The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 283 - AVS Forum
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post #8461 of 8868 Old 06-18-2014, 03:43 AM
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I'm getting ready to mount speakers behind 'speaker grill fabric' and an acoustically transparent screen. I'm assuming that 4520's Audyssey will attempt to compensate for associated HF attenuation. Have you experienced/heard of anyone having success with this compensation? Or is the HF simply unable to accurately penetrate a double-barrier like this?

On a positive note, I'm looking forward to this twin-veiled setup curbing the 'tape hiss' from all my 80's mix tapes.

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post #8462 of 8868 Old 06-18-2014, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwa View Post
2x Klipsch RF-7II / Klipsch RC-64II / 4x Klipsch RS-62II and I'll be adding 2x Klipsch RB-81II for front heights in about a month. Once the AVR-X7200W is released in December, I'll add two or four in-ceiling speakers as well.
Sweet setup. I always had a thing for Klipsch. My friend had reference 7 series from 10 years ago I think. They are made proudly here in Indiana where I reside. Our 40k person concert venue is the Klipsch music center. I think it's a sign. Haha

Schwa- If you had to do it over again and only listened to HT on the mains set to small, would you not go with the RF-7iis? I'm sure they sound great with a 2 channel amp for music. Can the 4520ci be set easily to bypass Audessey and run 2 channels cleanly set to large?

Last edited by mikeltee; 06-18-2014 at 06:55 AM.
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post #8463 of 8868 Old 06-18-2014, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by mikeltee View Post
Sweet setup. I always had a thing for Klipsch. My friend had reference 7 series from 10 years ago I think. They are made proudly here in Indiana where I reside. Our 40k person concert venue is the Klipsch music center. I think it's a sign. Haha

Schwa- If you had to do it over again and only listened to HT on the mains set to small, would you not go with the RF-7iis? I'm sure they sound great with a 2 channel amp for music. Can the 4520ci be set easily to bypass Audessey and run 2 channels cleanly set to large?
Actually, Klipsch's headquarters is in Indiana, but the USA-made speakers are built in Hope, Arkansas.

I'm not sure I completely understand your question, but I recently upgraded to my current RF-7II system from an RF-82II / RC-62II / RS-52II system in my main HT setup. The RF-7IIs have a completely different compression driver than the rest of the Reference towers, so going with the RF-7IIs isn't just about the bass. And although I'm running them as "small," I cross them over at 40Hz, so they're barely "small." Also, I would definitely also go with the RF-7II for two-channel only and yes, it's easy to bypass Audyssey and run the mains full-range.

Last edited by Schwa; 06-18-2014 at 09:03 AM.
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post #8464 of 8868 Old 06-18-2014, 10:06 AM
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You answered my question perfectly. Thanks. I think I'll save up a little and match your set at 5.1 to start. What sub did you go with? I'm reading that Klipsch aficionados are ditching the subs in favor of other brands because you get a lot more for your money. Being in a basement on concrete, I'm going to need a lot of bass. Eventually I could like to build a riser for a second row of seats behind my MLP and put 2 subs in it. I have 7' behind my MLP to work with. I sit 8' from my tv and 7' from my L/C/R.


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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post
Actually, Klipsch's headquarters is in Indiana, but the USA-made speakers are built in Hope, Arkansas.

I'm not sure I completely understand your question, but I recently upgraded to my current RF-7II system from an RF-82II / RC-62II / RS-52II system in my main HT setup. The RF-7IIs have a completely different compression driver than the rest of the Reference towers, so going with the RF-7IIs isn't just about the bass. And although I'm running them as "small," I cross them over at 40Hz, so they're barely "small." Also, I would definitely also go with the RF-7II for two-channel only and yes, it's easy to bypass Audyssey and run the mains full-range.
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post #8465 of 8868 Old 06-18-2014, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WHATTHEDILEO View Post
I'm getting ready to mount speakers behind 'speaker grill fabric' and an acoustically transparent screen. I'm assuming that 4520's Audyssey will attempt to compensate for associated HF attenuation. Have you experienced/heard of anyone having success with this compensation? Or is the HF simply unable to accurately penetrate a double-barrier like this?

