The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 289 - AVS Forum
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post #8641 of 10256 Old 07-06-2014, 10:07 PM
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Yeah this receiver is a beauty! I wish I knew why the audyssey cal stopped working but hopefully i'll get it resolved because this receiver is very impressive. I know the day I got it I also got the Denon 3313UDCI blu ray player and I had to send it back because it was defective. The 2nd one though has been great. Man i've had so many other brands of equipment go bad and I just have come to the reality that regardless of the brand, there's so much technology in stuff nowadays it's just a norm. One thing I make sure of is getting a good coverage or warranty on everything I buy because it makes switching things out alot easier.

80 in Sharp Aquos Quattron led 3d tv
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post #8642 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 01:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longtimelurker View Post
can someone please email me the 4520 firmware file. i understand AVS is no longer doing this as part of thier service, but my 4520 has been nothing but trouble with the network source GUI/ now playing.

i sent it in for warranty service 3 months ago and everything checked out...they said firmware was corrupt so they did a usb firmware update and all good. it worked fine for 3 months and now the network gui is gone again. since my firmware is "up to date" i cant do it through the regular route.

i am not interested in shipping it back to a service center (was gone for 4-5 weeks due to number of denon units needing service). my only options are to do the force update myself, force denon to take it back, or initiate a claim on my credit card (lemon protection).

purchased from avs in august 2013.

Please help! thanks!
Firmware corruption can happen I suppose, but I would not attribute it as the cause of your unit's misbehaviour.

You can try this:
Starting with your unit already powered up and (any) NETWORK source selected;
1. verify from your unit's own fluorescent display that the source is indeed the network,
and the monitor device (TV) not showing the network GUI.
2. Imagine a line at the back panel just above where the hdmi connectors are that extends across the unit from left to right side.
3. Repeated exert some moderate finger pressure on the unit's back panel along the imaginary line while watching the output video device.

You could get the GUI back, albeit, temporarily.

If you do not succeed, try loosening the three (screws) at the back that attaches the cover to the back panel to give it more "give", then repeat the process.

----
Good luck,
From GoodMan
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post #8643 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 03:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
I rest my case..
The nay sayers have arrived and I have no intention to spoil this thread with a discussion on whether different amps sound the same.
You are welcome to your opinion and vice versa.
Cheers
Yes, that is a good point and I agree. It isn't the place for it in this thread. All I'd say is that you shot first (With the 'musicality' comment).
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post #8644 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Yes, that is a good point and I agree. It isn't the place for it in this thread. All I'd say is that you shot first (With the 'musicality' comment).


I know it's wishful, but Denon will make quite a few more fans if they allow a 'transplant' of an Atmos module with the right DSP chips into the 4520. I know this is pure fantasy, so I have sold my 4520 in anticipation of the next iteration...

But the news of the crippled HDCP / HDMI 2 implementation have not been too encouraging...
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post #8645 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post


I know it's wishful, but Denon will make quite a few more fans if they allow a 'transplant' of an Atmos module with the right DSP chips into the 4520. I know this is pure fantasy, so I have sold my 4520 in anticipation of the next iteration...

But the news of the crippled HDCP / HDMI 2 implementation have not been too encouraging...

Definitely fantasy IMO, unfortunately. I'm not bothered about HDMI 2.0 at this time. By the time I am bothered, I will probably have upgraded yet again. But yeah...
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post #8646 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 09:09 AM
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Well, haters gonna hate, nothing can be done about that.
Personally, having now owned the 4520 for about 2 months, I find it to my liking except for one thing I don't understand.
The majority of sound mode settings are completely not only useless, but ruin the sound. In fact those settings are not compatible with any medium format in use today. I'm talking about all the reverb settings. There are not as many useful sound mode settings on the 4520 as there were on my Onkyo TX705. On the other hand, I usually only use one of 3 or 4 at any given time and the ones I use are there, so I'm not necessarily missing anything, but it just feels like it because I feel Denon should have dropped modes like "Arena", "Concert Hall" etc. a few years back.

