The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 31 - AVS Forum
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post #901 of 8914 Old 11-12-2012, 08:34 PM
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^ Don,

I don't think this is a technology issue. Recall that the USB-to-Serial interface worked just fine with prior AVR models, e.g. The 4311. There is no reason that it shouldn't work at the same speed on the 4520. My theory continues to be that they have either substituted a slower serial interface chip (don't know why they would do that), or that there is a driver/firmware issue that can be fixed as soon as they are aware of it.

Getting Denon to change their architecture to support a direct USB connection to accommodate the Audyssey Pro kit seems like a pretty unlikely scenario.
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post #902 of 8914 Old 11-12-2012, 11:30 PM
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For anyone else that used the 4311 to program their Harmony remotes, the 4520CI is now in the Harmony database of supported devices.

...
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post #903 of 8914 Old 11-13-2012, 02:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laulau View Post

For anyone else that used the 4311 to program their Harmony remotes, the 4520CI is now in the Harmony database of supported devices.

I noticed that last night. smile.gif

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post #904 of 8914 Old 11-13-2012, 04:09 AM
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Hi all, let me add my thoughts about the serial issue.
Even if the average transfer rate seems to be low, it doesn't mean the serial interface runs at 300 bauds. It could still run at 115200 bauds and be slow. It depends on how the CPU that treats the data is working. For instance, if the AVR's CPU is busy doing something else (writing to flash memory, treating network interrupts, etc), it could very well wait say 1 second before answering to the command it just received. Overall, this will look like the average data transfer speed is very slow on the serial interface, but in reality, the data is actually transferred very quickly on the wire. What ccotenj measured with the HDD software was an actual average transfer rate. It does not tell you at what speed the bits of data are transferred which result in a different interpretation of the baud rate that is wrong.

Now I don't know why the receiver would take a while to process the data and answer to the other end, but then again, I do not know if there is an OS on the AVR and what kind of OS it is (real time OS, full scale OS like Linux, or just a big while loop that processes events in a linear fashion, etc), also maybe they decided to use a slower CPU to save costs for processing data that doesn't need to be real time (like DSP processing would be) although that would be unlikelly as the GUI probably needs a good CPU to run. So overall, maybe all of this is a decision by Denon to save costs or it might be only a big bug with the way they process RS232 data. Also, since this RS232 port is only used for control commands which use only a small amount of data and for the Audyssey Pro calibration which 90% of the users probably do not use or at least will use only once in a while, they might have decided to treat the RS232 port with the lowest priority to maximize the CPU time for other tasks. Who knows what is happening. For sure, the behavior you guys are reporting are not very normal when you compare to the older models, but it might actually be intended to be like this for newer models.

Also, the USB to serial interface that comes with the Pro kit doesn't affect the data transfer rate in any way. What comes out of this is a quasi-perfect emulation of a standard RS232 port. The USB only acts as a bridge and does not affect the transfer speed at all which are controlled by Windows and the software that talks over the serial interface.

So just thought I would clarify this as I work with UARTs every day as an embedded software engineer. Anyway, hope I helped some guys understand what is going on better and I also hope I did not feed your anger about this issue smile.gif

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post #905 of 8914 Old 11-13-2012, 04:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laulau View Post

For anyone else that used the 4311 to program their Harmony remotes, the 4520CI is now in the Harmony database of supported devices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I noticed that last night. smile.gif

Have you guys tried it yet? Do all the commands work OK? Any extra commands that would be useful like InstaPreview or anything that is not actually on the original remote that we would benefit having?
I programmed my Harmony 880 using the 4311 and learned the missing stuff from IR or with Pronto codes. Is it worth it to replace what I did with the real thing?

