The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 296 - AVS Forum
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post #8851 of 8869 Old Yesterday, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
There are some pretty key differences/corrections though...
You stop it you!

If I keep reading your posts, I'll be buying a new receiver.
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post #8852 of 8869 Old Yesterday, 10:24 AM
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Hopefully my refurb 4520 will last me four years. That should be plenty of time for Dolby Atmos to mature. Then I can pick up a new receiver.

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post #8853 of 8869 Old Yesterday, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
There are some pretty key differences/corrections though...

Neo:X is primarily a surround expansion algorithm, it's not a discrete content delivery system. It's not a cinema technology either, it's just for surround expansion (matrixed) at home. So there is not a stream of Neo:X mastered content ready to be translated from cinema to home. If a studio wants to create a "discrete" Neo:X mix they have to intentionally take the time to create the matrix encoded mix for home.

Atmos on the other hand IS a cinema delivery system, and is already gaining wide acceptance in the pro film industry. The adoption rate for Atmos in cinemas has been faster for that of 5.1 digital back in the day, and many mixing studios are investing in the object based mixing hardware. There are going to be a LOT of object based film mixes in Cinema, and the scalability of an object based system like Atmos means it's relatively easy to package that for home delivery within existing Dolby Digital codecs. So the lack of "discrete content" for Neo:X really has zero bearing on the prospects for content with native Atmos soundtracks. Within a year (probably a few months really) there will be far more options for Atmos content at home then there will ever be for "native" Neo:X.

In that respect, it's much more analagous to 3D than Audyssey DSX or Neo:X in terms of how quickly adoption in cinema will spur the quick availability of content and hardware for the home user.

Also, DTS is not a "mastering" format, DTS-HD is a compression codec. Whether a studio choose to deliver a Blu-ray in DTS vs. Dolby TrueHD has no impact on the mastering or sound quality. They just use DTS because it's cheaper and easier (straight from industry pros like FilmMixer who post here). When they are already mastering the Atmos mix for theaters, encoding that particular BD in TrueHD for home delivery is mandatory and they will switch when they want to provide that content.

Finally, with respect to the "niche" aspect, that is definitely true to a degree, but remember that Dolby has thought about this and designed the upward-firing Atmos speakers which will allow anyone who has room for 5.1 to have Atmos (5.1.2 minimum) with no additional footprint. Obviously it's expensive now but within a few years it will trickle down to cheaper receivers and you can be sure companies like Onkyo are going to sell their HTIB setups with Atmos-enabled speakers packaged in. Shoot, Onkyo already has it in their new mid-priced ($500-600) 7ch receivers, it won't be long at all before an $800-1000 Onkyo or Yamaha HTIB setup at Best Buy is going to have upward firing modules built into the front L/R speakers for a simple 5.1.2 setup that will work for any "J6P" 5.1 channel living room buyer.
Whether Atmos makes any difference at all will be determined by how the discrete sound elements within the mixed soundscape, irrespective of specific playback loudspeaker configurations will work out. Its all good and fine that Dolby had made inroads into providing professional theaters another variation of recreating sound effects in a large seating area, but with a typical home theater like yours, I really doubt the differences from a movie with a energetic lossless audio track are going to be singular subpar to anything Dolby Atmos claims to reinvent.

For a long time now, the industry has been selling miniature speakers claiming they yield equivalent audio performance/dispersion to much large speakers we all grew up with. Claiming full range effects with Atmos is iffy IMHO.

Yes being able to mix discrete objects into the sound mix will be more expensive and challenging for all those re-recording mixers, sound designers, editors and sound supervisors, and there is the risk that this will equate to exactly what we all encountered with 3D visuals. But in every instance not necessary superior, more likely to be irritating. We shall see!

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post #8854 of 8869 Old Yesterday, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
Hopefully my refurb 4520 will last me four years. That should be plenty of time for Dolby Atmos to mature. Then I can pick up a new receiver.
You can say the same thing about 2160P@ 50/60 Hz video aka 4K.

