slightly higher cost DAC and less cost capacitors on some amp board or video board or a less expensive DAC chip and capacitors or solenoids or diodes that might cost a few cents more on the amp board or something. All manufactures focus on the bottom line. Every piece of gear has a shortcoming or two. Perfect doesn't exist. It is what it is. Don't pay any attention to the individual (s) griping about this model or that model. I think it's mostly stemming from disgruntle talk over some dissatisfaction with something minor or feelings of mistreatment because the individual couldn't get their way. Who knows, it could just be buyers remorse because they bought it based on 100% assumption and impulse and discovered perhaps it doesn't sound good to them or doesn't work with their speakers or any number of things. They are just trying to do maximum damage by taking a tiny little piece of truth and blowing it out of proportion to fit their agenda.

The reason the 4520 is "on sale" right now is because of model change out coming. It's at end of marketing life, but NOT useful or quality life. Please make that distinction in any considerations. The flagship models for Denon and Marantz get renewed about every 2 to 3 years. Yamaha is every year. It in no way means the unit is no good or even not as good. It's usually over some added minor feature for the future 10 years away with a question of whether or not it will even come into existence.
I wouldn't worry about it. Besides, it has a 3 year warranty, that speaks for something. Otherwise it would have the standard 1 year warranty.

FWIW: I asked the same thing and am repeating the answer here as it was explained to me as best I can. Yes, it makes sense to me when I look at all the other devices we see and their patterns. Heck, look at cell phones, new models come out once a week or something! Impossible to keep up with.

Yea like I mentioned in response to Batpig I remember all that when it started. I am not needy when it comes to features. All I use is my computer monitor on zone 2 and then power my very sensitive speakers crossed at 80hz. All 5 channels of them. I have lived with a 3313 for over a year and I believe XT32 will be a nice improvement.
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post #7834 of 8836 Old 04-23-2014, 05:58 PM
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Well what feature is the 4520 lacking?
Object sound?
some next gen Audyssey past xt32?

For me I cannot fathom a reason to upgrade past my 4520 until object sound is readily available.

The sale prices I've seen make it such a deal.
No need for any buyers remorse to those who buy now, even knowing a future flagship may be available Dec-2014.


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post #7835 of 8836 Old 04-23-2014, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

There is not "all this talk". There is ONE PERSON who is a modder who likes to take apart receivers and replace caps and other components, who has a personal vendetta against the 4520 and is aggressively pushing his agenda that it uses cheap components and can be improved dramatically with some simple upgrades. One loud voice should not be something you worry about.

Yes, this. I even question this because he tried to get me to do this at some point in his rant and I can't even read a schematic! I would not recommend doing this to anybody. Also, he was banned and you have to go out of your way to get banned. In other words, he was banned for a reason.
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post #7836 of 8836 Old 04-23-2014, 06:32 PM
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Who was it?

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post #7837 of 8836 Old 04-23-2014, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Yea like I mentioned in response to Batpig I remember all that when it started. I am not needy when it comes to features. All I use is my computer monitor on zone 2 and then power my very sensitive speakers crossed at 80hz. All 5 channels of them. I have lived with a 3313 for over a year and I believe XT32 will be a nice improvement.

Yes, it's not as big a deal as it's made out to be. One has a 3 year warranty, folks here who probably know the 4520 or any AVR backwards and forwards and all kinds of stuff, so everything will be fine.
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post #7838 of 8836 Old 04-23-2014, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Well what feature is the 4520 lacking?
Object sound?
some next gen Audyssey past xt32?

For me I cannot fathom a reason to upgrade past my 4520 until object sound is readily available.

The sale prices I've seen make it such a deal.
No need for any buyers remorse to those who buy now, even knowing a future flagship may be available Dec-2014.


Via Mikes brain/thumb interface, LLAP

Last I heard the biggest thing was some Dolby Atom thing or something and that's about it.
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post #7839 of 8836 Old 04-23-2014, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post

Who was it?

Why the need to know? It's best not to feed it anymore energy. If you really need to know look at previous posts.
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post #7840 of 8836 Old 04-23-2014, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by luvmusic View Post

Last I heard the biggest thing was some Dolby Atom thing or something and that's about it.
Dolby Atmos... Which is not out in any AVR... At this time it is only in commercial theaters.

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post #7841 of 8836 Old 04-23-2014, 08:02 PM
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I wouldn't doubt this for a minute and you are right, it's mostly poorly or uncalibrated displays I've seen most likely. I happen to have display calabration gear which I used on on my own TV and it got it wrong. It's called the Spyder 3 kit. I kept it though just in case it was me that went wrong somewhere. I'll use it again next time I need it, like whenever I happen to get a BR player or if I change the TV cabinet.
It will be interesting to see what the 4520 does with the TV and DVD/SACD player.