As for how "musical" it is. Well, it's an AVR so it's only going to do what it does. Sure, separates would most likely have better processing for 2-channel sound, but at the same time since I can't afford and don't have room for two dedicated systems I have to go with an AVR. To my ears, for music (which is what I do mostly with the occasional movie thrown in), the 4520 is "musical" enough. I don't know what "musical" in reference to amps is supposed to be about outside of pre/pro duties. Separation, staging,etc. has more to do with speakers, speaker placement, and in the case of vinyl playback, cartridges and alignment. There is the case of DACS of course and clean amplification.
Different amps can sound quite a bit different. My 4520 does sound different than my Onkyo. Better? Worse? Neither, just different. I do think to my ears that the 4520 does far better with streaming media and vinyl playback than my Onkyo did. I also think that the 4520 has far far better amplification than my Onkyo did and it is proven just by looking at the build.
All in all I think the 4520 is a fine machine.

On a related note: I had a look at the new replacement for the 4520 via info out of Europe and such. I was a little concerned that it may be quite a bit different and even better, but so far I find it to be almost identical to the 4520 in every way except for the UHD stuff which I don't care about. Layout on inside and the rear and front are exactly the same. To me this is all a good thing.
My only question is whether or not Denon finally decided to get rid of all the outdated reverb sound modes.
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post #8647 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 09:10 AM
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What I thought sucked,

Is, I was hoping to get some multi zone suggestions, as well as maybe some advice on how to use some settings after running the audacity cal program again...

But, some one tends to think adding amps adds to the stereo seperation (musicality) some how.

So really guys...... what do you guys use with the other zones. Ie: cables, length, where to, to what other equipment, are there any setup tricks to make things work.

I ask because, I was trying to send the same A/V signal to my out side porch as in my ht, but I kept loosing audio. And I'm not willing to give up 11.2 audio just to step out side to take a smoke brake.
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post #8648 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luvmusic View Post
Well, haters gonna hate, nothing can be done about that.
Personally, having now owned the 4520 for about 2 months, I find it to my liking except for one thing I don't understand.
The majority of sound mode settings are completely not only useless, but ruin the sound. In fact those settings are not compatible with any medium format in use today. I'm talking about all the reverb settings. There are not as many useful sound mode settings on the 4520 as there were on my Onkyo TX705. On the other hand, I usually only use one of 3 or 4 at any given time and the ones I use are there, so I'm not necessarily missing anything, but it just feels like it because I feel Denon should have dropped modes like "Arena", "Concert Hall" etc. a few years back.

As for how "musical" it is. Well, it's an AVR so it's only going to do what it does. Sure, separates would most likely have better processing for 2-channel sound, but at the same time since I can't afford and don't have room for two dedicated systems I have to go with an AVR. To my ears, for music (which is what I do mostly with the occasional movie thrown in), the 4520 is "musical" enough. I don't know what "musical" in reference to amps is supposed to be about outside of pre/pro duties. Separation, staging,etc. has more to do with speakers, speaker placement, and in the case of vinyl playback, cartridges and alignment. There is the case of DACS of course and clean amplification.
Different amps can sound quite a bit different. My 4520 does sound different than my Onkyo. Better? Worse? Neither, just different. I do think to my ears that the 4520 does far better with streaming media and vinyl playback than my Onkyo did. I also think that the 4520 has far far better amplification than my Onkyo did and it is proven just by looking at the build.
All in all I think the 4520 is a fine machine.

On a related note: I had a look at the new replacement for the 4520 via info out of Europe and such. I was a little concerned that it may be quite a bit different and even better, but so far I find it to be almost identical to the 4520 in every way except for the UHD stuff which I don't care about. Layout on inside and the rear and front are exactly the same. To me this is all a good thing.
My only question is whether or not Denon finally decided to get rid of all the outdated reverb sound modes.
yes, those are totally worthless IMO. But I'm sure someone would complain if they were gone. And, like an ashtray in your car, you're getting it whether you want it or not.