On a positive note, I'm looking forward to this twin-veiled setup curbing the 'tape hiss' from all my 80's mix tapes.

Audyssey doesn't know if the speakers are behind a screen or pointing up or down or are black or silver. All it does is listen to what the microphone "hears" and apply EQ filters to bring the response as close as possible to the desired reference target curve based upon the data collected from the measurement positions. So if it "hears" attenuated high frequencies, it will boost them as needed.

Out of curiosity though, if you are placing them behind an AT screen, why the "double barrier" with the speaker fabric also?
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post #8466 of 8868 Old 06-18-2014, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeltee View Post
You answered my question perfectly. Thanks. I think I'll save up a little and match your set at 5.1 to start. What sub did you go with? I'm reading that Klipsch aficionados are ditching the subs in favor of other brands because you get a lot more for your money. Being in a basement on concrete, I'm going to need a lot of bass. Eventually I could like to build a riser for a second row of seats behind my MLP and put 2 subs in it. I have 7' behind my MLP to work with. I sit 8' from my tv and 7' from my L/C/R.
I have two SVS PC12-NSDs.
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post #8467 of 8868 Old 06-18-2014, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mikeltee View Post
I see a lot of posts that people are setting their $3000 towers to small and not utilizing their full potential.
The problem is that you are starting with a fallacy with the premise that setting a fancy expensive tower speaker to "small" is not utilizing their full potential.

First of all, almost no tower speakers are truly "full range" regardless of how much they cost. Remember that each of the channels in a multich input signal are full range, with content potentially mixed down to 20Hz or lower. Even really nice tower speakers with big woofers are unable to reach down to 20-30Hz with any real authority, and even if they do have output down there are they able to maintain that output cleanly without compressing / distorting as the SPL rises to near reference levels? And can they reproduce that bottom octave or two better than the dedicated subwoofers?

Second, crossovers are not "brick walls". It's a sloped filter, so if your fancy tower speaker reaches down to 30Hz or so and you set them to small with a 40 or even 60Hz crossover, they are still going to be asked to produce output below the crossover. All you are doing is making the slope of their natural roll-off at the botttom end a bit steeper so it transitions cleanly to the subwoofer.

Third, remember that most low bass is mono, and it's highly unlikely that your tower speakers are placed in such a way that is optimal for bass reproduction with respect to the interaction with room acoustics. Audyssey doesn't measure the combined bass reproduction of the main channels, so even if each speaker measures perfectly flat down to 35Hz, when they are both playing the exact same signal the sum is almost certainly NOT flat.

Handing off the low bass to a dedicated, mono subwoofer system and then EQ'ing the summed response is going to lead to the flattest, most accurate bass reproduction. You gain the benefit of being able to place the subwoofers where they need to go for the best bass quality. You give the hardest, most power hungry frequencies to the subwoofers that were designed to reproduce them, not only easing the strain on the amps but also the main speakers since they can play louder with less distortion. The end result is that your system can play louder, clean, and will more accurately reproduce the full soundtrack.

Or, to flip the question around -- why would you spend thousands of dollars on high end subwoofers and then not utilize their full potential by setting your speakers to large?

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post #8468 of 8868 Old 06-18-2014, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Audyssey doesn't know if the speakers are behind a screen or pointing up or down or are black or silver. All it does is listen to what the microphone "hears" and apply EQ filters to bring the response as close as possible to the desired reference target curve based upon the data collected from the measurement positions. So if it "hears" attenuated high frequencies, it will boost them as needed.

Out of curiosity though, if you are placing them behind an AT screen, why the "double barrier" with the speaker fabric also?
Thanks for your consideration. The 125" AT screen is for serious movie nights. For quick & easy viewing, the screen will be retracted and a plasma will be presenting the show. I don't want to waste projector bulb-life on day-time dramas and cartoons played as 'background music'.

Perhaps it sounds foolish, but I wondered if Audyssey could overcome attenuation from a physical barrier. A wall is a barrier, and I doubt it could goose-up the treble enough to make speakers's upper octaves sound clear while playing behind a closed door. I don't know where the transition is between 'wall' and 'AT', where EQ is not enough to compensate.

