The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 296 - AVS Forum
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post #8851 of 8858 Old Today, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
There are some pretty key differences/corrections though...
You stop it you!

If I keep reading your posts, I'll be buying a new receiver.
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post #8852 of 8858 Old Today, 10:24 AM
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Hopefully my refurb 4520 will last me four years. That should be plenty of time for Dolby Atmos to mature. Then I can pick up a new receiver.

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post #8853 of 8858 Old Today, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
There are some pretty key differences/corrections though...

Neo:X is primarily a surround expansion algorithm, it's not a discrete content delivery system. It's not a cinema technology either, it's just for surround expansion (matrixed) at home. So there is not a stream of Neo:X mastered content ready to be translated from cinema to home. If a studio wants to create a "discrete" Neo:X mix they have to intentionally take the time to create the matrix encoded mix for home.

Atmos on the other hand IS a cinema delivery system, and is already gaining wide acceptance in the pro film industry. The adoption rate for Atmos in cinemas has been faster for that of 5.1 digital back in the day, and many mixing studios are investing in the object based mixing hardware. There are going to be a LOT of object based film mixes in Cinema, and the scalability of an object based system like Atmos means it's relatively easy to package that for home delivery within existing Dolby Digital codecs. So the lack of "discrete content" for Neo:X really has zero bearing on the prospects for content with native Atmos soundtracks. Within a year (probably a few months really) there will be far more options for Atmos content at home then there will ever be for "native" Neo:X.

In that respect, it's much more analagous to 3D than Audyssey DSX or Neo:X in terms of how quickly adoption in cinema will spur the quick availability of content and hardware for the home user.

Also, DTS is not a "mastering" format, DTS-HD is a compression codec. Whether a studio choose to deliver a Blu-ray in DTS vs. Dolby TrueHD has no impact on the mastering or sound quality. They just use DTS because it's cheaper and easier (straight from industry pros like FilmMixer who post here). When they are already mastering the Atmos mix for theaters, encoding that particular BD in TrueHD for home delivery is mandatory and they will switch when they want to provide that content.

Finally, with respect to the "niche" aspect, that is definitely true to a degree, but remember that Dolby has thought about this and designed the upward-firing Atmos speakers which will allow anyone who has room for 5.1 to have Atmos (5.1.2 minimum) with no additional footprint. Obviously it's expensive now but within a few years it will trickle down to cheaper receivers and you can be sure companies like Onkyo are going to sell their HTIB setups with Atmos-enabled speakers packaged in. Shoot, Onkyo already has it in their new mid-priced ($500-600) 7ch receivers, it won't be long at all before an $800-1000 Onkyo or Yamaha HTIB setup at Best Buy is going to have upward firing modules built into the front L/R speakers for a simple 5.1.2 setup that will work for any "J6P" 5.1 channel living room buyer.
Whether Atmos makes any difference at all will be determined by how the discrete sound elements within the mixed soundscape, irrespective of specific playback loudspeaker configurations will work out. Its all good and fine that Dolby had made inroads into providing professional theaters another variation of recreating sound effects in a large seating area, but with a typical home theater like yours, I really doubt the differences from a movie with a energetic lossless audio track are going to be singular subpar to anything Dolby Atmos claims to reinvent.

For a long time now, the industry has been selling miniature speakers claiming they yield equivalent audio performance/dispersion to much large speakers we all grew up with. Claiming full range effects with Atmos is iffy IMHO.

Yes being able to mix discrete objects into the sound mix will be more expensive and challenging for all those re-recording mixers, sound designers, editors and sound supervisors, and there is the risk that this will equate to exactly what we all encountered with 3D visuals. But in every instance not necessary superior, more likely to be irritating. We shall see!

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post #8854 of 8858 Old Today, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
Hopefully my refurb 4520 will last me four years. That should be plenty of time for Dolby Atmos to mature. Then I can pick up a new receiver.
You can say the same thing about 2160P@ 50/60 Hz video aka 4K.