I find the 4520 plenty musical. Try playing the Blu Ray series " The Pacific " and listen to that wonderful opening music ( that's the only kind of music I listen to on the 4520 ). Michael Jackson's " This Is It " or " Moulin Rouge " or any movie with an Eric Serra soundtrack sound pretty damn musical to me !

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post #8649 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 10:16 AM
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I have recently moved on from my problem free 3808ci to the 4520ci. I have not experienced any issues with my 4520ci but that is why I am posting. I am on my second unit now and I wondering if I didn't need to return the first unit. I didn't have any problems with the first unit but did notice a slight hum or buzz emanating from inside the unit. You could only hear it if your ear was very close (as in inches) from the chassis. I discovered this as I was making my final connections and once I heard it and knew it was there, I couldn't "unhear" it. This is a big purchase for me so I didn't want to get something that could potentially be having issues on the first day. I did not know if this was normal so I plugged in my 3808ci again and the 3808ci was silent until I placed my ear over the transformer and then ,and only then, I was able to detect a very minor buzz but the room needed to be dead silent to hear it.

I decided to stop by the store where I made the purchase to listen to the 4520ci on display to see if it exhibited the same buzz/hum as the one I purchased. I didn't hear anything. I asked the salesman how long the unit had been on display and to that he replied "about 3 weeks". I asked if he wouldn't mind swapping out the units since he was unsure when/if the store would be receiving any additional 4520ci units. He agreed and I made the exchange with my model and his floor model. Once home, I connected the floor model receiver and it has the same hum/buzz as my 3808ci. Meaning that I have to be right on top of it and in a quiet room to hear anything at all.

I know that Denon offers a 3 year warranty with this particular receiver and I was already looking into getting some sort of extended warranty but my main concern is how concerned should I be that this was a floor model? I am still well within the window to return it and ask if there is any way he can get me another "new" unit.

I understand that with these devices there can be a slight hum/buzz but the original 4520 seemed to be slightly louder than what I would guess is the norm, however, I am no expert. Have any of you noticed this hum/buzz with your 4520s? Any suggestions/input will be greatly appreciated.
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post #8650 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 10:34 AM
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I only hear a buzz if I've had 7 glasses of wine first. Otherwise ( seriously ), no buzz.

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post #8651 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 11:42 AM
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ill try anything, but can you tell me the reasoning? loose hdmi board? cold solder joint? i am very comfortable working with smt components if you can point me in the direction of what might be the issue?
Quote:
Originally Posted by doognam View Post
Firmware corruption can happen I suppose, but I would not attribute it as the cause of your unit's misbehaviour.

You can try this:
Starting with your unit already powered up and (any) NETWORK source selected;
1. verify from your unit's own fluorescent display that the source is indeed the network,
and the monitor device (TV) not showing the network GUI.
2. Imagine a line at the back panel just above where the hdmi connectors are that extends across the unit from left to right side.
3. Repeated exert some moderate finger pressure on the unit's back panel along the imaginary line while watching the output video device.

You could get the GUI back, albeit, temporarily.

If you do not succeed, try loosening the three (screws) at the back that attaches the cover to the back panel to give it more "give", then repeat the process.

----
Good luck,
From GoodMan
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post #8652 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 11:47 AM
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it worked. you are the man. thank you so much, i sent you a pm about permanant fix


Quote:
Originally Posted by doognam View Post
Firmware corruption can happen I suppose, but I would not attribute it as the cause of your unit's misbehaviour.

You can try this:
Starting with your unit already powered up and (any) NETWORK source selected;
1. verify from your unit's own fluorescent display that the source is indeed the network,
and the monitor device (TV) not showing the network GUI.
2. Imagine a line at the back panel just above where the hdmi connectors are that extends across the unit from left to right side.
3. Repeated exert some moderate finger pressure on the unit's back panel along the imaginary line while watching the output video device.