Just so you know it's more than likely not just how you used it, as the Spyder3 meter has a less than stellar reputation for accuracy as far as for calibration of TV's. Yes it's better than using nothing, but it's also far from being even good as far as calibration meters go.
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post #7842 of 8836 Old 04-23-2014, 08:15 PM
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Why the need to know? It's best not to feed it anymore energy. If you really need to know look at previous posts.
What?? You guys were talking about this person publicly. All I asked was who it was. Never mind though being it is such a big deal now. Geez

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post #7843 of 8836 Old 04-23-2014, 09:26 PM
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I found this quote on a 4520 review below in the comment section. Very interesting for sure. If I remember right the guy who modded his 4520's capacitors and such said the 8801 had better capacitors and transistors? That is vague memory though so I could be wrong. Interesting nonetheless smile.gif

This comment is in relation to the Marantz and Denon names using the same assembly building.

"Submitted by palmharbor on April 23, 2014 - 2:14pm
Since the Japan Nuclear issue...production for both units are in the same factory using the same parts. I know this for a fact."
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post #7844 of 8836 Old 04-23-2014, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post

What?? You guys were talking about this person publicly. All I asked was who it was. Never mind though being it is such a big deal now. Geez

I don't remember his name either but that doesn't matter. It sounds like some of the comments may still be there so a simple review could tell you smile.gif

BTW, being a Duck fan born and still living in Eugene, I hope Chip can make the Eagles into a powerhouse wink.gif
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post #7845 of 8836 Old 04-24-2014, 05:36 AM
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I don't remember his name either but that doesn't matter. It sounds like some of the comments may still be there so a simple review could tell you smile.gif

BTW, being a Duck fan born and still living in Eugene, I hope Chip can make the Eagles into a powerhouse wink.gif

I was on my phone last night watching the game, so it would have been hard for me to go back and look to see what was actually said. I just can't believe that other people were talking about it and I ask who it was.....then all of a sudden it was "you don't need to bring it up again". Not in those words, but c'mon man!


I agree with you, I hope Chip Kelly will do magic with the Eagle, but the Desean thing is super questionable.

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This AM. before leaving for work, I just had to take another listen, for these cheap capacitors ! After listening to a couple of tracks I was in awe of what I was hearing, I could pick apart every instrument the musicians were playing.then as I had to leave I realized I had hitten quick s 4, Internet radio mp3 ! Hard to believe those cheap parts can render 40 year old tracks that good, while leaving for work, I just could not wait to get home to hear how great those caps are going to sound on hi rez flacs later ,
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post #7847 of 8836 Old 04-24-2014, 05:52 AM
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What I got out of it was there are issues with the design of the interconnects between the boards. Using low grade connection solutions. I personally experienced intermittent Zone 2 that I could fix by simply raising the corner of the unit a half inch and tapping it down to shake the insides. When I sent it in for repair, the documentation said "Cleaned and Tested OK". Wonder what they did? Reseated the boards? Worked good when I got it back. Sold it. Now running a 2009 Integra 7.9 that to me, sounds better and does a better job with my Pany 65. I wasn't even looking for a difference in the picture but it kind of caught my attention. I had both units and there was no doubt the Integra was the one I liked for sound and video. Interesting is my Bryston went out so it was out for service. I had the both the 4520 and the integra. Both using inboard amps. Not a side by side as I had already shipped the 4520. I personally agree with the comments made by "that guy" that this unit has some shortfalls. Even a review stated sonic issues. 

I will no longer post negatives on this thread as I realize it's not good etiquette but I wanted at least to get my personal experience out. Matter of fact, I will unsubscribe to this thread so I don't get tempted.

 

I'm in a holding pattern for a new AVR. The 7.9 is a temporary solution. 


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post #7848 of 8836 Old 04-24-2014, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

Just so you know it's more than likely not just how you used it, as the Spyder3 meter has a less than stellar reputation for accuracy as far as for calibration of TV's. Yes it's better than using nothing, but it's also far from being even good as far as calibration meters go.