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post #8855 of 8869 Old Yesterday, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post
Whether Atmos makes any difference at all will be determined by how the discrete sound elements within the mixed soundscape, irrespective of specific playback loudspeaker configurations will work out. Its all good and fine that Dolby had made inroads into providing professional theaters another variation of recreating sound effects in a large seating area, but with a typical home theater like yours, I really doubt the differences from a movie with a energetic lossless audio track are going to be singular subpar to anything Dolby Atmos claims to reinvent.
Fair enough, but this is the FIRST TIME we have had truly discrete VERTICAL sound elements. Every time some new upmix algorithm comes out (whether horizontal matrixing like PLIIx or vertical matrixing like Neo:X or DSX) there is always the chorus of, "I hate 'fake' channels, call me when there is discrete content up there." Atmos (and the other potential object formats) is really quite different from DSX or Neo:X in this respect as it's the first foray into truly discrete, three dimensional content that frees us from the constraints of specific channel layouts. It is designed to scale to any number of speakers, so if you like those overhead sounds from "Gravity" or whatever and you can throw a couple of speakers in the ceiling, now you can have it at home. And it's not "fake" synthesized/matrix audio. The sound will render where the mixer intended it to.

And I understand the skepticism, but the people who have reported actually HEARING the demos of Atmos at home (whether with in-ceiling or reflected upward-firing speakers) have been uniformly, unanimously impressed by how much better it is. It's not just about having a helicopter fly over your head, from what they've reported it takes the overall 3D immersion and sense of "being there" to a new level. Most have compared it as comparable to the jump from stereo to 5.1.

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post #8856 of 8869 Old Yesterday, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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And, BTW, just to be clear, I am not trying to shove everyone over the cliff of first adoption. I'm certainly not going to (it doesn't really make sense in my room anyway) and if somebody is looking for a good value and won't migrate to Atmos until the dust settles in a couple of years, the 4520CI on its clearance pricing is a GREAT option.

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post #8857 of 8869 Old Yesterday, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Fair enough, but this is the FIRST TIME we have had truly discrete VERTICAL sound elements. Every time some new upmix algorithm comes out (whether horizontal matrixing like PLIIx or vertical matrixing like Neo:X or DSX) there is always the chorus of, "I hate 'fake' channels, call me when there is discrete content up there." Atmos (and the other potential object formats) is really quite different from DSX or Neo:X in this respect as it's the first foray into truly discrete, three dimensional content that frees us from the constraints of specific channel layouts. It is designed to scale to any number of speakers, so if you like those overhead sounds from "Gravity" or whatever and you can throw a couple of speakers in the ceiling, now you can have it at home. And it's not "fake" synthesized/matrix audio. The sound will render where the mixer intended it to.

And I understand the skepticism, but the people who have reported actually HEARING the demos of Atmos at home (whether with in-ceiling or reflected upward-firing speakers) have been uniformly, unanimously impressed by how much better it is. It's not just about having a helicopter fly over your head, from what they've reported it takes the overall 3D immersion and sense of "being there" to a new level. Most have compared it as comparable to the jump from stereo to 5.1.
Always enjoy your posts and insight Batpig.

I just have a real problem with the current speaker marketplace most of what sells out there for consumers to enjoy is positively wretched, so teasing consumers with purchasing more speakers to compensate for poor full range output and dispersion is a double edge sword. Good if Atmos does indeed add discrete vertical channels that improve the audio immersion of one's home theater with these types of speakers, but then if you already using speakers with good vertical dispersion, why would you need separate upwards firing modules in the first place. Oh yeah, I don't want to miss those carefully programmed discrete objects that those sound engineers worked tirelessly on!

Cheers!

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post #8858 of 8869 Old Yesterday, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post
Recently Sound and Vision did a poll to establish the likelihood of people being even keen on Atmos. The results were as follows.

59% 5.1/5.2 channels

30% 7.1/7.2 channels

6% No surround for me. Good old-fashioned 2-channel stereo is all I need.

3% 9.1/9.2 channels

2% 11.1/11.2 or more channels

The point to come away from all this was vast majority of people are not into any system beyond 7.2, which entails no matter how desperate the industry is, your average home theater store will have a rough go convincing anyone on Atmos virtues, over good speakers selected along with room treatments.
Right now a lot folks don't care about Dolby Atmos sound it's alright in the movie theater if your gear sound good with Dolby digital you know you got something sounds good.
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post #8859 of 8869 Old Yesterday, 12:42 PM
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Right now a lot folks don't care about Dolby Atmos sound it's alright in the movie theater if your gear sound good with Dolby digital you know you got something sounds good.
Remember, almost no one has heard Dolby Atmos at home yet; but those few who have shared their impressions garnered at industry demos have been wowed, as batpig points out. Personally, I don't believe I would buy a new AVR just to get Dolby Atmos technology, and I have to believe that those who would represent a niche of a niche market.