You could get the GUI back, albeit, temporarily.

If you do not succeed, try loosening the three (screws) at the back that attaches the cover to the back panel to give it more "give", then repeat the process.

----
Good luck,
From GoodMan
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post #8653 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 12:02 PM
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^^
Why not share your permanent solution with the thread as well?

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post #8654 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 12:41 PM
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post #8655 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
yes, those are totally worthless IMO. But I'm sure someone would complain if they were gone. And, like an ashtray in your car, you're getting it whether you want it or not.


I find the 4520 plenty musical. Try playing the Blu Ray series " The Pacific " and listen to that wonderful opening music ( that's the only kind of music I listen to on the 4520 ). Michael Jackson's " This Is It " or " Moulin Rouge " or any movie with an Eric Serra soundtrack sound pretty damn musical to me !
My quick 2 cents on the "different sound." I scored the Sherbourn PA 7350 seven channel amplifier on the closeout sale from Emotiva. It was an MSRP $4000 amp and sold for $2800 is right before the closeout prices. Everything about it SCREAMS quality. And it is supposed to be a top notch unit for high quality amps. I swore I heard differences when I hooked it up. I SWORE the drums were "more separate" from the rest of the instruments and more defined. Like before with a Denon 3313 I had everything was clumped together and then they separated with the high quality amp. And I thought the bass was better. I made a few posts here and there in excitement and of course got the mixed feelings about it. I then had someone blind test me and I was very inconsistent in what I thought. So I credited it towards "genuine wishful thinking." And I feel this is what happens. Both towards our minds "making" a unit sound better or worse.

A side note is if you use Audyssey...I you all know calibrations vary and are not identical. So my advice is to rerun calibrations until you like the sound. I have run probably 40 Audyssey cals the last couple years after adjustments or moving or new equipment. If you have a 3db swell over 2khz-6khz that you didn't before for whatever reason it may not sound as good. I have had Audyssey cals that I have thought have sounded particularly good after during demo time...and with the 4520
Craig Peer and quizzicus like this.
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post #8656 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
A side note is if you use Audyssey...I you all know calibrations vary and are not identical. So my advice is to rerun calibrations until you like the sound. I have run probably 40 Audyssey cals the last couple years after adjustments or moving or new equipment. If you have a 3db swell over 2khz-6khz that you didn't before for whatever reason it may not sound as good. I have had Audyssey cals that I have thought have sounded particularly good after during demo time...and with the 4520

I've found that too. And I found that using a mic boom stand from Amazon worked better than a tripod. And I found that using a tighter mic positioning pattern worked better.

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post #8657 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 01:31 PM
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i was asking if he had one. it may involve cold soldier joints im guessing so he may not want oi share publicly if connected to denon somehow. I am reasonably skilled in soldiering and at this point warranty is pretty useless if it has to be sent in every few months (and reports of people in their second, third, fourth unit).
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post #8658 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
This "solution" doesn't work for me--still no onscreen GUI when selecting Network.
take the screws out if you havent tried, they add a lot of rigidity to the back panel and you cant really flex it enough.
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post #8659 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longtimelurker View Post
i was asking if he had one. it may involve cold soldier joints im guessing so he may not want oi share publicly if connected to denon somehow. I am reasonably skilled in soldiering and at this point warranty is pretty useless if it has to be sent in every few months (and reports of people in their second, third, fourth unit).
Honestly, I could not think of a single permanent solution for any one of over 200 connectors in the unit's board-to-board connectors that can go loose.

Warranty service is the only other option I can think of, but this requires some honesty and guts from the service centre to really fix because it will cost them heaps.

The Goodman
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post #8660 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doognam View Post
Honestly, I could not think of a single permanent solution for any one of over 200 connectors in the unit's board-to-board connectors that can go loose.