Thanks. Good to know and explains a few things. After doing 3 TVs with it I think I can conclude that using nothing but one's eyes may be better than the Spyder while the Spyder is better than letting some guy from the store calibrate your TV.
Out of curiosity, is there a TV calibration gizmo that is affordable to most folks that has a better track record you can suggest?
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post #7849 of 8836 Old 04-24-2014, 07:34 AM
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What I got out of it was there are issues with the design of the interconnects between the boards. Using low grade connection solutions. I personally experienced intermittent Zone 2 that I could fix by simply raising the corner of the unit a half inch and tapping it down to shake the insides. When I sent it in for repair, the documentation said "Cleaned and Tested OK". Wonder what they did? Reseated the boards? Worked good when I got it back. Sold it. Now running a 2009 Integra 7.9 that to me, sounds better and does a better job with my Pany 65. I wasn't even looking for a difference in the picture but it kind of caught my attention. I had both units and there was no doubt the Integra was the one I liked for sound and video. Interesting is my Bryston went out so it was out for service. I had the both the 4520 and the integra. Both using inboard amps. Not a side by side as I had already shipped the 4520. I personally agree with the comments made by "that guy" that this unit has some shortfalls. Even a review stated sonic issues. 
I will no longer post negatives on this thread as I realize it's not good etiquette but I wanted at least to get my personal experience out. Matter of fact, I will unsubscribe to this thread so I don't get tempted.

I'm in a holding pattern for a new AVR. The 7.9 is a temporary solution. 

Well I guess I am about to live with those short falls for years to come...
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post #7850 of 8836 Old 04-24-2014, 07:35 AM
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What I got out of it was there are issues with the design of the interconnects between the boards. Using low grade connection solutions. I personally experienced intermittent Zone 2 that I could fix by simply raising the corner of the unit a half inch and tapping it down to shake the insides. When I sent it in for repair, the documentation said "Cleaned and Tested OK". Wonder what they did? Reseated the boards? Worked good when I got it back. Sold it. Now running a 2009 Integra 7.9 that to me, sounds better and does a better job with my Pany 65. I wasn't even looking for a difference in the picture but it kind of caught my attention. I had both units and there was no doubt the Integra was the one I liked for sound and video. Interesting is my Bryston went out so it was out for service. I had the both the 4520 and the integra. Both using inboard amps. Not a side by side as I had already shipped the 4520. I personally agree with the comments made by "that guy" that this unit has some shortfalls. Even a review stated sonic issues. 
I will no longer post negatives on this thread as I realize it's not good etiquette but I wanted at least to get my personal experience out. Matter of fact, I will unsubscribe to this thread so I don't get tempted.

I'm in a holding pattern for a new AVR. The 7.9 is a temporary solution. 

OK, so you didn't like the 4520, and liked the Onkyo better, big deal. Nothing wrong with that, it's what you like. That's all that matters at the end of the day.

FWIW every AVR (every electronic gizmo for that matter), has shortcomings. There is no getting around it and no such thing as the perfect unit. Comparing an AVR to separates is unfair, the two trains don't meet. An AVR is a box with a power supply and one to 9 amp boards in it let's say with a thousand other things in it resulting in an over-engineered design trying to do everything, it isn't going to be perfect, it's inevitable. With a box stuffed full of electronics for sound, video, digital process up the kazoo, etc. your going to have sonic issues. It's the way it is. No AVR is going to have the sound quality if dedicated separates.

Good luck holding out for the perfect AVR, but I'm afraid you'll be holding forever.
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post #7851 of 8836 Old 04-24-2014, 07:38 AM
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Dolby Atmos... Which is not out in any AVR... At this time it is only in commercial theaters.

Sorry, thanks for the correction. So much stuff out there and all the acronyms and everything it gets scrambled in my head. Atmos easily becomes Atoms for example, plus I did physics classes so that's where my mind goes.
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post #7852 of 8836 Old 04-24-2014, 07:39 AM
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Thanks. Good to know and explains a few things. After doing 3 TVs with it I think I can conclude that using nothing but one's eyes may be better than the Spyder while the Spyder is better than letting some guy from the store calibrate your TV.
Out of curiosity, is there a TV calibration gizmo that is affordable to most folks that has a better track record you can suggest?

I have one of the colorimeter and software bundles from SpectraCal. This solution is affordable, and produces good results. You can see my results by following the link in my sig.
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post #7853 of 8836 Old 04-24-2014, 07:39 AM
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OK, so you didn't like the 4520, and liked the Onkyo better, big deal. Nothing wrong with that, it's what you like. That's all that matters at the end of the day.

FWIW every AVR (every electronic gizmo for that matter), has shortcomings (A lot of the time they turn out to be minor, but sometimes not). There is no getting around it and no such thing as the perfect unit. Comparing an AVR to separates is unfair, the two trains don't meet. An AVR is a box with a power supply and one to 9 amp boards in it let's say with a thousand other things in it resulting in an over-engineered design trying to do everything, it isn't going to be perfect, it's inevitable. With a box stuffed full of electronics for sound, video, digital process up the kazoo, etc. your going to have sonic issues. It's the way it is. No AVR is going to have the sound quality if dedicated separates.

Good luck holding out for the perfect AVR, but I'm afraid you'll be holding forever.
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post #7854 of 8836 Old 04-24-2014, 07:42 AM
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Well I guess I am about to live with those short falls for years to come...