However, as someone who was very close to purchasing the 4520 this year but who decided to hold off to see what the 2014 Denon models had to offer, I am now firmly decided in favor of the X5200 or X7200 (that mythical beast) instead. It remains to be seen just how successful the industry will be in promoting sales of Atmos-enabled AVR's, but I second batpig's analogy to 3D display technology. You would be hard pressed to find a decent TV these days that does not include it, but I would venture to guess that most of us (myself included) rarely if ever utilize it in relation to our 2D viewing. Similarly, I may never install Atmos speakers in my set-up (currently a "conventional" 11.1), but I appreciate the potential. And in the interim I will be able to use my 11.1 configuration to play back any Atmos source material utilizing the very flexible amp assign modes in the X5200.

Based on the currently projected MSRPs, I think D&M is wisely positioning the X4100/X5200/4520/X7200 gamut in the retail market; there's a model there for many different types of enthusiast--including those who opt for the now very attractively discount-priced 4520.
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post #8860 of 8869 Old Yesterday, 01:09 PM
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I just received this receiver; replaces Denon 5803; so I am trying to catch up. I have 7.2 system. I did the set up of speakers. I tried to run Audyssey several times; each time it ended by saying ambient noise to loud or volume too low. It ended each time on the center channel. I turned off every thing in the room; air conditioner, even took clock out, turned off ceiling fan and lights. Only thing on is tv, sony xbr65x90b and the Denon 4520 (the only thing I can hear in the room).
Read manual, with no results; Searched internet with every thing saying turn every thing off.
Thanks for any help.
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post #8861 of 8869 Old Yesterday, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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You aren't doing anything wrong. Sounds like a defective audyssey mic, possibly a defective mic jack.

Give the receiver a full microprocessor reset and try again. If it still doesn't work try contacting the vendor for a replacement mic.
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post #8862 of 8869 Old Yesterday, 02:02 PM
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You aren't doing anything wrong. Sounds like a defective audyssey mic, possibly a defective mic jack.

Give the receiver a full microprocessor reset and try again. If it still doesn't work try contacting the vendor for a replacement mic.
Thanks, I will reset when I get home. Hopefully that does it and I do not have to try getting a new audyssey mic.
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post #8863 of 8869 Old Yesterday, 02:09 PM
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Always enjoy your posts and insight Batpig.

I just have a real problem with the current speaker marketplace most of what sells out there for consumers to enjoy is positively wretched, so teasing consumers with purchasing more speakers to compensate for poor full range output and dispersion is a double edge sword. Good if Atmos does indeed add discrete vertical channels that improve the audio immersion of one's home theater with these types of speakers, but then if you already using speakers with good vertical dispersion, why would you need separate upwards firing modules in the first place. Oh yeah, I don't want to miss those carefully programmed discrete objects that those sound engineers worked tirelessly on!

Cheers!
I'm one of the people who have heard home Atmos (and at Dolby so it was all done properly) in a 6 seater HT setup and can confirm what batpig says about it. It truly is a huge, huge leap forwards. There may be a slight hyperbole when I say it;'s like going from stereo to 5.1 but it is slight, if anything. It is truly that sort of leap. Forget helicopters flying overhead and all that... yes, Atmos can handle that brilliantly, but it is so much more. The sense of immersion and 'being there' is truly astonishing. And with the Atmos speakers too not just the physical ceiling speakers.

I wrote a short review of the experience if you are interested. You'll find it here.
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post #8864 of 8869 Old Yesterday, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I'm one of the people who have heard home Atmos (and at Dolby so it was all done properly) in a 6 seater HT setup and can confirm what batpig says about it. It truly is a huge, huge leap forwards. There may be a slight hyperbole when I say it;'s like going from stereo to 5.1 but it is slight, if anything. It is truly that sort of leap. Forget helicopters flying overhead and all that... yes, Atmos can handle that brilliantly, but it is so much more. The sense of immersion and 'being there' is truly astonishing. And with the Atmos speakers too not just the physical ceiling speakers.

Quote:
I wrote a short review of the experience if you are interested. You'll find it here.
We were split into groups of six and taken into a small, 6 seater ‘home theatre’ on the first floor of the Dolby facility. Immediately on entering the room, I noticed that it was treated, including treatments running front to back down the centre of the ceiling, and that the 7.2.4 Atmos system which they were running consisted of two decently sized subs and 7 fairly modest looking bookshelf satellite speakers. In the ceiling I could see 4 modest in-ceiling speakers. I’d say the room was about 15 feet long and 12 feet wide, with an 8 foot ceiling, so the sort of space that many people could easily replicate at home. I would say that the system components in this room were of the sort that most people could afford - there was nothing that seemed in any way ‘over the top’, so Dolby had gone to lengths to make this room typical of what we could recreate for ourselves at home.
While that system might work well for their Atmos demo, I have my doubts on other more common material, such as music concerts. My first impression is this is like comparing a couple of 2 way bookcase speakers used as L +R, supported by a decent subwoofer. While it sounds darn good, it doesn't match a more expensive 3 or 4 way tower speaker used as L + R, then matched to a larger sub woofer. When you go even more upwards in price the realism achieved with reproduction of full orchestra content becomes quite breathtaking. I only used this as a example to get to my point of reference.