Warranty service is the only other option I can think of, but this requires some honesty and guts from the service centre to really fix because it will cost them heaps.

The Goodman
how did you figure it out? just a lucky push? ill open up the unit this week and report back
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post #8661 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 03:20 PM
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I mostly always listen to music in 2CH STEREO, but decided to try PLii and wow, I was pleasantly surprised on how good it sounded. I don't recall it sounding that good when I used it on my old Yamaha RX V2700. I was curious to see what you guys use for music listening. I have Audyssey enabled on both STEREO and PLii. I tried DTS and others, but with my particular set up, PLii seemed to sound the best.

Life is what you make it.......
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post #8662 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longtimelurker View Post
how did you figure it out? just a lucky push? ill open up the unit this week and report back
Pay close attention to the board-to-board connectors. There are around 200 connections thru these between the main and the "digital" boards (do they call it hdmi board?).
I found, after inspection thru a good magnifying glass, that the female contacts of these connectors are not flexible . Once any of the contacts become loose due to corrosion, oxidation or physical movement -they do not spring back to make good contact. We'll simply have to learn to live with them, or perhaps, have the unit exchanged if still under warranty.

Good Man
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post #8663 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 06:18 PM
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Upgraders from the 3808ci to the 4520 was it worth it? I get the new Audyssey, which I really want, and the other features. How about pure sound, enjoyment, etc. I wouldn't mind hearing your stories.


Thanks,


Chip

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post #8664 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ril850 View Post
I mostly always listen to music in 2CH STEREO, but decided to try PLii and wow, I was pleasantly surprised on how good it sounded. I don't recall it sounding that good when I used it on my old Yamaha RX V2700. I was curious to see what you guys use for music listening. I have Audyssey enabled on both STEREO and PLii. I tried DTS and others, but with my particular set up, PLii seemed to sound the best.
Yea I go back and forth from Stereo and PL Music. I like that Stereo has a wider soundstage and my center is below tv with the high frequency driver about mid stomach height angled up, and LR are on top of Submersives and high frequency driver is about literally 2-3 inches above ear height. This is all while sitting of course. So stereo give me the sound "lifted" a bit without the center. But I sure do love the surround action ambience of the PL Music setting. I don't mind too much that it brings the focus inward a bit. But if I want to crank it stereo is the way to go in my system as my heights and wides can not handle super loud. My mains can go beyond what I can take.
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post #8665 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 06:28 PM
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So I am not sure if this is normal or not Just checking. But usually it will just say Audyssey DSX when I am watching a movie in DTS Master HD or Dolby Tru HD. You know the same thing just with heights and wides for ambient effect. But I just tried one of the BD demo discs and it was saying DTS Master HD+PLIIX or Dobly TRU HD+PLIIX. Something different there or is it just another way of saying the same thing?
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post #8666 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I've found that too. And I found that using a mic boom stand from Amazon worked better than a tripod. And I found that using a tighter mic positioning pattern worked better.
Yes!!! After I finished my DIY sound group Volt 10 coaxial surround speakers the Audyssey Calibration I got then was the absolute best I ever experienced. It was not night and day but a definite step up as I ran through many demos after. I was absolutely 100% satisfied. No harshness and the surround and bass integration and working together was just ridiculous. I feel since I have added heights and wides I lost that "one or two levels up" in that respect. I usually do my first mic position 100% precise, 94.25 inches from each side wall lol! Then I fan to each side for two measurements each with about 2 to 2.5 ft from widest to widest mic position. Then a few more inside at a slightly different depth. I will experiment with diff positions and I have read much on that topic. (Keith and Jerry say to themselves here, "Yes, me too...") I do know these definitive technology pro monitor 600's reach distortion much much earlier than my mains or surrounds and are the weakest link. BUT I always start the MV at -18 when movies start and creep to -15.5 to -16.5 usually. Sometimes -13 but those are the quieter soundtracks. Anyway so for ambient presence speakers they do alright. But if I crank PLII Music you get harshness.
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post #8667 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 06:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
So I am not sure if this is normal or not Just checking. But usually it will just say Audyssey DSX when I am watching a movie in DTS Master HD or Dolby Tru HD. You know the same thing just with heights and wides for ambient effect. But I just tried one of the BD demo discs and it was saying DTS Master HD+PLIIX or Dobly TRU HD+PLIIX. Something different there or is it just another way of saying the same thing?
It's not the same thing, DSX and PLIIx are two different options for surround expansion. The surround mode can change depending on the input signal and what the receiver has memorized (it keeps a memory bank of what surround mode you selected for each input signal, by source). The +PLIIx means it is adding Dolby Pro Logic IIx to create back surrounds (i.e. from a 5.1 soundtrack with only two surround channels) whereas Audyssey DSX is a different surround expansion that adds wide and/or height channels.