Same here.
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post #7855 of 8836 Old 04-24-2014, 07:44 AM
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.... Comparing an AVR to separates is unfair, the two trains don't meet. An AVR is a box with a power supply and one to 9 amp boards ..... It's the way it is. No AVR is going to have the sound quality if dedicated separates.

.

Fwiw, and speaking as an AVR-4311ci Owner, I think my AVR has considerable benefits over a lot of Preamp/Amp Separate configurations especially when bang for your buck is considered. Agreed, Audyssey isn't for everyone but look how many people are using all of these upperend units as a preamp for separate amplification. Then again, look at how many people who own external amps say these units power their speakers as efficiently as their external amps.
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Not expecting perfection. I expect the minimum would be reliability and sonic excellence in a flagship.

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post #7857 of 8836 Old 04-24-2014, 08:25 AM
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I have one of the colorimeter and software bundles from SpectraCal. This solution is affordable, and produces good results. You can see my results by following the link in my sig.

Thank you, I'll check one of those out.
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post #7858 of 8836 Old 04-24-2014, 08:41 AM
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Fwiw, and speaking as an AVR-4311ci Owner, I think my AVR has considerable benefits over a lot of Preamp/Amp Separate configurations especially when bang for your buck is considered. Agreed, Audyssey isn't for everyone but look how many people are using all of these upperend units as a preamp for separate amplification. Then again, look at how many people who own external amps say these units power their speakers as efficiently as their external amps.

Oh, I'm not saying an AVR can't sound good or very good. Heck, my wonky 6 year old Onkyo sounds good. (Has a high noise floor though). AVRs have come a long way. I'm just saying AVRs and separates are not the same when it comes to noise floors and sonics and such. They are two different builds that's all. As for "bang for buck" I couldn't agree with you more. I know I for one can't afford separates. As far as powering speakers, many top shelf AVRs have no trouble at all in that department depending on the speaker handling ability of course. If my "realistically" 80 WPC Onkyo can drive my Paradigms, I almost can't wait to hear what the 4520 will do with them..
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Originally Posted by luvmusic View Post

Oh, I'm not saying an AVR can't sound good or very good. Heck, my wonky 6 year old Onkyo sounds good. (Has a high noise floor though). AVRs have come a long way. I'm just saying AVRs and separates are not the same when it comes to noise floors and sonics and such. They are two different builds that's all. As for "bang for buck" I couldn't agree with you more. I know I for one can't afford separates. As far as powering speakers, many top shelf AVRs have no trouble at all in that department depending on the speaker handling ability of course. If my "realistically" 80 WPC Onkyo can drive my Paradigms, I almost can't wait to hear what the 4520 will do with them..

Not to be argumentative but to give a second opinion, if you follow other discussions in this and the Audio Theory section of the forum I feel that even running separates won't be more advantageous than an upper-end AVR. Not only can I play my Multichannel Music to achieve an enjoyable 80 dB level with 94 dB peaks, we can play movies at Reference Level in our "9.2" system with dual subs calibrated individually (and then blended together) AND the ability to add a 2 channel amp to drive an 11.2 configuration if we wanted to. I don't use all of the multi-room and zone configurations but don't think alot of preamps have that ability as well and again, Audyssey MultEQ x32 is pretty cool. Imo, the best argument for external amps is that you can update processor to use with it at will but the prices of these upperend AVRs have come down considerably
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post #7860 of 8836 Old 04-24-2014, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

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Not to be argumentative but to give a second opinion, if you follow other discussions in this and the Audio Theory section of the forum I feel that even running separates won't be more advantageous than an upper-end AVR. Not only can I play my Multichannel Music to achieve an enjoyable 80 dB level with 94 dB peaks, we can play movies at Reference Level in our "9.2" system with dual subs calibrated individually (and then blended together) AND the ability to add a 2 channel amp to drive an 11.2 configuration if we wanted to. I don't use all of the multi-room and zone configurations but don't think alot of preamps have that ability as well and again, Audyssey MultEQ x32 is pretty cool. Imo, the best argument for external amps is that you can update processor to use with it at will but the prices of these upperend AVRs have come down considerably

I don't disagree with anything you say here and it's good to hear for those of us (including myself) who can't go the separates route. I was just coming from a pure data point, not comparing abilities.
FWIW I partially got the 4520 for XT32 (it's all I can do for my room and obviously damn better than nothing. From what I'm told I also have goodness to look forward to over my current XT). There are other reasons too of course.
Ah yes, one can add an external amp if one wants or needs to. I was going to do that (even though I don't need to go beyond 5.1) just for better 2-channel results, but I'm wanting to just use the 4520 as is for a while first. There's a rather good chance that I may find that nothing more is needed.
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