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post #8469 of 8868 Old 06-18-2014, 07:11 PM
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Batpig- Great post. Thanks for your enlightenment! You have taught me a lot.

Schwa- those are some sweet speakers. I'd love to find a dealer near me to experience them. They look really cool too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
The problem is that you are starting with a fallacy with the premise that setting a fancy expensive tower speaker to "small" is not utilizing their full potential.

First of all, almost no tower speakers are truly "full range" regardless of how much they cost. Remember that each of the channels in a multich input signal are full range, with content potentially mixed down to 20Hz or lower. Even really nice tower speakers with big woofers are unable to reach down to 20-30Hz with any real authority, and even if they do have output down there are they able to maintain that output cleanly without compressing / distorting as the SPL rises to near reference levels? And can they reproduce that bottom octave or two better than the dedicated subwoofers?

Second, crossovers are not "brick walls". It's a sloped filter, so if your fancy tower speaker reaches down to 30Hz or so and you set them to small with a 40 or even 60Hz crossover, they are still going to be asked to produce output below the crossover. All you are doing is making the slope of their natural roll-off at the botttom end a bit steeper so it transitions cleanly to the subwoofer.

Third, remember that most low bass is mono, and it's highly unlikely that your tower speakers are placed in such a way that is optimal for bass reproduction with respect to the interaction with room acoustics. Audyssey doesn't measure the combined bass reproduction of the main channels, so even if each speaker measures perfectly flat down to 35Hz, when they are both playing the exact same signal the sum is almost certainly NOT flat.

Handing off the low bass to a dedicated, mono subwoofer system and then EQ'ing the summed response is going to lead to the flattest, most accurate bass reproduction. You gain the benefit of being able to place the subwoofers where they need to go for the best bass quality. You give the hardest, most power hungry frequencies to the subwoofers that were designed to reproduce them, not only easing the strain on the amps but also the main speakers since they can play louder with less distortion. The end result is that your system can play louder, clean, and will more accurately reproduce the full soundtrack.

Or, to flip the question around -- why would you spend thousands of dollars on high end subwoofers and then not utilize their full potential by setting your speakers to large?
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post #8470 of 8868 Old 06-18-2014, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
The problem is that you are starting with a fallacy with the premise that setting a fancy expensive tower speaker to "small" is not utilizing their full potential.

First of all, almost no tower speakers are truly "full range" regardless of how much they cost. Remember that each of the channels in a multich input signal are full range, with content potentially mixed down to 20Hz or lower. Even really nice tower speakers with big woofers are unable to reach down to 20-30Hz with any real authority, and even if they do have output down there are they able to maintain that output cleanly without compressing / distorting as the SPL rises to near reference levels? And can they reproduce that bottom octave or two better than the dedicated subwoofers?
Speak for your own set, mine doesn't have that limitation.

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post #8471 of 8868 Old 06-19-2014, 12:06 AM
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Speak for your own set, mine doesn't have that limitation.
So what speakers do you have that will go down to 20-30hz at reference levels without distortion?

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post #8472 of 8868 Old 06-19-2014, 01:16 AM
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So what speakers do you have that will go down to 20-30hz at reference levels without distortion?
Paradigm Ref 100's v5, their 3 db down point is 25 hz, ±2dB from 45 Hz - 22 kHz for L+R. At 92 db efficient doesn't take all that much power to get to reference levels with a CC-690 for center. (Reference levels just mean that your system is capable of 105dB peaks. ) They are a lot more reasonable then going with B&W 800 series. I thought about adding SVS SB-200's but find watching a lot of LFE active films don't need them to shake and rattle windows. I could have gone with smaller S20's around with sub12's, which also sound great, but always preferred larger, clean sounding, neutral speakers with home theater. Yes I have lots arguing I could have used emotiva amps rather then AVR-4520, but how loud do you need?

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post #8473 of 8868 Old 06-19-2014, 01:31 AM
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(Reference levels just mean that your system is capable of 105dB peaks. )
Well... it would be peaks in real life, but there's nothing preventing a continuous signal at 105dB in the standard.

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post #8474 of 8868 Old 06-19-2014, 03:07 AM
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Just received my Denon last evening, and it seems to be working as expected.