For home theater setups yes I have heard setups somewhat similar, using a combination of bookcase L +C+ R along with surround speakers that were the same or similar including speakers in the ceiling. These being paired with one or two large subwoofers. While they sound nice when you do room equalization, the sound still comes across like I was commenting in the 2.1 system. I have no doubt you were impressed with the precision of where the sound seems to come from for improvement of the audio effects, still commenting that setup is so much of a step up from a existing 5.1/7.1 setup like stereo is to 5.1 does make one tend to challenge you on that aspect as a universal statement.

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post #8865 of 8869 Old Yesterday, 03:20 PM
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I'm one of the people who have heard home Atmos (and at Dolby so it was all done properly) in a 6 seater HT setup and can confirm what batpig says about it. It truly is a huge, huge leap forwards. There may be a slight hyperbole when I say it;'s like going from stereo to 5.1 but it is slight, if anything. It is truly that sort of leap. Forget helicopters flying overhead and all that... yes, Atmos can handle that brilliantly, but it is so much more. The sense of immersion and 'being there' is truly astonishing. And with the Atmos speakers too not just the physical ceiling speakers.

I wrote a short review of the experience if you are interested. You'll find it here.

Hopefully there will be some good demos at Cedia in a few weeks.

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post #8866 of 8869 Old Yesterday, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
And, BTW, just to be clear, I am not trying to shove everyone over the cliff of first adoption. I'm certainly not going to (it doesn't really make sense in my room anyway) and if somebody is looking for a good value and won't migrate to Atmos until the dust settles in a couple of years, the 4520CI on its clearance pricing is a GREAT option.

That very well may be the route I go. I was drooling over the 4520 two years ago, got sidetracked, and now was drooling over it again a week ago. But now, just like the 'hot new chick' that just transferred to the school, I am drooling over the 5200 and the 7200. Still, I probably will end up going for the 9.2 4520, because the likelihood of adding two more speakers on the ceiling are close to nil.
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post #8867 of 8869 Old Today, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post
While that system might work well for their Atmos demo, I have my doubts on other more common material, such as music concerts. My first impression is this is like comparing a couple of 2 way bookcase speakers used as L +R, supported by a decent subwoofer. While it sounds darn good, it doesn't match a more expensive 3 or 4 way tower speaker used as L + R, then matched to a larger sub woofer. When you go even more upwards in price the realism achieved with reproduction of full orchestra content becomes quite breathtaking. I only used this as a example to get to my point of reference.
It's designed for movies. Can’t quite see the relevance of subwoofers to it, sorry.

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For home theater setups yes I have heard setups somewhat similar, using a combination of bookcase L +C+ R along with surround speakers that were the same or similar including speakers in the ceiling.
Trust me - you have heard nothing "similar".


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I have no doubt you were impressed with the precision of where the sound seems to come from for improvement of the audio effects, still commenting that setup is so much of a step up from a existing 5.1/7.1 setup like stereo is to 5.1 does make one tend to challenge you on that aspect as a universal statement.
Well I have heard it, so my comment stands. Go and listen - you might agree.
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post #8868 of 8869 Old Today, 04:55 AM
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That very well may be the route I go. I was drooling over the 4520 two years ago, got sidetracked, and now was drooling over it again a week ago. But now, just like the 'hot new chick' that just transferred to the school, I am drooling over the 5200 and the 7200. Still, I probably will end up going for the 9.2 4520, because the likelihood of adding two more speakers on the ceiling are close to nil.
That's a fine choice, no doubt; but note that--as I have already written--you will not have to mount ceiling speakers to benefit from Atmos (in addition to the other improvements in the upcoming X5200/X7200). I recommend you compare features/price once Denon officially introduces the new U.S. models and then make an informed decision. But to each his own.
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post #8869 of 8869 Old Today, 10:11 AM
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Just FYI - the 4520 sale ends on the 27th. That's tomorrow. Anyone that is interested in getting one before the sale ends, mail me with your phone number and I'll call you. You have about 36 hours !!

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