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post #8855 of 8858 Old Today, 10:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post
Whether Atmos makes any difference at all will be determined by how the discrete sound elements within the mixed soundscape, irrespective of specific playback loudspeaker configurations will work out. Its all good and fine that Dolby had made inroads into providing professional theaters another variation of recreating sound effects in a large seating area, but with a typical home theater like yours, I really doubt the differences from a movie with a energetic lossless audio track are going to be singular subpar to anything Dolby Atmos claims to reinvent.
Fair enough, but this is the FIRST TIME we have had truly discrete VERTICAL sound elements. Every time some new upmix algorithm comes out (whether horizontal matrixing like PLIIx or vertical matrixing like Neo:X or DSX) there is always the chorus of, "I hate 'fake' channels, call me when there is discrete content up there." Atmos (and the other potential object formats) is really quite different from DSX or Neo:X in this respect as it's the first foray into truly discrete, three dimensional content that frees us from the constraints of specific channel layouts. It is designed to scale to any number of speakers, so if you like those overhead sounds from "Gravity" or whatever and you can throw a couple of speakers in the ceiling, now you can have it at home. And it's not "fake" synthesized/matrix audio. The sound will render where the mixer intended it to.

And I understand the skepticism, but the people who have reported actually HEARING the demos of Atmos at home (whether with in-ceiling or reflected upward-firing speakers) have been uniformly, unanimously impressed by how much better it is. It's not just about having a helicopter fly over your head, from what they've reported it takes the overall 3D immersion and sense of "being there" to a new level. Most have compared it as comparable to the jump from stereo to 5.1.

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post #8856 of 8858 Old Today, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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And, BTW, just to be clear, I am not trying to shove everyone over the cliff of first adoption. I'm certainly not going to (it doesn't really make sense in my room anyway) and if somebody is looking for a good value and won't migrate to Atmos until the dust settles in a couple of years, the 4520CI on its clearance pricing is a GREAT option.

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post #8857 of 8858 Old Today, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Fair enough, but this is the FIRST TIME we have had truly discrete VERTICAL sound elements. Every time some new upmix algorithm comes out (whether horizontal matrixing like PLIIx or vertical matrixing like Neo:X or DSX) there is always the chorus of, "I hate 'fake' channels, call me when there is discrete content up there." Atmos (and the other potential object formats) is really quite different from DSX or Neo:X in this respect as it's the first foray into truly discrete, three dimensional content that frees us from the constraints of specific channel layouts. It is designed to scale to any number of speakers, so if you like those overhead sounds from "Gravity" or whatever and you can throw a couple of speakers in the ceiling, now you can have it at home. And it's not "fake" synthesized/matrix audio. The sound will render where the mixer intended it to.

And I understand the skepticism, but the people who have reported actually HEARING the demos of Atmos at home (whether with in-ceiling or reflected upward-firing speakers) have been uniformly, unanimously impressed by how much better it is. It's not just about having a helicopter fly over your head, from what they've reported it takes the overall 3D immersion and sense of "being there" to a new level. Most have compared it as comparable to the jump from stereo to 5.1.
Always enjoy your posts and insight Batpig.

I just have a real problem with the current speaker marketplace most of what sells out there for consumers to enjoy is positively wretched, so teasing consumers with purchasing more speakers to compensate for poor full range output and dispersion is a double edge sword. Good if Atmos does indeed add discrete vertical channels that improve the audio immersion of one's home theater with these types of speakers, but then if you already using speakers with good vertical dispersion, why would you need separate upwards firing modules in the first place. Oh yeah, I don't want to miss those carefully programmed discrete objects that those sound engineers worked tirelessly on!

Cheers!

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post #8858 of 8858 Old Today, 11:40 AM
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Recently Sound and Vision did a poll to establish the likelihood of people being even keen on Atmos. The results were as follows.

59% 5.1/5.2 channels

30% 7.1/7.2 channels

6% No surround for me. Good old-fashioned 2-channel stereo is all I need.

3% 9.1/9.2 channels

2% 11.1/11.2 or more channels

The point to come away from all this was vast majority of people are not into any system beyond 7.2, which entails no matter how desperate the industry is, your average home theater store will have a rough go convincing anyone on Atmos virtues, over good speakers selected along with room treatments.
Right now a lot folks don't care about Dolby Atmos sound it's alright in the movie theater if your gear sound good with Dolby digital you know you got something sounds good.
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