Thanks

Home Theater: Denon AVR-4520CI, BDP-2010CI, Hitachi 62VS69A, Paradigm Monitor 7 v3, CC-370 v4, ADP-190 v6, Mini-Monitor v4, PW-2200 v2
Living Room: Denon AVR-2807, DVD-1930CI, Samsung LN40B540 40" LCD, Apple-TV, Paradigm Titan Monitor v6, PDR W100
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post #906 of 8914 Old 11-13-2012, 04:29 AM
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@don...

you are always welcome in any thread i am a major participant in... knowledge and rationality should never be ignored... smile.gif especially from someone, ummm, mature enough, to remember using punchcards and teletypes... tongue.gif so stick around, will ya?

re: baud vs. bit rate... baud is signalling rate... dependent on the modulation technique used, this could either represent a single bit, or multiple bits... for example, a modem (for the yutes around here, that's shorthand for modulate/demodulate*) takes multiple bits and "modulates" them into a single pulse (signal)... the data is then transmitted, and "demodulated" on the other end back into individual bits...

since it's using a serial connection (in effect, a "direct" connection) i'm assuming (and we know what happens when you do that tongue.gif ) that there is no modulation involved and it's a simple 1 to 1 correlation, which is where i got my number from... each bit represents an unique signal, 8 bits per byte...

this makes my head hurt so early in the morning... i haven't thought about this stuff in years, and some of it is a bit fuzzy, which means i'm no doubt leaving out some detail here... redface.gif

* for the video dorks, think qam....

edit: @kaphely... i don't disagree with any of what you posted... smile.gif there are many things that could cause the effective signalling rate to appear to be far less than the actual... i don't think it's a cpu priority issue though, as when you are running pro (or any audyssey routines), the avr has nothing else to do, it's completely dedicated to the calibration at that point....

second edit: welcome, btw. always good to have another geek around... biggrin.gif

thinking...

- chris

 

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post #907 of 8914 Old 11-13-2012, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

@don...
you are always welcome in any thread i am a major participant in...

can I play too wink.gifbiggrin.gif

some of you guys are so much more "advanced" & my next step is to actually do measurements eek.gif a novel idea for me anyway tongue.gifwink.gif

the past month I've bought & installed speakers for height channels to my setup, so paying off that bill 1st. and still evaluating the effect.

But next purchase - Omnimic. Then we'll see how much I really know eek.gif I do expect I'll be posting here for answers to what I'm looking at 'cause hardly anyone in Pio threads has really taken this next step.

Steve
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post #908 of 8914 Old 11-13-2012, 04:47 AM
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^^^

of course... more knowledge is never a bad thing, and you've got plenty to share... even if we haven't brought you over to the dark side... yet... tongue.gif

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

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post #909 of 8914 Old 11-13-2012, 07:09 AM
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joerod, is the review out yet?
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post #910 of 8914 Old 11-13-2012, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

^ Don,

I don't think this is a technology issue. Recall that the USB-to-Serial interface worked just fine with prior AVR models, e.g. The 4311. There is no reason that it shouldn't work at the same speed on the 4520. My theory continues to be that they have either substituted a slower serial interface chip (don't know why they would do that), or that there is a driver/firmware issue that can be fixed as soon as they are aware of it.

Getting Denon to change their architecture to support a direct USB connection to accommodate the Audyssey Pro kit seems like a pretty unlikely scenario.

Thanks!

I agree on your last point.

On the first, I did not recall that, comes from jumping into the middle of the discussion, sorry. This is only during Audyssey runs? I would be with you that it is likely a FW issue, but could be a little challenging to fix. It may be they have dedicated the processor to running Audyssey and have moved servicing serial polling/interrupts to the back of the line so latency is huge. It may not be the same team that did the 4311's interface, or they might have been driven by other constraints (faster/more power to Audyssey), or just made a mistake (no!) Since it is easier to reuse components I doubt they would have downgraded the UART chip. Could be something as simple as a miswired clock or misprogrammed clock register. Hopefully after this trickles through somebody at Denon has a "duh!" moment and a patch is released...


@Chris -- Thanks, I'll try to be good. "Symbol", not "signal"... Baud (the term or the man) refers to a single unit of information called a symbol IIRC. For old ASCII text, 8 bits (actually 7) is a symbol. Since I am an analog guy, to get away from getting mixed up I usually just stick with the raw bit rate (bits or bytes per second, whatever) for comparisons. The RS-232 serial standard does not include any sort of special modulation, just 1's and 0's flying by in order.