Just seem to have ran into an odd one, I have ran the audysssey calibration twice now, but switching on my gear now all audyssey functions are greyed out again, and button presses prompt "run auto calibration".
What am I missing here, all eq settings etc from my last run can be seen in the audyssey data menus.

Currently updating firmware atm so I'l see, but if this is a real case I dont want to have to run calibrations on a daily basis :P
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post #8475 of 8868 Old 06-19-2014, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by TorTorden View Post
Just received my Denon last evening, and it seems to be working as expected.

Just seem to have ran into an odd one, I have ran the audysssey calibration twice now, but switching on my gear now all audyssey functions are greyed out again, and button presses prompt "run auto calibration".
What am I missing here, all eq settings etc from my last run can be seen in the audyssey data menus.

Currently updating firmware atm so I'l see, but if this is a real case I dont want to have to run calibrations on a daily basis :P
That is an unusual issue!

First of all, am I correct in assuming that immediately upon completing the calibration, you have accessed the Audyssey menu and observed that Audyssey is indeed engaged, with settings that are visible and adjustable? That would indicate that the last step of the calibration, in which the calibration results are written to the AVR's flash memory, has completed successfully. At this point, I recommend that you immediately conduct a network configuration save, as described here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1430049/th...#post_22487485. Once you have the configuration saved, you can at least re-load it rather than having to re-run the calibration again, while you continue to trouble-shoot the issue.

The calibration, along with any other customizations you make in the AVR menu, are stored in flash memory. Here is another quick test for you to conduct: I assume that you have made other menu customizations, for example tailoring the AVR's inputs to match your setup, and perhaps re-naming an input. When you notice the Audyssey calibration has disappeared, what about the other customizations, are they gone as well? This might indicate a failing flash memory module, although I don't think I have ever heard of anyone reporting such a failure.

And finally, there have been reports of settings being lost due to an interruption of power to the AVR. Do you by any chance cut power to the AVR when you turn your equipment off? If yes, I would not recommend doing that.

If none of the things I have mentioned are applicable, the next step would be a processor re-set. If your calibration is still in the AVR, remember to do a network save first!
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post #8476 of 8868 Old 06-19-2014, 07:51 AM
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And finally, there have been reports of settings being lost due to an interruption of power to the AVR. Do you by any chance cut power to the AVR when you turn your equipment off? If yes, I would not recommend doing that.
This is in my working theory, I was heavily conditioned to unplug as much as possible from early childhood, so at night i usually switch off the power strips running the HT, I'l refrain from this now.
I purposefully didn't mention this to see if anyone else would
Either that or I was messing with a setting somewhere that triggers a recal from audyssey (amp assignments maybe?)

I was indeed playing around with the various audyssey modes last night, and becoming rather suprised how much more width and particularly height in the sound stage using the regular audyssey modes.
In fact all drawbacks I could identify against my pioneer lx85 vanishes with audyssey applied.

So far today i have applied a firmware update, recalibrated and done a network save as you mentioned.

Just now finished a few clips from art of flight and pacific rim.
So far very pleased (barring I won't have recal to soon) seems like audyssey really cleans up some resonances and thus opens up the soundstage for both more air and low frequency extension.

I do however find it slightly strange that audyssey sets the front three as full range, and the small sides with a crossover at 40hz, the sub also get a volume setting that's 5db lower than any other channel.

I manually override this so my two fronts get a crossover at 40hz, the center at 60hz, and for the sides i use my old setting of 100hz.
And so far I am very pleased with the sound.

The further I get it tweaked right, the more I think it inches ahead the pioneer across the board.
Only thing the pioneer do have that this does not is an RF remote, I keep the electronics in my office so for now I have the luxury problem of only being able to control it via my harmony and android tablet :-P

I see an IR extender in my future.
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post #8477 of 8868 Old 06-19-2014, 07:56 AM
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There are a number of setting that, when changed, will require a new Audyssey calibration. Among those are adding speakers to the configuration (not removing speakers), and selecting a different amplifier assignment. My recommendation would be to refrain from configuration changes, keep power applied to the AVR, and see if the settings are preserved over time.
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post #8478 of 8868 Old 06-19-2014, 09:01 AM
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Thanks again for the replies :-)

Do you know if disabling the L/R/C speaker outputs would do this, curious since I have an emotiva xpa 5 running those.