To really decode things you should actually dig into the input signal / surround mode info and not just read the limited text on the display. If you have your laptop open you can use the browser to navigate to Setup > General > Information and it will show the full info on input signal and surround mode. Also if you set the front panel display to show output channels it can show you which speakers are active based on the surround mode.

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post #8668 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 09:54 PM
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It's not the same thing, DSX and PLIIx are two different options for surround expansion. The surround mode can change depending on the input signal and what the receiver has memorized (it keeps a memory bank of what surround mode you selected for each input signal, by source). The +PLIIx means it is adding Dolby Pro Logic IIx to create back surrounds (i.e. from a 5.1 soundtrack with only two surround channels) whereas Audyssey DSX is a different surround expansion that adds wide and/or height channels.

To really decode things you should actually dig into the input signal / surround mode info and not just read the limited text on the display. If you have your laptop open you can use the browser to navigate to Setup > General > Information and it will show the full info on input signal and surround mode. Also if you set the front panel display to show output channels it can show you which speakers are active based on the surround mode.
I should have been more specific I was running one of the AVS BD demo discs through the Oppo. Since I have added wides and heights Audyssey DSX has always been there when Blu Ray clips or a full movie is playing. I will go now and look at the "Info" button on the Oppo. It puts up an info display very similar to the PS3 and includes the source format. Report back soon...
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post #8669 of 10256 Old 07-07-2014, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
I should have been more specific I was running one of the AVS BD demo discs through the Oppo. Since I have added wides and heights Audyssey DSX has always been there when Blu Ray clips or a full movie is playing. I will go now and look at the "Info" button on the Oppo. It puts up an info display very similar to the PS3 and includes the source format. Report back soon...
Major bone head move on my part. I was experimenting with the CC off during PLII Music earlier. I never do this so didn't think of it
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post #8670 of 10256 Old 07-08-2014, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by DevilsFan 24/7 View Post
I understand that with these devices there can be a slight hum/buzz but the original 4520 seemed to be slightly louder than what I would guess is the norm, however, I am no expert. Have any of you noticed this hum/buzz with your 4520s? Any suggestions/input will be greatly appreciated.

Mine is dead-quiet, except when its fans run. AVR4520's do not use toroids so, generally speaking, they should be quieter (except if the unit's transformer was poorly constructed that there are loose E's or I's).

One cause of hum inside the AVR enclosure is the power transformer, or the power amplifiers drawing too much current that some wires going thru and/or out of them generate enough magnetic force to vibrate magnetisable components around them. Your unit would be always HOT if this is the case.

Amplifier hum noise that appear at the speakers can be caused by a bad ground-loop in your setup. Plug all the devices connected to your AVR into the same outlet as your AVR - ie, power them all from only one connection board so that only one power cable is connected to the wall. (Lookup the net for ground loop hums)

Last edited by doognam; 07-08-2014 at 03:27 AM.
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