Now I am curious if the rate was the same on the 4311, aren't you sorry you dumped it already? smile.gif

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #911 of 8914 Old 11-13-2012, 11:36 AM
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^^^

yea, symbol would be more technically correct... the telecom part of my brain (which is why i was thinking of signalling) sometimes leaks into places where it doesn't belong... redface.gif hey, i was still on my first cup of coffee... biggrin.gif

someone will pick up the ball and try it with a 4311... smile.gif

- chris

 

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http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #912 of 8914 Old 11-13-2012, 11:44 AM
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Lunchtime here, time to switch to Scotch... smile.gif

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #913 of 8914 Old 11-13-2012, 11:58 AM
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^^^

i knew there was a reason i liked you so much... tongue.gif

as long as we are on the topic of serial communications... good news for anyone using rs-232 for control, all the commands that worked on the 4311 work on the 4520... nice of them not to change that... just need to add in the ones for whatever new features on the 4520 you are using...

also, i seriously stress tested mine last night... was not able to put it into protection (i was sitting in another room while doing this, i didn't want to blast my eardrums out)... it seems to have enough power for my needs (not that i didn't think it would)...

instapreview test tonight, if i get the wiring done...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #914 of 8914 Old 11-13-2012, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laulau View Post

For anyone else that used the 4311 to program their Harmony remotes, the 4520CI is now in the Harmony database of supported devices.
Any real advantage?
I want those "quick select" buttons, and I have programmed my Logitech 700 with them, so unless there is a real value add, I prefer to keep status quo...
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post #915 of 8914 Old 11-13-2012, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
yea, symbol would be more technically correct... the telecom part of my brain (which is why i was thinking of signalling) sometimes leaks into places where it doesn't belong... redface.gif hey, i was still on my first cup of coffee... biggrin.gif
someone will pick up the ball and try it with a 4311... smile.gif

I still have my 4311. I downloaded the measurement software, but haven't had a chance to test it out yet. If you agree, I would prefer to wait a couple more days to see if I get a response from Denon.
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post #916 of 8914 Old 11-13-2012, 12:54 PM
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^^^

yea, that's cool... let's see what they have to say...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

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post #917 of 8914 Old 11-13-2012, 03:40 PM
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Finally finished reading this entire thread and I am glad to hear that the initial impressions of this unit are all positive.

I am on my THIRD Onkyo PR-SC5508 since April and Onkyo is considering replacing it with the 5509. The 5508, when it worked, was a great pre-amp...except for the clicking. Since the third one went down, my buddy brought over his 3313 for me to use and I have been inpressed with the looks, performance and features. It has also allowed me to realize that I can't tell the difference between XLR and RCA cables. My run is only 1.5 feet, which might be why.

The one feature the 3313 didn't have that I liked in the 5508 was the ability to calibrate two different subs. I also feel the XT32 brings enough to the table to make it worth the extra money.

I am leaning towards selling the 5509(if they replace it) and picking up the 4520 to use as just a preamp. Just need to figure out if it will fit nicely in my Audio rack like the 5508 did.

Anybody else using this as just a preamp?
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post #918 of 8914 Old 11-13-2012, 04:01 PM
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I sent an email to Logitech along with the hex codes for a few of the missing remote codes asking if they can add them to my Denon 4520 device on my Harmony One remote, and got a reply back that since my remote is more than 90 days old, I would need to pay $29 per incident if I wanted them to look into it further.

I am hoping there is an easy way to get those codes into the Harmony, perhaps using my One for All remote or my MX-500.
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post #919 of 8914 Old 11-13-2012, 04:05 PM
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I am not sure, but did not think I got a reply to my question a couple days ago about whether I will be able to use the pandora, spotify and airpay on my 4520 using the component video out to my TV, which does not have HDMI inputs.

I will probably be upgrading my TV at some point this year, but wanted to upgrade the receiver first.

Thanks.
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post #920 of 8914 Old 11-13-2012, 04:34 PM
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There is no HDMI--> component output down conversion, so not with HDMI inputs; however, although the 4520CI manual indicates it must be HDMI output with inputs upscaled to 4k it says nothing about 1080p or lower resolution sources ....




as it does indicate in the XX13 model manuals that "only HDMI output" will display the GUI/menu regardless of the resolution.





Edit: GUI/Menu confirmed to work with analog sources over component video output.

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post #921 of 8914 Old 11-13-2012, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tachy View Post

I sent an email to Logitech along with the hex codes for a few of the missing remote codes asking if they can add them to my Denon 4520 device on my Harmony One remote, and got a reply back that since my remote is more than 90 days old, I would need to pay $29 per incident if I wanted them to look into it further.