Anyhoo I really don't mind running calibrations if it is something I trigger, I will tend to play around with every button/feature I find so good to know :-)

Update:
Found it.
Just tried it again, setting amp assign to custom.
Disabling LCR outputs and activate zone2/3 mono, I have an extra center speaker that will be great in the kitchen, and the audyssey options disappear and it wants a recal.
Setting it all back and the audyssey options return.

I of course happened to be playing around with amp assignments first thing this morning ;-)

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post #8479 of 8868 Old 06-19-2014, 09:46 AM
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Mystery solved. It's all part of learning a complex new toy.
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post #8480 of 8868 Old 06-19-2014, 10:19 AM
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Indeed, half the fun too.
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post #8481 of 8868 Old 06-19-2014, 10:08 PM
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Change in email notifications

Hi forum members.
I subscribe to many AVS forums and have always recieved nicely formatted daily emails, with links to updated threads which take to the my last point in the thread.
I am now getting plain format emails, without links to the my most recent viewing point.

Has there been a change that I am not aware of, and how do I get the email notifications back to the previous format.

Phil
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post #8482 of 8868 Old 06-19-2014, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmcduie View Post
Hi forum members.
I subscribe to many AVS forums and have always recieved nicely formatted daily emails, with links to updated threads which take to the my last point in the thread.
I am now getting plain format emails, without links to the my most recent viewing point.

Has there been a change that I am not aware of, and how do I get the email notifications back to the previous format.

Phil
Holy off-topic post!

The forum has changed software platforms in the past few days so there's been some growing pains.

Maybe you should ask for help in the Forum Operations section and not in the AVR-4520CI thread.
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post #8483 of 8868 Old 06-20-2014, 12:19 AM
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Holy off-topic post!

The forum has changed software platforms in the past few days so there's been some growing pains.

Maybe you should ask for help in the Forum Operations section and not in the AVR-4520CI thread.
Apologies for posting here, but this is one of the main threads that I subscribe to and was hoping that it had been experienced by other users who subscribe to this same thread.

If anyone can point me to where it is approriate for this post ( I have no idea what you are talking about - Forum Operations section), it would be appreciated.
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post #8484 of 8868 Old 06-20-2014, 04:14 AM
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Apologies for posting here, but this is one of the main threads that I subscribe to and was hoping that it had been experienced by other users who subscribe to this same thread.

If anyone can point me to where it is approriate for this post ( I have no idea what you are talking about - Forum Operations section), it would be appreciated.
Here you go.
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post #8485 of 8868 Old 06-20-2014, 05:02 AM
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Have another question for today.
I have been poking around on the webinterface this morning (loving it for it's uses)
and notice that at the bottom of the speaker settings page I have options for speaker settings for 2ch playback, letting copying my fronts speaker levels and distances and letting me set the speakers to large or small.


This options suprises me, since I cannot find it in the normal OSD menu of the receiver, only in the web interface.
And am I correct in thinking these settings applies for any 2ch signal, for example HDMI inputs, or just analogs or spdif?.

This would be neat cause I often set netflix and my cable box to stereo output simply because I prefer not to have the subwoofers on with these sources, I tend to listen to those source at rather low volumes, and the amps in my subwoofers hums.
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Last edited by TorTorden; 06-20-2014 at 05:05 AM.
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post #8486 of 8868 Old 06-20-2014, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
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The web interface is not "smart" in the sense that it will not hide settings which are unavailable and/or irrelevant to the current state. So for example if you go the surround parameters section it will show parameters that don't actually apply to the mode you are using

In this case the 2ch settings only apply if you have it set up with a SEPARATE pair of 2ch speakers using one of the 2ch or Front B amp assign modes. In these modes you can apply different distance, level, and bass management settings.

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post #8487 of 8868 Old 06-20-2014, 07:56 AM
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I'm looking at this unit as an upgrade for the 4311 and have a question. On the 4311 when you select a given input source, like an HDMI video, and assign it to a slot like, say, DVD, it's no longer available for any of the other slots. I'd like to use a video input more than once and use it in two different slots, one as is and another that uses the same HDMI cable but with the analog audio inputs. Does the 4520 allow use of a given source more than once, or is it like the 4311 and does not permit it? Thank you so much.

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post #8488 of 8868 Old 06-20-2014, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
The web interface is not "smart" in the sense that it will not hide settings which are unavailable and/or irrelevant to the current state. So for example if you go the surround parameters section it will show parameters that don't actually apply to the mode you are using

In this case the 2ch settings only apply if you have it set up with a SEPARATE pair of 2ch speakers using one of the 2ch or Front B amp assign modes. In these modes you can apply different distance, level, and bass management settings.
Just finished reading half way through this thread, Google found some posts saying just that ;-)

But this doesn't track entirely right with what I am experiencing as I am playing around with this.

First things first I don't have a second set of stereo speakers, so this should not apply.
I have the channel in stereo mode, aydyssey flat with dynamic eq at 10db.
I have set my 2ch playback settings as large.
My normal settings are small fronts with a testing cross over set to 100hz.

The track I am currently playing is "Bliss-song for Olabi" one of my bass test tracks I know well.

It does definetely do something for the subwoofers, but I also think the fronts are exposed to their regular/main cross over setting.

So this setting do affect my subwoofers setting, but not the mains I was merely getting fooled by my low crossover point to thinking they where full range.
And this leads me to think denon took a quick route with the menu, in other words they merely grey out the menu under manual speakers, but does not disable the settings themselves and the web interface act as a backdoor.

;-)
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post #8489 of 8868 Old 06-20-2014, 02:00 PM
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Hello

My receiver disappears from the network after an hour. I'm not able to ping or connect with the Denon IOS app.

I have to switch off/on the receiver to get back the network. But after an hour or so the network is down again.

I changed the network switch and bought a new network cable. I tried static IP and dynamic IP via DHCP. The issue is the same.

I make sure the chosen IP is unique in my network. So i guess no IP error. The physical link is up but not service is answering. No web interface and no telnet connection. I guess the complete network software in the receiver is stuck.

I tried Denon support and they suggest to send the receiver to repair. Yesterday i received the receiver back but the issue is the same.

Do you have any idea whats wrong ? Maybe it's my fault but i don't know whats wrong.

andy
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post #8490 of 8868 Old 06-20-2014, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post
Paradigm Ref 100's v5, their 3 db down point is 25 hz, ±2dB from 45 Hz - 22 kHz for L+R. At 92 db efficient doesn't take all that much power to get to reference levels with a CC-690 for center. (Reference levels just mean that your system is capable of 105dB peaks. ) They are a lot more reasonable then going with B&W 800 series. I thought about adding SVS SB-200's but find watching a lot of LFE active films don't need them to shake and rattle windows. I could have gone with smaller S20's around with sub12's, which also sound great, but always preferred larger, clean sounding, neutral speakers with home theater. Yes I have lots arguing I could have used emotiva amps rather then AVR-4520, but how loud do you need?
I'm using the exact same set up except without a sub and Paradigm center (The center is coming in a couple of months though - going with a CC-590 which will be more than plenty for me).
I agree, the Studios can reach down low enough to dig holes under themselves it seems, however, I would not know about them being able to maintain without distortion and all that at reference levels. I never even get anywhere near reference level in my listening. I don't like loud volume and I live in an apartment so there ya have it.
I'm mostly music, so the Studios are more than capable of reaching down low enough. I do run the occasional movie though and they reach down darn low, but not enough for that "feel the bass" effect. That said though I must point out again that I also don't get real loud so I may be missing.
Anyway, my Studios seem to like my 4520 quite well and far better than the Onkyo TX-705 they were trying to feed from....hungry guys.
I'm still digging around trying to learn the 4520. I have yet to figure out how to assign the amps I'm not using to the front mains and have yet to find the web app.
the only thing I don't like about the 4520 are the stupid sound modes such as Stadium concert, Jazz club, and all that. They are horrible and very out-dated. Give me the Neo and Dolby, pure, direct and such any day, but that other stuff is a waste.
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