I am hoping there is an easy way to get those codes into the Harmony, perhaps using my One for All remote or my MX-500.

You can definitely do it yourself. Either use the HexToHarmony tool, see this post: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1430049/the-official-denon-avr-4520ci-thread/750#post_22560487

Or you can use your URC remote to learn the pronto commands and then teach it to your Harmony. See this post on my website: http://batpigworld.com/wp/?p=106

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post #922 of 8914 Old 11-14-2012, 03:30 AM
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I am looking at the Denon 4520CI to match my Kef Q series. Would denon considered to be a good match sonically for the Kef?

cheers
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post #923 of 8914 Old 11-14-2012, 05:19 AM
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^^^

there's no reason why it shouldn't be... like any competently designed piece of equipment (which starts at a very low price level), the output from the avr falls well within the audibly "flat" range...

don't buy into the "warm/bright/etc." stuff about modern ss equipment... those distinctions simply don't exist... if they did, they would be easily seen on a frequency response graph...
kelseyhorne likes this.

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #924 of 8914 Old 11-14-2012, 11:27 AM
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Just put my order in for a new 4520:D. I had a 4311, which I purchased used, was never able to use(other than to test) and sold it while the getting was still good. I had every intention of buying the Integra DHC 80.3, but couldn't get the price I wanted on one. It seems to me that I should expect the 4520 to be every bit as good as the 80.3 and have built in amps if I ever need to use them (I currently have an Outlaw 7500). If the 4520 does the job power wise, I may just sell the outlaw to recoup some costs or move it to the dedicated room.
I am using it with Revel f12, c12, s12 combo, and will report back my impressions once it comes(should be before thanksgiving).
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post #925 of 8914 Old 11-14-2012, 11:58 AM
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Would be curious if you did and A/B between the outlaw power and the internal amps of the 4520 with the Revels to see if you hear any noticeable difference
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post #926 of 8914 Old 11-14-2012, 02:01 PM
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Would be curious if you did and A/B between the outlaw power and the internal amps of the 4520 with the Revels to see if you hear any noticeable difference

That is the plan. The outlaw, by spec, should have double the power to the Revels. They are 6ohm speakers with 3.7 min I think. I will probably have time this weekend, or over the Holiday and will report back.
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post #927 of 8914 Old 11-14-2012, 02:02 PM
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joerod, is the review out yet?

Soon. smile.gif

At work now.

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post #928 of 8914 Old 11-14-2012, 05:07 PM
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So I got my 4520 thru today from AVS (thanks again Mike!), but i'm noticing something odd which I hope isn't a problem with the amp, rather something i've done or setup wrong.

I've got the 4520 all setup now for 11.1 (9.1 with the front highs pre-out'd to another power amp), ran thru all of the Aud. cailbration, and all the input setup done thru the GUI nice and smoothly.

I've put most of the inputs to NEO:X to use the 11 channels - in case that is a cause of the problem.

But the volume level seems really low out of the amp - significantly lower than my old 3806 was! Watching Cable TV from my Tivo I have to have the volume up at 50+ for a comfortable listening level - and I'm not one for needing a crazy high volume level.

When I tried to push the new setup with some blu-rays (or airplay or any input), to see how the 11 channels sound , I was having to push the volume past 65 to get any real volume, and then the amp started to shut itself off - the power light starts flashing red, and until it goes back to a solid red light I cannot turn it back on again,

Anyone got an idea on this issue, or am I going to be needing to get an RMA number and send the unit back?


-David
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post #929 of 8914 Old 11-14-2012, 10:29 PM
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Not sure if adjusting the "source levels" on page 137 of the manual would help. I know after I rewired my 4806 and switched some inputs I had to make quite a few adjustments to these.

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post #930 of 8914 Old 11-14-2012, 11:22 PM
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In addition to source level, check channel levels...did you run Audyssey? If so, where does Audyssey have the channel levels set at?
I would also suggest changing the volume display from "absolute" (0-99) to "relative"
(-80dB - 18 dB) in the 4520's option menu. (absolute is the new default, used to be the other way around...) Report back with your channel level info and at what master volume your AVR is going into protect mode ( -10 dB?
0 dB? 5 dB? -20 dB?)
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